Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Yonder]

Solid list for the most part, but personally I wouldn't place Abadango in top 10 given his somewhat lackluster placings as of lately. Maybe VoiD as 10th?

I guess maybe he took into account that although Aba doesn't place high, he doesn't really have any notable bad placing like Zero's 69th or Nairo's 128th. Idk. His worst is like...12th. he never fails to make top 8 at the biggest showings so it probably counts for something.

 

[Rizen]

BTW ANTI recently tweeted hus own personal list of the current top 10 Smash 4 players currently taking in results and overall skill.

He made several changes so I will just put the final list

1. ZeRo
2. Dabuz
3. Nario
4. MKLeo
5. Mr.R
6. Ally
7. Abadango
8. Komokiri
9. Captian Zack
10. Marss

Note. Larry Lurr and Void where his other potential choices for #10. But ANTi decided to go with Marss at the end


So what does anyone think of ANTI'S picks?

No Salem? I would have included Larry too.

 

[BunbUn129]

I guess maybe he took into account that although Aba doesn't place high, he doesn't really have any notable bad placing like Zero's 69th or Nairo's 128th. Idk. His worst is like...12th. he never fails to make top 8 at the biggest showings so it probably counts for something.

Aba's worst placing is 49th at Genesis 3.

 

[sleepy_Nex]

And in the case of Falcon, I think there's a fairly good explanation for this - People love playing Falcon. So therefore Falcon has more people giving him a chance compared to most other characters, thus he punches above his weight in terms of results.

Iron Kraken You can't just argue that bayo is the best character even tough she didn't won something meaningful yet (and regulary fails to get top8 at something meaningful lol) because she does have many results and say Falcon only gets results because of his Playerbase and rate him that low.

Bayo's Highlevel Playerbase is extremely huge.

 

[|RK|]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[Monete]

Aba's worst placing is 49th at Genesis 3.

Not relevant in the current meta also more than 1 year ago.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Not relevant in the current meta also more than 1 year ago.

The same could be said for Nairos placement at Pound.

 

[TDK]

Nairo was at least using the same characters. I wouldn't count anything from pre-1.16 though.

Also, MSM 94 (100 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Zenyou
2nd: Elegant
3rd: Charliedaking
4th: EonWave

 

[Iron Kraken]

Iron Kraken You can't just argue that bayo is the best character even tough she didn't won something meaningful yet (and regulary fails to get top8 at something meaningful lol) because she does have many results and say Falcon only gets results because of his Playerbase and rate him that low.

Bayo's Highlevel Playerbase is extremely huge.

I'll explain myself yet again - I take results into account when making my tier list, but they are not the be all, end all. Fundamentally, the reason I have Bayo at #1 and Falcon at #25 on my personal tier list is because I view them that way based on their attributes. I understand that on a purely results based tier list they would be #3 and #16 or whatever, but again, my tier list is not purely results based. When evaluating their attributes, I do indeed take into account how I see people like Captain Zack and Fatality use character.

I know you think I'm being inconsistent, but I'm not. Fundamentally, my opinion of the characters is just different from that of many other people here. And that's fine.

 

[Monete]

The same could be said for Nairos placement at Pound.

Yes. Two great players very regular and no doubt top ten players now a day

 

[Emblem Lord]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Please yes for the love of all things broken.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Any footage of this being shown?

 

[FeelMeUp]

Assumed he was talking about singlehit WT stuff, but I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[DunnoBro]

I'm assuming it's either rage, witch time, or ledge related.

Catching ledge jump with witch twist is dumb (then if you screw up you just dair/bair)

 

[TDK]

https://twitter.com/Lagnel/status/851427700942061568

Something like this, maybe? Footstool -> Instant Aerial Witch Twist seems to only connect the first hit.

If this is true bayo might be broken again

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

I'll explain myself yet again - I take results into account when making my tier list, but they are not the be all, end all. Fundamentally, the reason I have Bayo at #1 and Falcon at #25 on my personal tier list is because I view them that way based on their attributes. I understand that on a purely results based tier list they would be #3 and #16 or whatever, but again, my tier list is not purely results based. When evaluating their attributes, I do indeed take into account how I see people like Captain Zack and Fatality use character.

I know you think I'm being inconsistent, but I'm not. Fundamentally, my opinion of the characters is just different from that of many other people here. And that's fine.

I don't think anyone is arguing for purely results based tier lists, we already have them anyway. It was certainly never my argument. My point was that at a certain point an opinion is outweighed by hard data. Facts. Still using Falcon as an example, you can argue where in high tier Falcon is, whether he's in the higher end or the lower end (I think he's in the middle to lower end of high tier), but you can't really argue that he isn't in high tier, there are too many facts supporting it. When theory isn't supported by facts, the theory changes.

Any footage of this being shown?

He's making a video that will be released either later today or tomorrow. He's still doing a little further testing as well.

 

[HoSmash4]

Single hit Witch twist has been a thing for a while but getting it consistent during tournament on purpose hasnt been achieved yet.

Lets see what Salem has up his sleeve.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Between the planking techniques top Bayo mains are now using and whatever this new Stuff Salem is going to bring out.
Maybe there is truth about what Zack has been saying about Bayo. That players have only current discovered around 25% of what Bayo is really capable of.

 

[|RK|]

Please yes for the love of all things broken.

I'll bite - why is this a positive, in your opinion?

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I'll bite - why is this a positive, in your opinion?

Umm maybe thrnNintendo would be forced to nerf her...again? Whatever..

 

[ARISTOS]

I'll bite - why is this a positive, in your opinion?

EL just loves characters pushing their options to the limit, I don't its more complicated than that.

EDIT: Also this was good and worth posting here; I think Locus' mentality in game far outstrips pretty much every other top player.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'll bite - why is this a positive, in your opinion?

Perhaps if there is anything good to come from this, putting things out in the open will give players a chance to take a look and see if there is a way to adapt/break down this what Salem is about to share.

For all we know, Salem might be missing one vital point and there's bound to be some players pick up on this (though this I feel is unlikely).

It's likely better to put it out in the open anyway and let people get a grips with the best ways to deal with stuff, rather than keep all the tricks locked away and leave people bewildered when they get hit with unknown sh*t.

Unless it's all as simple as using her 1.1.4 self combos, I don't think it will make a huge deal in the longrun. As mentioned above, single hit Witch Twist has been a thing for a long while now, but it's rather tough and complicated to pull off. Even with a footstool to assist in setting it up, it's not something as simple or dumb as using a tool that functions as a safe poke AND a combo tool, AND is super easy to perform (I'm talking about her 1.1.4 self and DABK).

This is all assuming it's got something to do with single hit Witch Twist and footstools though.

Essentially, depending on how simple or complicated it is could make a huge difference.

 

[soniczx123]

Single hit Witch twist has been a thing for a while but getting it consistent during tournament on purpose hasnt been achieved yet.

Lets see what Salem has up his sleeve.

That's the hit which usually kills off the top at low percent of the ridiculous base knockback, correct?

 

[Bowserboy3]

Off topic of Bayonetta a moment (slightly), I am trying to figure out what moves characters have to lock, but surprisingly, I am drawing a blank with my most used characters...

Can anybody advise which moves these characters have that can lock after a missed tech?

- not sure.
- pretty sure sour Dair can lock (old Jab 1 used to be able too as well). Anyhting else?
- not sure.
- Uncharged Paralyzer can lock if I recall correctly...?
- Sour Nair perhaps? What about Jabs? Turnips I assume?
- Jab 1 if I recall? What about homing missile, bomb and uncharged Charge Shot?

Much appreciated!

 

[Yonder]

I'll bite - why is this a positive, in your opinion?

So that Nintendo can drop a patch on Smash Wii U again and fine-tune other characters while they are at it?

Or more realistically, they just solely nerf Bayo again like the last patch.

Or just Ban Bayo again, one less matchup to worry about in the grand scheme of things. If you don't play Bayo and you're a top player, this only benefits you. Tough break for the Bayo mains like Salem and Child, etc. But for everyone else? Major, major profit.

Idk. I like patches. It's always so fun to see the element of surprise on just who got a tier jumping buff or who is next to be called bottom tier after being nerfed a bit when they actually stay in top (I'm looking at you every single top tier character who has been nerfed bae Luigi who did drop a tier). Ya'll can't tell me a patch where Zelda becomes at least upper mid wouldn't be hype.

And im convinced Jigglypuff is designed to be a joke Character so I respect Sakurai's wishes in not buffing her (Melee rest PTSD).

 

[TDK]

- not sure.

The latest possible dair spike hitbox locks as long as you don't hit with Luma.

Needless to say, this is extremely impractical. But that's the only move I know for sure Rosa has that locks.

 

[Y2Kay]

I know this sort of thing is generally frowned upon, but I just felt like taking a crack at an updated tier list.

Top: (/)
Top/High:
High:
Mid: (/)
Low:
Bottom:

Random Thoughts:
(/): I'm increasingly convinced that Earth is just really good, but the Pits are not. I just can't see a character with no jank ever winning a Smash 4 major. Everyone needs some jank.

you're gonna need a whole lot better explanation than this to convince me that the pits are even worse than . I know the motif of pit being an honest character has been shoved down my (and every Pit players' throat) since the game came out, but this is absurd to me. Pit being a borderline low tier is hyperbolic at least.

 

[Game7a1]

Off topic of Bayonetta a moment (slightly), I am trying to figure out what moves characters have to lock, but surprisingly, I am drawing a blank with my most used characters...

Can anybody advise which moves these characters have that can lock after a missed tech?

- not sure.
- pretty sure sour Dair can lock (old Jab 1 used to be able too as well). Anyhting else?
- not sure.
- Uncharged Paralyzer can lock if I recall correctly...?
- Sour Nair perhaps? What about Jabs? Turnips I assume?
- Jab 1 if I recall? What about homing missile, bomb and uncharged Charge Shot?

Much appreciated!

This thread should come in handy.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

- pretty sure sour Dair can lock (old Jab 1 used to be able too as well). Anyhting else?

I've seen the weak hit of Dolphin Slash lock as shown in this video.

- Jab 1 if I recall? What about homing missile, bomb and uncharged Charge Shot?

Dair can lock as well.

 

[RonNewcomb]

So that Nintendo can drop a patch on Smash Wii U again and fine-tune other characters while they are at it?

Or more realistically, they just solely nerf Bayo again like the last patch.

Or just Ban Bayo again, one less matchup to worry about in the grand scheme of things. If you don't play Bayo and you're a top player, this only benefits you. Tough break for the Bayo mains like Salem and Child, etc. But for everyone else? Major, major profit.

Idk. I like patches. It's always so fun to see the element of surprise on just who got a tier jumping buff or who is next to be called bottom tier after being nerfed a bit when they actually stay in top (I'm looking at you every single top tier character who has been nerfed bae Luigi who did drop a tier). Ya'll can't tell me a patch where Zelda becomes at least upper mid wouldn't be hype.

And im convinced Jigglypuff is designed to be a joke Character so I respect Sakurai's wishes in not buffing her (Melee rest PTSD).

But why would a weegee main want one of his better top-tier MUs removed? Hell all I want from a patch is better controls (tilt stick shouldn't grab, grab button shouldn't jab, etc.) and replace the Twilight Princess artwork with something modern.

 

[blackghost]

I just think that the logic of saying Bayo isn't the best character because Bayo hasn't won a US major yet is flawed.

What kind of results were Captain Zack and Salem getting in the pre-Bayo days? Not taking anything away from them, but we've seen this character transform players into top threats who previously were not. Ikep and 9B also get great results with Bayo in Japan, and in general Bayo gets a ton of results everywhere.

How many players have actually won a major US national? There's ZeRo, Nairo, Dabuz, MKLeo, Abadango, Ally, and ANTi. I think that's literally the complete list.

Bayo is first on my list because her attributes are just insane, and her results are more than good enough to suggest she's capable of winning plenty of majors. It just hasn't happened yet because the Bayo players have been beaten by better players... so far.

I'll respond in full when I have time but don't use Zach and salem results pre-Bayo they don't help your case. Salem wasn't playing smash 4. And Zach was well respected but didn't travel. He had ( has?) a high level peach and respectable Wii fit. Zach was in new Orleans at the time so a less known scene.
People are questioning what you are saying because you say undisputed best. What if not results are you using to back that claim up? Because it's not frame data,results, or matchup charts.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I'll respond in full when I have time but don't use Zach and salem results pre-Bayo they don't help your case. Salem wasn't playing smash 4. And Zach was well respected but didn't travel. He had ( has?) a high level peach and respectable Wii fit. Zach was in new Orleans at the time so a less known scene.
People are questioning what you are saying because you say undisputed best. What if not results are you using to back that claim up? Because it's not frame data,results, or matchup charts.

I played against both Salem and Zack on WiFi in the pre-Bayo days, so I know of what I speak.

In fact, I have the chat dialogue from December 2015 on Anther's Ladder - I had just gotten the better of Zack in a long WiFi session, and he said he was disappointed that he was "only at this level" despite putting 300 hours into playing Peach.

They're extremely talented and I'm not taking anything away from them. I'm just saying, the fact that neither has won a major yet does not convince me that Bayo is not the best character in the game.

In any case, I think both of them have strong potential to win a major tournament! (Especially Zack based on recent results)

 

[Iron Kraken]

you're gonna need a whole lot better explanation than this to convince me that the pits are even worse than . I know the motif of pit being an honest character has been shoved down my (and every Pit players' throat) since the game came out, but this is absurd to me. Pit being a borderline low tier is hyperbolic at least.

Alright, maybe I was just a bit low on Pit. But I do think he's somewhere in mid-tier. From what I've heard, even Earth doesn't really think that Pit is good enough to get it done. And that's pretty much the world's only good Pit player saying that.

 

[Vyrnx]

No one is going to put up a compelling argument for Diddy not being the best character in the current meta. By a straight comparison between characters and what they achieve at the peak of their meta games right now, Diddy is obviously the best character and it isn't even that close.

That's not to say that that couldn't change in the future (Sheik or Bayo seeing meta advancements, better Diddy counterplay, for instance), but anyone arguing that a character other than Diddy is the best character at the current highest levels of play is wrong. And for now, at least, there aren't many signs of that changing. "but it's just ZeRo being really really good" no it's not

 

[my_T]

No one is going to put up a compelling argument for Diddy not being the best character in the current meta. By a straight comparison between characters and what they achieve at the peak of their meta games right now, Diddy is obviously the best character and it isn't even that close.

That's not to say that that couldn't change in the future (Sheik or Bayo seeing meta advancements, better Diddy counterplay, for instance), but anyone arguing that a character other than Diddy is the best character at the current highest levels of play is wrong. And for now, at least, there aren't many signs of that changing. "but it's just ZeRo being really really good" no it's not

Diddy and Sheik are the only legitimate contenders I would say. Both characters are noticeably more consistent at top level than the other top tiers.

Bayonetta seems to be too weak in neutral to be number 1. It shows in both her MU's and her results.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

And that's pretty much the world's only good Pit player saying that.

Talk about savage.

No one is going to put up a compelling argument for Diddy not being the best character in the current meta. By a straight comparison between characters and what they achieve at the peak of their meta games right now, Diddy is obviously the best character and it isn't even that close.

That's not to say that that couldn't change in the future (Sheik or Bayo seeing meta advancements, better Diddy counterplay, for instance), but anyone arguing that a character other than Diddy is the best character at the current highest levels of play is wrong. And for now, at least, there aren't many signs of that changing. "but it's just ZeRo being really really good" no it's not

Isn't the popular consensus that Bayonetta is the best or something?

 

[DunnoBro]

One thing looking good for duck hunt is his ability to trap low air speed/decelaration characters with uthrow. (Diddy, Bayo, M2, etc)

We likely didn't get to see it since Raito fought stupid air speed chars mostly which uthrow is useless vs, but essentially if duck hunt has a significant lead(not too hard) it's pretty hilarious that duck hunt can go for the uair, and if they airdodge frame 1can just kills them anyway. So they have to jump away, and without enough airspeed or options duck hunt can easily cover all their options even if they go offstage. (Can and frisbee will chase to set up a jumpless edgeguard, fsmash if they try to attack back into stage)

It's the same reason sheik can uthrow kill the chars she does, except duck hunt kills sooner (that feels weird saying).

 

[blackghost]

I played against both Salem and Zack on WiFi in the pre-Bayo days, so I know of what I speak.

In fact, I have the chat dialogue from December 2015 on Anther's Ladder - I had just gotten the better of Zack in a long WiFi session, and he said he was disappointed that he was "only at this level" despite putting 300 hours into playing Peach.

They're extremely talented and I'm not taking anything away from them. I'm just saying, the fact that neither has won a major yet does not convince me that Bayo is not the best character in the game.

In any case, I think both of them have strong potential to win a major tournament! (Especially Zack based on recent results)

What about her matchup chart? How does that say she's the best by a long shot?

 

[DunnoBro]

What about her matchup chart? How does that say she's the best by a long shot?

According to Zack, Salem, and Pink her MU chart looks exactly like what a 'best' characters would look like.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'll bite - why is this a positive, in your opinion?

I want characters to be strong. And I want people to die for being stupid.

Not enough people dying for being idiots in this game.