Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[|RK|]

Not sure what you're not getting here. What poison is saying is Wario has the ability to weave in and out of Lucarios moves especially with the aid of platforms (assuming FD is banned like he mentioned) and not engage Lucario, plain and simple. Lucarios aura sphere with no rage is not much of a threat in this scenario, wario is too elusive in the air and is not going to be forced to fight.

So then (in theory) wario simply does not fight until waft is on Deck, and his win condition becomes to begin the fight at that moment and kill Lucario at lower percents through a setup. Obviously it's just theory craft but it's a sound strategy and one I have employed successfully as wario

Obviously you are not going to go unscathed while you are camping for waft but it's well worth it, as trying to fight Lucario straight up from the beginning is very unoptimal since regardless, you need to be ending his stocks early with waft or it's going to be a blood bath

My point is once you get the Waft, you have to fight. And Lucario doesn't have to hit every Aura Sphere. If you already have a lead, okay, I can see how that's difficult. But if you're doing it from game start, not only are you already taking at least some damage, but you need the Lucario to straight up be worse than you as you A) now need to fight him to get damage on him & B) get the Waft confirm. If you miss the Waft, you need to hope you've gotten a sizeable lead by this point, because otherwise you're only putting yourself at risk of being timed out.

Running away is great, for sure. But only if you actually never have to approach. Wario has to approach at some point to get to his win condition, yes?

 

[Guido65]

Lucina is absolutely not anywhere near as threatening as Marth in the Sheik mu. The ungodly amounts of safe cheese Marth can pull out in that matchup is disgusting.
Lucina has nothing on that level.

Here's something I've wanted to know for a while:What qualities make a character do well vs sheik exactly?

 

[Rizen]

Here's something I've wanted to know for a while:What qualities make a character do well vs sheik exactly?

I feel that Sheik does extremely well in neutral and has one of the best disadvantages too. She has little commitment in neutral, needles, grab stuff and other combo starters. Her recoveries are very hard to gimp and doing so presents significant risk, bouncing fish is great for escapes and her frame data is top 5. Her advantage isn't bad but is far from explosive.

So you need some sort of counterbalance and you have to be able to seal stocks.

This is an open statement but for example, Ding dong/checkmate mean 1 neutral win from DK/Robin is as good as several from Sheik and mean death at relatively early %s. One way to balance light Sheik's fantastic yet low-ish rewards is to have very high rewards on your character. And good enough setups to make them happen at least some of the time.

Another example is to play a different game than Sheik wants to- and be good enough at it. Marth for example out-reaches her and it becomes a battle of can Marth maintain his spacing? Marth also has very explosive tipper reward (his tipper Fsmash is stronger than DDD's!) and is hell to land against/great advantage. Link on the other hand plays a different game but Sheik can force her game so it doesn't matter as much and Link does poorly.

So it's about risk/reward with enough consistency to not get completely owned/outcamped by sheik. It's like roulette in the sense that you will lose most of the time but if the payoff for winning is good enough it can offset that. Better skill and/or how good your character is at what they win at means you can slightly increase the "odds".

 

[FeelMeUp]

Here's something I've wanted to know for a while: What qualities make a character do well vs sheik exactly?

If you have numerous characteristics the matchup becomes increasingly doable. However, some have more extreme versions than others(Peach is a lot harder to kill than Bowser, ofc). Others have characteristics so bad that their positives become easier to ignore. Mewtwo's poor data and survivability, Peach's terrible time off the ledge, Jiggs' poor anti-shield options, Luigi's godawful approach, etc.

• Living forever due to a specific height/move/weight/fallspeed combination that makes it hard to kill them even in setup %s:
• Difficult to ledgetrap, edgeguard or gimp reliably:
• Fat:
• Floaty:
• Hard to outreward because of how difficult they are to combo:
• Devastating punish game:
• A high amount of damage per hit and can force trades:
• Good with stage control and won't let you get it back for free:
• Good comeback mechanic:
• Heavily rewarded for surviving and can abuse the fact that Sheik doesn't have rage:

 

[Skeeter Mania]

If you have numerous characteristics the matchup becomes increasingly doable. However, some have more extreme versions than others(Peach is a lot harder to kill than Bowser, ofc). Others have characteristics so bad that their positives become easier to ignore. Mewtwo's poor data and survivability, Peach's terrible time off the ledge, Jiggs' poor anti-shield options, Luigi's godawful approach, etc.

• Living forever due to a specific height/move/weight/fallspeed combination that makes it hard to kill them even in setup %s:
• Difficult to ledgetrap, edgeguard or gimp reliably:
• Fat:
• Floaty:
• Hard to outreward because of how difficult they are to combo:
• Devastating punish game:
• A high amount of damage per hit and can force trades:
• Good with stage control and won't let you get it back for free:
• Good comeback mechanic:
• Heavily rewarded for surviving and can abuse the fact that Sheik doesn't have rage:

Wouldn't Luigi also fall under "Devastating punish game"?

What about other characters? What tier would they fall in against Sheik?

 

[sleepy_Nex]

@[RK]

I don't think that it is really that big of a deal that Wario has to attack at some point in the game. Non aura Lucario doesn't have the greatest neutral tbh. He is a lowtier without Aura and gets better with aura but Wario only has to get him to 50% while Lucario has to do more damage with a Neutral that Wario can beat rather consistent.

 

[FeelMeUp]

Wouldn't Luigi also fall under "Devastating punish game"

yeah. many characters have a devastating punish game against her. i'm avoiding listing out every character it applies to because that lends itself to more inaccuracies.

What about other characters? What tier would they fall in against Sheik?

not sure what you mean by this, but
most sheik players have issues with characters countering their style rather than countering Sheik.
I, for example, love fighting but dislike playing against and would rather opt for Diddy instead.
VoiD has less trouble with while Mr. R has less trouble with
the matchups each individual sheik dislikes or thinks she loses to heavily depends on their playstyle. not necessarily using the traits to show matchups she has trouble in, but they could be used that way. you should look at them more as ways to examine each sheik's playstyle and figure out which trait you can abuse.

 

[Poisonous]

My point is once you get the Waft, you have to fight. And Lucario doesn't have to hit every Aura Sphere. If you already have a lead, okay, I can see how that's difficult. But if you're doing it from game start, not only are you already taking at least some damage, but you need the Lucario to straight up be worse than you as you A) now need to fight him to get damage on him & B) get the Waft confirm. If you miss the Waft, you need to hope you've gotten a sizeable lead by this point, because otherwise you're only putting yourself at risk of being timed out.

Running away is great, for sure. But only if you actually never have to approach. Wario has to approach at some point to get to his win condition, yes?

Wario's neutral isn't amazing, but it's good enough to to get in on aure-less Lucario a few times. It doesn't matter how many times Lucario hits Wario while Wario is looking for the waft either, he isn't going to kill him without a hard commitment - one that is punishable with waft. Wario doesn't have to just blow waft on a read, he can afford to wait for a confirm. a nair, a falling upair, a bike, a missed tech, a forced recovery, etc. Even if Wario whiffs the waft for some odd reason, he still has time to get a second waft unless he literally took 3+ minutes. Even a half waft can end Lucario before aura is too threatening. If the Lucario just sits back and throws aura spheres at 0%, none of them are going to hit without the Wario dropping hit controller. If the Lucario was too passive while the Wario was waiting for waft and waft is landed, the match is already over.

 

[Deleted member]

CEO: Dreamland pools are out

E1: VoiD vs Mew2King , Day in third. Given the high chance of M2K dropping, Promaelia or Dandy Penguin could advance.
E2: ZeRo vs DSS , Black Yoshi in third
E3: Marss vs Rideae , Zex in third
E4: Mr. E vs MVD , Saj in third
F1: ANTi vs Dyr , Raito in third
F2: Rich Brown vs Static Manny , Zephyr in third
F3: Salem vs Sharpy , WonderBread in third
F4: Dabuz vs UtopianRay , JJROCKETS in third
G1: Larry Lurr vs Seagull Joe , Cashmere in third
G2: 6WX vs Captain Zack , V115 in third
G3: Nairo vs DOOM! , Player-1 in third
G4: Tweek vs Nicko , 8BitMan in third
H1: ESAM vs NAKAT , Dark Wizzy in third
H2: Fatality vs ZD , Leo Heart in third
H3: Samsora vs DJ Jack , Xzax in third
H4: Mr. R vs ScAtt , Sol in third

I wonder how Nicko will do vs. Tweek.

After losing to Kome at Civil War, Tweek could've easily chalked up on the Shulk MU. Not sure how much DK experience Nicko has either.

 

[|RK|]

@[RK]

I don't think that it is really that big of a deal that Wario has to attack at some point in the game. Non aura Lucario doesn't have the greatest neutral tbh. He is a lowtier without Aura and gets better with aura but Wario only has to get him to 50% while Lucario has to do more damage with a Neutral that Wario can beat rather consistent.

Wario also doesn't have a great neutral. Meanwhile, Lucario has decent conversions at low percents and really good grounded movement from his dash dances/foxtrots. I can see Lucario having to get in more often... but I can also see him achieving that without much difficulty.

I remember when I asked Reflex about his placement of Kirby on his MU chart, and he said that it was because of Kirby's size and decent grounded movement that made him hard to pin down (Kirby's dash dance is actually a good speed, fun facts). Lucario certainly doesn't have the size advantage, but he does have a better foxtrot and disjoints to beat out Wario's spacing. Even if Wario can camp Lucario out, getting to the point where it's a smart move isn't going to be easy at all.

Wario's neutral isn't amazing, but it's good enough to to get in on aure-less Lucario a few times. It doesn't matter how many times Lucario hits Wario while Wario is looking for the waft either, he isn't going to kill him without a hard commitment - one that is punishable with waft. Wario doesn't have to just blow waft on a read, he can afford to wait for a confirm. a nair, a falling upair, a bike, a missed tech, a forced recovery, etc. Even if Wario whiffs the waft for some odd reason, he still has time to get a second waft unless he literally took 3+ minutes. Even a half waft can end Lucario before aura is too threatening. If the Lucario just sits back and throws aura spheres at 0%, none of them are going to hit without the Wario dropping hit controller. If the Lucario was too passive while the Wario was waiting for waft and waft is landed, the match is already over.

Even if that's the case, fact is Wario has to fight Lucario unless he already has a lead. And at the point Wario is trying to go for the Waft confirm, that is approaching Lucario in some fashion, he has to fight. Because you can keep dancing around them if you'd like, but you're going to have to get in to do it.

Tbh, camping at 0 is generally a terrible idea unless you have a projectile. Eventually you have to fight to do damage. Cloud can afford to do this because his neutral actually improves with Limit, but even they often do it to force approaches they can punish at game start. Wario is still the same character.

There's actually a video of Reflex going to game 5 against Dog w/ Hips at a tournament. Reflex camps a lot, for sure. But only after his lead was absolute. That's a great time to do it - then they can't do anything and they have to approach you. But at 0%? I guess if you want to start playing the game w/ 4 minutes & Waft.

 

[Poisonous]

Wario also doesn't have a great neutral. Meanwhile, Lucario has decent conversions at low percents and really good grounded movement from his dash dances/foxtrots. I can see Lucario having to get in more often... but I can also see him achieving that without much difficulty.

I remember when I asked Reflex about his placement of Kirby on his MU chart, and he said that it was because of Kirby's size and decent grounded movement that made him hard to pin down (Kirby's dash dance is actually a good speed, fun facts). Lucario certainly doesn't have the size advantage, but he does have a better foxtrot and disjoints to beat out Wario's spacing. Even if Wario can camp Lucario out, getting to the point where it's a smart move isn't going to be easy at all.



Even if that's the case, fact is Wario has to fight Lucario unless he already has a lead. And at the point Wario is trying to go for the Waft confirm, that is approaching Lucario in some fashion, he has to fight. Because you can keep dancing around them if you'd like, but you're going to have to get in to do it.

Tbh, camping at 0 is generally a terrible idea unless you have a projectile. Eventually you have to fight to do damage. Cloud can afford to do this because his neutral actually improves with Limit, but even they often do it to force approaches they can punish at game start. Wario is still the same character.

There's actually a video of Reflex going to game 5 against Dog w/ Hips at a tournament. Reflex camps a lot, for sure. But only after his lead was absolute. That's a great time to do it - then they can't do anything and they have to approach you. But at 0%? I guess if you want to start playing the game w/ 4 minutes & Waft.

For what it's worth, Reflex agrees with this strategy. The set that you reference, Reflex vs Dog w/ Hips doesn't go to game 5, it actually goes to game 6. Reflex lost to a random Bayonetta and he 6-0'd Dog w/ hips in grands without employing this strategy. He says he did so because he significantly outskilled Dog w/ Hips and did not need to employ this strategy. Wario does not play like Cloud. You can ask Reflex his thoughts on the MU if you'd like, but it's pretty much going to be what I'm stating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPzRTQlaXbQ the VOD in question. Reflex himself would probably say that it's not the best set to use to look at the mu as there is a skill gap between the two.

 

[DanGR]

For what it's worth, Reflex agrees with this strategy. The set that you reference, Reflex vs Dog w/ Hips doesn't go to game 5, it actually goes to game 6. Reflex lost to a random Bayonetta and he 6-0'd Dog w/ hips in grands without employing this strategy. He says he did so because he significantly outskilled Dog w/ Hips and did not need to employ this strategy. Wario does not play like Cloud. You can ask Reflex his thoughts on the MU if you'd like, but it's pretty much going to be what I'm stating.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPzRTQlaXbQ the VOD in question. Reflex himself would probably say that it's not the best set to use to look at the mu as there is a skill gap between the two.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oehyZOojao

 

[|RK|]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oehyZOojao

Yup, this is the one! Sorry, didn't realize they had played multiple times. Game 5 is campy af.

EDIT: After Reflex had taken a solid lead, that is.

 

[The-Technique]

I wonder how Nicko will do vs. Tweek.

After losing to Kome at Civil War, Tweek could've easily chalked up on the Shulk MU. Not sure how much DK experience Nicko has either.

Sheesh, this is almost as bad as the time Nicko had to fight Dath in pools. It would suck for both Nicko and Tweek to lose that early in tournament.

 

[Aaron1997]

Be aware that the last 2 Major's has had a Japanese player go very far with a underrepresented Character.

Frostbite: Tsu

Civil War: T

Dreamland: Raito???

 

[RonNewcomb]

Be aware that the last 2 Major's has had a Japanese player go very far with a underrepresented Character.

Frostbite: Tsu

Civil War: T

Dreamland: Raito???

nah that's just American majors being really inconsistent again.

 

[Nemesis561]

yeah. many characters have a devastating punish game against her. i'm avoiding listing out every character it applies to because that lends itself to more inaccuracies.

not sure what you mean by this, but
most sheik players have issues with characters countering their style rather than countering Sheik.
I, for example, love fighting but dislike playing against and would rather opt for Diddy instead.
VoiD has less trouble with while Mr. R has less trouble with
the matchups each individual sheik dislikes or thinks she loses to heavily depends on their playstyle. not necessarily using the traits to show matchups she has trouble in, but they could be used that way. you should look at them more as ways to examine each sheik's playstyle and figure out which trait you can abuse.

This is off topic, I'm more of a lurker but I'm curious, do you attend tournaments, if so where and do you have any notable placings or something? You seem really knowledgeable and people seem to respect your opinion so I've always been curious about that

 

[Kofu]

nah that's just American majors being really inconsistent again.

Can't really say that Japanese majors are any better. If anything, it seems to demonstrate that most of the cast has a fighting chance to go far with enough skill and practice (and, frankly, a good bracket).

 

[FeelMeUp]

This is off topic, I'm more of a lurker but I'm curious, do you attend tournaments, if so where and do you have any notable placings or something? You seem really knowledgeable and people seem to respect your opinion so I've always been curious about that

nah, college screws my time and i don't have a car.
houston locals are always an hour minimum away from my location at any given time and when I'm not in college, i work to keep myself in it.
studying smash and mentally improving myself through thinking about the game 24/7 is the reason i know the things you see here.
maybe this summer i'll try to get more exp. showed up at a local during spring break and took GrimTurtle's Bayo to last stock last hit(3 stock) despite rarely ever playing the MU, so i don't think placing well should be too difficult.

 

[Das Koopa]

Be aware that the last 2 Major's has had a Japanese player go very far with a underrepresented Character.

Frostbite: Tsu

Civil War: T

Dreamland: Raito???

raito's probably not going very far

Spoiler: ...

this is a jinx post

 

[TDK]

raito's probably not going very far

Spoiler: ...

this is a jinx post

I'm sorry, but by acknowledging it as a jinx you've thereby cancelled the jinx.

Don't you know the rules of Jinxing?

This happens with me every time. I can jinx whatever I want until I realize I'm doing it. Then I'm powerless. Same applies to you.

 

[chaos11011]

I know Japanese players doing well = "overhyping bad characters", and a lot of people don't like that, but let's stop downplaying the success of others. I see it a lot in this thread when a Japanese mid-to-low tier main does well.

Other than that, I'm eager to see Raito do well. At Genesis 4, he got stopped by Raffi-X (an extremely hard MU) and a Duck Hunt teamkill by You3. He didn't get enough exposure. His decision making is stellar and he is the best at using Can for stage presence (leaving it there for the threat of it going off, as opposed to launching it all the time).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

At Genesis 4, he got stopped by Raffi-X (an extremely hard MU)

Could I ask why ROB/Duck Hunt is such a bad MU?

 

[chaos11011]

Could I ask why ROB/Duck Hunt is such a bad MU?

Smart ROB players can utilize the laser as a get out of jail free card. It goes through and either destroys (gunman, pigeon) or immobilizes (Can) Duck Hunt's set ups. Furthermore, ROBs characteristics prove as an annoyance to DH. He is heavy, so its hard to secure kills with DHs consistent kill set ups (You3 combo and twist can set ups at 80 - 100 percent), his combos cannot be broken out of with Can, including beep boop, and ROB Nair is a hard move to challenge, as DHs kit contains no real disjoint to challenge it and it flicks away Can / breaks pigeon and gunmen. Nair saves ROB from being harrassed by projectiles, which is the problem most heavies face (DK)

Gyro is also super annoying and can be thrown on reaction to any projectile spawn.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Tell me how Peach consistently stops Cloud, Marth and MK.

Then we can talk about her rising.

Oh, she can't?

Exactly.

Challenge accepted. When it comes to peach match ups, it is all based on average play. People playing this character like she is shiek. Alot are aggressive with her and you simply can not be like that. You go aggro when you get a hit. If you can't get anymore hits or neutral resets, The player have to chill out and find/bait an opening where they can get a hit or gain control to start pressure. They have to chill out and not do stuff that leaves them open. Alot really don't do that. People wanna force their way in or a hit cause they are not patient. Her moveset does not allow her to go in whenever she wants and has to respect alot of stuff. Which people tend to not wanna do.

I don't know about you but if I judge something, I like to judge it at high level when both sides know their options. Not average typical play. Which is what people always go on thus I see match up charts with her that are not good to me. Or people saying stuff about Peach that is not true.

Wanna say I am bias and don't know what I am talking about? Pick one of those three characters for me to rip apart first. Then go watch Peach players fight said character and you tell me if they are actually doing what I said to make things easier on themselves. And also pay close attention to why they get hit/lose. Bet I'll prove you and anyone who thinks like that wrong.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Peach cannot consistently win neutral vs Marth on a tool vs tool basis.

The peach has to be stronger or the King of Altea cleans her mushroom kingdom.

You have known me long enough to know I base my analysis on tools. Period.

 

[Aaron1997]

Dark.Pch vs Emblem lord Debates? This will be fun

:Grab's Popcorn:

 

[Rizen]

Are there any ROB players/games I should look up on youtube? What are ROB's top tier MUs and what holds ROB back in your opinion.

I know little about the character.

Dark.Pch vs Emblem lord Debates? This will be fun

:Grab's Popcorn:

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Just going to put these here. They might help. At least a little.

https://ssbworld.com/
SmashVods

 

[chaos11011]

Are there any ROB players/games I should look up on youtube? What are ROB's top tier MUs and what holds ROB back in your opinion.

I know little about the character.

Raffi-X is a ROB from New England who is considered to be one of the best (or the best) ROBs in the business. Check Game Underground vods of him against Marss, Pugwest, local PR Clouds/Bayos/Sonics. His most recent performance was Bean Town Lean House (found on YT, just search that) last weekend, in which he got 2nd, losing to Koolaid. He also had a recorded set against ESAM at Civil War and was at the last KTAR.

I'm not a ROB main, so I'm not sure of his spread.

 

[Dark.Pch]

Peach cannot consistently win neutral vs Marth on a tool vs tool basis.

The peach has to be stronger or the King of Altea cleans her mushroom kingdom.

You have known me long enough to know I base my analysis on tools. Period.

If I am holding a turnip vs Marth, he can not really have the advantage in Neutral. Marth can not freely swing for he can be left open for a turnip hit. I don't have to get close to you to rack up damage.The Marth player on the other hand does. Good use of projectiles make it hard for characters to just freely go in as they please and push a button to get a hit.

Now what high level Peach have you seen beat a Marth if good turnip play? What most wanna do is move in and about throwing about space air attacks. Peach is not winning any spacing wars vs Marth. People go on so much about how turnips got nerfed and cant do much with it. Thats because players just toss it and hope that it works. Once you toss that turnip, thats when whatever advantage state you had is gone. Now Marth can freely get close to Peach and not have to worry about something in the way. He can now freely space and corner Peach and start his pressure which Peach can do anything about to punish.

Ever seen a diddy have a banana then sit in shield for a few secs then just toss it? He is just doing it hope it hits then auto pilots grab/upsmash. He is not checking to see has the opponent is move, attacking or reacting to decided when is the right time to toss it or keeping holding it. Projectiles buts people on auto defense cause people do not wanna get hit with it. Alot of players do not take advantage of that and just toss it hoping it hits. It's the same with Peach players with turnips.

Now before people get the wrong idea, I never said Peach neutral is better then Marth. His is better over all because it really does not change and he can be safe. Peach's changes when she has a turnip in hand and when she does not. With one People can not just go in on her. Without one, people have an easier time to get close to her. This is where she has to rely on a good mix of QFR and short hop air dodges, to be hard to hit and bait/created openings to get a hit.

Thats not domination for Marth dude. Also Peach can be a very hard character to hit. She has good movement and evasion. I would be on your side with this one if she was free to hit. Lil Mac has a better neutral then Peach, and she beats him. Neutral does not always mean one is always gonna take a lose. You should know it takes more then that. Or Else Tsu would not have nearly won that tournament where he almost beat Zero.

 

[MistressRemilia]

ROB is a weird character, and one that is kind of unfortunate in a way, but let explain why i think so:

You see, as a zoner, ROB is gifted with a few good tools that most zoners don't have: The ability to kill reliably out of such a trivial move as a grab. Despite the zoners' focus on... well, zoning, this makes most characters who are fighting ROB more prone to playing around ROB's grab, which is beneficial for ROB as it will allow him to gain stage control through his zoning options.
However, one nasty flaw that i believe hurts ROB & explains his struggle against faster characters & rushdown characters is that his zoning feels insufficient. Don't get me wrong, the zoning moves ROB has at its disposal are pretty good, but they're just not enough, and more often than enough, there will be a fair amount of holes in a ROB's zoning & walling attempt because of the fact that one of the two zoning tools that ROB has is an throwable item, which can hang on to the stage for quite a bit, without the possibility for ROB to take it back. So, as you can deduce, all it takes for ROB to get rushed down is a poor decision when throwing out the Gyro, which will weaken his zoning, and the rest of the character's toolset just isn't enough when it comes to keeping the opponent out, with all the flaws that most zoners have: Poor out of shield options & a bad disadvantage state overall.
These cons lead into the seemingly pessimistic thought that ROB loses a majority, if not all matchups against Top Tiers. Most top tiers are fast & strong enough to penetrate ROB's walling attempt reliably & get a reward that will often be superior to what ROB would usually get through the few times he caught you, or with his respectable advantage state.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Stop giving me bad comparisons and logical fallacies. You compared Lucario the walking comeback factor to Peach, a character who is not even half as explosive. Little Mac has GLARING flaws.

Turnips are not scary enough. They never have been. They are not enough to mitigate the fact that Marth is safer and stronger.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Could I ask why ROB/Duck Hunt is such a bad MU?

ROB's laser has transcendent priority because it is a laser move, which allows him to hit Duck Hunt no matter how many projectiles he has set up. Gyro can also cut through his zoning tools as well. When ROB does get in, it's easy for him to out-damage Duck Hunt with his A moves and grab profit. At high percents, ROB's strong kill power makes it easy for him to close out stocks while Duck Hunt cannot. The icing on the cake is ROB having one of the best and most consistent meteor smashes in the game against a character with probably the most exploitable non-Little Mac recovery.

 

[FeelMeUp]

turnips suck.
if peach pulls one marth can just take half the stage away and force her to stay in the corner/in the air for most of her stock with very little counterplay allowed. she's an alright character, but getting trashed by and being too difficult to use as a cp doesn't look good despite her good-ish matchups against .

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes, Marth isn't even her hardest match. Meta knight THRASHES her. Totally breaks her zone. Edgeguards her hard. Ladder combos hurt even if they do not kill. She cannot trap him or edgeguard him well.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

turnips suck.
if peach pulls one marth can just take half the stage away and force her to stay in the corner/in the air for most of her stock with very little counterplay allowed. she's an alright character, but getting trashed by and being too difficult to use as a cp doesn't look good despite her good-ish matchups against .

So I'm guessing unviable?

 

[Dark.Pch]

Stop giving me bad comparisons and logical fallacies. You compared Lucario the walking comeback factor to Peach, a character who is not even half as explosive. Little Mac has GLARING flaws.

Turnips are not scary enough. They never have been. They are not enough to mitigate the fact that Marth is safer and stronger.

I'm not gonna let this one slide from you. You go on about Neutral as to why Peach can not kick his butt on the reg. I used those examples to let you know that neutral does not mean everything. Stop using "flaws" do dodge the point. And Face it, Turnips make you respect the player. You can not just go in and do as you please. I don't care if you are not afraid. That does not mean a thing to me AT ALL. What you do have to do is respect a player when they have one in hand, or else you gonna give them free damage and end up being in bad situations alot. If you can not freely get in on me to start your stuff or land a hit on me, that is a problem. This does not say to me Peach can not whip his butt on the reg.

You really think power means everything? F Marth's power. Boswer and Ganon and one of the most hard hitting characters in this game. And alot of characters out shine them and have alot of hard match ups. "Thats because they have flaws" Don't hit me with that again if you are even thinking about it. Cause this just prove it's not all about one thing and trying to dodge the point. I don't care how much stronger and safe he is. He aint some god that can't be touched and with nothing to worry about. And stop judging things. If you can tell me just how Marth is suppose to play vs Peach and the options he can and can't deal with/look out for to back what you say up, then I will gladly let you have this one. These simple answers over character mentality and living in 2014 where people think Peach can't do anything needs to dip. Cause I can gladly and quickly tell you how Peach is suppose to play, respect, move, position and attack vs Marth to whip is butt.

And you known me long enough I do not banwagon what people say in the smash community to sound cool and be one with the crowd. I'm serious about this and do my homework/research/labbing/experience/frame data. I don't judge stuff by the cover without opening the book and actually reading it. Cause to be honest that's how you coming off to me right now. So do tell so I don't misunderstand. How does Marth do this to a point that I might as well drop my controller when running into a top Marth player?

Yes, Marth isn't even her hardest match. Meta knight THRASHES her. Totally breaks her zone. Edgeguards her hard. Ladder combos hurt even if they do not kill. She cannot trap him or edgeguard him well.

You judging stuff on Peach players who have no clue how to fight meta knight at all. You seriously gonna sit here and tell me Peach players know how to deal with meta knight and and out. Like seriously? This is what I am talking about. Look at what you are doing right now. You are not doing any type of homework, research or asking question. You see something not knowing much about it from one end and just go with it. Just going on about what others say/see. Im sorry dude, but you are making this way too easy for me right now.

 

[TDK]

Mega Smash Mondays 93 (87 Entrants) (SoCal)

1st: Elegant
2nd: K9Sbruce
3rd: Aarvark
4th: VoiD

Both K9 and Aarvark took a set from VoiD, 3-1 and 3-2 respectively.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

If I am holding a turnip vs Marth, he can not really have the advantage in Neutral. Marth can not freely swing for he can be left open for a turnip hit. I don't have to get close to you to rack up damage.The Marth player on the other hand does. Good use of projectiles make it hard for characters to just freely go in as they please and push a button to get a hit.

How can he not? By pulling a turnip you've just limited your options to throwing/dropping the turnip, using specials, shielding, or mixing up movement, and turnips aren't exactly threatening. And you say this like playing neutral is just constantly throwing out buttons in someone's face. And this doesn't even take stage positioning into account either.

Situation: Peach pulls a turnip. Marth stands there and does nothing. He waits for you to make a choice so he can react to it. How do you respond?