Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

I think most people still tend to not realize that Diddy has to set up the peel and it can be taken away quite easily. And he's hardly immune to juggling.

We might have to agree to disagree on this. Keep in mind I'm not saying Marth wins. But you make it seem like it's gg at css. That's not what I've experienced, there's counter play to all of Diddy's tools but yeah, you have to play on point compared to the opponent. That's why Diddy wins about 6-4 anyway.

Diddy has plenty of time to set-up the peel after he gets the hoo hahs or Fairs he'll always be getting. For sure it was worse than a slight disadvantage last patch. More on that under the Shaya quote.

The length of Marth's blade is roughly 12-13 units
Possibly an easier reference, Zero Suit's paralyzer hitbox [which I don't think is horrendously inaccurate to it's animation] is 2.4 units in size.

There's also the side by side gifs of Marth's fair being cleanly beaten in range by Sheik pre-patch and post-patch where it's now somewhat reversed.

To reply to your Diddy post: to be fair, I've never been to a tournament this patch yet (I was supposed to go to the Breakout 2 regional today though). When I see Diddy vs Marth examples this patch I can reconsider BeefBaron's estimation of the MU but I doubt it will change much. Most of the other points I made don't get addressed by the patch.

To reply to the quoted post: in my experience from a while ago, Sheik hits Marth and Marth hit Sheik at just about the same distance now. What I should test is when Sheik and Marth hit a 3rd party.

You've overestimated the active frames of most character's counter quite a bit. Almost got Ike's though, and it's really the low endlag on Bayonetta's that makes it so good in my opinion.

Source

Marth/Lucina:

• Counter Active: Frames 5-27
• FAF: Frame 60 (33 frames of lag)

Ike:

• Counter Active: Frames 9-34
• FAF: Frame 59 (25 frames of lag)

Roy:

• Counter Active: Frames 8-27
• FAF: Frame 60 (33 frames of lag)

Corrin:

• Counter Active: Frames 7-29 (Intangible on frames 6-7)
• FAF: Frame 64 (35 frames of lag)

Now for the rest of the characters with counters (I don't count ryu's focus)

Little Mac:

• Counter Active: Frames 4 - 26
• FAF: Frame 63 (37 frames of lag)

Lucario:

• Counter Active: Frames 5-39
• FAF: Frame 80 (41 frames of lag)

Peach:

• Counter Active: Frames 11-31
• FAF: Frame 63 (32 frames of lag)

Shulk:

• Counter Active: Frames 7-43 (Intangible on frames 6-7 on the ground, frames 7-8 in the air)
• Depreciated Active Frames: 7-34
• FAF: Frame 70 (27 frames of lag minimum)

Greninja:

• Counter Active: Frames 8-30 (Intangible frames 8-19)
• FAF: Frame 65 (35 frames of lag)

Palutena:

• Counter Active: 9-31 (Intangible frames 10-26)
• FAF: Frame 75 (44 frames of lag)

Mii:

• Counter Active : Frames 6-29
• FAF : 60 (31 frames of lag)

Bayonetta: (The one everyone cares about)

• Witch Time: Frames 5-21 (Intangible frames 5-16)
• Bat Within: Frames 17-29
• FAF: Frame 45 (16 frames of lag)

Her counter has equal or better startup than other characters, with an overall duration similar to those counters with much later startup times (Ike/Roy/Corrin/Palutena). And of course, an almost incomparably low end lag.

The frames of lag calculations are 1 frame wrong (yes I realize the Reddit guy did this, not you)
( KuroganeHammer cooldown calculation mistakes are probably the most widespread among the mistakes you can make using FAF)

 

[RonNewcomb]

If I was to enter Smash 4 Marth's hitbox data into his Brawl self using BrawlBox and then recreate the buffs, I get this (gif warning!):


Obvious it's not meant to be entirely accurate to Smash 4 Marth but it shows that 1.5 units is the difference between a hitbox not covering the tip to one that extends past it.

Ike's forward air gaining that much extra distance is amazing, especially since the attack is an overhead 160 degree swing that covers his entire front. That's increased range on every area that isn't behind him!

Oh nice. One "unit" really is one fist. Marth took Ryu's advice literally.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Playing Ike is like playing Rock-Paper-Scissors with your opponent but if you make the right choice, you get to knee them in the jaw. Ike's close combat options are pretty great and he's essentially what Ganondorf would be if he wasn't comically terrible. Ike is definitely a character that makes you fear making mistakes.

 

[DblCrest]

And since we're talking about Bayo, here's an interesting question.

Out of the five super heavy weights, which ones deals with Bayo the best?

I'm sorry...I blame Thinkaman for saying 'Heavies'

I've beaten a bayonetta in tournament today by punishing her witch time with a kill move every time.
What is your problem... witch time can be punished like any other missed counter.

I think it's something to be more cautious of since it can result in you losing a stock far easier than the other counters under certain conditions. :S
Other than WT , people really don't use counters in tourneys I've noticed . Are they way too risky or does anyone with good match up knowledge know to expect it all the time? Really hate being on the receiving end of Corrin's especially, though I'm surprised noone seems concerned about that one . Doesn't do much for using it against recoveries of course but damn does it hit hard :x

 

[Nobie]

A thought:

What Smash players call "micro-spacing" is known as just "spacing" in other fighting games.

 

[Tri Knight]

But Cloud's also a character who is phenomenal off-stage with advantage. That N-Air range, speed and KB angle are something to really fear, no? Cloud's a character I can use similar to Falco; I use Falco with a lot of good timing, especially with B-Air, so I use Cloud in the same way, with a lot of good timing and, on an opponent in air, position.

A lot of characters believe it or not, can be very dangerous offstage. You just don't see it often enough in tournaments which really surprises me. But then again, why even risk going out there and attempting a nair when Cloud could be using that time to get a guaranteed fill on his Limit while they're recovering?

The very first thing Clouds should be thinking about as the match starts and as the match comes to an end is filling that Limit Guage.

 

[C0rvus]

A thought:

What Smash players call "micro-spacing" is known as just "spacing" in other fighting games.

Yeah, it's just a bit more complicated in Smash because movement is more complex.

 

[R3D3MON]

Watching 2GGT: EE Saga tourney right now.....
Larry is God...

 

[ARGHETH]

Really hate being on the receiving end of Corrin's especially, though I'm surprised noone seems concerned about that one . Doesn't do much for using it against recoveries of course but damn does it hit hard :x

It's more like the other counters (FE crew in particular), so it's not as concerning. The lack of Bat Within and startup time, in particular, make it decent instead of great.

 

[Trifroze]

A thought:

What Smash players call "micro-spacing" is known as just "spacing" in other fighting games.

It's understandable though since in Smash you move around much more quickly so the same level of precision is considerably harder.

 

[Sonicninja115]

You've overestimated the active frames of most character's counter quite a bit. Almost got Ike's though, and it's really the low endlag on Bayonetta's that makes it so good in my opinion.

Source

Marth/Lucina:

• Counter Active: Frames 5-27
• FAF: Frame 60 (33 frames of lag)

Ike:

• Counter Active: Frames 9-34
• FAF: Frame 59 (25 frames of lag)

Roy:

• Counter Active: Frames 8-27
• FAF: Frame 60 (33 frames of lag)

Corrin:

• Counter Active: Frames 7-29 (Intangible on frames 6-7)
• FAF: Frame 64 (35 frames of lag)

Now for the rest of the characters with counters (I don't count ryu's focus)

Little Mac:

• Counter Active: Frames 4 - 26
• FAF: Frame 63 (37 frames of lag)

Lucario:

• Counter Active: Frames 5-39
• FAF: Frame 80 (41 frames of lag)

Peach:

• Counter Active: Frames 11-31
• FAF: Frame 63 (32 frames of lag)

Shulk:

• Counter Active: Frames 7-43 (Intangible on frames 6-7 on the ground, frames 7-8 in the air)
• Depreciated Active Frames: 7-34
• FAF: Frame 70 (27 frames of lag minimum)

Greninja:

• Counter Active: Frames 8-30 (Intangible frames 8-19)
• FAF: Frame 65 (35 frames of lag)

Palutena:

• Counter Active: 9-31 (Intangible frames 10-26)
• FAF: Frame 75 (44 frames of lag)

Mii:

• Counter Active : Frames 6-29
• FAF : 60 (31 frames of lag)

Bayonetta: (The one everyone cares about)

• Witch Time: Frames 5-21 (Intangible frames 5-16)
• Bat Within: Frames 17-29
• FAF: Frame 45 (16 frames of lag)

Her counter has equal or better startup than other characters, with an overall duration similar to those counters with much later startup times (Ike/Roy/Corrin/Palutena). And of course, an almost incomparably low end lag.

Woops, I should have remembered that. Just looked over it last week.

 

[Kofu]

A lot of characters believe it or not, can be very dangerous offstage. You just don't see it often enough in tournaments which really surprises me. But then again, why even risk going out there and attempting a nair when Cloud could be using that time to get a guaranteed fill on his Limit while they're recovering?

The very first thing Clouds should be thinking about as the match starts and as the match comes to an end is filling that Limit Guage.

I disagree, though as I'm not a Cloud player my opinion may not hold as much water as someone who is.

Limit is an amazing thing to have, in a lot of ways comparable to moves like Charge Shot, only it's a lot more versatile and comes with an added bonus of increasing Cloud's movement specs. The threat of it can dictate the pace of a match. However, it has a a little more of a pronounced downside than other chargeable moves in that he can't use his specials. It's not a huge problem, since one of them is specifically designed to increase Limit anyway, and his normals are excellent, but it's something to be noted.

Anyway, charging Limit isn't Cloud's main goal in the game. His goal is the same as everyone else's: to take the opponent's stocks. If you can do that by gimping them with NAir quicker than you can do it by charging Limit, then by all means, do it.

 

[Halifax?]

Larry's Fox lost 2-0 to Void's Sheik. Larry's DK proceeded to win the set 3-2 and then beat Zero's Diddy game 1. If only to witness that I'm glad rage is a thing.

 

[FallofBrawl]

After watching Larry's DK vs Sheiks, I've come to an unpopular opinion:

DK can potentially ledge guard Sheik as hard as she ledge guards him.

 

[Tri Knight]

I disagree, though as I'm not a Cloud player my opinion may not hold as much water as someone who is.

Limit is an amazing thing to have, in a lot of ways comparable to moves like Charge Shot, only it's a lot more versatile and comes with an added bonus of increasing Cloud's movement specs. The threat of it can dictate the pace of a match. However, it has a a little more of a pronounced downside than other chargeable moves in that he can't use his specials. It's not a huge problem, since one of them is specifically designed to increase Limit anyway, and his normals are excellent, but it's something to be noted.

Anyway, charging Limit isn't Cloud's main goal in the game. His goal is the same as everyone else's: to take the opponent's stocks. If you can do that by gimping them with NAir quicker than you can do it by charging Limit, then by all means, do it.

But at the same time, not only does Limit assist by giving Cloud more kill options, but it also gives him a huge boost in speed on both the ground and the air, which furthers his stage dominance and shield pressure. It gives him more options in general and of course he can use specials. In fact, you might want to. Take Cross-Slash for instance. Normal Cross-slash does 19% damage. Limit Cross-Slash does 26% damage, is intangible during the action, and can kill almost as early as f-smash. Regardless of killing, that's a huge way to rack up damage with Cloud and even put the fear into opponents. Or what about if you're on the receiving end, being thrown off stage? You'll immediately wish you had Limit Climhazzard. Even Limit Blade Beam is a perfect tool to catch an opponent off guard.

Though I understand where youre coming from. Going out there and throwing a nair at a Toon Link who just double jumped from below and gimping him is a lot more effective for obvious reasons.

Do be aware that I am certainly not saying run away the whole match and charge Limit. The trick is learning when to charge and when not to but keeping Limit in mind is always important.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Larry's Fox lost 2-0 to Void's Sheik. Larry's DK proceeded to win the set 3-2 and then beat Zero's Diddy game 1. If only to witness that I'm glad rage is a thing.

Rage is a heavy character's trump card honestly.

It's the kind of thing that can turn matches in a second. The main reason why they still see play, because they're almost never done. They just need a couple good hits.

Actually... That brings up another good question.


Who are the biggest benefactors of rage?

Who benefit from it the least?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Benefits the most in no order:

The least: I can't really pick one, they all become fairly good, but probably (already really strong)

 

[thehard]

ZeRo slays Sheiks with his Diddy
Larry reversals VoiD with DK (this has happened before)

At a top level, comfort picks > counter picks.

Also DK's up-tilt is amazing at covering Sheik's ledge jump which is her best ledge option. His range really helps in that MU and makes trades favorable.

I recommend everyone watch the top 8 of that 2GG tournament.... ridiculously hype.

Larry and VoiD are perfect/regular pivot GODS. They along with ZeRo keep innovating this game, I always learn something new from their sets. Simple optimizing of punishes (VoiD doing landing nair > grab rather than dash grab [I literally never see Sheiks do this]) to crazier stuff like Firefox being used as a legit airdodge trap. Just go watch the vods, I don't like watering some sets down to "highlights".

The way these players approach the game has confirmed something I've felt for a while: a lot of Smash players are too obsessed with the guaranteed and it's debilitating to their play. The most successful players are the ones who "go with the flow" and make decisions on the fly and change their gameplan if it's not working. We say players shouldn't be getting trumped now and Larry tops off a comeback with a trump to bair on ZeRo, because he knew he would stall with the pressure he was laying down. We say Sheiks should always be Vanish snapping above the ledge and Larry hits the 2 frame on VoiD. Play by ear!

Does anyone else think Diddy:DK is even?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Benefits the most in no order:

The least: I can't really pick one, they all become fairly good, but probably (already really strong)

really doesn't like Rage. Most of why she's bad in this game has to do with engine changes from Brawl, whether it's ledge mechanics nerfing her edgeguarding and planking, or airdodge landing lag hurting her elusiveness, or Rage causing her to die even earlier than usual while being too light to abuse it herself.

 

[R3D3MON]

thehard
When Larry pulled that airdodge read into firefox kill on Xzax, I thought I was watching Melee Westballz. Soooooo much disrespect.

And yes Larry and VoiD definitely proving me wrong with their perfect pivots. Also interesting to note that Larry employed PP u-tilt and PP shield with even DK mid-match.

Watching his DK reminded me of the days when he had Luigi as a pocket/secondary (before the mega nerf), and he actually beat Con Con in a Fire & Dice tourney during a GF Luigi dittos.

Speaking of Luigi, what do Luigi mains think of Luigi vs. Fox matchup now that the premiere Luigi player has been beaten by a Fox player? Do Fox's mobility and kill confirms outweigh his weaknesses? During the match, it seemed that Luigi was especially vulnerable to dair > up-smash because he was floaty enough to not touch the ground (and thus unable to tech out of the setup), but tall enough to get hit by the sweetspot of up smash.
Do you guys think it has more to do with Con Con as a player (similar to ESAM vs. Mario bros), or should the MU be re-visited?

Some observations I made while I was watching the stream.

 

[Kofu]

But at the same time, not only does Limit assist by giving Cloud more kill options, but it also gives him a huge boost in speed on both the ground and the air, which furthers his stage dominance and shield pressure. It gives him more options in general and of course he can use specials. In fact, you might want to. Take Cross-Slash for instance. Normal Cross-slash does 19% damage. Limit Cross-Slash does 26% damage, is intangible during the action, and can kill almost as early as f-smash. Regardless of killing, that's a huge way to rack up damage with Cloud and even put the fear into opponents. Or what about if you're on the receiving end, being thrown off stage? You'll immediately wish you had Limit Climhazzard. Even Limit Blade Beam is a perfect tool to catch an opponent off guard.

Though I understand where youre coming from. Going out there and throwing a nair at a Toon Link who just double jumped from below and gimping him is a lot more effective for obvious reasons.

Do be aware that I am certainly not saying run away the whole match and charge Limit. The trick is learning when to charge and when not to but keeping Limit in mind is always important.

The way you initially worded it implied (to me, anyway) that you felt like having Limit charged up was the most critical part of Cloud's gameplan. It's definitely huge but I'm more inclined to go in whenever possible, especially when you have such beautiful aerials for edgeguarding like Cloud does. Probably a side effect of using some of the more potent edgeguarders in the game. But I also know how helpful it is to have a charged trump card ready.

Benefits the most in no order:

The least: I can't really pick one, they all become fairly good, but probably (already really strong)

Most light characters dislike rage because they end up dying too soon on average to make good use of it, especially if they lack kill setups or throws. I know generally dislikes rage though his smash attacks do become appreciably more powerful when his percent gets high.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Rage is a heavy character's trump card honestly.

It's the kind of thing that can turn matches in a second. The main reason why they still see play, because they're almost never done. They just need a couple good hits.

Actually... That brings up another good question.


Who are the biggest benefactors of rage?

Who benefit from it the least?

If I had to have a top 5 for both (in no particular order):

Benefit:

- Rage + Deep Breathing = a very scary character. Gives her the ability to kill characters as low as 80% with easy to land attacks like sun salutation and ftilt. Uthrow becomes a reliable kill throw and can in the 150-160 range with both on.

-Dying at 70% from a combo or focus punch into suroyuken is pretty common place. Lots of Ryu's attacks already hit like a truck and this just makes him more potent.

- Rage + aura = the Comeback King. Dying at 60% from bair or a stray smash attack is not at all unusual if Lucario has max rage.

- Loses some of his combo ability but gains the ability to kill ridiculously early. Fsmash, the tree, axe, and triple turnips get sizable boosts and can sneak in kills in the 40-60% range.

- Captain Fundamentals can wrack up damage and secure kills following tiny mistakes with relative ease with rage on.

Honorable Mention: - If he lives to the point of rage, he's a scary character to fight but that's the catch.
Honorable Mentions: - Counter and the waft may be the best comeback moves in the game with rage on.


Doesn't Benefit:

- Screws up the juggling aspects of his gameplay.
- I hear a lot of Shiek mains complain about how it can screw up the timing of her strings and make her kill set ups harder to do.
-A design aspect of the character that's as cruel as it is ironic, rage makes it easier for characters to DI or even just simply fall out of his smash attacks.
- Seems to mess up strings and QAC set ups.
- Messes up the timing for what few reliable kill set ups she has.

 

[NairWizard]

Cloud and Diddy are probably tied for having the best neutral in the game. They are, in fact, strikingly similar characters in neutral, with both having giant hitboxes, crazy mobility, autocancellable aerials, and an f4 jumpsquat. Both of their initial dashes/foxtrots are insane, and their short hops/fall speeds are really good for baiting and weaving. Cloud's got way better airspeed (and better run speed), but Diddy has Monkey Flip, so they're about equivalently mobile.

Neither has the frame data to play entirely on reaction (especially against shields), but both have an additional special tool for neutral that pushes them above and beyond--Limit for Cloud, and banana for Diddy. The specials have slightly different weaknesses, since Diddy's banana can be used against him and Cloud has to charge his Limit, but they both serve the same purpose of giving their wielder scary/fatal options that the opponent must play around, thereby allowing him to contest and beat characters like Sheik, Falcon, Fox, and Rosalina in neutral.

It's tough to say which one is actually better (in neutral), though. Diddy has a safe grounded poke in d-tilt which Cloud really wishes that he had, but Cloud's also got a lot more disjoint and walling ability, and pivots are also more useful on Cloud. If someone cornered me against a wall and pressed me to give an answer, I'd probably pick Cloud, though, which says a lot about the character in general.

When someone says that Cloud's tough matchups include Fox or Falcon, what s/he probably means is that "Cloud doesn't body these characters in neutral for free" because he does do that to the majority of characters. I would be willing to bet that Cloud ultimately beats both of these characters because while the neutral is more or less evenish, neither edgeguards him particularly well while they get edgeguarded themselves.

The way to have a winning matchup against Cloud is to have a solid ground game that will force him to bait out non-shield options (or try to tomahawk into a grab) and/or to outspace his n-air with greater range, while also edgeguarding him consistently. Sheik and Bayonetta can do both of these things fairly well, so they are likely to be losing matchups. I am going to say that postpatch Ike and Marth could also be complicated matchups for Cloud, and a patient Greninja can be irksome, but I'm not sure that any of those are losing MUs.

Needless to say, that's a very short list. Cloud's quite good.

 

[warionumbah2]

I guess the range and power buffs on Ike's most useful aerials really helped out the character's competitive viability.

Time for meta knights to really polish their punish game.

EDIT: I did not mean to sound offensive to any meta knight mains.

You're not wrong though, considering abadango and leo drops the combo as well. Also sebrik beat ryo on the same day.

 

[Diddy Kong]

After watching Larry's DK vs Sheiks, I've come to an unpopular opinion:

DK can potentially ledge guard Sheik as hard as she ledge guards him.

DK vs Sheik is do-able actually. Only thing that's really terrible is Needles.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Speaking of Luigi, what do Luigi mains think of Luigi vs. Fox matchup now that the premiere Luigi player has been beaten by a Fox player?

I think Luigi_player who is arguably the 2nd best Luigi thinks the matchup is evenish and Larry has a winning record over Concon as well. It's possible that Luigi doesn't actually win the matchup.

 

[Yikarur]

Bayonetta: (The one everyone cares about)

• Witch Time: Frames 5-21 (Intangible frames 5-16)
• Bat Within: Frames 17-29
• FAF: Frame 45 (16 frames of lag)

KuroganeHammer
DO YOU SEE THIS?
EVERYONE is using FAF wrong. It's not intuitiv at all. It sucks.

(btw you should count "lag" from the last frame of witch time, bats within are still ending lag, just that you cannot hit here with full force but you still got far more time for the punish, and not just 15!! frames, but 23)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Bat Within isn't ending lag, if you hit her during it she can punish you for it.

 

[Ulevo]

Meta Knight likely benefits the most with rage. Most characters begin dying around 3-13% with max rage.

 

[Yikarur]

Bat Within isn't ending lag, if you hit her during it she can punish you for it.

oh really. It's still "ending lag" for the purpose of counting.

 

[bc1910]

But it's not lag, it's Bat Within. It's a completely different state.

 

[Smog Frog]

sorry i'm late to the rage convo but...

actually quite likes rage. with a bit of juice, his throws kill at roughly 150%, a massive improvement from the 170% average. and he can do kill combos out of spin dash at 130% with rage(spindash->dj uair, spin charge->nair).

as for characters that hate it, it would probably be anyone who has difficulty securing safe kills and are light themselves or otherwise easy to kill( come to mind)

 

[KuroganeHammer]

But it's not lag, it's Bat Within. It's a completely different state.

pre much this

 

[Mario766]

sorry i'm late to the rage convo but...

actually quite likes rage. with a bit of juice, his throws kill at roughly 150%, a massive improvement from the 170% average. and he can do kill combos out of spin dash at 130% with rage(spindash->dj uair, spin charge->nair).

as for characters that hate it, it would probably be anyone who has difficulty securing safe kills and are light themselves or otherwise easy to kill( come to mind)

Sonic 'likes' rage, until he dies early because his kill options are way weaker compared to others.

It's one of the big reasons Ike wins the MU, say hello to dying at 80. Sonic's much of the way of the previous ones, his kill options are pretty difficult without a hard read, since his throws aren't very strong at killing.

Ike with rage is fickle

Combos are better, but his kill confirms are harder to hit. He has a double-edged sword with rage, but all-in all it's better because stray hits kill much earlier.

 

[TurboLink]

Meta Knight likely benefits the most with rage. Most characters begin dying around 3-13% with max rage.

How is he even supposed to stay alive that long?

 

[R3D3MON]

I think Luigi_player who is arguably the 2nd best Luigi thinks the matchup is evenish and Larry has a winning record over Concon as well. It's possible that Luigi doesn't actually win the matchup.

Yea I always wondered why everyone though Fox got demolished by Luigi. Fox actually is the perfect weight for a lot of d-throw setups to not work properly. For most early % d-throw combos he can just DI down and shield immediately because of his fall speed and gravity (he was able to do this PRE NERF). Luigi only has a few damaging guaranteed combos on Fox from smashes, which do not give more than 30% max, and up-b, which has a million frames of lag and Fox likely has time to make the % back real quick. Compared this to middle and lightweights, where most of his aerial combos work from d-throw starting at 0%, just like pre nerf. Luigi relies heavily on mixups in order to damage fox at lower percents. Also the loss of d-throw > tornado, which was the reason why the MU was terrible in the past because Fox is super light and tornado had enough knockback to kill someone like Fox extremely early, is gone now, so Luigi can't really take the greatest advantage of Fox's physical attributes, unlike other combo characters.

Fox has various working kill confirms that work better on Luigi than some other characters, so he can kill Luigi extremely early, making Luigi's ability to rack up quickly, (which is limited on fox compared to more floaty characters), not as useful.

Fox still has to fear Luigi's tornado gimp tho from what I understand. Fox players should most likely focus on not getting set below-stage, and not using side-b predictably (because that is almost a free d-smash or up-smash if you read it properly)

 

[R3D3MON]

How is he even supposed to stay alive that long?

Very good point. He can probably survive at high % against someone like pikachu as long as the MK player DIs properly against up-throw > thunder.

 

[Jamurai]

I think it's very easy to just dismiss anyone calling Bayo broken without actually thinking about it. There's been a lot of "haha what are you talking about" without much actual debate, even when valid points are brought up on the side of why Bayo is so damn good (hyperbole present or not). Classic retaliations such as "she's still quite new" are falling down as time goes on, and as her players get better at abusing her ridiculous punishes; even MK is jealous. She has so many infuriatingly overtuned qualities which affect every state of her gameplay. She invalidates characters like no other.

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and benefit the most from rage in my opinion. Any character with a global kill combo benefits well obviously, but MK's kills so early on and has so many ways to set up into it, that things get very scary. Lucario is obvious.

.​

 

[Diddy Kong]

Bayonetta is a potential future treat for the metagame, but up to now... It's just ridiculous to state she's absolutely broken and changes the metagame for the worse by just excisting. Cloud is also very recent, but he already has significant results to boot. That's a huge difference.

Bayonetta should just be observed as of now, and am pretty sure there are already enough people looking into her in-debt. If something significant is discovered, am sure we'll learn of it quickly. As of now, it seems common metagame treats as Sheik and Diddy are still troublesome for her to deal with. So am not actually too bothered.

Sheik is more of a problem tbh.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yea I always wondered why everyone though Fox got demolished by Luigi.

Ftr neither Fox mains nor Luigi mains ever actually argued that to my knowledge. It was always seen as relatively close to even.