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Official 4BR Tier List V3 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

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Emblem Lord

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Long walls of nothing. Proving nothing. Saying absolutely nothing.

I already stated that marth's tools are superior overall in neutral in this match. You agreed. Now you say I don't do my homework.

Make up your mind.

I made counter points to when you brought up Lucario and Mac. I did not go into extreme detail because at this point why Lucario can win and Macs flaws are common knowledge. You want me to write a flippin essay on that as if you are completely ignorant of the meta? I did not wish to insult your intelligence.

Give me something of substance. We had this same debate in brawl. It went just like this. Guess how it ended? The same way this one will end. Because you claim to talk about tools, but you in fact ignore tools/data/research and EVERYTHING of substance.
 
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Dark.Pch

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How can he not? By pulling a turnip you've just limited your options to throwing/dropping the turnip, using specials, shielding, or mixing up movement, and turnips aren't exactly threatening. And you say this like playing neutral is just constantly throwing out buttons in someone's face. And this doesn't even take stage positioning into account either.

Situation: Peach pulls a turnip. Marth stands there and does nothing. He waits for you to make a choice so he can react to it. How do you respond?
What? If I am gonna get a turnip at a range I cant get punish Or give up control/stage position. And having ones not limit my options to shield/move, Peach have one of the best options in the game with QFR. Doing that with a turnip in hand makes it hard for the opponent to decide when to attack. Its even worst for the opponent when it is mixed with short hop air dodges. It also makes it hard for the opponent to guess what I am gonna do. Specials don't mean anything since Side-b is not even a thing to be doing alot to begin with. And toad is a hard read. And I am not gonna Up-B just kicks a giggles. I'm also not gonna just the turnip for no reason. If I am gonna toss it, its cause I see a pattern when I can get you, or force a defensive option where I can control of the match. And as I said earlier, I do not care if turnips do not scare you. Turnips make you respect the player and not just freely go in as you please for you can be left open for a hit.

And for your situation, What I decided to do is based on what the player has been doing. I'm not gonna play all marth players the same way. I could go near one player and he would side step to an attack. Another marth player I go near and he jumps to an attack. Another player I go near rolls away. What I decided to do is based on the players actions. The marth player could wait for a second then go in swinging. Another one would wait then run back, short hop fast fall, then go in with a Fair. One could jump, land Dtilt, then do nothing for a sec, then space a fair thinking I would roll. So what I would do Is based on what I have been seeing since the match started. All the data fishing I have done. I'm not gonna give you an answer to that cause that would mean I would do that to EVERY Marth. Which I would not cause not everyone thinks or react the same way to said situations present to them. There is no right or wrong answer here since its all a guessing game. Even if it's an educated, it could still be wrong cause it is a GUESS from both sides.
 

Illuminose

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it's definitely a gross overstatement to say that peach gets washed by marth, though it has very little to do with turnips. although on paper marth does wall out peach easily, you have to account for how top peach movement allows you to play around that. in that matchup, you can use a lot of noncommittal sh air dodge and floats outside marth's range to bait and find opportunities to get in. sometimes it will still be difficult, but you really just need the creativity and reactions to find openings because peach can do so much to make her options ambiguous. due to her microspacing, peach is good at punishing marth for throwing out moves and baiting him to throw out moves that he can punish. marth could back up and only punish peach reactively, but there's only so much stage he can forfeit before he's cornered. it's pretty hard to combo peach with marth too so it's not like you get tons of reward for stuffing peach out. in up-close situations, peach is very solid at beating marth's options. peach is also very effective at edgeguarding marth as well as covering his options at the ledge. overall, peach can find trouble creating openings in neutral, but she has the options to prevent marth from hitting her easily as well and to make it a much closer fight in neutral, while when marth is off the stage or at the ledge peach can capitalize. this is actually the first time i've seen anyone suggest the matchup is severely in marth's favor so i'm a bit confused, all of the top peaches and marths agree that the matchup is either even or a slight disadvantage, so i don't exactly see how this blatantly vanilla theorycraft can claim much legitimacy.

pugwest vs samsora | there's multiple examples of close sets between lingling and pugwest (there's also a close mr.e vs samsora and a not-so-close fuwa vs kie but the sets are really old)
 

Emblem Lord

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Show me where I said wash.

I said she does not have advantage. I said she has several problem match ups.

Where is the lie?

Marth has advantage in the match.

Pick that statement apart and tell me why I am full of ****.
 

Dark.Pch

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Long walls of nothing. Proving nothing. Saying absolutely nothing.

I already stated that marth's tools are superior overall in neutral in this match. You agreed. Now you say I don't do my homework.

Make up your mind.

I made counter points to when you brought up Lucario and Mac. I did not go into extreme detail because at this point why Lucario can win and Macs flaws are common knowledge. You want me to write a flippin essay on that as if you are completely ignorant of the meta? I did not wish to insult your intelligence.

Give me something of substance. We had this same debate in brawl. It went just like this. Guess how it ended? The same way this one will end. Because you claim to talk about tools, but you in fact ignore tools/data/research and EVERYTHING of substance.
I'm sorry dude. We homies and all and I am not here to insult you cause you are toooooo far from stupid. But your short answers aint proven a thing and you keep trying to dodge the point I am making. So Im gonna make this very clear and simple to you. You first bring up how Peach can not put Marth down on a reg. Your reason cause of neutral. I used the mac/lucario explain to show neutral is not all that matters. The hell with the cons/flaws to dodge this one. There is more to it then just neutral. That's the point. if you can see that and still wanna stick to Marth Neutral being so god like here, Peach can't but him down on the reg, Idk what to tell you anymore.

I agreed with you that Marth Neutral is better and even explained why. So I gave you that one. What I am not giving you is that being a solid reason to Peach not putting him down alot. Get it now? I'm not here insulted you and agreed with one point you made. yet you can't show me the same respect here? If you really think just cause of his neutral and power Peach can not put him down alot, then I will tell you for this part right here, you do need to do your homework on my character/match up. Because you don't know How Peach on her end makes it hard for Marth. And if you wanna take that as an insult then go ahead. Idk how you win or shut down debates here, but with this character vs me I'm not gonna let that slide. And have other users here back you up to make me feel otherwise or feel like I am wrong. 100 against one. Don't mean anything to me.

And you must have really forgot who I am if you tell me I don't pay attention or take into account tools/data/research and everything of substance. I do to my research, I study frame data. When I go on about match ups I look at it from both sides fully, not like you with Peach vs Mk, saying that match is terrible not knowing a darn thing on how Peach is even suppose to fight mk along with the others in the community (Go ahead, dodge this bullet too). You see a Peach do bad being lost as hell in the fight and was thinking thats how it goes without questioning stuff. And yet you say this to me? Really dude? If someone ask me how Peach does a certain match up I don't know, I don't answer example (Peach Vs DHD, ROB,MegaMan). I refuse to answer at all. I don't even give them small tips cause I'm not sure how good it will be until I play it alot and understand it from both sides. So lets get that thought out that I don't take into account or study things out of your head dude. Cause here is another thing you don't know. You have no clue what so ever how much I lab this game for hours trying to figure stuff out to make this character better others to go nutz in tournies with. You have no clue how much I learn and focus on other characters to see how they work and their frame data/tools. Then apply it to Peach to see the best way to deal with it, wether the match is in my favor or not. How much notes I have, Frame by frame pics/vids of things to figure things out. I do this daily when I have time out the day.
 

Emblem Lord

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But see that is my entire argument. His neutral is stronger and therefore he will enter advantage more often. You agreed.

Debate over.

Why do I need to debate when you conceded to my main point?

You would need to argue that her other traits offset that loss in neutral. Which is a very hard sell.
 
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Floor

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(sigh)
And so begins another long-drawn out pointless argument that shouldn't even exist in the first place. Peach has tools to win the neutral over Marth and Lucina. Fact. Marth and Lucina also have tools to win the neutral over Peach. Fact. Peach totally has the potential to rise. She has incredibly intricate combos and infinites and probably the highest potential out of the entire roster. Her weaker neutral (compared to Marth and Lucina) is compensated by her own combos and infinites, clutch factor (turnip pull), and mobility.
 

verbatim

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turnips suck.
if peach pulls one marth can just take half the stage away and force her to stay in the corner/in the air for most of her stock with very little counterplay allowed. she's an alright character, but getting trashed by :4metaknight::4cloud2::4diddy::4marth:and being too difficult to use as a cp doesn't look good despite her good-ish matchups against :4luigi::4mario::4fox::rosalina:.
I wouldn't put Marth in the same category as the other three "hard losses", and even then Cloud's not as bad as MK or Diddy.

You can lose a matchup and have it not be an absolute "wash", see, Diddy Kong Mario, or Diddy Kong Fox, or Diddy Kong Pikachu. Basically never count out Diddy Kong.

At least in America, the recent matches that I can find are a bo5 2 stock format 3-2 win by Samsora over Pugwest at ZeRo saga and a close bo3 3 stock format 2-1 win by Mr E. over Samsora at SFC 47. I'd need to watch them in greater detail but it looks like Peach can hold her on in the neutral enough for her superior combo game to make up for her lesser range.
 

Dark.Pch

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But see that is my entire argument. His neutral is stronger and therefore he will enter advantage more often. You agreed.

Debate over.

Why do I need to debate when you conceded to my main point?

You would need to argue that her other traits offset that loss in neutral. Which is a very hard sell.
Because I am clearly telling you the fact that marth is better in neutral does not mean:

" Tell me how Peach consistently stops Cloud, Marth and MK.

Then we can talk about her rising.

Oh, she can't?

Exactly."

And I am not gonna say something without explaining my reasons for it. Which I did. So yea this be done with. Your reason on neutral and power does not mean she can not consistently stop Marth. Now if you wanna still think that then go ahead. I made my point already.
 

Emblem Lord

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Peach can outplay Marth. I conceded that.

The operative word was consistency.

If Marth controls neutral generally, then peach has to take more risks. More risks means she needs a mitigating factor. She has infinites and long combos. How consistent are they vs Marth and what can they confirm off of?
 

verbatim

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What makes diddy do horrible for Peach in the first place? I see why she loses but I don't see why it would be horrible.
I'm no Peach main, but if I had to guess I'd say that Diddy's fair is a very powerful tool against her float mixups, as is banana. She can't really weave back and forth against them the way she can against most committal attacks.
 
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Dark.Pch

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What makes diddy do horrible for Peach in the first place? I see why she loses but I don't see why it would be horrible.
That an easy one to answer. And this also applies to MK in some points:

1- Players under estimate peach and what she can do. And since diddy is a high tier, people see them as a character that is so good at many things, that they can not be stop by those below them.

2- Peach players doing stuff that they should not be doing vs diddy that leaves them open and diddys getting free easy hits.

3- Peach players don't know how to deal with Diddy well (Samsora came to me recently telling me he needs help with diddy after his lose to Zero)

4- Player wanna be in the air floating to attacks when diddy has a banana in hand and is just waiting for her to commit to her landing

5- Players lack of ground game cause they always wanna be in the air alot. Ground movement/control/evasion is weak

6- Peach players after a while they wanna force a hit/kill which Peach can not do.

7- Peach players way too aggressive. It' s so free for these characters to land a hit on her for it.

7- Peach players wanna force their way in and be aggressive when something is not going their way and forced to respect opponent.
 

Nathan Richardson

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Good grief Charlie Brown, my head officially hurts at this point.
I think I only got HALF of what was being said between the two of you so I'm lost.
edit: And the forums ate half of my post again I hate it when it does this!
So without going into a wall of text what is the percentage between Marth and Peach?
 
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NotLiquid

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What makes diddy do horrible for Peach in the first place? I see why she loses but I don't see why it would be horrible.
Diddy has every tool in the book to counter Peach's float which is one of her absolute best traits. It forces her to go against Diddy way less aggressively, and being any character put in a spot where you have to play defensively against Diddy Kong is a risky proposition unless your disadvantage game is legit.
 
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Dark.Pch

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Peach can outplay Marth. I conceded that.

The operative word was consistency.

If Marth controls neutral generally, then peach has to take more risks. More risks means she needs a mitigating factor. She has infinites and long combos. How consistent are they vs Marth and what can they confirm off of?
Thats what turnips are for. With a turnip in hand marth has to chill out a bit or he can get hit with one. If he does Peach can go in with a Rar Bair. What this does is She can catch it with being safe. if the opponent tries to do anything, they could get hit by bair. If they shield, she is safe. Either was, she catches the turnip while still keeping control. Now with good use of QFR movement with turnip in hand, Peach has good control and Marth can not freely do as he pleases and is now the one playing dangerous guessing games. I become hard to hit/read. After a turnip hit, Peach should be reacting it. it's free safe damage when granted. You don't give up position and keep control. I don't have to get close to hit on Marth. He does. One hit from that can give me stage control. C

This alone leads to infiinties/combos. Peach is not like other character were they can't really move/evade that well on the ground. He can make it really hard for you to touch her, even with a Neutral such as Marth. QFR, short hop air dodging and a turnip in hand all mixed and matched up is really hard to land a solid hit. She can create illusions where one thinks it's safe to attack but they are actually left opened.

Without a turnip Marth can get closer. And I can not challenge him due to his range. But Marth is also taking some risk for him trying to attack me can leave him open for a punish via short hop air dodges through his attack to a free nair/bair. This is the point I been making. it's not that simple for the dude to just take/keep control. So she is able to put him down alot.

Fun facts:

1- If The player is really good at mirco spacing along with Dtilt, They can punishing Marths fair approaches with Dtilt and get alot of damage. This will make Marth think twice about going on on her. This can also lead to a kill at death % with Dtilt to up-b. The less Peach has to worry about options like that through conditioning and having an answer, the better it is to deal with the fight.

2- If Peach gets Marth off stage, there is a cheap edgeguard she can do to him and end his stock early. I'm the only Peach player that even does this:


And his is another this

 
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Laken64

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That an easy one to answer. And this also applies to MK in some points:

1- Players under estimate peach and what she can do. And since diddy is a high tier, people see them as a character that is so good at many things, that they can not be stop by those below them.

2- Peach players doing stuff that they should not be doing vs diddy that leaves them open and diddys getting free easy hits.

3- Peach players don't know how to deal with Diddy well (Samsora came to me recently telling me he needs help with diddy after his lose to Zero)

4- Player wanna be in the air floating to attacks when diddy has a banana in hand and is just waiting for her to commit to her landing

5- Players lack of ground game cause they always wanna be in the air alot. Ground movement/control/evasion is weak

6- Peach players after a while they wanna force a hit/kill which Peach can not do.

7- Peach players way too aggressive. It' s so free for these characters to land a hit on her for it.

7- Peach players wanna force their way in and be aggressive when something is not going their way and forced to respect opponent.
Reminds me of this tweet from Samsora back in March:
There was a problem fetching the tweet
With the meta being more aggressive would you just say that their aggression is underoptimized, seeing as damaging conversions are now becoming the name of the game slightly more than neutral (though it is still an important aspect of the game).
 
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Dark.Pch

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Its funny you bring this up cause I made a vid talking about this in last year.


To me aggression is the problem. As I stated in that post of why people think why diddy is horrible for Peach is cause of this aggression. When A Peach player is forced to respect something and wait for a chance to do something, they usually dont want too. And wanna force a hit. Thus be aggressive. And I have said countless times, this is not what people should do with Peach. it leaves her open to too many things. Her moveset does not allow her to do these things. Thus people struggle, get put down and others say match up is so damm terrible. Peach is a character where you will be doing ALOT of respecting because of her moveset. Even in match ups she wins. But players find it boring. Don't wanna wait, or panic when they are in a bad spot and toss a move out hoping they get the hit.

Thats just how the character is, and if you don't wanna follow what she is about, honestly, players have no right to complain or get mad when they lose unless it's at themselves. And this would also be not the character for you. You best off playing sheik if you wanna do all these things. Cause you can not with Peach. This is my general rule and mentality when using her:

1- If at a neutral state do not go trying to hit your opponent. Data fish to see what is the most common thing they are doing in terms of trying to hit you or stop you if they think you will attack. If you can't see one, do not go in tossing out a random option or do typical generic Peach stuff and hope you get the hit.

2- Maintain a close possible to opponent if possible while using good use of QFR and shorthop air dodges to be hard to read hit. Good movement and evasion over all.

3- if your opponent commits to an attack and is left open for a free hit or a chance to stay pressure, that is your que that you can go in and start to take control.

4- Once you get a hit, stay on that ass. Chase them, be near their landings and see what they do before your next action. This is NOW when you go all aggressive, cause you have all the control.

5- If you cant get anymore hits and neutral resets, go back to step 1 and restart process

Peach players don't really follow these rules. They just wanna attack and do all times of stuff when it is not the time/safe to do so. Thus they get punished alot and just move into thus I hear the same crap I hear about her and with her match ups. If you wanna test this, look at all that I said in this post, then take the time to Watch sam play. Look at how/why he gets hit. And why he lost his matches. My point is gonna be proven.

Sam has it backwards. The metagame is bad cause people are too aggressive with her. I say this all the time but people don't seem to want to listen. But Peach on twitch stream prove my point the way they play and get hit/lose.
 

Peppermint1201

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how delusional do you have to be to look at a game like this, where you can live forever and your shield regenerates in seconds and you can always airdodge and most high/top tiers either can win by camping or have to camp to win, and then say aggression is as viable as defense is?
 
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blackghost

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how delusional do you have to be to look at a game like this, where you can live forever and your shield regenerates in seconds and you can always airdodge and most high/top tiers either can win by camping or have to camp to win, and then say aggression is as viable as defense is?
Aggro is no question improving. We see it clearly when we have two high level players such as void vs Mr r as shiek or salem vs Zach as bayo. Let's move on to Mr
Camp sonic. 6wx and komo vs wrath. Wrath isn't nearly as successful as the others. The more aggro player is more consistent in thse cases. Even more situational aggression is present in the use of Rosalina these days.
When you say you can always airdodge or shield I'm not really sure if that is true. Airdodging incorrectly agianst aggro players like elegant, ally, or zach among others results in highlights and early deaths. Airdodge reads and shield beating options continue to improve. Shielding against certain (even Lower-mid tiers) is in many situations just wrong look at dk, bowser, ryu, bayo, and others. Shields do come back quick but it doesn't matter when there's this many shield breaking moves in the game.
I'm just going to ask what high tier is consistently camping to win? Not zoning. Also I'm not going to count matchup where the correct option is to camp that includes Lil Mac, ryu, bayo, dk, and possibly bowser.
What high tier characters is always camping.
 

The-Technique

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how delusional do you have to be to look at a game like this, where you can live forever and your shield regenerates in seconds and you can always airdodge and most high/top tiers either can win by camping or have to camp to win, and then say aggression is as viable as defense is?
yeah thats why wrath/shope wins every major he attends, because playing purely reactively is the optimal playstyle in smash

wait something doesnt add up here
 

Peppermint1201

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yeah thats why wrath/shope wins every major he attends, because playing purely reactively is the optimal playstyle in smash

wait something doesnt add up here
yeah because my post definitely made the argument that hyper defense is the only to play the game ever

wait something doesnt add up here
 

TDK

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Regardless of how good the game's defensive state is, the game right now is dictated by how far you can push your advantage state and how often you can access your advantage state first and second, followed by a solid neutral that leads into your advantage state.

The game is "aggressive" because it's about pushing your advantage, not because of the strength of the game's aggressive options in relation to its defensive ones.
 

Peppermint1201

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Aggro is no question improving. We see it clearly when we have two high level players such as void vs Mr r as shiek or salem vs Zach as bayo. Let's move on to Mr
Camp sonic. 6wx and komo vs wrath. Wrath isn't nearly as successful as the others. The more aggro player is more consistent in thse cases. Even more situational aggression is present in the use of Rosalina these days.
When you say you can always airdodge or shield I'm not really sure if that is true. Airdodging incorrectly agianst aggro players like elegant, ally, or zach among others results in highlights and early deaths. Airdodge reads and shield beating options continue to improve. Shielding against certain (even Lower-mid tiers) is in many situations just wrong look at dk, bowser, ryu, bayo, and others. Shields do come back quick but it doesn't matter when there's this many shield breaking moves in the game.
I'm just going to ask what high tier is consistently camping to win? Not zoning. Also I'm not going to count matchup where the correct option is to camp that includes Lil Mac, ryu, bayo, dk, and possibly bowser.
What high tier characters is always camping.
Regardless of how good the game's defensive state is, the game right now is dictated by how far you can push your advantage state and how often you can access your advantage state first and second, followed by a solid neutral that leads into your advantage state.

The game is "aggressive" because it's about pushing your advantage, not because of the strength of the game's aggressive options in relation to its defensive ones.
You guys actually do make good points and I will concede my argument. The prevalence of strong defensive options in neutral obviously doesn't actually ruin or destroy aggression in this game, even if it is more defensive than say, Melee.
 

Y2Kay

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Woooow okay.

First, even a difference of 5 is too high. I would say 3 on a magical 50/50 scale is only applicable to Bowser (marth > Lucina) and Sonic (Lucina > Marth)

I actually think Lucina has a + 1/50 with most of those top tiers. Opinions of course vary but I've seen groups of people, many credible, that Lucina is better for :4cloud2::4bayonetta::4falcon::4diddy::4fox::4greninja::4littlemac::4pikachu::rosalina::4sheik::4sonic: (not saying i agree with all of them but i agree with most). Meanwhile Marth might have a + 1/50 edge for maybe half the characters not listed. I can't see how anyone would disagree that Lucina is more well suited for Sonic.
Mr. E get's bodied whenever he pulls lucina out on Venia lol

:150:
 

OverTime

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how delusional do you have to be to look at a game like this, where you can live forever and your shield regenerates in seconds and you can always airdodge and most high/top tiers either can win by camping or have to camp to win, and then say aggression is as viable as defense is?
Aggressive play is pressure. You force your opponent to make errors then enforce your will on them.

That's why top characters succeed, they have that ability to put a lot of pressure on their opponents forcing them into situations that they can exploit. The players that can abuse that are the ones that succeed. Camping is useless if you can't force a reaction (e.g. By having a lead, or by peppering them with a projectile, or otherwise forcing an approach) Intelligent Defensive play is only useful in a minority of situations. Intelligent Aggressive play is what succeeds in the remaining majority.
 

Yonder

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Aggro is no question improving. We see it clearly when we have two high level players such as void vs Mr r as shiek or salem vs Zach as bayo. Let's move on to Mr
Camp sonic. 6wx and komo vs wrath. Wrath isn't nearly as successful as the others. The more aggro player is more consistent in thse cases. Even more situational aggression is present in the use of Rosalina these days.
When you say you can always airdodge or shield I'm not really sure if that is true. Airdodging incorrectly agianst aggro players like elegant, ally, or zach among others results in highlights and early deaths. Airdodge reads and shield beating options continue to improve. Shielding against certain (even Lower-mid tiers) is in many situations just wrong look at dk, bowser, ryu, bayo, and others. Shields do come back quick but it doesn't matter when there's this many shield breaking moves in the game.
I'm just going to ask what high tier is consistently camping to win? Not zoning. Also I'm not going to count matchup where the correct option is to camp that includes Lil Mac, ryu, bayo, dk, and possibly bowser.
What high tier characters is always camping.
Not to mention the banning of Duck Hunt forced campier characters like Sonic to adapt a bit more...

Speaking of Sonic, hasn't he been a bit quiet lately? I do agree the mega is shifting to aggro atm (which is awesome). Do you think this will hurt sonic at all, or can he play the offense just as well?

I bet Mac likes no more Duck hunt, but contrary to popular belief, he isn't an aggro character...So maybe he'll thrive by continuing to punish aggro instead of being gg'ed on Duck Hunt.
 
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blackghost

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Not to mention the banning of Duck Hunt forced campier characters like Sonic to adapt a bit more...

Speaking of Sonic, hasn't he been a bit quiet lately? I do agree the mega is shifting to aggro atm (which is awesome). Do you think this will hurt sonic at all, or can he play the offense just as well?

I bet Mac likes no more Duck hunt, but contrary to popular belief, he isn't an aggro character...So maybe he'll thrive by continuing to punish aggro instead of being gg'ed on Duck Hunt.
Sonic is in a special place. Unlike most of the cast,either through nerfs or buffs most of the player base of each individual character has has to adapt. Sonic was the outlier. Now the meta game itself is forcing sonic players to shift to be less wrath and more supergirl kel/ 6wx. They'll be fine it will take some time tho.
 

OverTime

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Not to mention the banning of Duck Hunt forced campier characters like Sonic to adapt a bit more...

Speaking of Sonic, hasn't he been a bit quiet lately? I do agree the mega is shifting to aggro atm (which is awesome). Do you think this will hurt sonic at all, or can he play the offense just as well?
It doesn't help that Sonic has the weakest players of the Top Tiers representing him. So his growth is usually slower to adapt at the highest level as opposed to the other characters.
 

Bowserboy3

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turnips suck.
if peach pulls one marth can just take half the stage away and force her to stay in the corner/in the air for most of her stock with very little counterplay allowed. she's an alright character, but getting trashed by :4metaknight::4cloud2::4diddy::4marth:and being too difficult to use as a cp doesn't look good despite her good-ish matchups against :4luigi::4mario::4fox::rosalina:.
Turnips aren't that bad, at all; infact, I would argue they are a cornerstone to her neutral game and part of her key to keeping up with characters like Marth.

One simply doesn't pull out a turnip when both characters are stood around. The best times to pull out a turnip include (but not limited to); at the very start of the match, after the end of a short combo, while the opponent is off stage or while the opponent opts to pull their own item (Link Bomb, Diddy Banana etc). Peach having that turnip in hand grants her more access in neutral when combined with her float. Turnip opens up more options and mixups for her.

---

I personally don't believe Marth is as bad for Peach as many make it out to be. Marth has his range to attempt to wall her out effectively, but that doesn't mean Peach WILL be walled out. Turnips are key to this MU; Marth can attempt to wall Peach out all day, but he lacks a projectile, and he really isn't s super fast character on the ground like Cloud or Meta Knight, which gives Peach more areas to pull up a Turnip. Holding a turnip in hand and then going into a float gives Peach many simple but decently effective options. A thrown turnip will force the opponent to shield it, which Peach can capitalise on with either shield pressure (Dair -> Nair is very good at wearing down shields; wears it down by more than half, and worn down shields cry at Peach's shield poking Fair), or even a grab, which converts into pretty damaging throw combos (this is one of Peach's notable general strengths; her throw confirms are very solid). Should this hit the opponent with Turnip, that's a free follow up for her, a-la Nair or Fair.

Peach doesn't even have to throw the Turnip; if she's floating, she can't throw items, so if the opponent shields in anticipation of the Turnip, that's free shield pressure again for Peach. Should Marth attempt to hit Peach before she can do anything, Peach can simply float back and punish with Turnip. If she is close enough, again, that's a free follow up. Peach's float allows her the most options with items in the game.

Peach's float also allows her to bully Marth's "blindspot" while he attempts space with his aerials; diagonally below infront of him. Poor spacing by Marth is punished by a grounded float Nair or Uair (and the use of Turnip allows Peach to bait or force poor spacing attemtps from Marth; doesn't always work, but it's something Peach can use to push the MU into her favour).

Cloud and Meta Knight being legitimate tough MU's I can agree on though; Meta Knight particularly. But even against Cloud there's minor counterplay. One of my favourites is catching Cloud's recovery with a floating Dair on the ledge; if he doesn't snap it perfectly, that's a free confirm into her Fair. This is made even easier if you drop a Turnip to force the 50 frames no ledge grab thing, which forces Cloud to go past the ledge anyway. You can use this strategy on any character, but it's particularly useful on Cloud, and even Marth.

Slightly off topic here, but I want to seriously put into question the claim that "Peach is hard to play/understand". I've been using Peach for about three months now, and she's quickly become one of my best characters. The only real hard thing about her is performing her zero-to-deaths, of which are legitimately difficult to perform. Understanding and learning what her options are and how you can use them with floats and turnips is pretty strange at first, but once you've done it a couple of times, it's super simple. Actually pulling things off such as general combos (with and without float), using her confirms, using float to hop and dance around the opponent to bait, safely pressuring using her tools aren't really too committal or hard to perform in the slightest; if anything, I feel float makes most of these things easier to perform. Using Peach without float is incredibly harder.

Of course I am not saying Peach is easy to play; I'm not making her out to be Mario or Cloud, but I think it's often unfair for people to put her down because she's "hard to play" (which is a ridiculous thing to say for any character in the first place), and she really isn't that hard to get down.

By pulling a turnip you've just limited your options to throwing/dropping the turnip, using specials, shielding, or mixing up movement
Not quite - the only things that get disabled are your grounded moves.

People seem to forget that you can drop an item with Z and instantly use an aerial with the C-Stick to regab the item while using your aerial, which is effectively the same as using an aerial while holding an item; this is a thing so don't forget about that!

This is vital to Peach's turnip game. This is before considering Peach can't throw items while floating, so she can simply use aerials that way if needed.

Effectively, Peach with a turnip in hand just as many options to play with, not limited options.
 
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soniczx123

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Not to mention the banning of Duck Hunt forced campier characters like Sonic to adapt a bit more...

Speaking of Sonic, hasn't he been a bit quiet lately? I do agree the mega is shifting to aggro atm (which is awesome). Do you think this will hurt sonic at all, or can he play the offense just as well?

I bet Mac likes no more Duck hunt, but contrary to popular belief, he isn't an aggro character...So maybe he'll thrive by continuing to punish aggro instead of being gg'ed on Duck Hunt.
With everyone's advantage state being more and more scary, neutral-heavy characters like Sonic that want to force resets to deal damage are having a harder time doing well cause it's getting harder and harder to keep a lead and run with it (literally). Coupled with the fact that people are starting to learn how to play around Spin Dash and abuse his bad disadvantage more, Sonic's will need to start taking more risks and push advantage more than resetting to neutral over and over again. Also the timeout strats are dead and a thing of the past imo.
 

Das Koopa

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March data post and hub updates coming in the next day. Lotta Q1 PRs are out and a lot of interesting data changes.

also viva :4lucario::4lucario::4lucario::4lucario:

i greatly prefer him to Marth after a solid bit of play and that's before I've really been successful at aura sphere traps
 
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Dark.Pch

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Peach is not an easy character to win with. low mid level play you can do ok with her. Cause people don't know how to deal with her typical play. But even at times that can get you beat up because of her moveset. High level is where she is a problem to do solid with. And she requires alot of work to be really good with. Just being average with her is not a hard task. Anything past that is a struggle. And when they dont wanna do that and force stuff, they get beat up and complain how she sucks. And sometimes quit the character.

So she is a hard character to use and win with. Fight anyone you know who knows how to deal with typical mid level Peach stuff and you are gonna have a hard time. That is not a character you can pick up and take souls with. So no she is not easy. If that was the case I would see more of her tearing it up at these tournaments like the rest of these overused boring high tiers. Yet you don't
 

The-Technique

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Peach is not an easy character to win with. low mid level play you can do ok with her. Cause people don't know how to deal with her typical play. But even at times that can get you beat up because of her moveset. High level is where she is a problem to do solid with. And she requires alot of work to be really good with. Just being average with her is not a hard task. Anything past that is a struggle. And when they dont wanna do that and force stuff, they get beat up and complain how she sucks. And sometimes quit the character.

So she is a hard character to use and win with. Fight anyone you know who knows how to deal with typical mid level Peach stuff and you are gonna have a hard time. That is not a character you can pick up and take souls with. So no she is not easy. If that was the case I would see more of her tearing it up at these tournaments like the rest of these overused boring high tiers. Yet you don't
I think this a problem that a lot of characters in this game have, where its players have really stubborn mentalities leading them to use their characters non-optimally, and they become so jaded towards their mains that they either pick up secondaries or drop their main entirely. Characters that immediately come to mind are Olimar, Duck Hunt, and Ryu, and more often than not many of these characters have sudden breakout performances long after they've been abandoned.
 

RonNewcomb

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Turnips aren't that bad, at all; infact, I would argue they are a cornerstone to her neutral game and part of her key to keeping up with characters like Marth.

One simply doesn't pull out a turnip when both characters are stood around. The best times to pull out a turnip include (but not limited to); at the very start of the match, after the end of a short combo, while the opponent is off stage or while the opponent opts to pull their own item (Link Bomb, Diddy Banana etc). Peach having that turnip in hand grants her more access in neutral when combined with her float. Turnip opens up more options and mixups for her.

---

I personally don't believe Marth is as bad for Peach as many make it out to be. Marth has his range to attempt to wall her out effectively, but that doesn't mean Peach WILL be walled out. Turnips are key to this MU; Marth can attempt to wall Peach out all day, but he lacks a projectile, and he really isn't s super fast character on the ground like Cloud or Meta Knight, which gives Peach more areas to pull up a Turnip. Holding a turnip in hand and then going into a float gives Peach many simple but decently effective options. A thrown turnip will force the opponent to shield it, which Peach can capitalise on with either shield pressure (Dair -> Nair is very good at wearing down shields; wears it down by more than half, and worn down shields cry at Peach's shield poking Fair), or even a grab, which converts into pretty damaging throw combos (this is one of Peach's notable general strengths; her throw confirms are very solid). Should this hit the opponent with Turnip, that's a free follow up for her, a-la Nair or Fair.

Peach doesn't even have to throw the Turnip; if she's floating, she can't throw items, so if the opponent shields in anticipation of the Turnip, that's free shield pressure again for Peach. Should Marth attempt to hit Peach before she can do anything, Peach can simply float back and punish with Turnip. If she is close enough, again, that's a free follow up. Peach's float allows her the most options with items in the game.

Peach's float also allows her to bully Marth's "blindspot" while he attempts space with his aerials; diagonally below infront of him. Poor spacing by Marth is punished by a grounded float Nair or Uair (and the use of Turnip allows Peach to bait or force poor spacing attemtps from Marth; doesn't always work, but it's something Peach can use to push the MU into her favour).

Cloud and Meta Knight being legitimate tough MU's I can agree on though; Meta Knight particularly. But even against Cloud there's minor counterplay. One of my favourites is catching Cloud's recovery with a floating Dair on the ledge; if he doesn't snap it perfectly, that's a free confirm into her Fair. This is made even easier if you drop a Turnip to force the 50 frames no ledge grab thing, which forces Cloud to go past the ledge anyway. You can use this strategy on any character, but it's particularly useful on Cloud, and even Marth.

Slightly off topic here, but I want to seriously put into question the claim that "Peach is hard to play/understand". I've been using Peach for about three months now, and she's quickly become one of my best characters. The only real hard thing about her is performing her zero-to-deaths, of which are legitimately difficult to perform. Understanding and learning what her options are and how you can use them with floats and turnips is pretty strange at first, but once you've done it a couple of times, it's super simple. Actually pulling things off such as general combos (with and without float), using her confirms, using float to hop and dance around the opponent to bait, safely pressuring using her tools aren't really too committal or hard to perform in the slightest; if anything, I feel float makes most of these things easier to perform. Using Peach without float is incredibly harder.

Of course I am not saying Peach is easy to play; I'm not making her out to be Mario or Cloud, but I think it's often unfair for people to put her down because she's "hard to play" (which is a ridiculous thing to say for any character in the first place), and she really isn't that hard to get down.


Not quite - the only things that get disabled are your grounded moves.

People seem to forget that you can drop an item with Z and instantly use an aerial with the C-Stick to regab the item while using your aerial, which is effectively the same as using an aerial while holding an item; this is a thing so don't forget about that!

This is vital to Peach's turnip game. This is before considering Peach can't throw items while floating, so she can simply use aerials that way if needed.

Effectively, Peach with a turnip in hand just as many options to play with, not limited options.
First thing I thought of when someone downplays Turnip: a Z-dropped turnip at the ledge while Peach floats nearby is a very dangerous setup against most of the game's swordies, since they tend to have very vertical up-B recoveries. Second thing I thought of: Peach's many and infamous footstool combos, particularly on the FE weight-class. Turnip isn't the strongest in neutral, but heck, Diddy & Link rely a lot on pulled items for neutral. Even though Turnip doesn't have the hitstun of banana or bombs, item-toss is still the best move in the game.
 

Rizen

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First thing I thought of when someone downplays Turnip: a Z-dropped turnip at the ledge while Peach floats nearby is a very dangerous setup against most of the game's swordies, since they tend to have very vertical up-B recoveries. Second thing I thought of: Peach's many and infamous footstool combos, particularly on the FE weight-class. Turnip isn't the strongest in neutral, but heck, Diddy & Link rely a lot on pulled items for neutral. Even though Turnip doesn't have the hitstun of banana or bombs, item-toss is still the best move in the game.
Adding a bit of Link stuff to this: Not all item data is equal. Link has the best item handling data in the game of characters who produce items. Most notably his dash item throw is frame 4 FAF 19. Link, Diddy, TL and ROB are all close but other item characters like Peach and Mega Man fall short. Link and TL's bombs also have the shortest item pull FAF at 40 frames, Diddy's bananas share this but don't appear in his hand. Bombs being able to be pulled in the air and ground and needing no pick up like bananas makes them even more accessible.
 

my_T

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Why do people on this board forget about KEN when talking about Sonic?


Also, where did this notion come from that the meta is shifting to more aggressive play? If it wasn't aggressive before then what was it? There are plenty of players that have been playing aggressively for ages. Ally/Anti :4mario:, Ranai's :4villager:, FOW/Shaky's :4ness:, Nairo's :4zss:, Elegant/Concon :4luigi:, Shuton's :4olimar:, Hyuga's :4tlink:, KEN's :4sonic:, and the :4duckhunt: trio in Japan just to

name a few, there are more.


Passive aggressive play from players like Salem :4bayonetta2:, Dabuz's :rosalina::4olimar:, Leo's :4metaknight:, Aba/Wadi's :4mewtwo:,
and Zero's :4diddy::4sheik:. All of these players also happen to be the best reps of their characters.


When has anybody ever had any consistent success without some form of aggression?
 

blackghost

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Why do people on this board forget about KEN when talking about Sonic?


Also, where did this notion come from that the meta is shifting to more aggressive play? If it wasn't aggressive before then what was it? There are plenty of players that have been playing aggressively for ages. Ally/Anti :4mario:, Ranai's :4villager:, FOW/Shaky's :4ness:, Nairo's :4zss:, Elegant/Concon :4luigi:, Shuton's :4olimar:, Hyuga's :4tlink:, KEN's :4sonic:, and the :4duckhunt: trio in Japan just to

name a few, there are more.


Passive aggressive play from players like Salem :4bayonetta2:, Dabuz's :rosalina::4olimar:, Leo's :4metaknight:, Aba/Wadi's :4mewtwo:,
and Zero's :4diddy::4sheik:. All of these players also happen to be the best reps of their characters.


When has anybody ever had any consistent success without some form of aggression?
metagame changes aren't just determined by what the elite players are doing it has to have effects in all levels of play. The posts were about how more common aggressive play and how effective it has been. also listing zero shiek and diddy, hyuga and the dhd players under "passive aggression" (not sure what that means. do you mean patient?) as well as wadi mewtwo is kinda questionable. those players dont really have the same playstlye as the others you listed.
 

FeelMeUp

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you guys should use cc more against :4villager::4bayonetta::4metaknight:if your character has a good crouch/crawl. ****'s seriously a gamechanger.
 
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