Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheJolteon]

I still think Luigi should be in C tier not D

 

[Thinkaman]

Sakurai has pretty much spent his entire career espousing the same philosophy, as loudly as possible, to anyone who will listen:
You don't have to chose between making a game for the "casual" or "hardcore."

This philosophy was self-evident in Kirby from the beginning, which is a series of rather easy games with nuanced controls and unusually challenging secrets and achievements.

Smash, Meteos, and KI: Uprising were direct applications of this philosophy to existing genres, showing how we can maximize both accessibility and depth at the same time rather than assume they are fundamentally at odds. He literally has a magazine column where he preaches this on a weekly basis.

Yet some people want to believe that Sakurai hates them so badly, that even after omega stages, even after For Glory mode and online tournaments, even after patches that were aligned with top-level performance and tiers, even after team attack fixes that only applied to offline top-level play, even after Ryu and Bayonetta were basically made exclusively for high-level players, even after Sakurai chooses to reveal the final content update at a major tournament, they still want to pretend that Sakurai hates competitive play.

I dunno, man. I just dunno.

 

[busken]

I still disagree with the nerfs though. I think the dev team could have made him just as viable by giving him more depth as a character.

 

[C0rvus]

Luigi was bad for the game since he was easy and very effective. The only way to succeed against him was to play super lame and not **** up more than once, basically. It wasn't fun for either player. Luigi was never the best character, but you're nuts if you think pre-patch Luigi was a fair and balanced character.
After the nerf, he isn't as dumb. Yes, he's strictly worse and could benefit from being better, but that goes without saying. Unfortunately, in the patches that ensued, we got more characters that fit a similar mold to pre-patch Luigi. Bowser, Ryu, and Bayonetta all fall under that same type of matchup. Play lame or lose in 2 or 3 interactions. It seems like it's an unavoidable character type. Maybe it's more like an archetype, like grapplers in SF/GG/BB.

 

[Flux0r]

Straying away from the competitive vs. casual discussion...

I'm dropping Bowser Jr. https://t.co/1O7v8gc8Xm

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) February 28, 2016

Tweek is dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud.

The Bowser Jr. metagame will be surely affected negatively, since their most important player is now gone.

Who else is repping the character currently? I've never heard of anyone besides Tweek.

 

[R3D3MON]

@Asdioh
Luigi players already mentioned that way before, right after the nerf. Did you check out the Luigi boards?
His buffs are really minor to his nerfs. D-smash still is not one of Luigi's primary kill move and is completely DI-able. Dair hitbox increase does not suddenly make the move super awesome. It still requires setups, which Luigi does not necessarily excel at. Up-b still has millions of endlag and it is almost never safe to throw out as a read, unless your opponent throws out an unsafe attack on a Luigi player power-shielding (Up-b might still miss if you don't hit the opponent character's feet, which means almost-certain doom for a Luigi player). And like I said before, his combo game is not "still intact". Really, please read what I posted before in this thread. Few pages back, during a discussion with Luigi player, I gave several very clear examples of what he lost due to the nerf (not necessarily on lightweights, but on fastfallers especially).

Also, I am very certain that d-throw > tornado is not a reliable K.O. confirm on Kirby, or any other lightweights (or any character for that matter). Tornado got nerfed in power and angle. The knockback growth on d-throw means Kirby gets sent away way too far for it to work. Do you have any source for that? This could be very interesting for Luigi players.

Also, do note that I was in favor of nerfing Luigi, but not butchering his one and only reliable kill setup (and also taking away a lot of his guaranteed combos on fastfallers and heayweights...). It would have been fine if Luigi got Bowser's treatment in terms of nerfs, but instead Sakurai went with the overkill method, which really sucks for Luigi players.

Another thing to note about D-throw > tornado: the setup was completely DI-able and SDI-able, just like any other kill setup in this game. The best way to avoid getting killed was to DI away during Luigi's d-throw and try to get hit by Luigi's foot during the tornado and SDI mash down in order to escape the tornado before the final hit. So...not a kill setup that is unavoidable.

For sheik's d-throw kill setup, is it not possible to DI up and away and jump away or airdodge at kill percents, especially with a floaty character like Kirby?

 

[C0rvus]

Straying away from the competitive vs. casual discussion...

I'm dropping Bowser Jr. https://t.co/1O7v8gc8Xm

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) February 28, 2016

Tweek is dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud.

The Bowser Jr. metagame will be surely affected negatively, since their most important player is now gone.

Who else is repping the character currently? I've never heard of anyone besides Tweek.

Not a surprise at all, really. Still bums me out. Other than V1cegrip, I can't name a Bowser Jr. main. Tweek wants to be the best, Bowser Jr. certainly won't take him there. Neither will Cloud, if we're being real. Wanting to be the best has always seemed like a misguided goal to me. Like, Tweek is very good, but far from the best.

 

[Luig]

I always thought it could be cool if we had a better brawl luigi in smash 4. (not as good as pre patch luigi though.)
He had a better recovery, better kill options, and his aerials were more powerful. He couldn't combo due to the game engine though.
He might have been a much better character in this game engine, though he did have some flaws (like not being able to approach very well.)

 

[Greward]

tbh luigi patch was justified, but they should have buffed him somehow to make up for it.
Luigi is not good atm.

 

[Luig]

tbh luigi patch was justified, but they should have buffed him somehow to make up for it.
Luigi is not good atm.

It is kinda dumb that he gets nerfed harder than Sheik tbh, though, his pre patch version was dumb. He does deserve a minor buff to help him, like fsmash being like it was in brawl or something.

 

[R3D3MON]

Also I forgot to mention this, but Luigi actually lost 3 kill setups with the nerf: d-throw > tornado, d-throw > RAR bair, and d-throw > nair.
What would really help out Luigi in the current meta, IMO, is some form of kill confirm from his grab that works for a specific range of % and is rage-sensitive, similar to DK's ding dong and Bowser's Shell Shock (w/e people like to call that kill confirm ). It would properly reward players for getting in and using the character's greatest strength (the fact that he is a grappler), and getting in with Luigi is not an easy task against any competent players.

 

[busken]

Luigi was actually not bad for the game at a competitve level. When your neutral game is all about getting the grab it contests various mix-ups to actually get this consistently and it might prove player skill if you can't even land a grab. The only thing though is that the follow-ups often gave much reward had little DI mix-ups and as result was quickly classified as broken or spammy both of which are untrue at high level play.

The nerf was bad because players- even veterans, overeacted to this easy yet effective punish game and complained. Yet they forget about the times in brawl where zero to death jab locks existed, chain grabs deemed characters all the more viable, and offense play was seriously dampaned by other various mechanics.

Ultimately it shows a lack of maturity in the community and really hurt Luigi impact on the meta. I do believe he was overall a grab to win character but honestly people need to think before the ***** about things because as I previously said Luigi is becoming less existant in the meta. I feel as though they could have kept maybe his down throw kill confirm but change his midpercent/low percent game by giving other moves more value then just dash grab.

 

[UberMadman]

Straying away from the competitive vs. casual discussion...

I'm dropping Bowser Jr. https://t.co/1O7v8gc8Xm

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) February 28, 2016

Tweek is dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud.

The Bowser Jr. metagame will be surely affected negatively, since their most important player is now gone.

Who else is repping the character currently? I've never heard of anyone besides Tweek.

I'm getting legitimately emotional right now. Now it feels like people are never going to know what this character is capable of because no one else is capable of optimizing him the way Tweek did... ****, dude.

 

[Deleted member]

Not a surprise at all, really. Still bums me out. Other than V1cegrip, I can't name a Bowser Jr. main. Tweek wants to be the best, Bowser Jr. certainly won't take him there. Neither will Cloud, if we're being real. Wanting to be the best has always seemed like a misguided goal to me. Like, Tweek is very good, but far from the best.

Doesn't @Seagull Joe still play him? I'm not sure.

 

[TurboLink]

Also I forgot to mention this, but Luigi actually lost 3 kill setups with the nerf: d-throw > tornado, d-throw > RAR bair, and d-throw > nair.
What would really help out Luigi in the current meta, IMO, is some form of kill confirm from his grab that works for a specific range of % and is rage-sensitive, similar to DK's ding dong and Bowser's Shell Shock (w/e people like to call that kill confirm ). It would properly reward players for getting in and using the character's greatest strength (the fact that he is a grappler), and getting in with Luigi is not an easy task against any competent players.

What do you mean by "get in?" Not everyone forces Luigi to approach.

 

[Luig]

Luigi really suffers against characters with good range. Hell, if he didn't have fireballs, he'd get spaced to death by a lot of characters.

 

[busken]

Luigi really suffers against characters with good range. Hell, if he didn't have fireballs, he'd get spaced to death by a lot of characters.

 

[R3D3MON]

TurboLink
Luigi's specs make it really hard to weave in and out. One of his better approach option was nerfed (fireball). He can sometimes approach with tornado, but this trick only works once or twice because tornado is suuuuper laggy. He doesn't necessarily have the range on any of his attacks (aerial and ground attacks) to safely pressure shield. This was also his greatest weakness in Brawl.

In the case of Kirby, his design basically gets crapped by someone like Ryu or Luigi because his gameplan consists of getting in close, but his frame data doesn't necessarily support this option against characters like Luigi, Mario/Dr. Mario, and Ryu. This is also somewhat similar of a case with Falco.

 

[Mario766]

Even with Fireball he still gets spaced to death by good disjoint users.

He doesn't have the amazing damage racking he does and it seriously hurts him in the swordies MU

 

[Luigi player]

@ Diddy / DK tourney results talk

Diddy definitely has better results overall. I only posted the ones with DK (doing well), Vex also had a top 8 result that I forgot to include.

I have a list of tourney results in the german smash forum, but only for non-european results and only for big or stacked tourneys, and of course only ones that I know of and where I can find out all the characters used. From what @juddy96 posted on saturday, there seem to be many that I'm missing.

If anyone's still interested in some character "ranking" out of those, I've given characters points for their placing, from 1st to 9th place.
It includes tourneys from Nov 2015 - Jan 14, 2016, but again, only ones that I knew of. It also doesn't take entrants or anything like that into account (though since they're like all pretty stacked it shouldn't make too much of a difference).

Spoiler: My little ranking

1.

Sheik - 131 ( = 19,9 % )
2.

ZSS - 64
3.

Diddy - 58
4.

Megaknight - 57
5.

Rosalina - 49,5
6.

Fox - 44,5
7.

Ryu - 39
8.

Sonic - 29,5
9.

Villager - 24
10.

Mario - 19
11.

Cloud 13,5
12.

Pikachu - 11
12.

ROB - 11
14.

Cap. Falcon - 10,1

15.

DK - 9
16.

Ness - 8,6
17.

Bowser Jr. - 7,5
18.

Yoshi - 6
18.

Luigi - 6
18.

Pit - 6
18.

Lucario - 6
18.

Palutena - 6
23.

Pacman - 5
23.

Toon Link - 5
25.

Wario - 4,5
26.

Ike - 4
(etc...)

Total: 657,8

Notes:
- Dark Pit would have 1 point, if you'd want to combine him with Pit, they'd have 7 together.
- Cloud was released during this period (Dec 15th), so results likely aren't that representative?

I'm kinda having problems with this lately - deciding which tourneys are worth including and for some I can't find anything about used characters, which is why this list doesn't include newer tourneys for now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Straying away from the competitive vs. casual discussion...

I'm dropping Bowser Jr. https://t.co/1O7v8gc8Xm

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) February 28, 2016

Tweek is dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud.

The Bowser Jr. metagame will be surely affected negatively, since their most important player is now gone.

Who else is repping the character currently? I've never heard of anyone besides Tweek.

Oh yay, as if Bowser Jr. wasn't underrated enough anyway. It's people like him that makes me add that sentence in my signature.

As for the question, Vicegrip exists.

 

[ARGHETH]

Oh yay, as if Bowser Jr. wasn't underrated enough anyway. It's people like him that makes me add that sentence in my signature.

As for the question, Vicegrip exists.

-.-
He's dropping Bowser Jr because he plays in tournaments and wants to be the best, which just...isn't possible with a character like Bowser Jr. Just because he dropped his favorite character doesn't mean he isn't a "true Smash Player" (whatever that means), it means he's realistic when it comes to working towards a goal.

 

[Luig]

Oh yay, as if Bowser Jr. wasn't underrated enough anyway. It's people like him that makes me add that sentence in my signature.

As for the question, Vicegrip exists.

Yes, because people who know they're being held back by their main and want to do better aren't true smash players.

 

[L9999]

Straying away from the competitive vs. casual discussion...

I'm dropping Bowser Jr. https://t.co/1O7v8gc8Xm

— LG Tweek (@TweekSsb) February 28, 2016

Tweek is dropping Bowser Jr. for Cloud.

The Bowser Jr. metagame will be surely affected negatively, since their most important player is now gone.

Who else is repping the character currently? I've never heard of anyone besides Tweek.

Rest in peace Bowser Jr. Get comfy with Mr. Game and Watch, Duck Hunt Dog and Kirby in low tier for the rest of eternity.

 

[Wintermelon43]

So then, go ahead and play a top tier character you absoluty despise playing as, and use them instead of your favorite video game character of all time? idk if Tweek is like that at all, but I've heard of other people doing that and I woudn't be surprised if Tweek did it too. If you can't do good with your character.... git gud. Picking up a top tier secondary is one thing, that's ok. But dropping your favorite character because he's an underrated mid tier? ugh. What's the point of playing at all then if you refuse to try to enjoy it? Get good and do just as good.

Then again, only puff mains and a few other low tier or mid tier mains (Only a few though) understand this kind of thing, so people will probably keep being like this unless a low tier hero wins the next EVO or something.

 

[Luig]

So then, go ahead and play a top tier character you absoluty despise playing as, and use them instead of your favorite video game character of all time? idk if Tweek is like that at all, but I've heard of other people doing that and I woudn't be surprised if Tweek did it too. If you can't do good with your character.... git gud. Picking up a top tier secondary is one thing, that's ok. But dropping your favorite character because he's an underrated mid tier? ugh. What's the point of playing at all then if you refuse to try to enjoy it? Get good and do just as good.

Then again, only puff mains and a few other low tier or mid tier mains (Only a few though) understand this kind of thing, so people will probably keep being like this unless a low tier hero wins the next EVO or something.

I get your point, but you're sounding ignorant.
Be honest. Do you want to win? I mean, having fun is the #1 priority, but winning isn't too far behind. Some people get joy in doing well in general and reaching their max potential. It's different for different people.

 

[DanGR]

There's nothing wrong with switching to better characters in a competitive video game scene. Please don't [tier]****-shame here.

 

[R3D3MON]

I thought this was the COMPETITIVE impressions thread...

 

[ARISTOS]

Oh yay, as if Bowser Jr. wasn't underrated enough anyway. It's people like him that makes me add that sentence in my signature.

As for the question, Vicegrip exists.

If people dropping mains in order to maximize their chances of winning is a stressor for you, you might want to pick up meditation.

You're gonna see a lot of homogenization over the next year, bar any other changes

Thank god for $5.99

 

[Djent]

Tweek got better results week 1 with than he ever managed with . Switching is obviously the correct decision for him.

Aside from Vicegrip, Koopa Jr. still has Hatsuyuki and Omochi at the very least. To be frank he's lucky to have that much, as a crazy advantaged state with poor neutral & disadvantage just isn't much to boast about anymore. IMO a character is only worth investing in if (s)he is strong in at least two states. Hell, you can be above average in all 3 and still not be that great.

 

[19_]

So then, go ahead and play a top tier character you absoluty despise playing as, and use them instead of your favorite video game character of all time? idk if Tweek is like that at all, but I've heard of other people doing that and I woudn't be surprised if Tweek did it too. If you can't do good with your character.... git gud. Picking up a top tier secondary is one thing, that's ok. But dropping your favorite character because he's an underrated mid tier? ugh. What's the point of playing at all then if you refuse to try to enjoy it? Get good and do just as good.

Then again, only puff mains and a few other low tier or mid tier mains (Only a few though) understand this kind of thing, so people will probably keep being like this unless a low tier hero wins the next EVO or something.

Money bro.

MONEY.

Some people have to make living man.
Like, if dropping a character could get you food on the table would you do it?

 

[False Sense]

Oh yay, as if Bowser Jr. wasn't underrated enough anyway. It's people like him that makes me add that sentence in my signature.

As for the question, Vicegrip exists.

This is literally the No True Scotsman fallacy.

 

[L9999]

Tweek got better results week 1 with than he ever managed with . Switching is obviously the correct decision for him.

Aside from Vicegrip, Koopa Jr. still has Hatsuyuki and Omochi at the very least. To be frank he's lucky to have that much, as a crazy advantaged state with poor neutral & disadvantage just isn't much to boast about anymore. IMO a character is only worth investing in if (s)he is strong in at least two states. Hell, you can be above average in all 3 and still not be that great.

I saw it coming. The moment he beated Nairo with Cloud and bombed at Genesis I knew for sure Tweek would drop Bowser Jr.

 

[Smog Frog]

with the variety of top tier characters there are, it's borderline impossible to NOT have a top tier that clicks with you, and you enjoy playing.

there are simple characters(, once you get past memorizing %), rushdowns(, should you choose to play her that way), zoners(, should you choose to play her that way) mixup heavy(,,), spacing heavy(,,,)

there's more, and i just stuck to the tippy top. go down a bit lower and there's more that can still place well in large tournaments.

 

[Nobie]

I attended Nebulous in NYC today, and did as well as I did last time (2 wins, 2 losses), except because there were fewer people I ranked higher. YAY TECHNICALITIES.

I went all Mewtwo, and I confidently believe that in the hands of an actually skilled and practiced player (i.e. not me), Mewtwo can still go far. Every time I made a mistake, it was me not correctly shifting my focus, or doing something out of inexperience (like taking Bayonetta to T&C like a moron!).

More than anything else, it's confirmed something I've felt for a while, which is that Mewtwo requires very different game plans against huge portions of the cast. A lot of it is trying to find that ideal zone that lets Mewtwo's unique tools shine. As an example, against characters like Luigi the name of the game is spacing him out, running away, making him approach. Against Mega Man though that's a recipe for disaster. In that matchup you need to stay in down tilt range because your down tilt defeats pellets at that range. There's just a ton of matchup knowledge that needs to be labbed out further and played in tournaments, and for the most part I think I'll leave that up to the @!Blue! 's, @MewSquared 's, and Rich Browns of the world.

 

[Megamang]

The nerf was bad because players- even veterans, overeacted to this easy yet effective punish game and complained. Yet they forget about the times in brawl where zero to death jab locks existed, chain grabs deemed characters all the more viable, and offense play was seriously dampaned by other various mechanics.

Just wanted to point out that I both remember the stupid brawl stuff like that, and don't miss it all. Im sure im not alone.

Just because we put up with stupid **** in the past, doesn't mean we should, or that we should want to.


@KumaOso

Everyone does have a backwards dash in the form of backwards perfect pivoting. Keeps you facing the same way and everything.

Backwards walk is reserved for the crawlers, which is strange but useful for those characters.

 

[PK Gaming]

Oh yay, as if Bowser Jr. wasn't underrated enough anyway. It's people like him that makes me add that sentence in my signature.

As for the question, Vicegrip exists.

Your signature is garbage

I mean it, you're doing yourself a disservice by repping it

 

[Deathcarter]

The amount of time top players spend playing Smash in tournaments is a very miniscule percentage of their overall playtime when you add friendlies/online/practice/goofing off into the mix so its not as if Tweek dropping just for tournament use this this sort of agonizing difficult decision; he can play his favorite low tier almost whenever he wants. While being able to see your favorite characters played at a high level may be a big draw for fighting game spectators, the simple reality is that in tournaments the characters are at the end of the day just tools for the players and no one likes being saddled with an inadequate tool.

 

[TheGlove]

Tampa Never Sleeps 6 Smash 4 Singles Results

1. Mew2king
2. Seibrik (Used and for one game each during Grand finals set 2, lost both)
3. MVD
4. ONI Day
5. Dj Jack
5. Nick Riddle ( and for one game each against M2K, lost both)
7. Myran
7. Prince Ramen

Pretty diverse character spread. Day continues the trend of Lucario's doing well, defeating Myran, Heero/Static Manny, and Dj Jack. An Olimar and Palutena in top 8 is a sight for sore eyes.

M2k really showed his progress as a player here, defeating Day, Nick Riddle, MVD, and resetting the Bracket before taking it 6-0 vs Seibrik in Grands. He also eliminated Heero from the bracket pretty convincingly, a far departure from their last set when M2K was still using


In other Lucario News, https://twitter.com/TweekSsb/status/701665020514537472

Apparently Tweek was having some fun with Lucario, maybe he will be picking him up.

How effective do you guys feel playing Lucario and Cloud would be from a matchup perspective?

 

[Y2Kay]

Wait......are Luigi Mains complaining about the nerfs STILL.

after nearly half a year?

The Greninja main in me is infuriated.

I just made a "better nerf greninja" joke......KILL ME.