Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Peppermint1201]

TDK Nakat used Ness as well, at least vs. ESAM and probably in other matchups as well

 

[Ark of Silence101]

TDK Bloodcross did use Zard, check Esam's twitter if you want confirmation.

Edit: tfw Sharpy wasn't even the highest placing Zard ;~;

It was just bad luck he had to encounter Zack and Salem, I am sure next time he comes he'll do better.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It was just bad luck he had to encounter Zack and Salem, I am sure next time he comes he'll do better.

That may be but to say he was utterly screwed by bracket luck would be an understatement.
We have a character with excellent neutral and maybe one move that can beat out witch time which doesn't matter due to the fact that zard's disadvantage is so terrible that any character with an excellent combo game takes zard from zero to death in a matter of seconds from one wrong high commitment move!
The only times i've beat Bayos in FG (and these weren't even GOOD bayos) I've had to spam my shield constantly, choose my rolls carefully and heaven forbid if there were any walls for Bayo to plank low on (thankfully flamethrower beats bayos planking and witch time but not so much bat within).
The world's best zard who doesn't travel much having to go against not one but two bayos who have all aspects of their character (advantage, disadvantage, and neutral) down is nothing short of an uphill climb if not an impossible fight for zard! Sharpy didn't even take one set off in either match!

 

[Ark of Silence101]

That may be but to say he was utterly screwed by bracket luck would be an understatement.
We have a character with excellent neutral and maybe one move that can beat out witch time which doesn't matter due to the fact that zard's disadvantage is so terrible that any character with an excellent combo game takes zard from zero to death in a matter of seconds from one wrong high commitment move!
The only times i've beat Bayos in FG (and these weren't even GOOD bayos) I've had to spam my shield constantly, choose my rolls carefully and heaven forbid if there were any walls for Bayo to plank low on (thankfully flamethrower beats bayos planking and witch time but not so much bat within).
The world's best zard who doesn't travel much having to go against not one but two bayos who have all aspects of their character (advantage, disadvantage, and neutral) down is nothing short of an uphill climb if not an impossible fight for zard! Sharpy didn't even take one set off in either match!

I remember that in his twitter he said that the Dominican Republic needed more players and that Salem is op, pretty sure once he gets enough MU knowledge, he'll get around. If by any chance 2GGC: Pokemon Saga becomes a reality, make sure to spam in their Twitter account for Sharpy, otherwise who knows how much we'd have to wait before he comes again.

 

[|RK|]

I remember that in his twitter he said that the Dominican Republic needed more players and that Salem is op, pretty sure once he gets enough MU knowledge, he'll get around. If by any chance 2GGC: Pokemon Saga becomes a reality, make sure to spam in their Twitter account for Sharpy, otherwise who knows how much we'd have to wait before he comes again.

Players like Sharpy need to get good at wifi, IMO. Would solve a couple of his issues. 1) He'd get the MU practice he needs. 2) He'd build a reputation for himself so he isn't passed over when it comes time to vote for players to fly over.

If Sharpy beat Dragonbrain and Twi a couple of times, he could at LEAST get Naifu fame. From there he could set up a GoFundMe to fly out to a large tournament of his choosing. Participating in Discord is another thing - many Discords would be ecstatic to get top players of their character to events.

But I'm getting ahead of myself; I'm *assuming* his issue is the money to travel in this case.

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Players like Sharpy need to get good at wifi, IMO. Would solve a couple of his issues. 1) He'd get the MU practice he needs. 2) He'd build a reputation for himself so he isn't passed over when it comes time to vote for players to fly over.

If Sharpy beat Dragonbrain and Twi a couple of times, he could at LEAST get Naifu fame. From there he could set up a GoFundMe to fly out to a large tournament of his choosing. Participating in Discord is another thing - many Discords would be ecstatic to get top players of their character to events.

But I'm getting ahead of myself; I'm *assuming* his issue is the money to travel in this case.

This is a good idea overall if like you said, money happens to be his main issue. Speaking of Naifu, do you happen to know if Nairo is going to fly any Japanese players that are part of his community to EVO this year?

 

[my_T]

I like the idea you're trying to convey across DunnoBro , does advantage begin once you touch an opponent or does it begin once you can act after your true combo/hit?

There's more to advantage than hitting the opponent. You still have to consider frame and positional advantage. I swear the smash community is the only one that seemingly ignores these aspects.

This is why characters like DH, Sonic, or Sheik can do so well. DH, although being relatively bad at killing, is VERY good at controlling space, thus making it easier to force opponents into bad situations and capitalize on them. This is why he's still able to win despite the fact that his opponent will live damn near twice as long most of the time. Same applies to Sheik and Sonic, they're even better at it than DH.

 

[Das Koopa]

MARCH 2017 DATA ANALYSIS
Written by Das_Koopa/Barnard's Loop/Zero_Destroyer

Changes from previous month:

Luigi +0.6%
Rosalina & Luma +0.5%
Villager +0.5%
Olimar +0.4%
Zero Suit Samus +0.3%
Ness +0.3%
Mega Man +0.3%
Captain Falcon +0.2%
Bayonetta +0.2%
Lucario +0.1%
Corrin +0.1%
Sonic +0.1%
Pit +0.1%
Shulk = 1%
R.O.B. = 1.1%
Pikachu = 1.3%
Donkey Kong = 1.6%
Fox = 5%
Other = 9.6%
Ryu -0.1%
Greninja -0.1%
Meta Knight -0.1%
Peach -0.2%
Mario -0.2%
Toon Link -0.2%
Cloud -0.3%
Sheik -0.3%
Marth -0.3%
Mewtwo -0.6%
Diddy Kong -1%

There's really not much to talk about that hasn't been covered. Some long-term tracking is of interest, so we'll focus on one particularly interesting subject: How does 2017 so far fare for characters compared to their 2016 performances?

DECLINES & UPSWINGS

Let's talk about the waning relevancy of the p a c c.

From March 15th-January 1st, Pac-Man garnered 81.5 points. This is around 8.5 points a month. In 2017 - with a very forgiving set of tournament requirements - Pac-Man's 8.5 points a month has plummeted to a mere 4 points a month average with only 12 points gained from January 1st to April 1st.

A lot of characters have had declines, actually. We'll take a look at them riiiiight now~

DECLINING EXAMPLES:


14.6 p/month 2016
7.1 p/month Q1 2017


24.7 p/month 2016
8 p/month Q1 2017


4.7 p/month 2016
0.6 p/month Q1 2017


11 p/month 2016
2.5 p/month Q1 2017


4.2 p/month 2016
0.3 p/month Q1 2017


1.8 p/month 2016
0.0 p/month Q1 2017 (No Score)


6.8 p/month 2016
4 p/month Q1 2017


7.8 p/month 2016
5.5 p/month Q1 2017

GAINING EXAMPLES:


10.7 p/month 2016
12.6 p/month Q1 2017


6.8 p/month 2016
16.6 p/month Q1 2017


9.6 p/month 2016
11.6 p/month Q1 2017


8.4 p/month 2016
16.6 p/month Q1 2017


8.7 p/month 2016
9 p/month Q1 2017


21.7 p/month 2016
29.8 p/month Q1 2017


13.5 p/month 2016
17.6 p/month Q1 2017

These are just a few examples. During the Phase 1 Assessment at the end of April, I will release a full list of % changes from 2016 to Phase 1 2017. I'll hand out a few individual examples if asked, as the math for this is ez.


FULL RESULTS:

Spoiler: Category 1-5

Cloud: 422
Bayonetta: 397.5
Diddy Kong: 380.5
Sheik: 328
Fox: 245.5
Sonic: 237.5
Mario: 206.5
Rosalina & Luma: 196
Zero Suit Samus: 174
Mewtwo: 156.5
Marth: 150
Ryu: 145.5
Meta Knight: 130
Captain Falcon: 114.5
Luigi: 101
Villager: 96
Ness: 91.5
Peach: 90.5
Olimar: 89.5
Lucario: 81
Corrin: 80
Donkey Kong: 78
Greninja: 76.5
Mega Man: 71
Toon Link: 65.5
Pikachu: 62.5
R.O.B.: 53
Pit: 53
Duck Hunt: 50
Shulk: 50
Lucina: 45.5
Bowser: 45
Mr. Game & Watch: 38
Robin: 37
Link: 35
Samus: 27
Yoshi: 24
Lucas: 23
Ike: 21.5
Wii Fit Trainer: 16.5
Wario: 16
Little Mac: 15
Falco: 15
Roy: 14
Charizard: 12
Pac-Man: 12
Dark Pit: 10.5
Palutena: 7.5
Kirby: 2
Zelda: 2
King Dedede: 1
Bowser Jr.: 1
Ganondorf: 1

Methodology:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xANyxbGsV8-JKT4PHyrIKbveXVqL93Y0Leb0NALmAsY/edit

Results thread:
https://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-placing-database-scoring-project.437773/

Previous month:
https://smashboards.com/threads/4br...insight-analysis.445990/page-13#post-21681129

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshidora looked like he was playing godlike at Sumbato last night, looking especially good against Komo's Sonic and Kei's Cloud, but his set against Komo's Cloud really showed the characters weaknesses. Dora was still playing out of his mind, but Cloud's range was just keeping him out for most of the game and just about all of his kills were edgeguards after Yoshi's jump was gone. Yoshi's recovery is really exploitable for characters like Cloud, Diddy, Bayo and Marth. To be fair though, I did notice that Yoshidora was double jumping around a lot, which he was probably doing for the heavy armor and to take advantage of Yoshi's amazing air mobility and Komo caught on to that once he switched to Cloud and managed to capitalize a couple times.

Yoshi still looks like a really good mid tier though in Yoshidora's hands, he can just get all over his opponents in certain matchups.

is there any way to watch this?

 

[Iron Kraken]

I know this sort of thing is generally frowned upon, but I just felt like taking a crack at an updated tier list.

Top: (/)
Top/High:
High:
Mid: (/)
Low:
Bottom:

Random Thoughts:

: Putting her at #1 is still the easiest decision on the entire list for me.
: Puts up amazing results as a secondary/pocket character, even if Cloud mains can get volatile results in tournament.
: I was tempted to put her 2nd overall, but I'd like to see Dabuz win more consistently against Cloud first. The fact that she can be counter picked with such a common character holds her back just a bit.
(/): I know they're not exactly Pit and Dark Pit and that they have some real differences, but at the end of the day I still feel like if you can use one it's not that hard to learn to use the other. I just prefer to count them together and chalk up the differences to a matter of personal preference.
: I'm *this* close to moving Fox down a tier. He's still a great character and is capable of killing early, but the lack of a kill throw combined with the lack of being able to edge guard makes it so that his killing is inconsistent.
: I already considered Peach high tier, so Samsora's recent rise hasn't really moved me much on her. But she definitely has some potential to climb if Samsora keeps putting up these kinds of results.
: For a long time post-nerf I was convinced Luigi was mid-tier, but Elegant single-handedly changed my view on the character.
: I know that lack of matchup knowledge on the part of American players can be considered a factor in Raito's results, but overall Duck Hunt's have been getting good results, and I think he deserves to start climbing up people's tier lists at this point.
: I know they're just friendlies/money matches, but man, Sharpyzard did amazing in them against some of the top Smash 4 players. We need to see what he can do at a major without such a bad bracket. Bloodcross also put on a good performance with Zard. All of this only adds to my prior conviction that Zard has a lot of untapped potential.
(/): I'm increasingly convinced that Earth is just really good, but the Pits are not. I just can't see a character with no jank ever winning a Smash 4 major. Everyone needs some jank.

 

[Nu~]

I know this sort of thing is generally frowned upon, but I just felt like taking a crack at an updated tier list.

Top: (/)
Top/High:
High:
Mid: (/)
Low:
Bottom:

Random Thoughts:

: Putting her at #1 is still the easiest decision on the entire list for me.
: Puts up amazing results as a secondary/pocket character, even if Cloud mains can get volatile results in tournament.
: I was tempted to put her 2nd overall, but I'd like to see Dabuz win more consistently against Cloud first. The fact that she can be counter picked with such a common character holds her back just a bit.
(/): I know they're not exactly Pit and Dark Pit and that they have some real differences, but at the end of the day I still feel like if you can use one it's not that hard to learn to use the other. I just prefer to count them together and chalk up the differences to a matter of personal preference.
: I'm *this* close to moving Fox down a tier. He's still a great character and is capable of killing early, but the lack of a kill throw combined with the lack of being able to edge guard makes it so that his killing is inconsistent.
: I already considered Peach high tier, so Samsora's recent rise hasn't really moved me much on her. But she definitely has some potential to climb if Samsora keeps putting up these kinds of results.
: For a long time post-nerf I was convinced Luigi was mid-tier, but Elegant single-handedly changed my view on the character.
: I know that lack of matchup knowledge on the part of American players can be considered a factor in Raito's results, but overall Duck Hunt's have been getting good results, and I think he deserves to start climbing up people's tier lists at this point.
: I know they're just friendlies/money matches, but man, Sharpyzard did amazing in them against some of the top Smash 4 players. We need to see what he can do at a major without such a bad bracket. Bloodcross also put on a good performance with Zard. All of this only adds to my prior conviction that Zard has a lot of untapped potential.
(/): I'm increasingly convinced that Earth is just really good, but the Pits are not. I just can't see a character with no jank ever winning a Smash 4 major. Everyone needs some jank.

Greninja in mid?

 

[ismaaa]

I know this sort of thing is generally frowned upon, but I just felt like taking a crack at an updated tier list.

Top: (/)
Top/High:
High:
Mid: (/)
Low:
Bottom:

Random Thoughts:

: Putting her at #1 is still the easiest decision on the entire list for me.
: Puts up amazing results as a secondary/pocket character, even if Cloud mains can get volatile results in tournament.
: I was tempted to put her 2nd overall, but I'd like to see Dabuz win more consistently against Cloud first. The fact that she can be counter picked with such a common character holds her back just a bit.
(/): I know they're not exactly Pit and Dark Pit and that they have some real differences, but at the end of the day I still feel like if you can use one it's not that hard to learn to use the other. I just prefer to count them together and chalk up the differences to a matter of personal preference.
: I'm *this* close to moving Fox down a tier. He's still a great character and is capable of killing early, but the lack of a kill throw combined with the lack of being able to edge guard makes it so that his killing is inconsistent.
: I already considered Peach high tier, so Samsora's recent rise hasn't really moved me much on her. But she definitely has some potential to climb if Samsora keeps putting up these kinds of results.
: For a long time post-nerf I was convinced Luigi was mid-tier, but Elegant single-handedly changed my view on the character.
: I know that lack of matchup knowledge on the part of American players can be considered a factor in Raito's results, but overall Duck Hunt's have been getting good results, and I think he deserves to start climbing up people's tier lists at this point.
: I know they're just friendlies/money matches, but man, Sharpyzard did amazing in them against some of the top Smash 4 players. We need to see what he can do at a major without such a bad bracket. Bloodcross also put on a good performance with Zard. All of this only adds to my prior conviction that Zard has a lot of untapped potential.
(/): I'm increasingly convinced that Earth is just really good, but the Pits are not. I just can't see a character with no jank ever winning a Smash 4 major. Everyone needs some jank.

not in top 10?

 

[Finh009]

I know this sort of thing is generally frowned upon, but I just felt like taking a crack at an updated tier list.

Top: (/)
Top/High:
High:
Mid: (/)
Low:
Bottom:

There are a few odd placings. But the placing I'm confused about the most is >

 

[TDK]

ZSS not top 10 seems understandable to me due to her having the lowest potential ceiling out of all the top tiers and other players slowly figuring out how to work around her gameplan.

At the same time, it's really hard to argue with Marss and Nairo still top 8ing nearly every major so by results she is most definitely within the top 10.

EDIT: Oh, and ESAM used samus and won vs NAKAT at Dreamland.

 

[|RK|]

There are a few odd placings. But the placing I'm confused about the most is >

I mean... Zelda is also not better than Kirby, but IDC anymore lol

 

[FeelMeUp]

what makes rosa better than sheik
strictly speaking on matchup spreads but you can try results too.

 

[|RK|]

Zinoto's Cram School vid for Diddy is out. I didn't realize that Diddy had the Ryu problem of being unable to reverse direction in the air. Huh.

 

[Jjab430]

At this point I'm convinced that the only way people are gonna acknowledge Falcon as a high tier is if Fatality goes on a ZeRo-like 50 tournament win streak.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Greninja in mid?

I mean, I have him at the very top of mid, meaning he's just outside of high. I don't think this is a particularly abnormal placement for him. He also lacks the high placings in US majors that all of the characters above him have, as well as a few characters below him.

not in top 10?

Which of the characters I have above her would you say she's definitely better then? ZSS is a great character, but I still think she has enough flaws that keep her from being at the very top. Nairo is a top 5 player in the world but I attribute that more to him than his character.

There are a few odd placings. But the placing I'm confused about the most is >

I mean, the characters at the bottom of the list are all kind of bunched up for me. I wouldn't argue with you too much if you think Kirby should be a few spots higher. I might be slightly biased in this particular case because as Rosa, it always felt like Kirby was utterly helpless in the matchup (I think it's Rosa's single most lopsided matchup, and that's saying something). But the bottom line is that I don't feel too strongly about any of the placements in that row. I just feel that Ganondorf and Jigglypuff offer the least amount of hope.

what makes rosa better than sheik
strictly speaking on matchup spreads.

Well for one thing, wins the head-to-head matchup with , which is a big deal. She also does better against top/high tiers like . She does much better against grapplers like . She's also less susceptible to aura.

In any case, I still have them right next to each other on my tier list.

Also, aside from the matchups themselves, I also believe in Rosa because of the results she gets despite the fact that far fewer top players actually tried to learn her compared to the likes of Sheik, yet she still puts up great results.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Mr. R confirmed my old post about having no reason to choose a ledge option when banana is on the ledge. meaning everyone that gets ledgetrapped by ZeRo for half the game is either bad or isn't playing the character/player matchup properly.

 

[Iron Kraken]

At this point I'm convinced that the only way people are gonna acknowledge Falcon as a high tier is if Fatality goes on a ZeRo-like 50 tournament win streak.

A lot of people have Falcon in high tier. I have him as a being close to the border of high and mid, but opted for mid. I have him higher than Link, who also placed Top 3 at Civil War. I know that's far from Fatality's only good result, But overall I'm also still considering his attributes, not just his results. It's just my personal opinion that Fatality has pushed the character a bit further then I would expect Falcon to be on paper.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I not sure why so many people still think Bayo is the undisputed best character in the game .Locus also said Bayo was the best in the game in this personal list of the top 10 characters despite all his comments and saying that Ryu could be the best. It seems kinda like the Sheik situation where you can bet that There will be on or even 2 in the top 8 at most majors, but cannot really to ever manage majors for whatever reason. Not to mention Salem , who many consider to be the top Bayo main has been somewhat inconsisteint lately.

Make no mistake, I still Bayo is still top tier and around top 5 . But she needs more major wins to really be considered the undisputed #1

 

[Iron Kraken]

I not sure why so many people still think Bayo is the undisputed best character in the game .Locus also said Bayo was the best in the game in this personal list of the top 10 characters I dot know its kinda like the Sheik situation where you can bet that There will be on or even 2 in the top 8 at most majors, but cannot really to ever manage majors for whatever reason. Not to mention Salem , who many consider to be the top Bayo main has been somewhat inconsisteint lately

I just think that the logic of saying Bayo isn't the best character because Bayo hasn't won a US major yet is flawed.

What kind of results were Captain Zack and Salem getting in the pre-Bayo days? Not taking anything away from them, but we've seen this character transform players into top threats who previously were not. Ikep and 9B also get great results with Bayo in Japan, and in general Bayo gets a ton of results everywhere.

How many players have actually won a major US national? There's ZeRo, Nairo, Dabuz, MKLeo, Abadango, Ally, and ANTi. I think that's literally the complete list.

Bayo is first on my list because her attributes are just insane, and her results are more than good enough to suggest she's capable of winning plenty of majors. It just hasn't happened yet because the Bayo players have been beaten by better players... so far.

 

[|RK|]

Maybe it's because I'm relatively comfortable in the Rosa MU, but I don't find it to be as much of an issue. *shrug* Maybe I'll do something important at some point, but I guess nothing to discuss right now.

Mr. R confirmed my old post about having no reason to choose a ledge option when banana is on the ledge. meaning everyone that gets ledgetrapped by ZeRo for half the game is either bad or isn't playing the character/player matchup properly.

I was so excited when I heard this lol. It was something I realized when I was trying to mimic ZeRo's style of ledgetrapping.

Though I wouldn't call people bad for not realizing it. He destroys some very good players at the ledge.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

At this point I'm convinced that the only way people are gonna acknowledge Falcon as a high tier is if Fatality goes on a ZeRo-like 50 tournament win streak.

And on the same page that shows that Falcon is top 14 in terms of results over the last month.
Totally not a trend.
Totally hasn't been around this place in terms of results for a year.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Maybe it's because I'm relatively comfortable in the Rosa MU, but I don't find it to be as much of an issue. *shrug* .

Not trying to burst your bubble, but if you feel comfortable in the Rosa matchup as Kirby, I doubt you've played a Rosa who knows what they're doing in the matchup. The matchup is as close to hopeless for Kirby as matchups get in Smash 4 in my opinion. All Rosa really has to do is space with things like star bits, D-tilt, and Bair, and Kirby can't get in. Rosa's anti-air game is too good in the matchup for Kirby to approach from the air. And once Kirby goes into disadvantage, Kirby is pretty much screwed. He just has no good way to land against Rosa, which is a death sentence against her.

I say this with some experience playing against some very respectable Kirby players, like Mike Kirby.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I just think that the logic of saying Bayo isn't the best character because Bayo hasn't won a US major yet is flawed.

What kind of results were Captain Zack and Salem getting in the pre-Bayo days? Not taking anything away from them, but we've seen this character transform players into top threats who previously were not. Ikep and 9B also get great results with Bayo in Japan, and in general Bayo gets a ton of results everywhere.

How many players have actually won a major US national? There's ZeRo, Nairo, Dabuz, MKLeo, Abadango, Ally, and ANTi. I think that's literally the complete list.

Bayo is first on my list because her attributes are just insane, and her results are more than good enough to suggest she's capable of winning plenty of majors. It just hasn't happened yet because the Bayo players have been beaten by better players... so far.

I understand your point to, Bayo may not have won nationals but her overall placings and consistency are top-tier level. However crazy attributes and tools and supposed potential does not make a character the best in the game. Just look at the whole Ryu situation turned out. (Yea I Know Locus has been doing really good with Ryu lately , I am just not saying he is the best in the game either )

 

[Iron Kraken]

And on the same page that shows that Falcon is top 14 in terms of results over the last month.
Totally not a trend.
Totally hasn't been around this place in terms of results for a year.

The implication here is that a character's results should have a 1-to-1 correspondence with their attributes.

I don't agree with that line of thinking.

And in the case of Falcon, I think there's a fairly good explanation for this - People love playing Falcon. So therefore Falcon has more people giving him a chance compared to most other characters, thus he punches above his weight in terms of results.

That's my opinion anyway. I still have him in my top 25, but as long as tier lists are not entirely results based, people are going to have their disagreements.

 

[Iron Kraken]

I understand your point to, Bayo may not have won nationals but her overall placings and consistency are top-tier level. However crazy attributes and tools and supposed potential does not make a character the best in the game. Just look at the whole Ryu situation turned out. (YeaKnow Locus has been doing really good with Ryu lately , I am just not saying he is the best in the game either )

I mean, what does make a character the best in the game? Whichever character has the most wins at a national level? In that case, we might as well put Diddy in SSS tier... or we just might want to say that in addition to Diddy being a great character, ZeRo is just that great of a player.

Sure, Bayo and Ryu both have "crazy" attributes, but when looking at the total package, Bayo is just better. They both have an absurd punish game, but what puts Bayo a cut above is her absurdly good disadvantage.

There are two types of tier lists: Those based purely on results, and those that *consider* results, but ultimately are about trying to rank characters based on their attributes. Certainly, there is some guesswork involved with that. But you try your best while considering what you've seen of characters and what you think you still could see from characters.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

The implication here is that a character's results should have a 1-to-1 correspondence with their attributes.

I don't agree with that line of thinking.

And in the case of Falcon, I think there's a fairly good explanation for this - People love playing Falcon. So therefore Falcon has more people giving him a chance then most other characters, thus he punches above his weight in terms of results.

That's my opinion anyway. I still have him in my top 25, but as long as tier lists are not entirely results based, people are going to have their disagreements.

It's more so that despite all these flaws that people love to talk about, Falcon is still getting good results, showing he's able to overcome these flaws. Even when we take out lower level tournaments, which Das Koopa has had several charts for over last year, Falcon is still around top 16 in results.

 

[verbatim]

IMO people are missing the biggest point from the March stats. Before that people often talked about top tier being composed of somewhere between 9 and 11 characters that significantly outpreformed the rest of the cast. Looking at the top 13 (arbitrary) we can see some BIG gaps that disagree with this framing.

Cloud: 422
Bayonetta: 397.5
Diddy Kong: 380.5
Sheik: 328

significant gap

Fox: 245.5
Sonic: 237.5

everyone else has less than HALF of the representation in high level play that Cloud has. It's a very arbitrary benchmark, but I think that it makes a good representation of my point.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

: I know they're just friendlies/money matches, but man, Sharpyzard did amazing in them against some of the top Smash 4 players. We need to see what he can do at a major without such a bad bracket. Bloodcross also put on a good performance with Zard. All of this only adds to my prior conviction that Zard has a lot of untapped potential.

As a character loyalist for the character since he first came out for Brawl I have to agree with this. As a counter for the super popular Cloud Zard has the potential to be the character you whip out when you want to take down high level Cloud players.
Does that mean that Clouds can't beat him? Of course not, it's even at best for Zard but out of all the lower-mid tiers zard gives Cloud the hardest time and given how popular Cloud is in high level play having a secondary/pocket to counter Cloud is always a viable option.
There may be characters that do better but that's where I can see zard showing off what he can do. Swordies just don't faze zard like other characters do.

 

[|RK|]

Not trying to burst your bubble, but if you feel comfortable in the Rosa matchup as Kirby, I doubt you've played a Rosa who knows what they're doing in the matchup. The matchup is as close to hopeless for Kirby as matchups get in Smash 4 in my opinion. All Rosa really has to do is space with things like star bits, D-tilt, and Bair, and Kirby can't get in. Rosa's anti-air game is too good in the matchup for Kirby to approach from the air. And once Kirby goes into disadvantage, Kirby is pretty much screwed. He just has no good way to land against Rosa, which is a death sentence against her.

I say this with some experience playing against some very respectable Kirby players, like Mike Kirby.

I mean, friendlies obviously aren't meaningful... but I've played Dabuz online. He also believes the MU is hopeless, but he has complimented how I play it.

As he taught me vs Cloud, I use multijumps to escape uair pressure instead of airdodging. Makes sure Kirby doesn't die from uair most of the time. I also go directly to the ledge, and try to get up before Rosa gets set up. Star bits aren't more than a hassle. Dtilt and bair don't compare to, say, Cloud/Corrin bair. That is, they can be powershielded. Also, Kirby is a grounded character to begin with. My main aim is to get a grab, which I then try to convert into a Luma kill. Of course, even without Luma, Rosa can run away reasonably easily...

Other things I learned - not to use jumps immediately offstage. Check what Rosa wants first - is she setting up jab pressure, rushing off the ledge, or waiting to try and dair me? Then I respond accordingly. Going high usually works out, as I can down b directly under the ledge and cancel it such that I snap to the ledge afterwards. But otherwise, stages with lips (like Battlefield) are also super helpful since I can ride it upwards to avoid dair pressure (and tech in the event of a stage spike).

Luma shot is really good in this MU as well, because it's a safe Luma killer. Hard to come by in general. But that makes the MU much easier in general IMO.

I'm not claiming to be an amazing, but I do try to get MU experience & study the hard MUs to understand counterplay. Still trying to develop gameplans, of course. But I have valid reasons when I say that certain MUs aren't impossible... That said, I accept I don't have perfect knowledge, and there could easily be things I'm missing. *shrug* We'll see!

 

[Emblem Lord]

You are not missing anything.

Kirby is worthless vs Rosa. Time to close the chapter on this particular match.

 

[|RK|]

You are not missing anything.

Kirby is worthless vs Rosa. Time to close the chapter on this particular match.

So... my point was that I'm studying and am continuing to study the MU in response to Kraken. I was also laying out specific counterplay. If you aren't interested in the discussion, there was really no need for this, right?

That said, for any of you who were wondering what Kirby does in that MU - my post above may be helpful. I'm obviously going to continue learning the MU, ofc

 

[DunnoBro]

IIRC Pre-patch sheik's results weren't much better than current Bayo's yet it was obvious she was the best. She has a monopoly on the disadvantage state, just as sheik had a monopoly on the neutral.

 

[|RK|]

I mentioned it earlier, but again, Zinoto's Cram School:

Since we talk about tier list vids and what not...

It's kinda interesting what people let Diddy players get away with for free.

IIRC Pre-patch sheik's results weren't much better than current Bayo's yet it was obvious she was the best. She has a monopoly on the disadvantage state, just as sheik had a monopoly on the neutral.

True, but pre-patch Sheik also had ZeRo. Huge boon for people looking for explicit results.

 

[DanGR]

Iron Kraken If you want to see evidence that Rosalina can do better against Cloud, just watch Kirihara play the matchup (particularly his edgeguarding) and compare/contrast with Dabuz' approach. Regardless, I don't think you can equate individual matchup experience with some ratio. The data is there nonetheless.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

So the logic I am getting here is that if that if one of the very best players (ZeRo, Nario , Ally , Leo etc.) decide to use Bayo as a main. She would be winning majors left and right like ZeRo was doing with pre-patch Sheik?


Does not seem likely.

So far out of top players who have won majors. Abadango is the only looking to pick up Bayo as a co-main.

 

[Iron Kraken]

Iron Kraken If you want to see evidence that Rosalina can do better against Cloud, just watch Kirihara play the matchup (particularly his edgeguarding) and compare/contrast with Dabuz' approach. Regardless, I don't think you can equate individual matchup experience with some ratio. The data is there nonetheless.

No doubt Kirihara plays the Cloud matchup better than Dabuz. He also plays the ZeRo matchup much better than Dabuz.

Rosa is plenty capable of beating Cloud, but I still consider it a losing matchup for Rosa. And given that Cloud is arguably the most prevalent character in the game when you factor in people who use him as a secondary, that's definitely not a good matchup to lose.

I still think Rosa is easily top 5 and arguably top 2, though.