Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[PK Gaming]

How is he even supposed to stay alive that long?

The same way pretty much everyone in the cast stays alive? KOing is hard unless you have guaranteed KO set ups.

Case in point

Seibrik lives until 138% before he's KOed. Don't be fooled into thinking that being light necessarily equates to being easy to KO, especially if the character in question has the mobility specs and recovery to back it up.

 

[R3D3MON]

Ftr neither Fox mains nor Luigi mains ever actually argued that to my knowledge. It was always seen as relatively close to even.

From my understanding many people in this thread thought the MU was definitely in Luigi's favor, including some Luigi mains (not any fox mains to my knowledge, tho, as you said). Maybe my memory is off here.

 

[Luigi player]

Fox still has to fear Luigi's tornado gimp tho from what I understand. Fox players should most likely focus on not getting set below-stage, and not using side-b predictably (because that is almost a free d-smash or up-smash if you read it properly)

Lately I've found going offstage to fair his sideBs to the ledge if he tries that to be working really well. This somewhat forces Fox to recover higher which can be punished great as well.

The most annoying thing in the MU to me is Fox' great "buffed" (in this case) jab, frame 2, good range, hits you away, does ok damage... it's kinda walling Luigi since shield doesn't even really beat it because multijabs are so ****ing safe. And yeah it's actually pretty hard to combo him... like dthrow -> one hit and you're done. The window where you get 2 fairs on him or fair -> something else and stuff is kinda different than for other characters (somewhere at like 30-50 %). Fox combos Luigi nicely too but yeah most stuff has already been said. I'm not sure if Luigi has some specific combo for Fox out of grabs with utilts or something but from what I've tried I never got too much out of them.


And about Larrys DK... and even Fox. Damn, those matches were really hype. I wonder if DK could be seen as high tier (though likely not if you go by the official lists high tier) or at least somewhere around CF/Luigi or below those. DK has been doing pretty well lately. I could see him being one letter above where he is now. About the same as Peach, ROB, CF, Wario, etc.

Spoiler: Some DK Tourney Results

Dismantle 2
- January 3-4, 2016
- 259 entrants
- Bracket: e2c.challonge.com/DismantleSm4shFinal

1. Nairo

2. Dabuz

3. Ally

4. Dkwill

5. Vinnie

5. MJG

7. Zinoto

7. Ned

9. *****

9. MVD

9. LOE1

9. Dan

s@x 131, Jan 5, 2016
~120 entrants
(vgbootcamp)

1. vabengalz / remzi

2. will

3. boss

4. c3po

5. smashg0d

5. tension

Super Bit Wars 4
- feb 20-21, 2016
- 105 entrants
- bracket: smash.gg/tournament/super-bit-…/11149/4031/16433/bracket

1. DKwill

2. Mew^2

3. Mew2King

(

)
4. Dakpo

5. AeroLink

5. Skillager

7. Gibus

7. Denti

Genesis 3:
DKwill got 25th,
Larry used him a bit too and got 7th.

Let's also not forget the few things M2K got with him, and now this (=larry beating void reverse 3-0 with DK; taking a game against zeros diddy...).

 

[Luig]

I feel like some people ignore character weaknesses so they can just complain about them.
doesn't do well if the opponent can outcamp him or outrange him. He almost can't get in. Additionally, he has no kill confirms unless you are at 160 (sd>nair) his kill throws are lackluster, and his smashes are pretty weak for a middleweight. (Especially usmash, one of the weakest AND laggiest in the game, and dsmash, whish is only a quick oos and edgeguarding option.)

 

[R3D3MON]

Luigi player
Thank you for your input! I always appreciate high-level Luigi players' thoughts on MU.
Do you punish Foxes recovering high with up smash? I usually am not good at punishing recoveries from above.

Fox from what I understand cannot fall into up-tilt juggles because once again, he can just DI down and perfect shield (since shields come out immediately in this game). The worst thing about Luigi's up-tilt is that it has 0 base knockback, so people can react really quickly out of it at low percents, but the move has high enough knockback growth so that it doesn't really combo into anything at kill %s. I really wished it behaved similarly to Mario's up-tilt. I found the up-tilt trap from d-throw to work better on middleweights, but only as a surprise tactic. Smart players can just jump out after one or two up tilts from what I understand.

About Larry: I think his DK did so well against voiD because he has so much experience great sheik players in general. That was why he was able to escape out of d-throw > uair at kill percents 4 times in a row by just airdodging, as a freaking DK of all characters (good example of his MU knowledge against sheiks that more people should be aware of). Also he knew exactly when to perfect shield aggressive approaches from both voiD and ZeRo in order to punish them with the Ding Dong (which works even better because both sheik and Diddy are fastfallers ).

 

[Diddy Kong]

Lately I've found going offstage to fair his sideBs to the ledge if he tries that to be working really well. This somewhat forces Fox to recover higher which can be punished great as well.

The most annoying thing in the MU to me is Fox' great "buffed" (in this case) jab, frame 2, good range, hits you away, does ok damage... it's kinda walling Luigi since shield doesn't even really beat it because multijabs are so ****ing safe. And yeah it's actually pretty hard to combo him... like dthrow -> one hit and you're done. The window where you get 2 fairs on him or fair -> something else and stuff is kinda different than for other characters (somewhere at like 30-50 %). Fox combos Luigi nicely too but yeah most stuff has already been said. I'm not sure if Luigi has some specific combo for Fox out of grabs with utilts or something but from what I've tried I never got too much out of them.


And about Larrys DK... and even Fox. Damn, those matches were really hype. I wonder if DK could be seen as high tier (though likely not if you go by the official lists high tier) or at least somewhere around CF/Luigi or below those. DK has been doing pretty well lately. I could see him being one letter above where he is now. About the same as Peach, ROB, CF, Wario, etc.

Spoiler: Some DK Tourney Results

Dismantle 2
- January 3-4, 2016
- 259 entrants
- Bracket: e2c.challonge.com/DismantleSm4shFinal

1. Nairo

2. Dabuz

3. Ally

4. Dkwill

5. Vinnie

5. MJG

7. Zinoto

7. Ned

9. *****

9. MVD

9. LOE1

9. Dan

s@x 131, Jan 5, 2016
~120 entrants
(vgbootcamp)

1. vabengalz / remzi

2. will

3. boss

4. c3po

5. smashg0d

5. tension

Super Bit Wars 4
- feb 20-21, 2016
- 105 entrants
- bracket: smash.gg/tournament/super-bit-…/11149/4031/16433/bracket

1. DKwill

2. Mew^2

3. Mew2King

(

)
4. Dakpo

5. AeroLink

5. Skillager

7. Gibus

7. Denti

Genesis 3:
DKwill got 25th,
Larry used him a bit too and got 7th.

Let's also not forget the few things M2K got with him, and now this (=larry beating void reverse 3-0 with DK; taking a game against zeros diddy...).

Mewtwo and DK seem like quite good future prospects for High Tier. At the very least, I could see them reach level of viability. They are just extremely solid characters all around, and have great players to honor them. DKwill, Mew2King for , and of course the infamous Mew^2 for . This is awesome news for me, cause I have both and as secondaries, alongside . ( I play less and less, and & are more niche choices- I use almost as much as them).

But holy ****, DK scoring higher than Diddy as of late is quite a strange sighting. I wanna see a top like Zinoto or MVD take out the likes of Nairo's or Trela's , or even ESAM's . That would be something amazing for Diddy's metagame growth.

Still think the smaller Kong has the most potential of the Top Tiers to future develop. Well, of course not counting .

 

[Luig]

Luigi has a few good low percent combos against fox, but he struggles with getting in. It's nice being able to crouch under lasers though.

Luigi can do dthrow>dsmash against fox which can lead into a grab, then another dthrow into a dair, nair them, then upsmash. Alternatively, after the nair, you can up tilt and see if you can get a grab.
If fox di's the dsmash down and away, he might get hit with both hits of the dsmash for 30%.
you can dthrow>up b fox at 0, though this is kinda unsafe.
A really underused option is dthrow>dtilt. This can lead into a jab, or after the first 2 hits of the jab, you could try for a grab.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So when are we banning Bayonetta?

The character is four times the character Meta Knight ever was.

Only in advantage and disadvantage. Her neutral is nowhere near what his was.

 

[|RK|]

If I may make another Kirby-related comment:

I don't understand why some people don't think Kirby doesn't go even against Fox or Lucario against Sheik.

After Larry Lurr's incredible performance last night, I'm thinking - this guy doesn't play Fox against Kirby. Just as ZeRo switched to Diddy at a tournament against Kamicario. That says something for how well those characters match up against one another, no?

 

[Greward]

Mr R won another tournament in Europe, France. Although he went 3-2 in WF and GF against gluttony's bayonetta (quite surprising because gluttony isn't that good in this game as in brawl, at least until bayonetta has been out). Mr R did play some Cloud as well in GF.

2 bayonettas in top4, along with a greninja/pacman player called elexiao. The other bayonetta I don't remember the name, first time I saw him.

 

[R3D3MON]

@LuigiMaster
Those are not guranteed tho. They are all mixups, as stated before. If Luigi players go for a grab after d-smash or up-smash, you can just roll away or spotdodge, or in the case of up smash, just jump away. Also from my knowledge Fox players can actually shield before the second hit of d-smash if they DI down quickly and shield (shields come out on FRAME 1). If Luigi players attack, Foxes can just hold shield and counterattack and possibly get an even bigger punish on the Luigi players, which really sucks. As I said before, d-throw > up-b is definitely not safe at low percents because it does not send opponents far away from Luigi, and Luigi is stuck in million years of endlag. So definitely not safe. People keep mentioning mixups as reason why fox gets combo-ed hard, but what Luigi thrives off of is NOT MIXUPS, its GUARANTEED combos or extremely safe mixups.

Also, doesn't d-tilt send you too far away for jab? And jab cancels are also mixups that can be avoided by quickly spotdodging, shielding, or rolling away from my knowledge. If you are referring to d-throw > d-tilt for the trip chance, the trip is really unreliable and completely RNG dependent, which is why I see most Luigi players not going for that option.

All of the mixups that you mentioned really only work on low-mid level players or players that are really not familiar with Luigi. Basically its really only effective against the FG-level or similarly-leveled players (except for jab cancels, which is probably Luigi's most reliable mixup options).

 

[Luig]

I think if they standardized the lag of bayonetta's counter half the complaints would be gone.

 

[C0rvus]

It would sort of help, but WT is just the icing on the overcooked cake that is Bayonetta's ridiculous design.

My buddy brought back a tournament match last night. He was down like 100% and he hit the enemy Cloud with down air at the ledge, and it killed him raw at 31%. Thirty One. I know the guy had to have been DIing straight out for this to happen, but it was still pretty f'ed up.

 

[R3D3MON]

For Bayo's bat within, do you guys think d-smash that cover multiple areas (i.e. both the front and back sides of the d-smash user) is actually a great way for punishing Bayo's bat within? I've found usage with Luigi's d-smash for punishing bat within on overly defensive and WT-spamming opponents because the endlag on the defensive option is long enough for a punish.

 

[Luig]

@LuigiMaster
Those are not guranteed tho. They are all mixups, as stated before. If Luigi players go for a grab after d-smash or up-smash, you can just roll away or spotdodge, or in the case of up smash, just jump away. Also from my knowledge Fox players can actually shield before the second hit of d-smash if they DI down quickly and shield (shields come out on FRAME 1). If Luigi players attack, Foxes can just hold shield and counterattack and possibly get an even bigger punish on the Luigi players, which really sucks. As I said before, d-throw > up-b is definitely not safe at low percents because it does not send opponents far away from Luigi, and Luigi is stuck in million years of endlag. So definitely not safe. People keep mentioning mixups as reason why fox gets combo-ed hard, but what Luigi thrives off of is NOT MIXUPS, its GUARANTEED combos or extremely safe mixups.

Also, doesn't d-tilt send you too far away for jab? And jab cancels are also mixups that can be avoided by quickly spotdodging, shielding, or rolling away from my knowledge. If you are referring to d-throw > d-tilt for the trip chance, the trip is really unreliable and completely RNG dependent, which is why I see most Luigi players not going for that option.

All of the mixups that you mentioned really only work on low-mid level players or players that are really not familiar with Luigi. Basically its really only effective against the FG-level or similarly-leveled players (except for jab cancels, which is probably Luigi's most reliable mixup options).

I just tested it. The dtilt thing actually works fairly well. You don't really need the trip.
And as i said, if they di, the down smash down, they will have both hits hit them.
At a slightly higher percentage, dthrow>dair>nair>usmash is a true combo. However the rest are mixups. :/

 

[R3D3MON]

@LuigiMaster
I'll test it too. From my knowledge tho opponents can just DI out an run away and reset back to neutral since d-tilt does not give enough hitstun for a guarantee followup at low %s.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I wanna see a top like Zinoto or MVD take out the likes of Nairo's or Trela's , or even ESAM's . That would be something amazing for Diddy's metagame growth.

You're aware that Zinoto won landlocked recently, double eliminating dabuz' Rosalina in the process, right?

Edit: It's also worth pointing out that Diddy has convincing winning records against both ZSS and Ryu already.

 

[Luig]

@LuigiMaster
I'll test it too. From my knowledge tho opponents can just DI out an run away and reset back to neutral since d-tilt does not give enough hitstun for a guarantee followup at low %s.

If they run away you can delay the dtilt and grab them.

 

[meleebrawler]

Only in advantage and disadvantage. Her neutral is nowhere near what his was.

Nor does she abuse something to the point where an arbitrary limit is considered (ie. ledge grab limit).

 

[Megamang]

Hit confirm limit!

on a serious note, can someone direct me towards the video of this great DK performance? Preferably the twitch VOD so I can watch the whole thing unfold. If someone just tells me the channel it should be on I should be able to find it. Im sure other lurkers are wondering about this, generally I can go back some pages and find it but I'm not having any luck.

 

[Jamurai]

There's also Zinoto sending Abadango to losers at G3, who many regard(ed) as possibly the best Meta Knight player out there.

 

[Wintermelon43]

There's also Zinoto sending Abadango to losers at G3, who many regard(ed) as possibly the best Meta Knight player out there.

Leo is widly considered the best, followed by Tyrant and Ito. This puts Abadango at 4th best Meta Knight.

 

[Diddy Kong]

You're aware that Zinoto won landlocked recently, double eliminating dabuz' Rosalina in the process, right?

Edit: It's also worth pointing out that Diddy has convincing winning records against both ZSS and Ryu already.

I miss stuff sometimes...

Otherwise, great news! Why isn't Diddy considered Top 5 again? Dabuz' Rosalina is pretty much her only representation...

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Falln, Xaltis, and Rayquaza also exist.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Ulevo]

I find this notion of Bayonetta being comparable to Brawl Meta Knight astonishingly hilarious. The character has very clear weaknesses.

 

[ReRaze]

Megamang just go on twitch and Look up 2GGamings channel, it should be the first past broadcast. Skip to the end for the hype.

 

[bc1910]

Diddy being top 5 is a common opinion in this thread. One that I share as well. He's probably 4th behind the queens. His top players seem to downplay him though. Both ZeRo and MVD put him a lot lower than he is.

Mr R won another tournament in Europe, France. Although he went 3-2 in WF and GF against gluttony's bayonetta (quite surprising because gluttony isn't that good in this game as in brawl, at least until bayonetta has been out). Mr R did play some Cloud as well in GF.

2 bayonettas in top4, along with a greninja/pacman player called elexiao. The other bayonetta I don't remember the name, first time I saw him.

Nice to see some more results from Greninja in addition to Bayo.

 

[Megamang]

Not that I agree with the notion at all, but people were claiming MKs weaknesses for a few years. MK had weaknesses, they just didn't matter. I could say shiek's smashes aren't very safe or powerful, but who cares?

That said, bayonetta has more relevant weaknesses to competitive smash.

I think anyone who dies to Bayo BnB without even trying to use good SDI is being lazy. Until I see effective SDI, and people punishing the incredibly unsafe HSK approaches that shouldn't be being used in neutral like they are, I don't think we can say the character is ridiculous.

A lot of the hate from WTime comes from how lame it is to die to, more than its effectiveness. If you punish her, the game continues at the same pace; if she lands the WT, the game stops, you feel helpless (but not stunned, so you get to pretend you can do something!) and then you slowly see your death coming. That doesn't feel good for anyone.

Someone suggested increased damage taken during Witch Time, in exchange for much less knockback. So she keeps her character identity, and improves on her combo characteristics, while the 'trouble killing' thing is emphasized and no one has to die at 70% because they jabbed... Sure they leave at 130% instead, but then bayo has to win neutral or capitalize on advantage at least once more to secure a kill.

 

[Luig]

If your character is bullied by witch time at the edge, it may be good to pick a walled stage. (this gif is just proof of concept)
(

Spoiler

 

[Greward]

Bayonetta doesn't need to kill you at 30% to be ridiculous though. But she can do it, and it's a plus on her. Maybe the sdi to escape her upB isn't consistent. As of now no one is SDI'ing out of it.

It's not about witch time being frustrating because you are dead before dying, it is actually overpowered. It also has the same effect whether she counters a fully charged fsmash or a small hit. So the only counterplay it has is reading it or using grabs.

And it's not about that one thing, it's the combination of all her tools. She has everything, be it recovery, neutral or disadvantage. Her neutral is maybe not the best in the game, but it's still hella strong. Disadvantage and advantage might go to being the best in the game. And then you add some other overtuned stuff.

We can discuss any amount of times witch times and yeah it's not instant win. You don't press it and instantly win.


The fact that there's quite some people and even top players that want to ban bayonetta may be a sign of something. And we realized pre-nerf Diddy Kong was broken like 3-4 months after release, not just a week.

 

[Megamang]

Hmm, this is an interesting find. Bayonetta players currently like the platformed stages, because with her wall cling/jump she can make it back no matter what if she clings to a wall. This might mix that up. Of course, lots of places don't allow omegas, and I don't think you could force your opponent to take one if they know about this.

Also, landing the initial Witch Time might be easier on walled stages, since they limit your recovery options significantly. I know as megaman I particularly like the walled stages, not only due to walljumps but because they help me land my dair a lot more consistently.


The real question, is are there stages that aren't boxes where this kind of tech can still be done? Witch Time counterplay like this might be more possible than we initially thought, because it is so reactable.

 

[R3D3MON]

Luig
Tested the d-tilt combo on fastfallers (i.e. Cpt. Falcon). Once again it is actually a mixup because opponent can just jump out before Luigi can jab. I cri evrytim. Also for d-smash you can DI up and away or DI away as a fastfaller and also just jump out.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's understandable though since in Smash you move around much more quickly so the same level of precision is considerably harder.

Well maybe if people didn't run around like headless chickens it wouldn't be so hard.

I think EVERY character should have a walking backwards option.

 

[Luig]

Luig
Tested the d-tilt combo on fastfallers (i.e. Cpt. Falcon). Once again it is actually a mixup because opponent can just jump out before Luigi can jab. I cri evrytim. Also for d-smash you can DI up and away or DI away as a fastfaller and also just jump out.

Man.
One last thing though. (i know this isn't a mixup.)
If you catch a fastfaller by the ledge at a releatively low percent (works best with falcon and fox.)
You can grab them and dthrow dair them. They'll fall low enough so that they have to use their up b to recover, and you can cyclone them.
And some mixups can be useful through conditioning and such. They're not useless. If they jump after the dtilt, Luigi might be able to up air them.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Knee jerking is way too prevelant here. People need to calm down before they come to conclusions and say stuff :/

 

[R3D3MON]

Luig
Yeah, d-throw > dair at the ledge is great for gimp setup. The only problem is actually getting someone like Falcon or Fox at that position. This worked pre-patch because apparently at the ledge, certain character's d-throw knockback is reduced (i.e. mario).
For conditioning, Luigi cannot do much since he does not have enough mobility or range to really chase or pressure opponents. For example, the d-tilt combo is not a useful mixup because falcon and fox jump way too high and go too far away for Luigi to chase with up air, and up air has rather lackluster range. The only way Luigi might be able to catch their jump is if Luigi back airs immediately (I do this all the time after doing d-throw > up smash at low percents on fastfallers and midweights). This is the exact reason why Luigi needs GUARANTEED combos and set ups, since Luigi cannot effectively deal with very strong defensive options and characters that have superior mobility than him, which is basically all of the fastfallers.

This is also the same reason why most top-level Luigis don't go with the mixups you listed, since Luigi has very few abilities to properly punish people after conditioning. This is also the reason why a Mario gameplan does not work at all for Luigi. Once again, Luigi mixups are really only effective against people who don't know that jumping, rolling, spotdodging, perfect-shielding, and DI exist in the game. Too many defensive options that Luigi just cannot handle effectively, unfortunately.

 

[Luigi player]

For Bayo's bat within, do you guys think d-smash that cover multiple areas (i.e. both the front and back sides of the d-smash user) is actually a great way for punishing Bayo's bat within? I've found usage with Luigi's d-smash for punishing bat within on overly defensive and WT-spamming opponents because the endlag on the defensive option is long enough for a punish.

I'd try to grab Bayonetta if she tries to use WitchTime. It's also possible to learn the timing of when her Bat Within ends (I was looking at her animation at 1/4 speed to try to see where invincibility stops, for Bat Within I had to estimate, but somewhere when he 2nd leg goes down or something?). It's best to try it out your self, but usually grabbing is your safest bet, since it can't trigger WT and Bat Within works kinda like Superarmor so you can just grab her out of it. That's why I find a good grab important in the MU against Bayonetta.

 

[R3D3MON]

Luigi player
That is definitely true. I think that was also the reason why people were saying that Ness may be a good CP against Bayo, since his grabs sets up for combos and also kills. From what I understand the back hit of Luigi's d-smash coincidentally matches the frames where she is vulnerable after Bat Within, which is basically few frames after her bat animations end and Bayo's character model re-appears on-screen. I've had some success triggering Bat Within with the first part of Luigi's d-smash and hitting her with the stronger back hit afterwards.

 

[Kofu]

It would sort of help, but WT is just the icing on the overcooked cake that is Bayonetta's ridiculous design.

My buddy brought back a tournament match last night. He was down like 100% and he hit the enemy Cloud with down air at the ledge, and it killed him raw at 31%. Thirty One. I know the guy had to have been DIing straight out for this to happen, but it was still pretty f'ed up.

Was this the meteor or the landing shockwave? The shockwave is far too powerful though I'm okay with it KOing, just not how soon it does, since it doesn't hit behind her.

 

[Blobface]

Personally I hate Bayonetta for a variety of reasons, but... bans? It hasn't even been a month since her release, and she's not even close to a character like pre-patch Diddy Kong.