Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Dark.Pch]

Here is the problem. People are aggressive at the wrong times. Or solo focus on that when their character is not ment for said thing. I'm gonna use Dabuz here as an example. He is the only rosalina that seems to be hitting top 8 at these big events. There are other good Rosa's but none seem to pull off what he does. The reason for that is He does not force stuff or go for typical Rosa stuff if it is not the right time. He will wait for the right time to start taking control and pissing people off. He knows when he can play and when he has to respect. People gave him too much crap cause of how he played. If he played like the other rosa's just to please people, he not be placing as high as he does. There are matches where he wins and he does not do any fancy rosa stuff. Cause the opponent is playing to solid that he has to just get baby hits to get a kill. Other times he has a chance to just go wild and release rosa jank on people. This is what breaks apart his rosa from others.

Players wanna show off or go for all the cool stuff they learned and practiced. And if they dont get it, they force it in a way that the character is not ment to and leave themselves open. There is nothing wrong when being aggressive. The problem is how people choose to be aggressive. When one is suppose to respect the opponents options and play, players don't want too, they find it boring, feel like they are not playing and cant freely do what they wan't. So they say screw it all and end up moving into stuff and end up losing. And that's the problem. There is a time to play and a time to chill out. And players don't wanna follow those rules. yet have the urge to complain when stuff goes bad and wanna play characters, match ups, lack up sleep, being drunk, etc.

 

[|RK|]

Here is the problem. People are aggressive at the wrong times. Or solo focus on that when their character is not ment for said thing. I'm gonna use Dabuz here as an example. He is the only rosalina that seems to be hitting top 8 at these big events. There are other good Rosa's but none seem to pull off what he does. The reason for that is He does not force stuff or go for typical Rosa stuff if it is not the right time. He will wait for the right time to start taking control and pissing people off. He knows when he can play and when he has to respect. People gave him too much crap cause of how he played. If he played like the other rosa's just to please people, he not be placing as high as he does. There are matches where he wins and he does not do any fancy rosa stuff. Cause the opponent is playing to solid that he has to just get baby hits to get a kill. Other times he has a chance to just go wild and release rosa jank on people. This is what breaks apart his rosa from others.

Players wanna show off or go for all the cool stuff they learned and practiced. And if they dont get it, they force it in a way that the character is not ment to and leave themselves open. There is nothing wrong when being aggressive. The problem is how people choose to be aggressive. When one is suppose to respect the opponents options and play, players don't want too, they find it boring, feel like they are not playing and cant freely do what they wan't. So they say screw it all and end up moving into stuff and end up losing. And that's the problem. There is a time to play and a time to chill out. And players don't wanna follow those rules. yet have the urge to complain when stuff goes bad and wanna play characters, match ups, lack up sleep, being drunk, etc.

Well, to be fair, Kirihara has recently been hitting top 8 from an aggressive style. That and Dabuz himself is working on improving his aggression.

Actually, since you're here and talking about Peach... I brought up the conversation Pierce and Samsora had a while ago. Pierce started talking about aggression being the appropriate way to play the game because Samsora had said his Peach has recently become a lot more aggro, for better or worse. This was... a little before Civil War, IIRC. So the Peach convo here is super interesting, as a layman that knows nothing about about the character.

 

[Game7a1]

you guys should use cc more against if your character has a good crouch/crawl. ****'s seriously a gamechanger.

I would, but one of my mains gets decimated by Meta Knight, and it's likely worse if I crouch.

But seriously, I too find crouch and crouch cancelling in this game to be underutilized, especially for . Crouching itself can help avoid KO moves (which usually are B-airs for some relevant characters), and CC can help both survive at high percents and reduce hitstun at lower percents to get a counter hit in (or stage advantage). That said, outside of B-air, Bullet Arts, and grab, why would Crouch and CC be good against Bayonetta and Meta Knight? For the latter, wouldn't it aid him in getting more Shuttle Loop confirms? And for the former, I'm not sure how much of an impact it would make outside of grounded Witch Twist, but I know it would exploit more of her struggle to get a KO.

 

[Nah]

It's not so much that aggressive play or passive play is inherently better than the other, but rather that you want to use both when needed.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Well, to be fair, Kirihara has recently been hitting top 8 from an aggressive style. That and Dabuz himself is working on improving his aggression.

Actually, since you're here and talking about Peach... I brought up the conversation Pierce and Samsora had a while ago. Pierce started talking about aggression being the appropriate way to play the game because Samsora had said his Peach has recently become a lot more aggro, for better or worse. This was... a little before Civil War, IIRC. So the Peach convo here is super interesting, as a layman that knows nothing about about the character.

It does not matter to me if Sam hit top 8, I don't like his aggressive choices. And its costing him more then he realize. But since he hits these results it's gonna be a habit that is gonna be stuck on him. What I tend to see is times when he should be respecting the opponent. And he does not want to, being aggressive at the wrong times and getting hit for it. If you get a hit with Peach (or anyone for that matter) Hell yea go aggro. But when you can not easily get a hit, don't go in swinging. And this is what I see with Peach's metagame that I don't approve of. And this is what Sam tends to do alot. He has told me his main focus is to win and whats important. And also told me he tends to get bored/impatient when he can't seem to get a hit or stuff does not go his way. This to me is bad. And this type of play leads to people saying dumb stuff about her match ups.

 

[Poisonous]

you guys should use cc more against if your character has a good crouch/crawl. ****'s seriously a gamechanger.

What uses does it have in the Bayo MU? I've been looking into CC recently, but I couldn't find a solid use for it in the Bayo mu. For instance, even vs 0 % Wario CCing, Fair 1 is +5 (links into upb).

I do agree that CC is underutilized, but I'm curious what uses you've found for these particular MUs. These were 3 that I didn't believe it was that useful for, but I may have overlooked something.

 

[blackghost]

I would, but one of my mains gets decimated by Meta Knight, and it's likely worse if I crouch.

But seriously, I too find crouch and crouch cancelling in this game to be underutilized, especially for . Crouching itself can help avoid KO moves (which usually are B-airs for some relevant characters), and CC can help both survive at high percents and reduce hitstun at lower percents to get a counter hit in (or stage advantage). That said, outside of B-air, Bullet Arts, and grab, why would Crouch and CC be good against Bayonetta and Meta Knight? For the latter, wouldn't it aid him in getting more Shuttle Loop confirms? And for the former, I'm not sure how much of an impact it would make outside of grounded Witch Twist, but I know it would exploit more of her struggle to get a KO.

Bayo cannot ftilt, jab, grab, or easily land an air attack on a short crouch opponent. She can only dtilt or witch twist.

 

[Game7a1]

Bayo cannot ftilt, jab, grab, or easily land an air attack on a short crouch opponent. She can only dtilt or witch twist.

I meant more so Crouch Canecelling than Crouching itself. Still useful information.

 

[FeelMeUp]

What uses does it have in the Bayo MU? I've been looking into CC recently, but I couldn't find a solid use for it in the Bayo mu. For instance, even vs 0 % Wario CCing, Fair 1 is +5 (links into upb).

I do agree that CC is underutilized, but I'm curious what uses you've found for these particular MUs. These were 3 that I didn't believe it was that useful for, but I may have overlooked something.

it's a semi-successful hotfix for fastfallers that'll work a couple times in niche scenarios. out of all the characters i use that can crawl, 3/4 are fastfallers. with them I use it as a longer escape option out of things like low% fox utilt and dash attack. MK players sorta autopilot their combos and don't necessarily react to your trajectory, so getting dash attacked while you're ccing makes them miss uair followups more frequently and can potentially make you survive longer against shuttle loop. doesn't change much at the super low %s, though.
vs bayo i use it to reduce bullet stun to get ftilts/dtilts with sheik and diddy. it might have some use against low % grounded side b but i haven't tested it yet.

 

[Galaxeon]

you guys should use cc more against if your character has a good crouch/crawl. ****'s seriously a gamechanger.

Perhaps too obvious, but add to the list. Makes neutral even more complicated against characters like (some of those would otherwise be kind of easy).
At least Bayo has her amazing dtilt.

 

[|RK|]

Bayo cannot ftilt, jab, grab, or easily land an air attack on a short crouch opponent. She can only dtilt or witch twist.

--Bayonetta--

Jab 1

Fsmash (point blank only)

Nair (Bullet Arts will hit.)

Dash Attack

Bullet Climax

Uair (If she holds the input, then it will hit.)

^These are the only things we crouch.

 

[The-Technique]

--Bayonetta--

Jab 1

Fsmash (point blank only)

Nair (Bullet Arts will hit.)

Dash Attack

Bullet Climax

Uair (If she holds the input, then it will hit.)

^These are the only things we crouch.

I hate Witch Twist so much

 

[|RK|]

I hate Witch Twist so much

Lmao, I should note that many things become more difficult to hit during a crouch. So bair needs really good timing, for example. But most people would be aiming for a standing height. It's this fact that makes crouch super good against aerial moves that technically can't be crouched.

In the case of Witch Twist - it's often used out of a confirm or as an OOS punish anyways. Actually, that's something to test...

 

[TDK]

According to Zinoto's Twitter, he's training up a Rosalina at weeklies in a similar vein to ZeRo's Lucina.

I find it interesting how the top 2 Diddies seem to want to invest in Secondaries. Zinoto's choice of Rosa, a high-skill requirement character, also interests me greatly.

 

[Nu~]

According to Zinoto's Twitter, he's training up a Rosalina at weeklies in a similar vein to ZeRo's Lucina.

I find it interesting how the top 2 Diddies seem to want to invest in Secondaries. Zinoto's choice of Rosa, a high-skill requirement character, also interests me greatly.

Given that Zinoto is the primary innovator for diddy tech while ZeRo is the master of a simple, yet oppressive nuetral...it makes a lot of sense that they're picking up those respective chars.

What's super interesting however, is that top level diddy mains across the board believe that he's much weaker than commonly given credit for. Is the "counterpick meta" mentality back?

 

[|RK|]

Given that Zinoto is the primary innovator for diddy tech while ZeRo is the master of a simple, yet oppressive nuetral...it makes a lot of sense that they're picking up those respective chars.

What's super interesting however, is that top level diddy mains across the board believe that he's much weaker than commonly given credit for. Is the "counterpick meta" mentality back?

Doubt it. CP meta is generally only great if you wanna play RPS. Or if your opponent's CP, your CP, and your main are even MUs.

At the same time, it seems useful to have a strong secondary for a number of reasons, so.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Doubt it. CP meta is generally only great if you wanna play RPS. Or if your opponent's CP, your CP, and your main are even MUs.

At the same time, it seems useful to have a strong secondary for a number of reasons, so.

Sorry if I sound like a scrub/newbie, but what is RPS?

 

[The-Technique]

Sorry if I sound like a scrub/newbie, but what is RPS?

Rock paper scissors

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Kodystri said this morning he dropped lucas in lucas discord.

He made a google doc about it which is basically a twit longer.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cu-l2P601GPDzXnjsRFWsLnDIb4p1KL1BzLgb7zeyok/edit

 

[|RK|]

Kodystri said this morning he dropped lucas in lucas discord.

He made a google doc about it which is basically a twit longer.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Cu-l2P601GPDzXnjsRFWsLnDIb4p1KL1BzLgb7zeyok/edit

Wait, he had issues with people picking Cloud so he's picking up Rosalina?

Curious. I wish him all the best, of course. Though all of this makes me interested in the perception of strength and how that affects character choice.

It's like... for many Rosa players (particularly low to high level ones), they may attribute losing to Cloud/Meta Knight as "just how the MU goes." Meanwhile, because Kodystri believes Rosalina is a powerful character capable of anything, he sees losing those same MUs as an error on his part.

But when it comes to Lucas, it's the opposite - that's just how the MU goes.

This isn't me criticizing anything or anyone, btw. I don't play Lucas. Just thought that train of thought there is interesting. If you believe a character can do more, you blame yourself. If you believe they can't, you blame the character. I imagine that's part of why top tier characters have their success reinforced...

Even if Joe Schmoe switches off of Mii Swordfighter for Diddy and does worse (somehow), he'll put more work in because he is aware that the character's potential is vast. Comparatively, if you're the person leading a character's meta... you have nothing other than your own beliefs.

Makes it easy to drop a character.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Yeah, the way he worded it was very....very interesting. Noticed that almost all of what he said applies to but not as well.

 

[Poisonous]

it's a semi-successful hotfix for fastfallers that'll work a couple times in niche scenarios. out of all the characters i use that can crawl, 3/4 are fastfallers. with them I use it as a longer escape option out of things like low% fox utilt and dash attack. MK players sorta autopilot their combos and don't necessarily react to your trajectory, so getting dash attacked while you're ccing makes them miss uair followups more frequently and can potentially make you survive longer against shuttle loop. doesn't change much at the super low %s, though.
vs bayo i use it to reduce bullet stun to get ftilts/dtilts with sheik and diddy. it might have some use against low % grounded side b but i haven't tested it yet.

With heavier characters, it can do more than just let you escape Fox utilt/DA even. He's the first character that I looked at when I was thinking about CC's effectiveness.

Example: With Fox at 70%, Wario CCing a fresh early hit utilt between 0-21% will leave him at least +5 (wink wink half waft wink wink)

Another practical example is ZSS and her wonderful Nair. If Wario CC's ZSS Nair with no rage on ZSS between 0-37%, he will be -14 and able to spotdodge before her grab comes out. That leaves him +28.

Or Little Mac at 70% with KO Punch, Wario CCing dtilt at 0% leaves you at +/- 0. The second dtilt comes out frame 3 and will leave Wario at -2. KO Punch hits frame 9, but gets armor frame 8. So if you hit him with a move frame 5 or faster (Half waft or dtilt with Wario), you'll hit him before KO punch.

There are plenty of more examples, but these are a couple of practical ones.

 

[-Tornado-]

On Reddit, there's a new character results thread from January 1st to March 31st.
jigglypuff why

 

[Yonder]

On Reddit, there's a new character results thread from January 1st to March 31st.
jigglypuff why

I'd be questioning Doctor Mario, the only other, err, real Character (Idk what we consider miis anymore) with absolutely 0 points. 95% of us agree that Jigglypuff is the worst, so no real surprise there.

But I still here people say about Doc sometimes "Just because he's worse than Mario doesn't mean he's bad" these results beg to differ. Even Dark Pit has 1, when he was deemed totally outclassed by Pit.

It's because Doc is severely outclassed by Mario and there's no point in using him at all. Trading combos, recovery, and mobility for power aint ok. 2015 is over, Doc has no reps. Doc is bad unless proven otherwise (it was done with Lucina, so never say never)

 

[Zelder]

On Reddit, there's a new character results thread from January 1st to March 31st.
jigglypuff why

Come on dude, don't go and steal Das Koopa's thunder like that. He was probably going to post that here with an accompanying big write up.




(he's Barnard'sLoop in case you weren't aware)

 

[-Tornado-]

Come on dude, don't go and steal Das Koopa's thunder like that. He was probably going to post that here with an accompanying big write up.




(he's Barnard'sLoop in case you weren't aware)

Wait, he is?
oh
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Das Koopa Yeesh, sorry!

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wait, he had issues with people picking Cloud so he's picking up Rosalina?

Curious. I wish him all the best, of course. Though all of this makes me interested in the perception of strength and how that affects character choice.

It's like... for many Rosa players (particularly low to high level ones), they may attribute losing to Cloud/Meta Knight as "just how the MU goes." Meanwhile, because Kodystri believes Rosalina is a powerful character capable of anything, he sees losing those same MUs as an error on his part.

But when it comes to Lucas, it's the opposite - that's just how the MU goes.

This isn't me criticizing anything or anyone, btw. I don't play Lucas. Just thought that train of thought there is interesting. If you believe a character can do more, you blame yourself. If you believe they can't, you blame the character. I imagine that's part of why top tier characters have their success reinforced...

Even if Joe Schmoe switches off of Mii Swordfighter for Diddy and does worse (somehow), he'll put more work in because he is aware that the character's potential is vast. Comparatively, if you're the person leading a character's meta... you have nothing other than your own beliefs.

Makes it easy to drop a character.

It is different when you play very uncommon characters and don't have much fallback for who to look out for in terms of improvement.

For a Zard main, I just got the Zard discord and some top Zards but those players also tend to be one of a kind in their regions.

Not much fallback or anyone to look up to. I got one pikachu main who gives me advice and even the Zard discord, but past that. A lot of not top characters have to figure it out on there own without much help.

I got some help but for those players at the top, yeah it is really rough.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

It is different when you play very uncommon characters and don't have much fallback for who to look out for in terms of improvement.

For a Zard main, I just got the Zard discord and some top Zards but those players also tend to be one of a kind in their regions.

Not much fallback or anyone to look up to. I got one pikachu main who gives me advice and even the Zard discord, but past that. A lot of not top characters have to figure it out on there own without much help.

I got some help but for those players at the top, yeah it is really rough.

Tell me about it, I'm a zard main and I sometimes feel that I'm the only GOOD zard main when playing in modes like tourney and in some cases FG. When I see a GOOD zard player I want to keep playing against them to learn any new skills. Sadly in some cases I can't tell half the time how they're doing what they're doing (one zard that I never saw again seemed to move twice as fast as I was moving while dashing, I still have no idea how he did that on FG format!).
It's not just rough, it can be borderline annoying because you don't have ANY way to learn new techs, counters, etc because noone plays the same character you do.
I stopped playing sm4sh and am now hooked on Pokken so one thing for another I suppose.

 

[Heracr055]

Wait, he had issues with people picking Cloud so he's picking up Rosalina?

Curious. I wish him all the best, of course. Though all of this makes me interested in the perception of strength and how that affects character choice.

It's like... for many Rosa players (particularly low to high level ones), they may attribute losing to Cloud/Meta Knight as "just how the MU goes." Meanwhile, because Kodystri believes Rosalina is a powerful character capable of anything, he sees losing those same MUs as an error on his part.

But when it comes to Lucas, it's the opposite - that's just how the MU goes.

This isn't me criticizing anything or anyone, btw. I don't play Lucas. Just thought that train of thought there is interesting. If you believe a character can do more, you blame yourself. If you believe they can't, you blame the character. I imagine that's part of why top tier characters have their success reinforced...

Even if Joe Schmoe switches off of Mii Swordfighter for Diddy and does worse (somehow), he'll put more work in because he is aware that the character's potential is vast. Comparatively, if you're the person leading a character's meta... you have nothing other than your own beliefs.

Makes it easy to drop a character.

This is exactly why I dropped Dark Pit a year ago. I questioned if it was me or the character holding me back, and determined it was the latter. With Ryu I almost always feel that I made the error during the match that led to my loss. Watching Locus succeed and lose sets against Marss and Zero reinforces that notion.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'd be questioning Doctor Mario, the only other, err, real Character (Idk what we consider miis anymore) with absolutely 0 points. 95% of us agree that Jigglypuff is the worst, so no real surprise there.

But I still here people say about Doc sometimes "Just because he's worse than Mario doesn't mean he's bad" these results beg to differ. Even Dark Pit has 1, when he was deemed totally outclassed by Pit.

It's because Doc is severely outclassed by Mario and there's no point in using him at all. Trading combos, recovery, and mobility for power aint ok. 2015 is over, Doc has no reps. Doc is bad unless proven otherwise (it was done with Lucina, so never say never)

It really isn't easy when your playerbase is about as big as the one for Default Miis, because there's essentially no reason to pick Doc over Mario in a competitive scenario aside from entertainment purposes OR ( and i'm stretching quite a bit ) matchup inexperience through the many mixups in Advantage that can throw off the opponent & the various niches that come in handy against some brawlers & zoners, which Doc does fairly good against ( Among the relevant characters, i'm mildly confident that Doc does noticeably well against Mario, Fox, Lucario, Olimar, Pikachu & Villager, maybe Meta Knight as well. If you wish for me to explain why any of these matchups are decent for Doc, i'll be glad to do so, but this isn't my post's point )

However, that sort of behavior is very much destructive. You rush down to conclusions through comparing the character he's most related to, saving yourself from the reflexing that is studying the characters' option in such a way to answer the questions of " Why could Doc work in that situation? " and " Why doesn't Doc do good in these other situations? "
Almost every case of " Doc has worse mobility & combos ( which is, by the way, kind of false, but it depends on the character you're facing ) than Mario, on top of a bad recovery, therefore he's bad " demonstrates a lack of effort to understand how the character can cope with these issues. Objective data does not demonstrate much when you're aware of the amount of people that would legitimately take Doc to a competitive level. Even if they're aware of the character's qualities, the " Low tier is always a bad pick " and the constant bashing of people telling you to switch over to Mario or Luigi leads into that.

Funnily enough, this kind of behavior is very reminescent of Zero's behavior about Doc: His first video about Doc described the character as straight out bad and just incapable of competing, through mostly comparing the character to Mario. With Nairo's win over Esam at MLG, and ZeRo actually toying with Doc for the fun of it, he most likely realized the pros that Doc has going for him, which may not seem like much on paper, but in practice are very much valuable ( Flexible out of shield, excellent frame data coupled with well above average damage output on neutral moves that can unlock his advantage state, varied ways of killing & non linearity at High%, consistent advantage that's above average with extreme potential through mixups, are among Doc's pros ). As such, even to this day, ZeRo seems to think pretty highly of Doc.

One last thing: I do not want you to even believe that Doc is a good character. I just want you to have the decency & awareness to know when you do not know about a character, instead of spreading poorly thought arguments that lead into rushed conclusions that will only worsen a character's metagame in the eyes of many. It is not a sin to not know about a character enough to talk about it. You have every right in the world to share your thoughts on the characters regardless, but when this kind of thought happens to almost be taken as an universal thought, this is where the issues starts happening. Doc is not the only character that is plagued with this issue, as many other low tiers had to suffer from the thought process of " Being compared to a better character that's closely similar ". When possible, always try out these seemingly left out characters, as an experiment to help you understand them & spread the awareness about their potential niches within the metagame, as well as their issues that explain their unpopularity.

So yeah, i can only advice you to watch, or try out Doc yourself. For the sake of a better discussion, that can lead into a more polished theory, and maybe eventually, use of the character in tournament. ( That's most likely utopic though )

 

[sleepy_Nex]

I would pick doc's sexy Bair over Mario anytime.

I heard Doc does fairly well against Diddy too? 55:45 for diddy which is not much. How is this mu playing out?
MistressRemilia

 

[The-Technique]

Funnily enough, this kind of behavior is very reminescent of Zero's behavior about Doc: His first video about Doc described the character as straight out bad and just incapable of competing, through mostly comparing the character to Mario. With Nairo's win over Esam at MLG, and ZeRo actually toying with Doc for the fun of it, he most likely realized the pros that Doc has going for him, which may not seem like much on paper, but in practice are very much valuable ( Flexible out of shield, excellent frame data coupled with well above average damage output on neutral moves that can unlock his advantage state, varied ways of killing & non linearity at High%, consistent advantage that's above average with extreme potential through mixups, are among Doc's pros ). As such, even to this day, ZeRo seems to think pretty highly of Doc.

Not saying I disagree with you, but just wanna point out that ESAM molly whopped Nairo's Doc last time they played in bracket, and Nairo hasn't used him in tournament since.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I would pick doc's sexy Bair over Mario anytime.

I heard Doc does fairly well against Diddy too? 55:45 for diddy which is not much. How is this mu playing out?
MistressRemilia

Doc's non commital neutral game and ability to reflect Diddy's banana through a SH AC Cape is quite an enjoyable feat to have to make the Diddy player think twice when it comes to throwing his items around. However, Diddy's Fair is quite tough for Doc to work around if Diddy's not at least in Mid%, and it gives him a fairly significant edge in the neutral game & usually, a lead that can be somewhat difficulty to catch back to against the more defensive Diddys out there. After Mid%, most of Diddy's moves can turn out to be pretty unsafe if spaced just a bit poorly ( UpB OoS covers most of them pretty efficiently ). However, you always have to be weary & ready to face Diddy's monkey flip, which is why facing Diddy on the opposite side with your shield can turn out to be fairly good if you have the lead, as it allows you to potentially react to the Monkey Flip with a quick Back Air, while keeping your overwhelming options against Diddy's regular neutral moes ( UpB is reversable on shield )
The aforementionned consistency in Doc's non commital neutral game can also lead into Diddy struggling a bit to kill, as banana setups aren't so easy to get on Doc. However, Diddy's excellent ledge trapping against Doc can prove to be quite fatal at all times, and while Diddy isn't by any means good at edgeguarding, the angles on his Bair & Fair should make the Doc at least a bit careful when recovering, even though there's not that much to fear. On the other hand, Doc can't really edgeguard Diddy all that well due to Diddy's fairly good high recovery options & Doc's usual inability to reach Diddy in such a height. Aiming for the retreating option against Doc is once again the better option.

Overall, i wouldn't really advice to use Doc against Diddy Kong for counterpick purposes, but for all Doc players out there, it's definitly among Doc's doable top tiers matchups: It's all about finding the holes to break through the consistency & strength of a retreating/defensive Diddy Kong, whether it's by outdamaging Diddy with better raw damage output & consistent combos that are pretty on par at the very least, and the ability to sometimes kill Diddy much earlier while making him struggle to kill. It can turn out to be quite exhausting for the Diddy player to keep this game up, and allow us to win the later games.

Not saying I disagree with you, but just wanna point out that ESAM molly whopped Nairo's Doc last time they played in bracket, and Nairo hasn't used him in tournament since.

Yeah, Esam in the 2nd set they played did very well against Nairo's Doc, pressing his advantage state in the right places to make Doc struggle to get back into neutral. Nairo didn't have the character awareness to answer this adaptation coming from Esam, which is why he lost in my opinion

 

[Das Koopa]

The reddit post is minor spoilers. I'll still have write-ups & monthly % changes in the megapost here.

 

[TDK]

https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyFunOpossumNotATK

Does anyone know why Quick Attack gives Pikachu a DK-sized hurtbox?

 

[Emblem Lord]

A very obvious as well as intelligent design decision, to keep Pika from dominating neutral with an attack that would have been very abusive and hard to stop without that weakness.

But the hitbox on Marth's nair expanded because he hit Cloud's shield. Remember when you strike anything in this game, your hitbox gets bigger.

So it was a normal interaction within the rules of the game. Sucks, but oh well.

 

[Kofu]

https://clips.twitch.tv/PluckyFunOpossumNotATK

Does anyone know why Quick Attack gives Pikachu a DK-sized hurtbox?

It's done that for a while, too.

 

[The-Technique]

Surprisingly doubles Grand Finals lacked any DLC whatsoever, besides the first game which Nairo/Zero lost.

 

[Aaron1997]

Sumabato 17 is tomorrow night.

https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Pools: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...xa_MX0Jh4usr37U0gNTpdcyew/edit#gid=1123814951

The Good people.

Komorikiri
Ranai
T
9B
Earth
HIKARU
You3
Ron
Yoshidora
Edge
Ohshiitofu
Kie
Rizeasu(He plays Everything)
Ri-ma
Atelier
Kisha
Masha
taranito
Kuro
Masshi
Zaki

And a lot more

 

[MistressRemilia]

Yoshidora

Now that's a name i haven't seen in a while.
I've been quite doubtful about Yoshi, with his best player finally attending an offline tour, let's hope he does good.