Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Krysco]

Off topic of Bayonetta a moment (slightly), I am trying to figure out what moves characters have to lock, but surprisingly, I am drawing a blank with my most used characters...

Can anybody advise which moves these characters have that can lock after a missed tech?

- not sure.
- pretty sure sour Dair can lock (old Jab 1 used to be able too as well). Anyhting else?
- not sure.
- Uncharged Paralyzer can lock if I recall correctly...?
- Sour Nair perhaps? What about Jabs? Turnips I assume?
- Jab 1 if I recall? What about homing missile, bomb and uncharged Charge Shot?

Much appreciated!

Of the characters you listed, I'm pretty sure Peach's sour nair and bair can, I know Mr. Saturn can until really high percents when it starts to meteor grounded opponents (guess it always does that but at high percents it starts popping them up off the ground unless they tech it), I don't believe turnips can, Samus homing missiles, bombs and uncharged charge shots do as does the dair which was mentioned above. Not too sure with any of the other characters though it does get me curious about my own characters locking moves.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Off topic of Bayonetta a moment (slightly), I am trying to figure out what moves characters have to lock, but surprisingly, I am drawing a blank with my most used characters...

Can anybody advise which moves these characters have that can lock after a missed tech?

- not sure.
- pretty sure sour Dair can lock (old Jab 1 used to be able too as well). Anyhting else?
- not sure.
- Uncharged Paralyzer can lock if I recall correctly...?
- Sour Nair perhaps? What about Jabs? Turnips I assume?
- Jab 1 if I recall? What about homing missile, bomb and uncharged Charge Shot?

Much appreciated!

Marth's fair below like 4% on heavies can lock
The spike hitbox of Marth's dair will lock, not just the sourspot but it stops working at around 30%, add another 20% and you can loop dair spike > footstool > db 1

 

[ARISTOS]

Off topic of Bayonetta a moment (slightly), I am trying to figure out what moves characters have to lock, but surprisingly, I am drawing a blank with my most used characters...

Can anybody advise which moves these characters have that can lock after a missed tech?

- not sure.
- pretty sure sour Dair can lock (old Jab 1 used to be able too as well). Anyhting else?
- not sure.
- Uncharged Paralyzer can lock if I recall correctly...?
- Sour Nair perhaps? What about Jabs? Turnips I assume?
- Jab 1 if I recall? What about homing missile, bomb and uncharged Charge Shot?

Much appreciated!

late Nair and late Bair will both lock, jab hits too high and turnips do too much damage.

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Anti/status/854527131291971584

ANTi is now officially a main.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Good for him.

Making NJ proud.

 

[|RK|]

I want characters to be strong. And I want people to die for being stupid.

Not enough people dying for being idiots in this game.

Considering your background in traditional FGs, makes sense. Incidentally, doesn't Ryu exemplify that already? If many top players are losing because they make mistakes against characters like Ryu, isn't that enough?

Or are you more interested in people playing to literal perfection, and Ryu is too lenient in your view?

 

[Rizen]

I want characters to be strong. And I want people to die for being stupid.

Not enough people dying for being idiots in this game.

SSB 64 sounds right up your alley. That game is brutal.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Ryu relies on your opponent being bad if they're playing a better character. Which is prolly why he doesn't have much faith in him.

 

[Minordeth]

Good for Salem, I guess, but top players still don't DI ZSS' ladder consistently. No kill like overkill.

 

[Rizen]

Ryu relies on your opponent being bad if they're playing a better character.

^Doesn't that apply to every bad MU in the game? Ryu has an insane punish game and confirms into kills.

Neutral is very important but in SSB4 risk/reward ratio, advantage and disadvantage hold significant weight. Unless you're a character like Brawl MK or Falco, you're not winning neutral with 100% consistency without a huge gap in skill level. Then it's down to how much you wreck or get wrecked before starting the process over.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

^Doesn't that apply to every bad MU in the game?

No sir, you just have to work harder than your opponent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

SSB 64 sounds right up your alley. That game is brutal.

I like the game.

But Z cancelling is a ****ing abomination from a game design point of view.

 

[blackghost]

According to Zack, Salem, and Pink her MU chart looks exactly like what a 'best' characters would look like.

It's pretty much agrees she can bully many lower or mid tiers but against other top tiers she's considered to clearly win? Really? Bayo now clearly beats shiek, diddy, Rosa, and others? Not to mention there's multiple mid tiers like Ness, tink, and Lucas that don't struggle against her.

A lot of what bayo does when I watch match analysis is based off exploiting fear and misinformation people believe. Whether that's abk at the ledge, proper di, or not punishing her correctly.

Personally I think the major difference with some players like void, zero, exam, and dabuz is that they've spent significantly more time in the lab learning the matchup. Especially void.
I don't think bayo is the clear one because she cannot universally force her game in all mus. She isn't fast enough and her neutral is too weak. When I think of clear number one characters I think of zero in marvel, street fighter 4 Sagat, brawl mk, and Fox. I don't think she can always force her gameplan and due to mechanics of smash with di and sdi she isn't guaranteed to profit off her hits.

Yes she's an elite character but results don't back it up and I feel people are placing her view projections where they think she'll go as opposed to where she is.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You said Sagat, but you meant Seth right?

 

[RonNewcomb]

You said Sagat, but you meant Seth right?

No, he meant Sagat. Vanilla SF4 Sagat was bonkers.

Relatedly, the reason tiers go S A B C is because of Old Sagat in Super Turbo. S-tier got its name from being literally Sagat-tier.

I do not think Smash 4 has anyone in S-tier. No one's that good. Post-patches, anyway.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

It's pretty much agrees she can bully many lower or mid tiers but against other top tiers she's considered to clearly win? Really? Bayo now clearly beats shiek, diddy, Rosa, and others? Not to mention there's multiple mid tiers like Ness, tink, and Lucas that don't struggle against her.

A lot of what bayo does when I watch match analysis is based off exploiting fear and misinformation people believe. Whether that's abk at the ledge, proper di, or not punishing her correctly.

Personally I think the major difference with some players like void, zero, exam, and dabuz is that they've spent significantly more time in the lab learning the matchup. Especially void.
I don't think bayo is the clear one because she cannot universally force her game in all mus. She isn't fast enough and her neutral is too weak. When I think of clear number one characters I think of zero in marvel, street fighter 4 Sagat, brawl mk, and Fox. I don't think she can always force her gameplan and due to mechanics of smash with di and sdi she isn't guaranteed to profit off her hits.

Yes she's an elite character but results don't back it up and I feel people are placing her view projections where they think she'll go as opposed to where she is.

To be fair having people just getting better at certian MU's and catching on player habits doest just apply to Bayonetta.

Lots of players are taking sets or holding their own against ZeRo because they are punishing monkey flips and other unsafe Diddy stuff is one example.
Part of the reason ZeRo gets away with all of that so often to is also due to invoking fear and conditioning the opponent

Bayo is also hardly the only top tier that has have characters lower on the tier list..or at least not considered Top tier that do prety decent or even win the MU


Cloud has Bowser /Charizard

Diddy has Luigi, MM and possibly Olimar

Mario has Corrin and DK

Fox has Kirby

Rosalina has MK

Sheik has possibly Lucario

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bonkers till people figured out vortex.

Seth and also Gouki as well had insane oki. They also had teleports to deal with bad situations.

Gouki also had a combo loop that worked the easiest on Sagat. And Sagat could not control or zone either character. Sagat was top 3. He was not better then them.

Hmmm. Crazy advantage and strong disadvantage. Super strong neutral.

I suppose in the end the recipe for a top tier never actually changes.

Also in ST I could argue that Balrog and Sim are stronger characters.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

To be fair having people just getting better at certian MU's and catching on player habits doest just apply to Bayonetta.

Lots of players are taking sets or holding their own against ZeRo because they are punishing monkey flips and other unsafe Diddy stuff is one example.
Part of the reason ZeRo gets away with all of that so often to is also due to invoking fear and conditioning the opponent

Bayo is also hardly the only top tier that has have characters lower on the tier list..or at least not considered Top tier that do prety decent or even win the MU


Cloud has Bowser /Charizard

Diddy has Luigi, MM and possibly Olimar

Mario has Corrin and DK

Fox has Kirby

Rosalina has MK

Sheik has possibly Lucario

Debatably also characters like Palutena, Yoshi, and Luigi for Mario.

 

[Y2Kay]

Whether the game is brutally punishing or not doesn't matter to me. All I ask is that it's consistent amongst the cast. That's why games like marvel vs capcom 3 are still really fun to play.

If there's any game that's taught me discipline, it's marvel. (Fighting games in general require discipline to become good at though)

 

[HoSmash4]

To be fair having people just getting better at certian MU's and catching on player habits doest just apply to Bayonetta.

Lots of players are taking sets or holding their own against ZeRo because they are punishing monkey flips and other unsafe Diddy stuff is one example.
Part of the reason ZeRo gets away with all of that so often to is also due to invoking fear and conditioning the opponent

Bayo is also hardly the only top tier that has have characters lower on the tier list..or at least not considered Top tier that do prety decent or even win the MU


Cloud has Bowser /Charizard

Diddy has Luigi, MM and possibly Olimar

Mario has Corrin and DK

Fox has Kirby

Rosalina has MK

Sheik has possibly Lucario

Bayo has Ness

 

[NotLiquid]

re: Anti's player tier list, I don't see the rationale of Ally being worse than Mr. R, granted Ally's tournament attendance in comparison to most of the top professional players is somewhat lopsided so it's hard to say where he lands. He's a real wild card when he shows up.

Off topic of Bayonetta a moment (slightly), I am trying to figure out what moves characters have to lock, but surprisingly, I am drawing a blank with my most used characters...

Can anybody advise which moves these characters have that can lock after a missed tech?

- not sure.
- pretty sure sour Dair can lock (old Jab 1 used to be able too as well). Anyhting else?
- not sure.
- Uncharged Paralyzer can lock if I recall correctly...?
- Sour Nair perhaps? What about Jabs? Turnips I assume?
- Jab 1 if I recall? What about homing missile, bomb and uncharged Charge Shot?

Much appreciated!

Might be wrong on this, seemed to accidentally do this at local friendlies a week ago, but can lock from a falling Bulet Climax if the opponent is on a platform. Problem is it is so ridiculously impractical that it doesn't lead to anything.

 

[Yikarur]

Was about Bayonetta and Toon Link?
She really looks disadvantaged in that MU tbh

 

[DunnoBro]

One thing I will say about Bayonetta is that people don't know how to ledgeguard her at all

NEVER leave the option to divekick cross up open. And be in a good spot to punish ledge jump. ZeRo uses peanuts, Mr. R uses needles at the usmash point, Esam jolts, Luigis fireball. Her standard and roll are garbage, even if you can't immediately punish her standard get-up, her regular roll is so bad she's easy to pin to the ledge.

Sure, you can try reading the divekick but you're taking 20-50% if not your stock for reading wrong. (Bair, witch time, combos, edgeguard) It'd be far easier to guess her ledge jump timing, and if you guess wrong her roll/standard are bad enough you can still just react and punish them.

I even see Anti just sitting on the lip of the ledge in shield as if she'll actually standard or roll.

Divekick is dumb but you're fighting a losing battle if you don't respect it.

 

[Lord Dio]

Well, good luck to ANTi with Sheik, hope it goes well.
Very interested on whatever it is Salem's preparing to show off. If you can't DI or SDI, you better have tested it with an opponent SDI'ing, done with every direction, a large quantity of times.
Still, I have doubts that it's a "perfect" death combo. Bound to be a flaw somewhere. Depending on whether the opponent needs to be on the ground or not, I may have already thought of a way to get past it.

 

[FeelMeUp]

sheik can powershield> tipper usmash divekick if you're expecting it. i haven't tested to see if it's possible on reaction, but i wouldn't be surprised if it is. best way to to ledgetrabayo is to treat divekick as a pseudo command grab with triple the reward imo.

this is the correct spacing. i
t's the same way i ledgetrap falcon, mario, mewtwo, dk, and sometimes bowser because it's outside of most getup attack ranges and is within the window where i can react to almost everything they choose.

sorta tricky against people with bigger hitboxes on getup attacks like m2 and marth, though.

 

[DunnoBro]

sheik can powershield> tipper usmash divekick if you're expecting it. i haven't tested to see if it's possible on reaction, but i wouldn't be surprised if it is. best way to to ledgetrabayo is to treat divekick as a pseudo command grab with triple the reward imo.
View attachment 128213
this is the correct spacing. i
t's the same way i ledgetrap falcon, mario, mewtwo, dk, and sometimes bowser because it's outside of most getup attack ranges and is within the window where i can react to almost everything they choose.
View attachment 128214
sorta tricky against people with bigger hitboxes on getup attacks like m2 and marth, though.

Well if you get the powershield it's clearly reactable, though a regular shield means she can witch time (and probably should since even fully charged side hits won't kill too great) So preemptive usmashes have their benefits too (particularly if you're a bit further back, so you can usmash the foot and not get hit)

It's optimal vs falcon, mario, and dk for sure but not so much mewtwo imo since a ledge jump airdodge >fair/nair, or rising nair puts a lot of pressure on sheik at this position, and generates SOOOO much reward. Sheik wants to be a bit further back, so she can fair both the jump and outward airdodge (or bf if suspecting a lot of drift), being out of range for the wakeup fair, and usmash an inward airdodge.

M2 is like bayo, except instead of a bad roll he has a bad jump. So just being in the best position to challenge his ledge jump feels optimal to me, since punishing roll or standard is very easy even at a distance vs him. as opposed to Falcon, DK, or mario who have better and more rewarding grounded options.

I'm not a sheik main, and both Void and Mr. R don't seem to utilize this theory in the examples vs M2 I can see, so I could very well be wrong.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Well if you get the powershield it's clearly reactable, though a regular shield means she can witch time (and probably should since even fully charged side hits won't kill too great) So preemptive usmashes have their benefits too (particularly if you're a bit further back, so you can usmash the foot and not get hit)

Moreso talking about whether you can react to them dropping off and instant divekicking back towards you. If it's reactable then you can PS usmash her every time she does it.

It's optimal vs falcon, mario, and dk for sure but not so much mewtwo imo since a ledge jump airdodge >fair/nair, or rising nair puts a lot of pressure on sheik at this position, and generates SOOOO much reward. Sheik wants to be a bit further back, so she can fair both the jump and outward airdodge (or bf if suspecting a lot of drift), being out of range for the wakeup fair, and usmash an inward airdodge.

at this range you can FOR SURE react to mewtwo dropping off the ledge. every time he does so you should immediately walk back, as he has nothing that can threaten you or not get punished for him doing so. the only thing he could possibly use as a mixup is that shadowball landing thing, but even then he's fully cornered vs sheik and pushing him back becomes trivial. besides, i'm moreso showing this to reveal that you can indeed stand outside of each char's getup attack range and ftilt or bair any option they choose on reaction. ofc, the thing that makes it so powerful is conditioning with trumps and fake trumps beforehand.

 

[Thinkaman]

A bit late but high-level thoughts on Duck Hunt:

• Raito is best dog, king of the Big 3. He just is, sorry guys.
• I know I've been saying that Duck Hunt is a not-bad character for what feels like eons now, but that doesn't make it less true.
• Duck Hunts faults are surface-level--not quite superficial, but obvious. Like he's got a bad recovery, selectively poor frame data (like on OoS), and some multi-hit stuff can drop. But okay, that's the end of it. It just is what it is.
• Duck Hunt's strengths are all applicable to top level play. Good grabs, spot-dodges, and uairs never go out of style.
• He has a solid neutral and the possibility to zone more or less anyone. No one shuts him down, not even Rosa or Villager.

Duck Hunt is the opposite of Bowser Jr: The higher the level of play, the more his complicated tricks actually matter. This is because everything DH does is neutral relevant.

Curiously enough, for completely different reasons, Marth is probably in a similar relationship with the meta.

 

[Aaron1997]

• Raito is best dog, king of the Big 3. He just is, sorry guys.

The more I think about this, the more I agree. Out of all 3 of them, Raito screams "Top Player" More then You3/Brood. Raito seems to have the best fundamentals, Neutral and just knows the game better then Brood/You3 do.

No one shuts him down, not even Rosa or Villager.

Have you seen vs ? Bullet arts completely stop his Can from even working correctly.

Also, Mr.R Tier list Incoming


https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/854870813492731907

Not the best.
To high again. (Corrin Debate incoming)
>
Not as high as I though they would considering Ramin has been telling people these have been slept on and their recent results.
To low
Tea Knocked some sense into him. I can't see Pac at bottom 2 like he had him before
2nd worst character

Edit: I CAN'T READ

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Edit I can't read either lmao

Palu is probably still bottom ten tho

 

[ARGHETH]

B and C tier aren't ordered, guys.

 

[TDK]

Surely Jiggs isn't that bad.

 

[Locke 06]

As a different zoner, both PAC/DH need to setup and keeping them from doing so is really important, as opposed to villager/megaman who don't need to setup (although metal blade/lloid helps create traps).

Nobody stopped or punished FH can>landing aerial when fighting raito. And I think that was a large part of his success as Duck Hunt and why he always seemed to be in control in neutral.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The more I think about this, the more I agree. Out of all 3 of them, Raito screams "Top Player" More then You3/Brood. Raito seems to have the best fundamentals, Neutral and just knows the game better then Brood/You3 do.



Have you seen vs ? Bullet arts completely stop his Can from even working correctly.

Also, Mr.R Tier list Incoming


https://twitter.com/Mr_RSmash/status/854870813492731907

View attachment 128223




Not the best.
To high again. (Corrin Debate incoming)
>
Not as high as I though they would considering Ramin has been telling people these have been slept on and their recent results.
To low
Tea Knocked some sense into him. I can't see Pac at bottom 2 like he had him before
2nd worst character

Edit: I CAN'T READ

I find I agree with quite a bit of his list. Like, the only thing I'd say I'd move for sure outside of maybe the order of the top 4 is Meta Knight and I guess bumping Greninja down right behind Falcon (Falcon's just a little better imo to barely squeeze past greninja, or at least is a little more meta relevant).

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Can I add that I agree with Zard's placement on the last two tier lists that were up? He doesn't feel low tier (especially with his value as a Cloud CP) but he also doesn't feel like he has all the tools to get to mid-tier AS OF YET.
Unless zard has some move combo that he can utilize into a vicious kill confirm I think lower-mid is his proper placement unless he can find some way to get to DK/Bowser's level.

 

[DunnoBro]

Moreso talking about whether you can react to them dropping off and instant divekicking back towards you. If it's reactable then you can PS usmash her every time she does it.

at this range you can FOR SURE react to mewtwo dropping off the ledge. every time he does so you should immediately walk back, as he has nothing that can threaten you or not get punished for him doing so. the only thing he could possibly use as a mixup is that shadowball landing thing, but even then he's fully cornered vs sheik and pushing him back becomes trivial. besides, i'm moreso showing this to reveal that you can indeed stand outside of each char's getup attack range and ftilt or bair any option they choose on reaction. ofc, the thing that makes it so powerful is conditioning with trumps and fake trumps beforehand.

It is dumb how sheik can essentially guess one option then just ftilt the others

As a different zoner, both PAC/DH need to setup and keeping them from doing so is really important, as opposed to villager/megaman who don't need to setup (although metal blade/lloid helps create traps).

Nobody stopped or punished FH can>landing aerial when fighting raito. And I think that was a large part of his success as Duck Hunt and why he always seemed to be in control in neutral.

FH Can > Fair isn't all he did though
He also did FH Can > Gunmen/frisbee or empty land grab.

Like you can react, but unless you got diddy/marth fair you're probably just both gonna get hit by can at best. It's a mix-up, and softhit fair combos hard, even kill confirming.

And you can grab him for fairing your shield, but the can will save him and no one wants to deal with the kamikaze BS duck hunt can do. (if he has the lead you can easily die)

Duck hunt's neutral relies heavily on full hop, and spaced specials. Which is really hard to do on default controls, possibly why he FEELS so bad to most players.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Surely Jiggs isn't that bad.

Jiggs is that bad, frankly.

Jiggs has awful neutral, awful advantage, several moves that are practically useless and a super low weight.

Only things she has going for her are okay disadvantage, decent recovery and Rest and those things aren't good enough to compensate.

Other low tiers like Zelda, Ganondorf and Dedede at least have one or two things they can use in neutral and have advantages that hurt with some reliable kill moves.

Jiggs has almost nothing going for her.

 

[FeelMeUp]

jiggs has okay matchups vs at least 3 relevant and commonly used top tiers. that's better than ddd, ganon and zelda can say. it's the main reason i don't believe she could be the worst character in the game. when i play jiggs, i feel like i'm using a piece of ****.
but it's a WORKABLE piece of **** vs a portion of the roster
when i'm using zelda, ddd, ganon, or pacman i wonder why i even hovered over them on the CSS in the first place.

 

[DunnoBro]

Have you seen vs ? Bullet arts completely stop his Can from even working correctly.
D

Bullet arts are meh. Duck hunt can hit the can back, plus frisbee is a free punish and it kill confirms bayo good.

Real issue is heelslide, singlehandedly tears down his zone and sets up a combo. It beats out can, frisbee, gunmen, everything, and he has to always keep moving. He isn't a character that can just wait for her to heelslide and punish it.

 

[The-Technique]

It is dumb how sheik can essentially guess one option then just ftilt the others



FH Can > Fair isn't all he did though
He also did FH Can > Gunmen/frisbee or empty land grab.

Like you can react, but unless you got diddy/marth fair you're probably just both gonna get hit by can at best. It's a mix-up, and softhit fair combos hard, even kill confirming.

And you can grab him for fairing your shield, but the can will save him and no one wants to deal with the kamikaze BS duck hunt can do. (if he has the lead you can easily die)

Duck hunt's neutral relies heavily on full hop, and spaced specials. Which is really hard to do on default controls, possibly why he FEELS so bad to most players.

what's the optimal control scheme for duck hunt?