Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Cloud and Diddy are probably tied for having the best neutral in the game. They are, in fact, strikingly similar characters in neutral, with both having giant hitboxes, crazy mobility, autocancellable aerials, and an f4 jumpsquat. Both of their initial dashes/foxtrots are insane, and their short hops/fall speeds are really good for baiting and weaving. Cloud's got way better airspeed (and better run speed), but Diddy has Monkey Flip, so they're about equivalently mobile.

Neither has the frame data to play entirely on reaction (especially against shields), but both have an additional special tool for neutral that pushes them above and beyond--Limit for Cloud, and banana for Diddy. The specials have slightly different weaknesses, since Diddy's banana can be used against him and Cloud has to charge his Limit, but they both serve the same purpose of giving their wielder scary/fatal options that the opponent must play around, thereby allowing him to contest and beat characters like Sheik, Falcon, Fox, and Rosalina in neutral.

It's tough to say which one is actually better (in neutral), though. Diddy has a safe grounded poke in d-tilt which Cloud really wishes that he had, but Cloud's also got a lot more disjoint and walling ability, and pivots are also more useful on Cloud. If someone cornered me against a wall and pressed me to give an answer, I'd probably pick Cloud, though, which says a lot about the character in general.

When someone says that Cloud's tough matchups include Fox or Falcon, what s/he probably means is that "Cloud doesn't body these characters in neutral for free" because he does do that to the majority of characters. I would be willing to bet that Cloud ultimately beats both of these characters because while the neutral is more or less evenish, neither edgeguards him particularly well while they get edgeguarded themselves.

The way to have a winning matchup against Cloud is to have a solid ground game that will force him to bait out non-shield options (or try to tomahawk into a grab) and/or to outspace his n-air with greater range, while also edgeguarding him consistently. Sheik and Bayonetta can do both of these things fairly well, so they are likely to be losing matchups. I am going to say that postpatch Ike and Marth could also be complicated matchups for Cloud, and a patient Greninja can be irksome, but I'm not sure that any of those are losing MUs.

Needless to say, that's a very short list. Cloud's quite good.

I think Diddy is clearly the stronger character because his disadvantage state, unlike Cloud's, is also top quality when Monkey Flip and Popgun cancel B reverse are pretty ridiculous for resetting situations, and his Up-B is pretty hard to intercept when controlled well. His less outright scary advantage state probably more hurts him in doubles as opposed to singles.

Also from what I've seen, Mario and Doc both have strong matchups against Cloud, not so much because they explicitly win neutral, but Cloud is forced to play very carefully around their fast out of shield options. Furthermore, both of them devastate Cloud especially hard with their combo games (think comboing Captain Falcon, it's pretty silly), and can gimp him easily with FLUDD and Tornado respectively. Obviously, Cloud has plenty of tools to win in his fundamentally ridiculous juggle tools and Limit Camping, but he generally can't make as many mistakes as they can in these matchups.

Off topic but I think Ike is slightly underrated in doubles. Before anyone jumps to Cloud comparisons, note that Ike's throws and durability are much better.

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Off topic but I think Ike is slightly underrated in doubles. Before anyone jumps to Cloud comparisons, note that Ike's throws and durability are much better.

Ike is used a lot in doubles but I feel people recognize his potential in doubles thanks to Ryo and Sol's play in doubles.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Ike is used a lot in doubles but I feel people recognize his potential in doubles thanks to Ryo and Sol's play in doubles.

Good to know, just I'm also aware the current meta hype for doubles involves Cloud teams, and several people use suboptimal Double Cloud teams competitively when Cloud actually wants a teammate that's better at holding stocks (and setting up jank).

 

[Luig]

I could see sonic and cloud working like Sonic and ike.

 

[Ulevo]

Tell you what. When you can make a legitimate argument that convinces me that Bayonetta is definitively better than Sheik, and we have tournament results to prove that, then I will conceed she may be a problematic roster inclusion.

Until such time, I am going to write these complaints off as scrub mentality, 'cause that's what it is.

 

[C0rvus]

Was this the meteor or the landing shockwave? The shockwave is far too powerful though I'm okay with it KOing, just not how soon it does, since it doesn't hit behind her.

It was the Shockwave, with rage and at the ledge of Smashville. I'm assuming his opponent DI'ed away for him to die so early. Kinda reminded me of those videos where under the perfect conditions, someone would die at 0 to like, a Luma attack or an Aether or Peach's parasol. The looks people had on their faces were pretty great.

For the record, I don't think Bayonetta as a whole is OP or broken, but her design is questionable and it's clear she's among the best in the game. She does have clear weaknesses and some matchups that look like a disadvantage already. Diddy comes to mind.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Tell you what. When you can make a legitimate argument that convinces me that Bayonetta is definitively better than Sheik, and we have tournament results to prove that, then I will conceed she may be a problematic roster inclusion.

Until such time, I am going to write these complaints off as scrub mentality, 'cause that's what it is.

Keep it real B.

 

[Luig]

It was the Shockwave, with rage and at the ledge of Smashville. I'm assuming his opponent DI'ed away for him to die so early. Kinda reminded me of those videos where under the perfect conditions, someone would die at 0 to like, a Luma attack or an Aether or Peach's parasol. The looks people had on their faces were pretty great.

The base knockback on the shockwave is so ridiculous he may have actually been inputting optimal di. I've had it happen.

 

[Greward]

It's hard to expect tournament results from a character that has been out for less than a month.
Yeah we all know she didn't win genesis 3. Mainly because she wasn't around. There has been no majors with bayonetta yet.

Bayonetta has a bunch of players that are suddenly getting results while they couldnt before. I think it's safe to say that these players couldn't have done that with Sheik, at the very least in this little amount of time.

 

[Luig]

It's hard to expect tournament results from a character that has been out for less than a month.
Yeah we all know she didn't win genesis 3. Mainly because she wasn't around. There has been no majors with bayonetta yet.

Bayonetta has a bunch of players that are suddenly getting results while they couldnt before. I think it's safe to say that these players couldn't have done that with Sheik, at the very least in this little amount of time.

I'm pretty sure Sheik is better, but Bayonetta just might be easier to learn.

 

[Mario766]

I could see sonic and cloud working like Sonic and ike.

It's basically the same, except instead of a smash attack you have a Limit Break.

Cloud has worse throws for set-ups though.

 

[Peppermint1201]

It's hard to expect tournament results from a character that has been out for less than a month.
Yeah we all know she didn't win genesis 3. Mainly because she wasn't around. There has been no majors with bayonetta yet.

Bayonetta has a bunch of players that are suddenly getting results while they couldnt before. I think it's safe to say that these players couldn't have done that with Sheik, at the very least in this little amount of time.

I don't think Ulevo is commenting on Bayonetta's current lack of results and using them to prove her viability, he's saying that until she gets them we can't call her broken or best in the game/better than sheik.


EDIT: Unrelated but Myran is currently on stream at twitch.tv/mvg_league. definitely important to watch since Olimar's viability has largely been shrouded in mystery so far.

 

[Pazx]

A character can be poorly designed and bad for the game without being the best character, pre-patch Luigi is a good example of this, maybe Bayonetta is too. Time will tell.

Mewtwo and DK seem like quite good future prospects for High Tier. At the very least, I could see them reach level of viability. They are just extremely solid characters all around, and have great players to honor them. DKwill, Mew2King for , and of course the infamous Mew^2 for . This is awesome news for me, cause I have both and as secondaries, alongside . ( I play less and less, and & are more niche choices- I use almost as much as them).

But holy ****, DK scoring higher than Diddy as of late is quite a strange sighting. I wanna see a top like Zinoto or MVD take out the likes of Nairo's or Trela's , or even ESAM's . That would be something amazing for Diddy's metagame growth.

Still think the smaller Kong has the most potential of the Top Tiers to future develop. Well, of course not counting .

Just a few hours before Larry busted out the DK, Cyve and Zinoto both won large regional tournaments beating players like Ally, Yika, Light and V115. Cyve busted out the Bayonetta in GF2 but I'm pretty sure he could have done it with Diddy, having already beaten Light - he lost set 1 after MULTIPLE SD's, low % gimps and getting killed by dthrow uair on Delfino. Zinoto's win over Aba (who is not the 4th best MK, what sort of notion is that? PS. We win that matchup convincingly) was already mentioned as well as his double elimination of Dabuz just a week ago, and we still have ZeRo consistently bringing out his Diddy for the Sheik matchup which we see almost every week at 2GGT, as well as other matchups like Peach and Lucario. IC also attended 2GGT, I'm not sure how well he placed but I saw him performing admirably (got 2-0'd tho) against K9. MVD regularly takes sets off of Florida's best, I'm pretty sure he's beaten ESAM at least once. Jtails is apparently back on the come up, C3PO is definitely on the come up (and Seagull has apparently picked up Diddy?), JJ still does well in his little pocket of the world, and I don't really know what Angel has been up to lately but I believe he's still pulling some results in a fairly stacked region. The only "bad news" for the Diddy meta I can see at the moment is Nietono apparently putting the character on the backburner in favour of Sheik (again).

Edit: This is an aside, but I would have really liked to see ZeRo's Diddy against Larry's Fox.

Maybe I should start a Diddy Kong results thread, I know a few other character boards have them. Hmm...

 

[R3D3MON]

Pazx
why was pre-patch Luigi bad for the game?

 

[Aunt Jemima]

>>>

 

[R3D3MON]

soooooo sheik? Mario? ZSS? RYU????????? Saltyness is real.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Did you just compare Ryu to pre-patch Luigi? Ryu is not a brain-dead character lol

 

[juddy96]

A character can be poorly designed and bad for the game without being the best character, pre-patch Luigi is a good example of this, maybe Bayonetta is too. Time will tell.



Just a few hours before Larry busted out the DK, Cyve and Zinoto both won large regional tournaments beating players like Ally, Yika, Light and V115. Cyve busted out the Bayonetta in GF2 but I'm pretty sure he could have done it with Diddy, having already beaten Light - he lost set 1 after MULTIPLE SD's, low % gimps and getting killed by dthrow uair on Delfino. Zinoto's win over Aba (who is not the 4th best MK, what sort of notion is that? PS. We win that matchup convincingly) was already mentioned as well as his double elimination of Dabuz just a week ago, and we still have ZeRo consistently bringing out his Diddy for the Sheik matchup which we see almost every week at 2GGT, as well as other matchups like Peach and Lucario. IC also attended 2GGT, I'm not sure how well he placed but I saw him performing admirably (got 2-0'd tho) against K9. MVD regularly takes sets off of Florida's best, I'm pretty sure he's beaten ESAM at least once. Jtails is apparently back on the come up, C3PO is definitely on the come up (and Seagull has apparently picked up Diddy?), JJ still does well in his little pocket of the world, and I don't really know what Angel has been up to lately but I believe he's still pulling some results in a fairly stacked region. The only "bad news" for the Diddy meta I can see at the moment is Nietono apparently putting the character on the backburner in favour of Sheik (again).

Edit: This is an aside, but I would have really liked to see ZeRo's Diddy against Larry's Fox.

Maybe I should start a Diddy Kong results thread, I know a few other character boards have them. Hmm...

Also, Phogos, who could even be the best European Diddy. Really wish he went to more stuff to prove it though. Ryuji as well, another dude who needs to go to more stuff. The best Japanese Diddy.

 

[Vipermoon]

Why are people always failing to realize that character development is very dynamic and takes A LOT of time? Look at how good Sheiks have become over the life of the game. If Bayonetta isn't the best character in the game right now, she will be the best in the future.

Someone is going to reply to this saying "well there are two sides to this, people will adapt to the character development/get better at fighting her in general"

To that I say the development of this brand new charater will be stronger than the adapting resistance. Why? Because Bayonetta is broken.

I don't believe in banning and that is not the discussion I'm trying to have. I just want to make sure people aren't out there saying "you guys are exaggerating her"

 

[R3D3MON]

Cereal Bawks
So using up-tilt repetitively is skilled?

 

[Pazx]

Also, Phogos, who could even be the best European Diddy. Really wish he went to more stuff to prove it though. Ryuji as well, another dude who needs to go to more stuff. The best Japanese Diddy.

I've never heard of Phogos, would you mind sharing some of his results? I'm a big believer in Ryuji though, I remember watching his first (or second) tournament and it was pretty crazy. He had some big wins to his name going into Genesis.

PS. MVD just beat Nick Riddle (again), let's go.

 

[juddy96]

I've never heard of Phogos, would you mind sharing some of his results? I'm a big believer in Ryuji though, I remember watching his first (or second) tournament and it was pretty crazy. He had some big wins to his name going into Genesis.

PS. MVD just beat Nick Riddle (again), let's go.

Phogos is possibly #1 in France atm. It's a shame he didn't attend Cannes Winter Clash. He's beaten Glutonny the last 3 times they faced off. Cyve went to ROF Winter and only got 5th, getting double eliminated by Phogos' brother, Deimos. Phogos ended up winning that tournament.

Some footage:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OA0X70gsbgk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDShan5wy3M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZntTc7gO72Q

 

[Diddy Kong]

MVD MY MO'FAWKING MAN! <3

A Diddy result thread would be nice yeah.

Diddy in Top 5, I told you all way earlier. Good to see it finally come...

To fruitation.

 

[Pancracio17]

Cereal Bawks
So using up-tilt repetitively is skilled?

youre not saying what i think you are, are you?

 

[warionumbah2]

. Zinoto's win over Aba (who is not the 4th best MK, what sort of notion is that? PS. We win that matchup convincingly).

Ito 2-0ing Zinoto with game 2 being a 2 stock will forever be overlooked because Zinoto beat Abadango a MK who's known for having tunnel vision issues(aka no neutral as they call it).

Those two matches were one of the rare moments where the Diddy player didn't outclass the MK player in straight up skill. Examples being Tyrant/Ito vs ZeRo and Salena vs Nietono.

Isn't Zinoto the 2nd or 3rd best diddy? He didn't do so hot against Tyrant in crews either, Zinoto isn't inexperienced in the MU either. Not sure if he pockets MK still.

Edit: completely forgot abadango beat a diddy over in japan nientono or nyankono? The name escapes me.

 

[Jamurai]

Leo is widly considered the best, followed by Tyrant and Ito. This puts Abadango at 4th best Meta Knight.

This isn't set in stone like you're implying, even now. They all have different playstyles which can make them hard to compare directly; Leo and Ito are sort of all-rounders, Tyrant relies on his great fundamentals and utilising all of Meta Knight's tools in neutral, and Aba obviously goes super hard on the Uair combo punish. I agree that Leo is probably the current best either way.

My point was that before G3 exposed Aba as maybe a bit too predictable to succeed at top level, a lot of people saw him as the best... The hard-working top player we needed to realise MK's optimised punish game and show his true power. Only after then did we see the flaw in tunnelling on Uair combos, which raised the importance of working hard on MK's neutral game which is kinda weird. One needs to be very familiar with all his strategies and mixups, considering his relative lack of options (for a top tier).

 

[juddy96]

Ito 2-0ing Zinoto with game 2 being a 2 stock will forever be overlooked because Zinoto beat Abadango a MK who's known for having tunnel vision issues(aka no neutral as they call it).

Those two matches were one of the rare moments where the Diddy player didn't outclass the MK player in straight up skill. Examples being Tyrant/Ito vs ZeRo and Salena vs Nietono.

Isn't Zinoto the 2nd or 3rd best diddy? He didn't do so hot against Tyrant in crews either, Zinoto isn't inexperienced in the MU either. Not sure if he pockets MK still.

Edit: completely forgot abadango beat a diddy over in japan nientono or nyankono? The name escapes me.

Nietono, but he plays Sheik now

 

[FallofBrawl]

The problem with prepatch Luigi wasn't because he was braindead (a lot of characters can be considered that), it was because he was so linear, and his strength to linearity ratio was too high for mid-level competition. Not all patch changes were solely dedicated to top level play.

 

[ARISTOS]

Some quick thoughts over the past week

@

Pretty easy to say contender for top 5. Who would round it out then? We have as certain picks. is still strong but I think she's gonna fall off in time. is getting better, as is . may leapfrog into this position with time, it's still kinda hard to place her.

@

Sheik is definitely still the best character in the game, but if you lose to Bayo you're probably losing WAY harder than vs Sheik. Interested to see the counterplay; don't forget defense against a character is harder to learn than offense using that character (this makes sense right? I hope)

@

iStudying was hype. A good bracket helped him out as well; without Sheik Greninja gets to be brilliant but expecting to avoid Sheiks is pretty up-in-the-clouds type thinking.

@

Can't wait to see more of them (maybe just Pugwest for Marth)

@

Can't wait to less of him (this is hopeless wishing)

@

Suffers in the patched meta. Stronger swords+nerfing of dash-to-shield (which Peach used greatly due to good initial dash+helping get in on campier players) has hurt her.

Still a strong character though, at least IMO

@

Who is playing this guy? Seems to have disappeared completely.

@

Was the nerf to up-throw that bad? Seems to have fallen off after a lot of hype.

 

[Ghostbone]

Tell you what. When you can make a legitimate argument that convinces me that Bayonetta is definitively better than Sheik, and we have tournament results to prove that, then I will conceed she may be a problematic roster inclusion.

Until such time, I am going to write these complaints off as scrub mentality, 'cause that's what it is.

I mean, nobody that's saying Bayonetta is problematic is claiming we should ban her RIGHT NOW.
More that in a few months we'll see how overwhelming this character is for the whole cast to deal with, since obviously in less than a month we're not going to get dominating (4+ players in top 8 using the character) performances.

Then when it happens we can be like, told you so lol.

Did you just compare Ryu to pre-patch Luigi? Ryu is not a brain-dead character lol

Actually the comparison between Ryu and pre-patch Luigi is fairly accurate.
They're both characters that basically try to run into your face and press buttons that are better than your buttons.
Calling either of them braindead is a bit much, but the gameplan is fairly simple, and the gameplan against both characters is to camp them out.

 

[R3D3MON]

FallofBrawl
I agree with that, but Sakurai got rid of one of Luigi's safest way of securing a kill, which is not an easy thing for any Luigi mains. Also D-throw > tornado was really only a problem after rage kicked in. Without rage the setup did not kill until at laest 120% on the opponent, even for lightweights.

I would have been fine with a nerf similar to Bowser's Shell Shock: make the kill confirm still viable, but just limit the range that it works in or make it kill a bit later by reducing the power of Luigi's down-b (angle, damage, knockback growth, etc).

Of course Sakurai decided to entirely butcher the whole setup and early % combos on fastfallers by not only nerfing d-throw, but also nerfing tornado, fireballs, and d-tilt, for reasons not entirely logical or reasonable. People kept saying he got more "creative" combos after the patch, but all of his "creative" options that people listed were do-able pre patch, and now he relies on even fewer true combos and reliable setups at all %, especially for fastfallers, as stated before in the last 3 pages or so.

It's pretty sad to see that people still have long-running stigmas on my favorite smash character :/

EDIT:

ARISTOS
Myran still reps olimar. IDK if Dabuz completely dropped him.

For Bowser: I think the nerf was really not necessary at all, but it clearly shows that Sakurai really dislikes kill confirms in general. He probably nerfed it because it was too much of a noob-slayer setup on FG and such.

 

[Asdioh]

MVD MY MO'FAWKING MAN! <3

A Diddy result thread would be nice yeah.

Diddy in Top 5, I told you all way earlier. Good to see it finally come...

To fruitation.

I remember when Diddy got nerfed "to the ground" and there was a lot of doom and gloom about him, I was saying he was still top 5 material because with a neutral THAT good, you really can't be bad. And you Liked my posts like the intelligent person you are <3

Pazx
why was pre-patch Luigi bad for the game?

Why do we have to go over this so often? Prepatch Diddy and Sheik were both stupid. Diddy could get away with grab->upair over and over and over, and had little reason to even attempt anything else. When that got nerfed, it forced players to try other things, which worked very well, because he has a lot of good options, instead of having one option that overshadowed everything. Prepatch Luigi was the same concept, just not The Best Character. Fireballs (which were safer) into grab, into combos, repeat. It racks up damage, and then it kills. There was no reason to do anything else. After he was nerfed... he still basically has the same game plan, but there's at least a little more reason for him to use other things for similar results. Is his design "good" right now? I don't know, maybe not. He's still pretty straightforward, and doesn't have a ton of options, largely due to his mobility specs, which is a flaw a lot of characters have. Was he overnerfed? I don't think so. Was the nerf healthy for the game? Yeah, I think so.
I'd argue the same with Kirby's transition from Brawl to 4. Bair was "gutted" from Brawl, with noticeably less range, and possibly less disjoint, and the landing lag was doubled. I think it was worth it though, even though Kirby is arguably worse, because he's far more interesting now, with an excuse to use all his moves except Dash Attack.

 

[R3D3MON]

Asdioh
You clearly have no Luigi experience. At all.
Does Luigi have a banana? Is he a neutral-game monster? Does he still have kill confirms that does not put him in vulnerable situations? No, no, and no. Overnerfing the character is never good, and you can clearly see this in tournament results now. He definitely was overnerfed, please don't deny that. When you justify the nerf by saying that he has a reason to use other things, please actually specify, what those other "things" are. Because as far as I know, Luigi does not have some undiscovered, super secret and reliable kill confirm other than d-throw > tornado. If you are gonna mention tornado gimps, just know that most good Luigi players used that technique before the mega nerf (i.e. Boss, False, Con Con).

I'm not gonna talk about fireball setups because there were very clear and definite counter play to fireball setups that other people have already discussed in the past. It was mostly effective in lag-induced FG play, where a lot of BS is possible.

Once again, character stigmas and ignorance is real.

EDIT: For the last 1000th time, all the "interesting things" that Luigi player didn't use pre-nerf was possible before the nerf, and many good Luigi players used all those "interesting things" before the nerf. The nerf just decreased his overall options in his punish game, not the other way around.

 

[TurboLink]

The problem with prepatch Luigi wasn't because he was braindead (a lot of characters can be considered that), it was because he was so linear, and his strength to linearity ratio was too high for mid-level competition. Not all patch changes were solely dedicated to top level play.

—Since release, you’ve watched trends among online battles shift over time, and seen a number of tournaments take place. Looking back, how do you feel?

Sakurai: I’ve checked the results from online matches, but I left all the finer details and research to the monitoring team, so I didn’t really go out of my way to watch things that closely.

—Oh, really?

Sakurai: Yes, because ultimately I need to look out for the novice and intermediate players. I made it my priority to create an environment in which they could relax and enjoy themselves. I have nowhere near the same dexterity as the advanced players (laughs), so I relied on the monitoring team’s data and advice. I honestly think we could make the game more balanced if we only focused on adjusting to For Glory 1v1. If we were to do that, however,Smash would lose its sense of being a party game people can get together and play.

Judging from this, top level play is about as relevant to Sakurai as Jigglypuff and Zelda are to the Smash 4 meta.

Source

 

[Vyrnx]

He definitely was overnerfed, please don't deny that.

Once again, character stigmas and ignorance is real.

Saltyness is real.

Yeah the saltiness is real, clearly.
How would Asdioh have no Luigi experience, when he is a tourney player and before the patch everyone and their grandma had a pocket Luigi? He was brain dead, it is silly for a character to be top ten (or five) using only a limited number of easy confirms off his straight forward neutral.

 

[Thinkaman]

Judging from this, top level play is about as relevant to Sakurai as Jigglypuff and Zelda are to the Smash 4 meta.

Source

Sakurai: To be fair, the people who play online are only a small part of the entire audience. The people who favor solo play just keep playing by themselves. At the same time, there are countless others who don’t play that way. To me, all of these groups are extremely important.

I can't believe it's 2016 and we're still having this conversation.

 

[TurboLink]

I can't believe it's 2016 and we're still having this conversation.

I don't know man, people do lie and go back on their word very often.

 

[R3D3MON]

Vyrnx
Yeah that was true....when people still did not know how to gimp Ness properly. Seriously Luigi was OP because people had no idea what counter play was. Also just because someone is a tourney player doesn't mean that player is an expert with all characters in the game, especially in a game like Smash 4 where there is almost 60 characters.

I was pointing out the reasons why his statement was false and not really justified at all for Luigi, since he didn't really specify what the hidden Luigi's "interesting options" are. If you actually read what I typed, I gave out reasons why Luigi lost more options after the nerf than gaining new ones. It's silly that some people still deny this fact months after the mega nerf.

Good Luigi players play differently than just pockets, and basing wrong opinions on characters that you pocketed is seriously not a good idea.

Honestly I see this hate on Luigi as the same hate on MK's dash attack, ZSS's Boost Kick, Ryu's and Bayo's whole character designs, etc, etc. The list goes on.

 

[Asdioh]

EDIT: For the last 1000th time, all the "interesting things" that Luigi player didn't use pre-nerf was possible before the nerf, and many good Luigi players used all those "interesting things" before the nerf. The nerf just decreased his overall options in his punish game, not the other way around.

Yes, and the same can be said of Diddy Kong. No unbiased person is going to say they wish Diddy kept his frame 3 Upair that had a hugenormous hitbox that killed people at around 80%, and comboed out of throws.

Asdioh
You clearly have no Luigi experience. At all.
Does Luigi have a banana? Is he a neutral-game monster? Does he still have kill confirms that does not put him in vulnerable situations? No, no, and no. Overnerfing the character is never good, and you can clearly see this in tournament results now. He definitely was overnerfed, please don't deny that. When you justify the nerf by saying that he has a reason to use other things, please actually specify, what those other "things" are. Because as far as I know, Luigi does not have some undiscovered, super secret and reliable kill confirm other than d-throw > tornado. If you are gonna mention tornado gimps, just know that most good Luigi players used that technique before the mega nerf (i.e. Boss, False, Con Con).

I'm not gonna talk about fireball setups because there were very clear and definite counter play to fireball setups that other people have already discussed in the past. It was mostly effective in lag-induced FG play, where a lot of BS is possible.

Once again, character stigmas and ignorance is real.

I'm not saying he's perfectly balanced. I'm saying that the nerf brought him closer to something that is healthier/more interesting/less obnoxious, whatever you want to call it. Is he underpowered now? Yeah, sure! Definitely, if you compare him to the S tier of the game, but the same is true of the vast majority of characters.

Yeah the saltiness is real, clearly.
How would Asdioh have no Luigi experience, when he is a tourney player and before the patch everyone and their grandma had a pocket Luigi? He was brain dead, it is silly for a character to be top ten (or five) using only a limited number of easy confirms off his straight forward neutral.

This... is actually pretty true. When I lived in NE, before the Luigi nerf, one of the better players in the area was a Luigi player. I played him many times, and every single time I knew what was coming, knew what to look out for. Not to be arrogant, but I think I outplayed him the majority of the time, but every single time, I would eventually get grabbed, because believe it or not, it's hard to avoid it forever. Get grabbed ~2-3 times, you're in death range for the next grab. I lost every set because he had a safe kill confirm, and I didn't. It was very frustrating!

Since then, Kirby kept getting buffs, and the Luigi nerf happened (though Luigi mains don't seem to mention how the Dair and UpB hitboxes increased greatly, and Dsmash got stronger, or the fact that his throw combo game is still mostly intact) and sadly I haven't played that specific Luigi since then. Despite that, most Kirby mains still despise the Luigi matchup, because Dthrow->Tornado is still a reliable KO confirm on Kirby at a good range of percentage. It's probably just far less effective on fastfallers and heavyweights. You don't need to talk to a Kirby main about how underpowered your character is

Seriously, light weight/floatiness is supposed to at least have the advantage of "harder to combo" to make up for how much earlier you die, yet most of the deadliest combos in the game are easier on characters like Kirby. MK Upair death combos are notoriously easy (MK mains confirm?), Sheik Dthrow->Upair is true at KO percent, you cannot airdodge it. etc.

which is why I get butthurt whenever they call Sheik's upair a 50/50

 

[Mario766]

Pre-Patch Luigi was pretty stupid for even Luigi players. Every Luigi player I talked to hated the character, esp the ditto. It was basically doing what you do to everyone..not it's done against you. It's pretty hard to play against, and down-b just put the icing on the cake.