Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Jamurai]

I'm confused. You guys make the Marth/Diddy matchup sound really bad for Marth. And then say "40:60" like slight disadvantage ie. a minor issue? To clarify, which is it?

People seem afraid to call matchups worse than 40:60 (or better than 60:40) cause it seems extreme or whatever. But if you list reasons why a character is at a significant disadvantage in a matchup then it has to be worse than that.

 

[Fex13]

Exaggeration? If not then explain please.

you have 80% or more. one wrong move (be it a freaking jab or tilt). gg. thats why.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I'm confused. You guys make the Marth/Diddy matchup sound really bad for Marth. And then say "40:60" like slight disadvantage ie. a minor issue? To clarify, which is it?

People seem afraid to call matchups worse than 40:60 (or better than 60:40) cause it seems extreme or whatever. But if you list reasons why a character is at a significant disadvantage in a matchup then it has to be worse than that.

To clarify I don't think it's worse than 60-40 Diddy Kong for the reasons I stated.

Diddy has a better neutral because of his safety. But Marth has tools to beat his options outright and juggle and edgeguard him pretty hard. He sort of clearly wins in the footsies game too because of his range and disjoint. Much more power in general too.

But at the end of the day Marth has much higher commitment and much less reliable kill setups. Diddy wins still, but to say that he destroys Marth after all his buffs is way too strong IMO.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So when are we banning Bayonetta?

The character is four times the character Meta Knight ever was.

We're not because she loses to Sheik and Diddy at least. In case you haven't forgotten there's still a character in this game with zero losing MUs who isn't getting banned any time soon.

 

[Pancracio17]

its a joke
EDIT: or not

 

[Smog Frog]

having a strong af punish game doesnt make you broken...we can already point to characters where this is heartbreakingly true()

but witch time is a ****ing ******** move, i'll give you that.

i don't think she's better than .

side note: i think dair is the best divekick dair in the game. stupid disjoint, lowest landing lag of any of them(26, followed by at 28) and does LARGE amounts of damage if you catch them in the air.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

you have 80% or more. one wrong move (be it a freaking jab or tilt). gg. thats why.

You talking about Bayonetta or Ganondorf?

 

[C0rvus]

You talking about Bayonetta or Ganondorf?

Let's be real, he was talking about Puff.

 

[Tri Knight]

The fact that witch time allows time for about 2 smash attacks in the lower percents and basically a free kill at higher percents is outrageous. The amount of damage it can do in between all that is stupid. Not to mention it comes out ridiculously quick and recovers at a decent enough speed is just flat out stupid. Everything else about her is fine though. It literally makes all other counters look like garbage.

Like its active on Frame 5. Are you kidding me? That's almost as fast, and even faster, than some jabs.

I can guess For Glory players won't be able to deal with her though, so Ill assume they'll do one last patch... maybe just for her.

 

[Ghostbone]

having a strong af punish game doesnt make you broken...we can already point to characters where this is heartbreakingly true()

Ganon and Zelda don't have good punish games.

Ganon has a decent spacing game and can make good reads, he doesn't ever get 40-50% conversions though and most of his kills are 100+ with safe moves like bair and fair lol.

And you can make basically any mistake vs zelda except badly spacing something on her shield, and you'll be fine

 

[Y2Kay]

What is really killin' me about witch time is that you can't punish with grabs like you can with other counters.

C'mon nintendo, it has way better reward than practically any other counter in the game, but you make it harder to punish than any of the other inferior counters?

Dang it Sakurai!

 

[Tri Knight]

Not to mention even if you avoid the first part of Witch Time, you still have to deal with Bat bs, which - wow what do you know - puts her behind you for a free counter attack/grab.

 

[Mister M]

See, I disagree with your view. Bayonetta and Ryu's difficulty are overstated. If anything, a good chunk of Duck Hunt, Shulk, and Pac Man's difficulty come from their lack of overtuned or low-commitment options. Their moves are strictly worse than better characters' on top of being somewhat unintuitive.
Ryu's tools can be applied very creatively and he can really be pushed to a technical extreme (I mean, look at Hooded). But at the same time he has some very safe bread and butters that work well. Since there is less of a need to deviate from those tools that I find it hard to consider them difficult from a baseline perspective.

Of course, this all assumes this isn't top level. EVERYONE is very hard to succeed with at top level, since it becomes less and less about the characters, and more about your opponent, since your character should be second nature to a top level player.

I don't think Ryu or bayonetta are difficult characters. They are equally distinctly different and unintuative as the chars you mentioned. Everyone who first picks up bayonetta has to remember she has 2 upbs', only accessible after a jump. And she has multi hit/continuous aerial moves with chip damage in all areas. First time you touch her, bayonetta is seriously weird. But these things are easily learned. She is different but not difficult.

You are right in saying they just have strictly better move overall.

If you gave him 6% pellets, he'd be much scarier than Ryu. Just think about it.

It was an attempt to give megaman something as match up warping as TSRK. Inspite of Ryu's high committal mobility and lack of reliable zoning tools, the TSRK keeps him relevent regardless of if he's lost in his opponents game plan, or whether he's in his element. Mega/pacman have no such clutch factors. You just work your hardest to push those buttons, with no real gimmicks on your side. This is obvious though.

With 6% pellets I imagine megaman would focus on getting to throw kill%'s. Sounds like cancer.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I'm confused. You guys make the Marth/Diddy matchup sound really bad for Marth. And then say "40:60" like slight disadvantage ie. a minor issue? To clarify, which is it?

People seem afraid to call matchups worse than 40:60 (or better than 60:40) cause it seems extreme or whatever. But if you list reasons why a character is at a significant disadvantage in a matchup then it has to be worse than that.

Matchups in general don't really tend to swing much further than 35-45% in disadvantage. So yes, I could say Marth loses to Diddy with at least 35-65, but Diddy beats others worse than Marth. I don't really believe there are that many 20-80 matchups for example. And 30-70 is already pretty bad, I could say that Ganondorf-Sheik for example would be 25-75.

For a best estimation from 0-100, I'd say... 38 seems reasonable.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Exaggeration? If not then explain please.

1) Most of her matchups in mid tier and lower are 100-0

2) Can zero death most of the cast with ease

3) Has no disadvantaged state, primarily thanks to Witch Time and Bat Within (frame 1 air dodges are REALLY dumb)

4) Witch Time, ***** Time, this move when triggered kills you at any percentage, and is fast enough to be a combo breaker

5) Forces every character in the game to approach her bar Sheik and a couple of others

6) Literally ungimpable

7) Extremely potent edgeguarding, Dair beats or trades with almost every recovery in the game

8) Jab does 22%

9) Multiple <frame 10 moves that KO confirm from the 40-120% range

10) Probably the safest ground pressure in the game

11) Extremely good spacing tools with nair (beats everything when fast fell), and bair (it's as good as ZSSs)

12) No weaknesses. Literally none. Her movement stat's are slightly below average but it doesn't matter because she can ABK in 4 different directions

The character is literally busted and will kill the game if she isn't removed. She's without a doubt better than Sheik.

 

[Vipermoon]

Diddy Kong Thanks. Brawl Diddy was crazy with two transcendent bananas, glide toss, and other things. Of course Marth was a freakin fortress in Brawl but he still struggled, especially on anything except top level.

RedBeefBaron Diddy almost doesn't get juggled period, especially by Marth.

Marth's power and edgeguarding doesn't matter when he is the one that is getting knocked off-stage most of the time.

Any character that can play a bait and punish style against Marth has it made. Diddy can do this in spades. Furthermore, almost anything Marth does to Diddy's shield can be punish with Banana OoS (roll cancelled throw or someting?) and it's not like he can get good damage or follow-ups out of grabs.

Marth usually can't beat Fair or Monkey Flip attack. The problem is that he doesn't have any hitboxes in Smash 4 except a small one on his forearm and two on his sword. Combine this with his short lasting, arcing sword that will leave you open, Diddy will win unless your timing is perfect.

I'm very familiar with this MU. Michigan is full of Diddy.

 

[Thinkaman]

Most of her matchups in mid tier and lower are 100-0

Has no disadvantaged state

this move when triggered kills you at any percentage

Literally ungimpable

No weaknesses. Literally none.

The character is literally busted and will kill the game if she isn't removed.

She's without a doubt better than Sheik.

Saving every one of these gems for posterity.

 

[Y2Kay]

1) Most of her matchups in mid tier and lower are 100-0

2) Can zero death most of the cast with ease

3) Has no disadvantaged state, primarily thanks to Witch Time and Bat Within (frame 1 air dodges are REALLY dumb)

4) Witch Time, ***** Time, this move when triggered kills you at any percentage, and is fast enough to be a combo breaker

5) Forces every character in the game to approach her bar Sheik and a couple of others

6) Literally ungimpable

7) Extremely potent edgeguarding, Dair beats or trades with almost every recovery in the game

8) Jab does 22%

9) Multiple <frame 10 moves that KO confirm from the 40-120% range

10) Probably the safest ground pressure in the game

11) Extremely good spacing tools with nair (beats everything when fast fell), and bair (it's as good as ZSSs)

12) No weaknesses. Literally none. Her movement stat's are slightly below average but it doesn't matter because she can ABK in 4 different directions

The character is literally busted and will kill the game if she isn't removed. She's without a doubt better than Sheik.

Are you sure you're not embelishing?

Like....not even a little?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Saving every one of these gems for posterity.

Not sure if you're mocking me orrrr...?

 

[busken]

6) Literally ungimpable

3) Has no disadvantaged state, primarily thanks to Witch Time and Bat Within (frame 1 air dodges are REALLY dumb)

If she is literally ungimpable there wouldn't be a need to put no disadvantage state since being off-stage is one.

 

[Y2Kay]

Not sure if you're mocking me orrrr...?

thinkaman isn't mocking you

the future generations will though.

 

[Luig]

I think I Bayonetta is good, but slightly overrated.

 

[Smog Frog]

ftilt is like a combination of ftilt/utilt. does stupid damage, has wtf reach

good thing it doesnt kill.

 

[Luig]

ftilt is like a combination of ftilt/utilt. does stupid damage, has wtf reach

good thing it doesnt kill.

I don't think it's reach is as stupid.

 

[Smog Frog]

idk man the 3rd hit hits from VERY far away(almost an entire character length. even the attack trail is in front of her leg)

 

[DblCrest]

Smog Frog
...and Snake's grunting whenever he spams it .Let that sink in

Concerning Bayo... I think it would be too hasty to ban her. See how the next few tournaments go with her placing and all.
Give people more time to adjust to fighting her like with Cloud.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't think it's reach is as stupid.

A developer did this when Sakurai denied him the raise. Sakurai never noticed.

 

[Luig]

A developer did this when Sakurai denied him the raise. Sakurai never noticed.

The best part is that the hitbox starts before he extends his leg.

 

[JediLink]

For context KH's posts are at least a little salt fueled. I half-watched him play a tournament set yesterday where I think he was up 2-0 or 2-1 (playing as Bowser), but his opponent switched to Bayo and won the rest. Don't mean to do you dirty man, just trying to be fair.

She's definitely crazy and I fully believe banning her could be a debate to be had in the future, but I just feel like it's still a little too soon. On the other hand, the more people start picking her up the harder it's going to be to get momentum against her. I don't know.

 

[Luig]

For context KH's posts are at least a little salt fueled. I half-watched him play a tournament set yesterday where I think he was up 2-0 or 2-1 (playing as Bowser), but his opponent switched to Bayo and won the rest. Don't mean to do you dirty man, just trying to be fair.

She's definitely crazy and I fully believe banning her could be a debate to be had in the future, but I just feel like it's still a little too soon. On the other hand, the more people start picking her up the harder it's going to be to get momentum against her. I don't know.

That may have to do with, i dunno, using combo food against combo god.
cause with bowser, even with good di....

 

[Greward]

This is smash, even if bayonetta deserved to be banned we would never ban her. Just like in Brawl days.

btw I've never heard serious ban talk in smash4 besides with pre-patch diddy times and even then it was less common than bayo. Maybe she is actually broken.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy Kong Diddy almost doesn't get juggled period, especially by Marth.

Marth's power and edgeguarding doesn't matter when he is the one that is getting knocked off-stage most of the time.

Any character that can play a bait and punish style against Marth has it made. Diddy can do this in spades. Furthermore, almost anything Marth does to Diddy's shield can be punish with Banana OoS (roll cancelled throw or someting?) and it's not like he can get good damage or follow-ups out of grabs.

Marth usually can't beat Fair or Monkey Flip attack. The problem is that he doesn't have any hitboxes in Smash 4 except a small one on his forearm and two on his sword. Combine this with his short lasting, arcing sword that will leave you open, Diddy will win unless your timing is perfect.

I'm very familiar with this MU. Michigan is full of Diddy.[/USER]

I think most people still tend to not realize that Diddy has to set up the peel and it can be taken away quite easily. And he's hardly immune to juggling.

We might have to agree to disagree on this. Keep in mind I'm not saying Marth wins. But you make it seem like it's gg at css. That's not what I've experienced, there's counter play to all of Diddy's tools but yeah, you have to play on point compared to the opponent. That's why Diddy wins about 6-4 anyway.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The fact that witch time allows time for about 2 smash attacks in the lower percents and basically a free kill at higher percents is outrageous. The amount of damage it can do in between all that is stupid. Not to mention it comes out ridiculously quick and recovers at a decent enough speed is just flat out stupid. Everything else about her is fine though. It literally makes all other counters look like garbage.

Like its active on Frame 5. Are you kidding me? That's almost as fast, and even faster, than some jabs.

I can guess For Glory players won't be able to deal with her though, so Ill assume they'll do one last patch... maybe just for her.

Time's weakness is that it is only active until frame 21, and BW until frame 30ish, with an FAF of 43?. Most characters have counters from frame 8-35, so Bayonetta's quick start-up is understandable. The move is still OP though.

 

[Shaya]

Diddy vs Marth in Brawl was one of the most volatile match ups in the meta.
As in, the consensus of who won changed many many times over the course of the game's history.

At release obviously the opinion was Marth > Diddy, Diddy wasn't developed much nor seen as a big threat.
Time pushed it to even, Diddy's favour, even, Marth's advantage (slight) towards the end but I'd honestly say it was easier just to call even.
Results backed stuff up; it was one of those match ups that large advancements were made by both players in play styles. Long and hard match theorycrafting, labbing and whatnot. Marth's banana game was one of the few in the game which could match potency to Diddy's (Marth with items was borked; most ZSS would either just throw away their armor pieces at the start of the match or if they were Salem-level confident manage with just one [but Marth with an armor piece could more easily 0-death ZSS than vice versa]).

We don't get match ups like that in this game (yet), which is a shame.
I suppose Cloud is around to ensure volatile match up hype based around him being punished recovering on streams more often or not...
Thank god no match is unwinnable due to how obnoxiously borked limit cross slash is, and he is otherwise still the best character in the game in limit mode.

In this game, Diddy has been crapping on us [Marf] since release, but the recent range buffs definitely brought things closer. The difficulty of Diddy spacing around Marth's ground/out of shield game (ftilt oos or dtilting his landing for example) is a big factor. Diddy's lack of aerial mobility when he no longer cleanly beats everything with fair makes things a lot more precarious, especially when dealing with jab (fair won't beat every option we'd pick from hitting him with it now, yay~) or more realistically maintaining juggle traps.

 

[san.]

Waldo, an Ike player, apparently beat Marss' ZSS and Ling Ling (Peach?) so far at GUMS 06.

V115 lost to 2 different Ikes recently as well. Does anyone have any reasons why this is occurring? Ike doesn't care about ZSS spaced aerials and flip jump all too much and Ike can kill confirm off grab more easily than other characters, but I never thought it was enough to win the MU.

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground
http://challonge.com/GUMS06S

 

[Thinkaman]

Waldo, an Ike player, apparently beat Marss' ZSS and Ling Ling (Peach?) so far at GUMS 06.

V115 lost to 2 different Ikes recently as well. Does anyone have any reasons why this is occurring? Ike doesn't care about ZSS spaced aerials and flip jump all too much and Ike can kill confirm off grab more easily than other characters, but I never thought it was enough to win the MU.

I was sitting here wondering the exact same thing; not entirely sure what I was watching. (I understand Ike so poorly!)

 

[FullMoon]

In regard to Bayonetta's F-Tilt...

 

[Shaya]

Waldo, an Ike player, apparently beat Marss' ZSS and Ling Ling (Peach?) so far at GUMS 06.

V115 lost to 2 different Ikes recently as well. Does anyone have any reasons why this is occurring? Ike doesn't care about ZSS spaced aerials and flip jump all too much and Ike can kill confirm off grab more easily than other characters, but I never thought it was enough to win the MU.

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground
http://challonge.com/GUMS06S

I can see why Ike players are bringing the bread home in recent times.
Talking about meta match up development, ZSS is actually one of the most volatile characters.
She has no artificial disjoints beyond back air pushing her leg out of the primary plane briefly. Swords have always been difficult for her in trying to beat head on, but for the longest time all she needed to do was shield and grab and it was GG.
To top it off how people deal with ZSS lack of grab and how the zamus' learn to fight back is likely to be dynamically seen for the rest of the game's life span (I would say at the moment with examples like Nairo vs Dabuz at Genesis, that the ball is in the opponent's court).

Depending on how the Ikes are deciding to play neutral, I can see overly zealous ZSS getting their asses down tilted from the ground, rar bairs and fairs contesting in the air, and nairs producing great punishments on dodge usages.
All of these things for Ike produce a lot of damage and pressure.

[ima have a look at the set replay and get back to you/here with more thoughts]
http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/v/51125729
8:05:00 roughly for the set start

 

[Thinkaman]

In regard to Bayonetta's F-Tilt...

Honestly, I'm not going to care all that much about an oversized f-tilt 3 hitbox until the day you can do an f-tilt 3 OoS.

What made Snake u-tilt so terrifying is that he could suddenly pull it out at any given moment.

 

[CBO0tz]

So it seems like the state of Sm4sh is in tatters.. A shame.

Oh well. SFV is pretty awesome.