Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheBeggingBard ~~JoMo~~]

If you would help me out with this tier list instead of bashing it constantly that would be great.
Also I don't do it by 1, 2, 3... If you look at the http://play.pokemonshowdown.com/teambuilder teambuilder of this website the poke's are divided up into sections not numbers. I can also edit this tier list if you would like just tell me where the optimal place to move certain people.
For example should I move Char to NU?

Edit: Sorry if I sound passive aggressive. I don't mean to. <3 you all

 

[PK Gaming]

Alright boys and girls here's my try at a v1.1 tier list using Smogon tier rankings:

OU:

BL1:

UU:

BL2:

RU:

BL3:

NU:

(Please note that this is my 1st try at one and from my views)
BL= Black List
Bl means that the characters could easily move up or down due to usage by the competitive communities
Give me any suggestions where to move some of the characters.

No, no, no.

You are fundamentally missing the point here. Smogon tiers Pokemon strictly based on usage. BL, BL2 and BL3 are banlists, so it is counterproductive to place characters in them.

Disregarding the fact that your rankings are arbitrary and completely off base, Smogon already uses a traditional tiering system to measure Pokemon viability.

 

[C0rvus]

Don't worry about your tone too much, TheBeggingBard ~~JoMo~~ , passive aggressive is this thread's primary language, especially in tier list discussion. Just know that generally, posting a tier list requires an explanation of some sort, one beyond "I made this list because we don't have a consensus for the current patch." Especially if you aren't a well-known poster or top player, there is very little reason for anyone to care about your tier list by default.

I like the idea of a Smogon-style list, but theirs begins with strictly usage-based data, and then banning individual Pokemon to higher tiers comes in the form of suspect tests. This works a bit better with Pokemon, since it's a team-based format, and Smogon's own tier system plays into their ladder, and it's all a self contained metagame. Perhaps we could adopt a similar model if we were concerned with running more low tier brackets (which would be super cool btw), but I think all Smash can draw from Smogon's tiering is the 5 level system.

Anyway, to not turn the conversation towards potentially red topics, I wanted to perhaps talk about Rosalina. I don't want to say she's fallen from grace, but she's been in a lull lately. Dabuz says she isn't solo viable, and she does lose to Cloud and Meta Knight, and she has a bunch of even-ish matchups (Mega Man, Falcon, Yoshi?) Is she even considered a potential top 3 character? I just think it's crazy how she hasn't been nerfed in so long, and those around her have, but she's arguably worse off than she was. What happened?

 

[TheBeggingBard ~~JoMo~~]

Thank you C0rvus . I also would like to point out that I did not do it off usage stats more how well each of the characters do. OU UU and such are just a format to base a list off of.

Although I agree that BL is not the best name for characters in limbo. Possibly call it L1, L2, and L3? This is more of a rough draft as I prefer not to do grades like the (outdated) tier list on the 1st page of this thread. Again I had put the characters in no particular order when putting them in their subsections.

Once again offer ways of improving this tier list instead of bashing it to oblivion.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'll take a crack at it.

OU:

BL1:

I personally don't think this is "wrong", except for Pikachu being in the top 12. This doesn't generally seem to be agreed upon, and Pika's long-term results don't really reflect the idea, neither do his matchups nor his toolkit.

UU:

Falco's placement is pretty nonsense. His mobility is trashy, his projectile is bad, and his recovery is mediocre-to-bad, which all collectively mitigate what good things he does has (frame 1 reflector, good up smash, quick and strong back air, etc.) He also lacks much of anything in terms of results, with Anragon getting 2nd at a semi-noteworthy Euro tournament being the character's biggest accomplishment since the game came out.

He belongs in the bottom 10 if anything, imo, but there could be arguments against that since he DOES have good moves.

BL2:

Since you stated that BL could be merged with the above, I personally don't see much wrong with this. I think Lucas and Marth are placed too optimistically, but that's about it.

RU:

This is where it's most messy. Bowser, Lucina, Robin, Samus, and maybe Olimar are the only characters I think "belong" in this section.

Charizard is distantly too high compared to his awful results and lack of tools that other heavies have while carrying all of the disadvantages, Dark Pit belongs next to Pit, R.O.B belongs in BL2 or UU judging by his tools/projectile game/frame data and the outstanding regional results he carries, Toon Link has way too much good stuff comparable with BL2 or UU to be placed this low, Greninja still belongs higher than this even though he's probably not as good as people want him to be, and so on.

BL3:

Whoa, Ganon. You're gonna hurt yourself being up that high.

I don't really disagree with this outside of Ganondorf's placement. Ganondorf will always have people dedicated to the cause because he's a liked character in spite of how disadvantaged he is.

NU:

Palu, Mac, and Doc probably belong higher.

 

[FullMoon]

No, no, no.

You are fundamentally missing the point here. Smogon tiers Pokemon strictly based on usage. BL, BL2 and BL3 are banlists, so it is counterproductive to place characters in them.

Disregarding the fact that your rankings are arbitrary and completely off base, Smogon already uses a traditional tiering system to measure Pokemon viability.

Unrelated to Smash but never did I think I would see the day where Clefable is the best Pokémon in OU.

More on topic now, what are the general thoughts on now that he seems to have mostly disappeared from the meta? I don't think I've seen significant Villager results in a while but then again I'm not the most attentive of people.

 

[DE235]

zero and esam have posted the first parts of their teir list.

 

[ARISTOS]

Unrelated to Smash but never did I think I would see the day where Clefable is the best Pokémon in OU.

More on topic now, what are the general thoughts on now that he seems to have mostly disappeared from the meta? I don't think I've seen significant Villager results in a while but then again I'm not the most attentive of people.

Fairy type too stronk

Villager has always had rather middling results, but because Ranai existed we had to always have that in the back of our head. If Ranai is focusing more on SFV than Smash he likely won't show up as much.

IMO, after he's still probably the strongest zoner in the game. Having nerfed has likely done wonders for him and I don't think he ever really had a bad MU.

might be a problem though

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

https://youtu.be/mliTLoV1Hug
Zero's 1.1.6 tier list: top tiers
This ones a doozy
Kinda goes against this threads thinking

11.
10.
9.
8.
7.
6.
5.
4.
3.
2.
1.

 

[Jaxas]

Well in light of ZeRo's new list, the biggest question I have is...

What the heck has Corrin done to get the 10 slot on his list? Have I just missed a ton of Corrin results (or some crazy tech) or something?

 

[Emblem Lord]

https://youtu.be/mliTLoV1Hug
Zero's 1.1.6 tier list: top tiers
This ones a doozy
Kinda goes against this threads thinking

11.
10.
9.
8.
7.
6.
5.
4.
3.
2.
1.

Dammit

 

[LancerStaff]

Well in light of ZeRo's new list, the biggest question I have is...

What the heck has Corrin done to get the 10 slot on his list? Have I just missed a ton of Corrin results (or some crazy tech) or something?

Thinking the same thing. Like, most people struggled to put him more then two spots above Pit before... Now most of the time I'm seeing people compare him to Marth more then anything.

 

[TheBeggingBard ~~JoMo~~]

Ladies and gentlemen I am back with my v1.1.2 Tierlist for Smash 4 (Please note that this is not based off of usage but on results)

OU |

L1 |

UU |

L2 |

RU |

L3 |

NU |

Alright thoughts on this one?

Also thanks to Das Koopa for the help and reformatting

(L now means Limbo)

 

[Tizio Random]

I mean, it's not the worst tier list ever by any means but at 10 above of all things and at seventh place is reeeaaally a stretch of imagination.
The rest, eh, opinions are all over the place now and I'm not surprised at all about as second best.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ugh

Will somebody please sit the top level players down, explain to them that potential doesn't belong on tier lists because its unmeasurable + doesn't reflect the current meta game, and then shove Corrin's lackluster results in their face already?

 

[teddystalin]

More on topic now, what are the general thoughts on now that he seems to have mostly disappeared from the meta? I don't think I've seen significant Villager results in a while but then again I'm not the most attentive of people.

Similarly to Pikachu, Villager's top-level potential is judged entirely by the performance of one player and, as that player's performances become inconsistent and infrequent, everyone will gradually forget any strong results in the past. Villager's position in the meta would have gotten stronger with the rise of Diddy and the fall of Sheik, but it's the introduction of Cloud as a popular and easy-to-pocket character that's most standing between him and his past successes. Before it wasn't an unreasonable claim to say that he had no -2 matchups (maybe Rosa?), but losing hard to a character that common hurts. He also doesn't win any top tier MUs decisively except maybe Ryu (who's never going to be hugely popular) and his archetype of "low mobility zoner" is never going to draw many players to him.

That being said, Villager's getting some notable results with relatively new faces in Ranai's absence. While players like MJG and SS have been very inconsistent, Kept (wins over Abadango*, Shu, and Kie) and Aarvark (wins over Tyrant and Rich Brown*) are both on the rise. The character is due for a fall whenever the next tier list hits, but it shouldn't be too steep - he'll likely remain top 20 based on his historical prowess and occasional flashes of relevance.

*=I have next to no experience in the Mewtwo MU, but why is he so often considered an answer to Villager? Recent results have not been skewed in Mewtwo's favor. It seems that Villager is at home right outside of M2's effective range - looking even at worst.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

You thought one top players tier list was insane? Well check out another #esamopinion by ESAM! He does the bottom tiers in this video
https://youtu.be/9SgM0ZwyJTM
I like the way how he formatted the tiers, worst being named "bottom of the barrel", then above that is named "pretty awful" and above that is named "bad but scary"

His formatting may be decent, but his placings are a whole different story. I doubt I'll take this seriously

 

[BunbUn129]

Ryu being 1st comes from the belief that he is the best character when played optimally, that much is obvious. It's stupid because you could make the same argument for any top-tier--hell, maybe any character. You can make a case for Cloud, Sheik, and Diddy being the best when fully optimized and it'd be just as believable. A tier list has to take into account human factor and error, with a character's ability to endure and control such factors affecting their placement.

Also I have a feeling another patch is gonna drop before ZeRo finishes this tier list lol

 

[PK Gaming]

Well in light of ZeRo's new list, the biggest question I have is...

What the heck has Corrin done to get the 10 slot on his list? Have I just missed a ton of Corrin results (or some crazy tech) or something?

He literally says it's not based on results, but his personal opinion in the first 10 seconds of the video.

That said, I disagree. Top 10 is way too high for Corrin.

 

[blackghost]

zero losts was questionable as the corrin and diddy placement confused me. he keeps using the term best nuetral for like 4 characters. these are just his opinions but it looks like he is trying to undersell his mains hard and no one thinks corrin is definate top 10. corrin isnt better than new bayo.
i dont have a problem with his selection of characters but the order really doesnt seem good to me

 

[Amadeus9]

See guys, this wasnt a tier list. It was a list of fighters Zero wants nerfed most.

 

[outfoxd]

Dammit

You've been discovered. Quick, send the hit squad before he ruins the plans

 

[MistressRemilia]

First off, in Smogon/Competitive Pokemon tiers, BL means borderline, simple as that. Its a tier where pokemons that are too strong for X Tier are, given that they are too weak for Y Tier and get usage below 3.4% or so, in this special " tier " , that isn't really a tier since BL Pokemons don't have their own tier, they're usually niche pokemons in the Y Tier ( or sometimes pretty good, but since usage isn't based off Smogtours players only, some good pokemons may end up here ).

We can now talk about tier list, since it seems to be a subject of choice right now:
I understand ZeRo's point about Ryu's strengths: There's no denying that Ryu is absurd in some ways, but that's also part of why i'm not that faithful about him being that good of a character: Ryu is also a character with average mobility & a lack of answer to zoning, which is a real problem. I feel that, if people played the matchup right, which is kind of lame but it has to be done, Ryu won't be able to reach that far, probably not winning a supermajor anytime soon.

In some way, he reminds me of Ness. It's very interesting here because, the case of Ness is that his theory is kind of poor & suggests a lower placement in viability, but when you come to think of it, not a lot of players can actually accomplish the sheer fact of playing the Ness matchup " right " . FOW's sets vs Sheiks exemplifies this, most notably FOW vs ZeRo at PAX, where i'd say ZeRo did a good job at playing the Ness matchup in a good way, at least from what i remember of the set.

I do agree with his Sonic opinion tho, even if the placing is kind of too high ( i'm more into results ). I do think that Sonic can grow into even more of a plague than he is right now, in the current metagame. It has been showcased by Wrath, and sometimes by Komorikiri in the matchups that would advice such a playstyle more than ever ( See: Regi vs Komo in Crews of G3 )

 

[Hero_2_All]

see's Corrin at 10th on the tier lists due to "potential"* Pulls up smashboards 4BR tier list page* Grabs popcorn*..... Dis gonna be good.

 

[Vermanubis]

I played Speclar recently, I seemed to be the only Ganon who did well against him (won majority).

He concluded that I played best against him as compared to Vermanubis and others, and he agreed with me stating that the MU is 55:45 Ganon's favor (as long as the Ganon plays appropriately).

I'm sure you did well, but given Spec's own words, I'm confused as to what to think. Kosk and I went above even with his Puff as well, and the reason I'm confused is because, to paraphrase from a discord discussion with him, he said that he'd like to convince you of the MU ratio, but the "connection won't allow for it," and that you both went even.

He did say you play the MU the best of us, but what you've said here might stretch that a bit.

 

[L9999]

https://youtu.be/mliTLoV1Hug
Zero's 1.1.6 tier list: top tiers
This ones a doozy
Kinda goes against this threads thinking

11.
10.
9.
8.
7.
6.
5.
4.
3.
2.
1.

The hell is this? Is ZeRo butthurt because Sheik/Diddy are not broken anymore and doesn't see what they are doing? He is underselling Mario's adaptability and crazy buttons to much. Kamui is totally not top 10.

On another note, ESAM's bottom tier video is complete garbage.
ESAM knows NOTHING about DHD. If DHD was truly bottom of the barrel how are there THREE freaking DHD players that can top 8/16 as they please? And DandyPenguin.
Another sheep that says Lucina is garbage just because she is "inferior" to Marth. Really, just because Marth. "If Marth didn't exist, I would put her higher" Yeah, what about ranking her on her own merits? "Marth has more range" Yes, by 0.1% pixels.
If she was so bad how did RIN got top 32 at the most stacked tournament in history? She is obscure, but not garbage...
"She has Down-Throw followups now" Lost me there.

 

[|RK|]

I agree on Sonic as well. It's funny - the shift towards a more aggressive, "fun," style was used as an example of optimal play becoming more aggressive. But now we're learning that at least with Sonic, that is exactly the opposite.

The hell is this? Is ZeRo butthurt because Sheik/Diddy are not broken anymore and doesn't see what they are doing? He is underselling Mario's adaptability and crazy buttons to much. Kamui is totally not top 10.

No Diddy main thinks he's super-high, though. Sheik... thoughts around her vary. And Mario is constantly seen as lower top tier. I wouldn't jump to attacking ZeRo for those.

Corrin does baffle me, though.

 

[PK Gaming]

eSAM's tier list is even more egregious than ZeRo's.

From the bottom up we have characters like Wii Fit, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Doctor Mario, Lucina and Bowser Jr. who have no place being that low. Then there's the inconsistent and outright wrong information he throws out, saying things like Falco's Phantasm is slower than Fox's despite being objectively faster, or that Falco's down tilt is unsafe.

It's largely nonsensical

 

[BunbUn129]

These tier lists are turning this thread into a circus. We had to get not one, but two of them.

I like it.

 

[Illuminose]

I made a chart like 2 pages ago but here have some ratios for matchups ItsRainingGravy

55-45~60-40
50-50
50-50~55-45
55-45
50-50
40-60
60-40~65-35
50-50
50-50
45-55
55-45
55-45
50-50~55-45
50-50
55-45
50-50
Relevant other: 45-55

For anyone who says it's too optimistic? Try accurate and maybe you'll get an idea why people think Pikachu is KINDA good. He would easily be top 5 if we didn't account results in our tier lists.

 

[Yonder]

Think Zero ever looks at the madness he caused with his list and just laughs ? Or maybe it's better he doesn't explain his list. We all know what happened last time he posted here...oh boy.

Ill join the mass in saying that Corrin is too high, Mario is too low, Sonic is too high, Diddy is too low, and let Ryu win a major first before throwing him up as best.

Better yet, can we ban tier list posts until after EVO? That should give us an idea on the true competitors.

 

[xIvan321]

Would like an explanation.
Both results and theory say that MM gets slapped by Pikachu.

I'd agree with either a (0) or a single (-) and I have played with a lot of different Pikachu players.

That would be for a few reasons people who play Pikachu sorta get incorrect. There definitely isn't good results, but to be fair the representation from either side is definitely lacking in the numbers and I think there are a lot more skilled Pikachu players than skilled Mega Man players.

Like Pikachu players that imply that QA is a reliable way to beat pellets which isn't true either. Its more of a return to neutral mix up and we have tools at our disposal that beats it and camping. Its just some misinformation is all over the place that oversimplifies this MU, and I do think the MU isn't as bad due to the struggle to kill on either side due to counter play.

If you throw Mega Man off stage, he has sorta a strange recovery I'd compare to Ryu who won't always die to an edge guard, but keeps returning for free damage, not to mention strange mechanic's Mega Man players will gladly take advantage of like phantom footstools (since you know, Pikachu has to really be there to seal the stocks), coupled with the natural abilities Mega Man has in the air all make it difficult for Pikachu to finally the kill off stage, however he is definitely damage meat off stage for this MU. Both characters can edge guard each other.

However, the counter pick stages are a little more stronger on the Pikachu side, so the issue would be exactly that if Mega Man is at a disadvantage. I can identify Pikachu's stronger picks are on Smashville, Dreamland, and Lylat. It becomes a game of choose your poison from there since you know your opponent will pick one of these. (personally, I'd take Smashville, but that's just me.) Also the stages Mega Man wants in the MU is both Town & City and Battlefield.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

1.
2.
3.

We 3rd Party now.

That aside, I find these placements a bit...questionable. For most of the reasons people have already mentioned.

Although I like , I don't think that they are strong enough to hang with the top crowd. They have a good MU against , sure, but so do a lot of other lower characters like and . And Marth in particular now seems like he has more than a handful of good matchups against other high/top tier characters. So I can easily see Marth rising in the future.

Corrin, on the other hand, seems a lot like . Great aerials and amazing specials (well just PKT), but is ultimately hindered by mobility. I do think that Corrin is better than Ness though, because although Ness has much better aerial mobility, Corrin trumps him by having better range and ground moves (barring Ness's Bthrow). Furthermore, I can see Corrin having a better MU spread than Ness overall, especially against higher tiered characters.


is similar, but unlike Corrin/Ness, he can Satsui No Hado your *** at early percents with very reliable KO confirms. And other than aerial deceleration, his mobility specs are a bit better to the point where they are passable. Is it enough for him to be #1? I highly doubt it. But I do think that he is better than some people give him credit for. Most importantly, I think that he actually has a pretty solid MU spread. It's not amazing like Cloud's is, but it certainly by no means bad. I am very interested to see where he ends up on the tier list in the future.

 

[TDK]

This thread has a really well-defined top tier:



After that though, discussion about characters seems to completely drop off. I'm thinking the high tiers are:



Is this correct? There's literally no discussion about anyone outside of the top 11 these days. I'd also say the high-mid tiers are:

( / )

I really have no justification for most of these, this is just a shot in the dark. Tell me if I'm wrong, please.

 

[HeavyLobster]

He literally says it's not based on results, but his personal opinion in the first 10 seconds of the video.

That said, I disagree. Top 10 is way too high for Corrin.

Ignoring results, especially results for high/top tiers 1.5 years into the game is really stupid. Obviously patches/DLC complicate things, but you at least need to somewhat account for results to have a useful tier list.

 

[Patriarachnid]

This thread has a really well-defined top tier:

I've seen a lot of people saying Mega Man is top tier recently. Could somebody explain why that is, please? Not trying to be passive-aggressive or anything; I had just thought the general consensus was that he was roughly top of bottom tier. What about him makes him top tier?

 

[wedl!!]

Dammit

Looks like Zero's next to die.

 

[|RK|]

Ignoring results, especially results for high/top tiers 1.5 years into the game is really stupid. Obviously patches/DLC complicate things, but you at least need to somewhat account for results to have a useful tier list.

In this thread, yes. But he's just going off of prediction/opinion because he wants to. For example, if I'm to go off of results, I might put Kirby a little lower this time around (his good top tier matchups are now less relevant, while poor ones are more relevant... hell, optimal Sonic might get even worse). But if I want to talk about what I think in terms of potential, I have a few ideas as to how his game might progress. So I may leave him as is or even put him in mid tier. It's not going to be as relevant as a regular tier list, but sometimes it's fun to list out how you can see the meta developing. Even if you end up wrong.

 

[PK Gaming]

Ignoring results, especially results for high/top tiers 1.5 years into the game is really stupid. Obviously patches/DLC complicate things, but you at least need to somewhat account for results to have a useful tier list.

I agree, but I was just explaining ZeRo's method

I don't like how he set up this tier list; it's a step down from his previous one

 

[BunbUn129]

What a coincidence that ZeRo and ESAM both start making tier lists at the same time. Heck, ZeRo is starting at the top and ESAM at the bottom.

They shall slowly work their way towards one another, before meeting in the middle of the mid tier, at which point they shall merge their halves of the list, resulting in the most absurd tier list in Smash 4's history.

Don't ask me why, if I was ZeRo and ESAM was my friend, I'd do it just for ****s and giggles.