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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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R3D3MON

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More Ike news:

Rango won a large local/small regional with Ike in South Carolina/GA area.

Also, SM, a west coast Ike, beat Tyrant.
https://smash.gg/tournament/2ggt-ee-saga-1/brackets/11412/7182/26578

I have no idea what's going on with this, must be a good week =)
I guess the range and power buffs on Ike's most useful aerials really helped out the character's competitive viability.

Time for meta knights to really polish their punish game.

EDIT: I did not mean to sound offensive to any meta knight mains.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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So it seems like the state of Sm4sh is in tatters.. A shame.

Oh well. SFV is pretty awesome.
How exactly is it in tatters?

Things seem to be going pretty strong.





And since we're talking about Bayo, here's an interesting question.

Out of the five super heavy weights, which ones deals with Bayo the best?

:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:
 

momochuu

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It's going to be two years later of Bayo dominance and there will still be people saying "she's not that good guys, honestly!!!"
 

FullMoon

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Honestly, I'm not going to care all that much about an oversized f-tilt 3 hitbox until the day you can do an f-tilt 3 OoS.

What made Snake u-tilt so terrifying is that he could suddenly pull it out at any given moment.
I mean I don't think Bayo's F-Tilt is really an issue like Snake's Up-Tilt was.

I was just showing the full extent of the silly hitbox in it for those who weren't 100% aware of it.

Compared to all of Bayo's silliness, complaining about the range in the third hit of F-Tilt is an incredibly trivial thing to do.
 
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Fatmanonice

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So people's consensus is that Cloud is getting... better? One thing that drives me nuts is how many people take Cloud to Smashville. I don't understand this at all. Apparently people are totally okay with dying from d/fsmash and cross slash on the edge at like 70%, having him use the platform to save this recovery, and dying off the top from uair at 90%. I could say the same about Sheik and Smashville too. Stage counterpicking for this game feels so lazy and it makes my eyes cross with quiet rage sometimes.

About Bayo's ftilt: goofy range but Snake's could be grab released into, outprioritized a buttload of stuff, and could kill a good portion of the cast at like 90%. There's no comparison.
 
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Thinkaman

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The 10 biggest tournaments on Saturday (including those which extended into Sunday)
BEAST 6, 267 entrants. Winner Mr. R :4sheik: 2nd iStudying :4greninja: 3rd ESAM :4pikachu:
Landlocked, 172 entrants. Winner Zinoto :4diddy: 2nd Ryuga :4corrinf: 3rd Dabuz :rosalina:
Couchwarriors February Monthly, 146 entrants. Winner Ghost :4bayonetta: 2nd Earl :4ryu: 3rd Xettman :4sheik:
Showdown VII, 141 entrants. Winner IoRi :4sheik: 2nd Kamizama :4metaknight: 3rd Firehao :4diddy:
Smash on the Hill IX, 128 entrants. Winner Marss :4zss: 2nd Koolaid :4sheik::4zss::4fox::4drmario: 3rd Pugwest :4marth:
Kings of the South 2, 111 entrants. Winner Fatality :4falcon: 2nd Player-1 :4diddy: 3rd Sol :4littlemac:
UMN February Monthly, 106 entrants. Winner GanonTheBeast :4ganondorf: 2nd Dexter :4sheik::4corrinf: 3rd Triple R :4kirby:
Super Bit Wars 4, 105 entrants. Winner DKwill :4dk: 2nd Mew^2 :4mewtwo: 3rd Mew2King :4cloud::4dk:
ARFI #11, 102 entrants. Winner Jbandrew :4metaknight: 2nd SaSSy :4rob: 3rd Jerm :4robinf:
Cusetown Beatdown 5, 92 entrants. Winner San :4myfriends: 2nd Dark Wizzy :4mario: 3rd Cassius :4bowser::4mario:
And the 11th biggest was won by a :4duckhunt: (80+ entrants)
Bert's Bi Monthly: SYHO, 78 entrants. Winner Fye :4metaknight::4myfriends: 2nd Flow-Yo :4yoshi::4drmario: 3rd SM_Strat:4fox:
This was following a weekend of unprecedented success internationally with:4lucario: and :4tlink:.

The field is so crowded that traditionally strong threats like :4ryu:, :4sonic:, :4ness:, and :4villager: didn't even break into these lists, though they are absolutely still in-play. And what about :4wario::4luigi::4peach:?

So it seems like the state of Sm4sh is in tatters.. A shame.

Oh well. SFV is pretty awesome.
 

Nidtendofreak

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@ ZSS vs Ike discussion

From what I saw: ZSS really can't afford to whiff grab against Ike. Like at all. Its too much damage wracked up with ZSS being too light after a whiff. I mean as early as 80%, a grab is potentially lethal. She might have to borderline never grab if she's by the ledge, just too much of a risk. Probably has to seriously look at not grabbing ever at 100% as well.

Same general idea with her laggier movies. ZSS appears to really be forced to play patient: if its not Up B, Down B, Bair, or Uair, probably not a safe kill move to attempt. And of course, both characters like a fairly similar stage selection, so even more volatile.
 

R3D3MON

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I could say the same about Sheik and Smashville too. Stage counterpicking for this game feels so lazy and it makes my eyes cross with quiet rage sometimes.
Not to mention the fair plane working even better for sheik on smashville. Another aspect of the game that should really develop further (and hopefully it will as the meta progresses toward countering top tier characters).
 

Shaya

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Tatters replaced with "chaotic" and "A shame" with "This is fantastic" would be more accurate~

Watched the set, was an expression of what I was thinking. Dtilt wasn't really a factor however.

The new buffed fair is kinda ridiculous (as it should be, Marth getting 1.5 units on down tilt has made it incredible at what it does), damage on top of this and having it kill near the ledge at around 80% is a very dominant trait. The huge impacts from this patch have started to be more noticeable amidst Bayo hype.
Ike can now kinda wall ZSS out, going by how we saw Marss play here. A play style change will be necessary and he also needs to adapt his fast fall timing on aerials as he was getting power shielded way too much.

I think the overall issue here was Marss didn't know how to play on the ground against Ike, implementing forward tilt/crouching/power shield attempts would maybe help.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Tatters replaced with "chaotic" and "A shame" with "This is fantastic" would be more accurate~

Watched the set, was an expression of what I was thinking. Dtilt wasn't really a factor however.

The new buffed fair is kinda ridiculous (as it should be, Marth getting 1.5 units on down tilt has made it incredible at what it does), damage on top of this and having it kill near the ledge at around 80% is a very dominant trait.
Ike can now kinda wall ZSS out, going by how we saw Marss play here. A play style change will be necessary and he also needs to adapt his fast fall timing on aerials as he was getting power shielded way too much.

I think the overall issue here was Marss didn't know how to play on the ground against Ike, implementing forward tilt/crouching/power shield attempts would maybe help.
This made me stop and think a bit. Just how big is 1 "unit" in terms of hitbox size and positioning? I have literally no frame of reference to go off of here.

Side-by-side pictures would be ideal, but I'll take basically anything that will help illustrate it.
 

C0rvus

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And since we're talking about Bayo, here's an interesting question.

Out of the five super heavy weights, which ones deals with Bayo the best?

:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:
It's easily Bowser. His advantaged state is good enough that he is a threat. The rest get bodied super hard, though I know little about DK.
 
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Thinkaman

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I could actually see Charizard doing... okay. I could also see it going very poorly; I'd want to play the match quite a bit and test a few interactions.

On the other hand, Ganon vs. Bayo is certainly going to be dismal.
 

Lavani

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This made me stop and think a bit. Just how big is 1 "unit" in terms of hitbox size and positioning? I have literally no frame of reference to go off of here.

Side-by-side pictures would be ideal, but I'll take basically anything that will help illustrate it.
This should help.

16 units (ZSS jab; X=13 size=3, not tied to bones) is about 2 blocks on Mushroomy Kingdom Ω (3DS), so 1 unit should be 1/8 of a block (i.e. "small enough for me to first pass off Vanish hitbox nerf as placebo")

The omega is 20 blocks long, I'm not sure if there's a parallel on Wii U.
 

Nidtendofreak

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This made me stop and think a bit. Just how big is 1 "unit" in terms of hitbox size and positioning? I have literally no frame of reference to go off of here.

Side-by-side pictures would be ideal, but I'll take basically anything that will help illustrate it.
Ike's Fair is now equal in reach with Shulk's Fair if that helps any. (it was a 20% increase in size)
 

Blobface

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How exactly is it in tatters?

Things seem to be going pretty strong.





And since we're talking about Bayo, here's an interesting question.

Out of the five super heavy weights, which ones deals with Bayo the best?

:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:
Ganon clearly.:yeahboi:

I agree with Bowser doing the best. It's still not a great matchup AFAIK, but Tough Guy goes a long way against Bullet Climax.

The others all get to enjoy a matchup filled with all the fun and painlessness of dodging hail.
 
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Radical Larry

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Sometimes I always wonder if people are going more diverse just to prove that this current tier list is horrible. It seems to be that way, what with Ganondorf making first place in one of the biggest tournaments last week, Greninja making second at Beast 6, Link making 9th in the same tournament and somehow, some way, we don't even see Ryu take much (despite being fourth place on the tier list!)

I could actually see Charizard doing... okay. I could also see it going very poorly; I'd want to play the match quite a bit and test a few interactions.

On the other hand, Ganon vs. Bayo is certainly going to be dismal.
Well, Bayonetta and Ganondorf comes down to who will hit first and who will hit hardest. The only way Ganondorf can even deal with Witch Time is by just baiting Bayonetta close range or charging a Smash attack. In terms of Frame Data, Ganondorf...actually wins for most of his attacks! There are attacks like F-Air and D-Tilt that Ganondorf obviously loses, as well as Smash attacks outside D-Smash, but considering they're only by a frame to three frames, it's not much, and Ganondorf has higher power and priority on his attacks than Bayo.

As with Ganondorf vs Bullet Climax, try Warlock Punch. An unconventional move, yes, but on certain timing, such as Bayonetta half-way done with Bullet Climax, there goes Bayo. Recovery-wise, Bayo obviously wins, but don't count Ganondorf out just yet; if she recovers from above with Side B Hado input, Ganondorf better charge up F-Smash and read. If she goes for the same elevation of the ledge, Ganondorf better ready D-Air, F-Air or U-Air. If she goes from under, don't use any aerial except for Wizard's Foot. It has disjoints that will challenge Bayonetta's tactics; if not that, F-Air better hit Witch Twist.

But it does come down to who can hit the hardest and who can take the stock the fastest, and so Ganondorf just needs to be very, very careful.
 

Thinkaman

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Ganondorf pretty much just gets shut down by Bullet Climax, due to the combination of top-tier height and bottom-tier speed.

Other heavies aren't quite as tall, are faster, and have longer reach. Bowser also has Tough Guy. All struggle with size, but Bullet Climax alone is not an auto-win like it is against Ganondorf.
 

NairWizard

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Well, Bayonetta and Ganondorf comes down to who will hit first and who will hit hardest. The only way Ganondorf can even deal with Witch Time is by just baiting Bayonetta close range or charging a Smash attack. In terms of Frame Data, Ganondorf...actually wins for most of his attacks! There are attacks like F-Air and D-Tilt that Ganondorf obviously loses, as well as Smash attacks outside D-Smash, but considering they're only by a frame to three frames, it's not much, and Ganondorf has higher power and priority on his attacks than Bayo.

As with Ganondorf vs Bullet Climax, try Warlock Punch. An unconventional move, yes, but on certain timing, such as Bayonetta half-way done with Bullet Climax, there goes Bayo. Recovery-wise, Bayo obviously wins, but don't count Ganondorf out just yet; if she recovers from above with Side B Hado input, Ganondorf better charge up F-Smash and read. If she goes for the same elevation of the ledge, Ganondorf better ready D-Air, F-Air or U-Air. If she goes from under, don't use any aerial except for Wizard's Foot. It has disjoints that will challenge Bayonetta's tactics; if not that, F-Air better hit Witch Twist.

But it does come down to who can hit the hardest and who can take the stock the fastest, and so Ganondorf just needs to be very, very careful.

Larry, do you actually believe any of what you post?

This is a serious question, I'm not trying to put you down. I just can't tell if you are trolling here or not.
 

Shaya

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This made me stop and think a bit. Just how big is 1 "unit" in terms of hitbox size and positioning? I have literally no frame of reference to go off of here.

Side-by-side pictures would be ideal, but I'll take basically anything that will help illustrate it.
The length of Marth's blade is roughly 12-13 units
Possibly an easier reference, Zero Suit's paralyzer hitbox [which I don't think is horrendously inaccurate to it's animation] is 2.4 units in size.

There's also the side by side gifs of Marth's fair being cleanly beaten in range by Sheik pre-patch and post-patch where it's now somewhat reversed.
 
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PK Gaming

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Larry, do you actually believe any of what you post?

This is a serious question, I'm not trying to put you down. I just can't tell if you are trolling here or not.
He's very clearly not trolling.

Trolls get bored of doing the same thing over and over again.
 

meleebrawler

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Witch Time definitely has weaknesses that are not immediately noticeable (ie can be masked by smart use). While it's more difficult to punish directly compared to other counters, failure still means she cannot reasonably try it again at lower percents for a few seconds, as otherwise she'll get only a measly second to do anything. It's much less of a problem at higher percents... but can't the majority of the cast kill at said percents with some kind of read as well?

Positioning is an issue too. You may get smashed on or near the ground, but high in the air you have considerably less to worry about. This leads me to believe that Final Destination is a "safe" counterpick, even if it gives her greater freedom with dive kicks.
 

Trifroze

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So it seems like the state of Sm4sh is in tatters.. A shame.

Oh well. SFV is pretty awesome.
I actually had positive feelings about For Glory for the first time in my life just a while ago. It was due to playing it after a week of SF5 where you get to play literally 6-8 ranked matches per hour during prime time in EU with a medium connection setting, and around 1/3 of them are laggy to the point of unplayable. If you're looking for something that's in a good state, better just stay with Smash 4 or wait a few months longer.

E: Marss vs Waldo rematch in losers: http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground
 
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wedl!!

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"it's a matter of who hits first, and who hits harder"

ok do i need to explain again that ganon barely has a punish game on bayonetta? while she has a field day on his fat ass?

it's not like he's going to get around her buttons, parry, witch twist, and guns very often.

just because characters play similarly does not mean they are on the same level of doing it.
 

CBO0tz

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So there hasn't been a loss of tournament players at all in your guys' areas? Do you guys find the newest characters annoying to fight against?
 

Djent

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I don't think Bayo or Cloud will ever ruin this game, but I do think those two contribute more "jank" than custom moves ever could have. It's a shame we can't just run tournaments using 1.1.2 (the most balanced version of the game so far IMO), but oh well.
 

Mr. Johan

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At this point I'm just assuming that Ike was given all these buffs to his throw game and range over the patches as a sort of compensation for his recovery options requireing a far more paramount commitment than any other recovery. Give him a puissant presence onstage in return for being particularly hollow offstage.

Which would be fine and all, if Quick Draw didn't autocancel and Aether didn't have super armor and a wild, flailing disjointed hitbox to it.

Dunno, just comes across as not realizing how good those two moves actually are, and giving him presents in the hopes of appeasing the already-satisfied Ike players.

Felt like this was relevant, given the current circumstances.
 

AnEventHorizon

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Time's weakness is that it is only active until frame 21, and BW until frame 30ish, with an FAF of 43?. Most characters have counters from frame 8-35, so Bayonetta's quick start-up is understandable. The move is still OP though.
You've overestimated the active frames of most character's counter quite a bit. Almost got Ike's though, and it's really the low endlag on Bayonetta's that makes it so good in my opinion.

Source

Marth/Lucina:

  • Counter Active: Frames 5-27
  • FAF: Frame 60 (33 frames of lag)
Ike:

  • Counter Active: Frames 9-34
  • FAF: Frame 59 (25 frames of lag)
Roy:

  • Counter Active: Frames 8-27
  • FAF: Frame 60 (33 frames of lag)
Corrin:

  • Counter Active: Frames 7-29 (Intangible on frames 6-7)
  • FAF: Frame 64 (35 frames of lag)
Now for the rest of the characters with counters (I don't count ryu's focus)

Little Mac:

  • Counter Active: Frames 4 - 26
  • FAF: Frame 63 (37 frames of lag)
Lucario:

  • Counter Active: Frames 5-39
  • FAF: Frame 80 (41 frames of lag)
Peach:

  • Counter Active: Frames 11-31
  • FAF: Frame 63 (32 frames of lag)
Shulk:

  • Counter Active: Frames 7-43 (Intangible on frames 6-7 on the ground, frames 7-8 in the air)
  • Depreciated Active Frames: 7-34
  • FAF: Frame 70 (27 frames of lag minimum)
Greninja:

  • Counter Active: Frames 8-30 (Intangible frames 8-19)
  • FAF: Frame 65 (35 frames of lag)
Palutena:

  • Counter Active: 9-31 (Intangible frames 10-26)
  • FAF: Frame 75 (44 frames of lag)
Mii:

  • Counter Active : Frames 6-29
  • FAF : 60 (31 frames of lag)
Bayonetta: (The one everyone cares about)

  • Witch Time: Frames 5-21 (Intangible frames 5-16)
  • Bat Within: Frames 17-29
  • FAF: Frame 45 (16 frames of lag)

Her counter has equal or better startup than other characters, with an overall duration similar to those counters with much later startup times (Ike/Roy/Corrin/Palutena). And of course, an almost incomparably low end lag.
 
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Radical Larry

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Ganondorf pretty much just gets shut down by Bullet Climax, due to the combination of top-tier height and bottom-tier speed.

Other heavies aren't quite as tall, are faster, and have longer reach. Bowser also has Tough Guy. All struggle with size, but Bullet Climax alone is not an auto-win like it is against Ganondorf.
Yeah, it's not like we have a function where the character can duck or phase through the attack altogether on ground and mid-air. That's just silly.

Larry, do you actually believe any of what you post?

This is a serious question, I'm not trying to put you down. I just can't tell if you are trolling here or not.
He's very clearly not trolling.

Trolls get bored of doing the same thing over and over again.
Well, you're both actually wrong. I've not been using Ganondorf primarily in a very, very long while, so I've been trying to develop him alongside my other nine main characters. However, what would be impressive is that I even main so many characters in the first place and gives time to all of them, to make himself good. Anyways, I have an arsenal of characters now, and I'm trying to focus on them all. So that just makes me a player who uses :4link::4falco::4bowser::4littlemac::4cloud::4samus::4dedede::4rob::4jigglypuff: and then :4ganondorf:.

I'm just trying to also post something that would make me feel somewhat complete. No matter how bad it is to you guys, my posts at least give me something to fill that void considered agony.

I don't think Bayo or Cloud will ever ruin this game, but I do think those two contribute more "jank" than custom moves ever could have. It's a shame we can't just run tournaments using 1.1.2 (the most balanced version of the game so far IMO), but oh well.
Please be sarcastic on the last sentence.
 

FlynnCL

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This made me stop and think a bit. Just how big is 1 "unit" in terms of hitbox size and positioning? I have literally no frame of reference to go off of here.

Side-by-side pictures would be ideal, but I'll take basically anything that will help illustrate it.
If I was to enter Smash 4 Marth's hitbox data into his Brawl self using BrawlBox and then recreate the buffs, I get this (gif warning!):
Obvious it's not meant to be entirely accurate to Smash 4 Marth but it shows that 1.5 units is the difference between a hitbox not covering the tip to one that extends past it.

Ike's forward air gaining that much extra distance is amazing, especially since the attack is an overhead 160 degree swing that covers his entire front. That's increased range on every area that isn't behind him!
 
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Yikarur

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I've beaten a bayonetta in tournament today by punishing her witch time with a kill move every time.
What is your problem... witch time can be punished like any other missed counter.
 

NairWizard

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No matter how bad it is to you guys, my posts at least give me something to fill that void considered agony.
I don't actually know how to respond to this, other than that I'm sorry if it feels like anyone is belittling you. If you take the time to really understand neutral and how neutral is played at high or mid level you will see why some of your posts come off as trolling (or ignorant).

The fundamental issue, Larry, is that you think of neutral in terms of reads and prediction--which is totally fine when one player is better than another, but when we talk about the concept of neutral in this topic or in any kind of competitively themed discussion, we're considering two players of equal skill, meaning that while both sides will get the opportunity to make some reads, what will happen more often is a clash of options selected at the same time (including possibly the option of "do nothing and wait to react," if reacting is feasible in the situation), and the character with the better options will win.
 

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How exactly is it in tatters?

Things seem to be going pretty strong.





And since we're talking about Bayo, here's an interesting question.

Out of the five super heavy weights, which ones deals with Bayo the best?

:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:
My experience with :4dedede: is that it's one of her easiest match ups. Crap landing options + piss poor aerial mobility + pitiful close range options = Bayo steam rolling her way through the match up. One of the few upsides of the match up is that :4dedede: is one of the few characters who isn't instantly thrown in hot water if he finds himself offstage against her and can typically get back with few problems. :4ganondorf: vs :4bayonetta: may be the most hilariously one sided match ups in the game. Add Dedede's problems + one of the worst offstage games of the whole cast + Bat Within casually blowing off most of :4ganondorf: kill options= a combo training dummy. Based on these shared characteristics, :4charizard: looks bad on paper but I admit I've never played or seen this match up before.

As for the best again Bayo... I'd go with :4dk:. The Expand Dong/Ding Dong combo reliably kills her off the top on many stages at 70% or even earlier with the help of platforms or rage. Wracking up damage seems a lot easier for him thanks to things such as the cargo throw, ground slap, and spinning kong/dtilt traps so getting 30% on Bayo in a short time span and quickly getting her in kill range isn't too hard. His range helps too. There are downsides though like how linear his recovery is, how he's still juggle fodder and can still can trapped in 0-deaths easier than a lot of the cast, and how Bullet Climax is given a giant target to hit. DK has many of the same weaknesses as most of the heavyweights but he makes up for it by having better landing options and reliable kill set ups which definitely helps against Bayo.
 
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Nobie

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After fighting new Ike on ladder, I've come to realize that, if your character doesn't reliably outrange Ike (and most characters don't), you basically have to stuff his approaches head on. His fair is too strong, his autocancels too good, and his range too absurd for you to play a reliable punish game on him. You basically have to jump into the mouth of the lion and punch him in the tongue or else Ike can easily overwhelm you.

Basically as Mewtwo whenever I tried to play it safe and do hit and run I would just get clobbered. It was only after I started to rely on the speed and power of my own fair WITHIN Ike fair range that I started to do any real damage. I can imagine a lot of other characters requiring a similar mentality.
 

Radical Larry

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I don't actually know how to respond to this, other than that I'm sorry if it feels like anyone is belittling you. If you take the time to really understand neutral and how neutral is played at high or mid level you will see why some of your posts come off as trolling (or ignorant).

The fundamental issue, Larry, is that you think of neutral in terms of reads and prediction--which is totally fine when one player is better than another, but when we talk about the concept of neutral in this topic or in any kind of competitively themed discussion, we're considering two players of equal skill, meaning that while both sides will get the opportunity to make some reads, what will happen more often is a clash of options selected at the same time (including possibly the option of "do nothing and wait to react," if reacting is feasible in the situation), and the character with the better options will win.
Look, to be honest, it's normally after the post that I realize my mistakes, because I'm going on viewpoints far different from other people and waiting for their own responses. But the real matter is, is that my view and activity of neutral is the first point, because I've rarely ever even fought an opponent who was as good as, or better than, me. I can do my best to understand neutral from the perspective of equal skill from now on, but it's something I'll need help with since, again, I haven't found my "dream opponent", if that makes any sense. I do attempt options to try and out-play my opponents and get the upper hand, and it may even usually work out, may not.

But as for that belittling stuff, the only reason I've been having some agony this week is because I've had a pretty horrible week, but I'm not going into detail about it, except for the fact that I missed a tournament today just because of my own parents. Sure, they take my brother (who lost early), but I can't even meet people I've made friends with and play friendlies with them? I could have learned more from them at least, because they're some pretty good players (though a lot of them aren't close to me like I want).

Oh, and people on this website kind of don't know how I can go against them now and days, so that may be another reason why people may not enjoy seeing my posts.

I digress, I will try going with Neutral by the thread's standpoint, not through the other way, I guess.
 
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Tri Knight

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I don't think Bayo or Cloud will ever ruin this game, but I do think those two contribute more "jank" than custom moves ever could have. It's a shame we can't just run tournaments using 1.1.2 (the most balanced version of the game so far IMO), but oh well.
I don't know why, considering Sheik is still the dominant force for now.

Bayo can definitely prove to be a problem to most characters if nothing changes with her though. Cloud's dominant on the stage but allergic to offstage disadvantage.
 

Radical Larry

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I don't know why, considering Sheik is still the dominant force for now.

Bayo can definitely prove to be a problem to most characters if nothing changes with her though. Cloud's dominant on the stage but allergic to offstage disadvantage.
But Cloud's also a character who is phenomenal off-stage with advantage. That N-Air range, speed and KB angle are something to really fear, no? Cloud's a character I can use similar to Falco; I use Falco with a lot of good timing, especially with B-Air, so I use Cloud in the same way, with a lot of good timing and, on an opponent in air, position.
 
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