Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

This thread has a really well-defined top tier:



After that though, discussion about characters seems to completely drop off. I'm thinking the high tiers are:



Is this correct? There's literally no discussion about anyone outside of the top 11 these days. I'd also say the high-mid tiers are:

( / )

I really have no justification for most of these, this is just a shot in the dark. Tell me if I'm wrong, please.

Probably a little early to say Megaman's a top tier, don't you think? Everything outside of top tier is highly subjective though, especially Marth and Bayo. And probably DK.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Aaah just in time for the thread bashing of top players for their opinions , love this time of the year.

Any big tourneys this weekend?

 

[|RK|]

Aaah just in time for the thread bashing of top players for their opinions , love this time of the year.

Any big tourneys this weekend?

2GG Mexico Saga, I think. ZeRo will be in attendance.

 

[PK Gaming]

Aaah just in time for the thread bashing of top players for their opinions , love this time of the year.

Criticizing someone's opinion = / = bashing them, especially if you back up your criticism with cogent arguments (which people on the last page have been doing)

You really shouldn't conflate the two.

 

[Illusion.]

Any big tourneys this weekend?

TGC 8, Midwest Mayhem 3, and, as someone else already said, 2GGT: Mexico Saga.

 

[Nu~]

This thread has a really well-defined top tier:

Although mega man has received quite a few good results recently, it does not make him a top tier already

 

[Appledees]

I don't deny that Megaman is actually a solid character but I still not seeing him as a top tier threat so far. I feel like the results he's gotten so far while really solid has kinda inflated his tier position with some people in here.

Kinda reminds me of Villager with the results from Ranai earlier on which probably will happen to Megaman at some point I don't know.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Aaah just in time for the thread bashing of top players for their opinions , love this time of the year.

Oh please, you think this is bad?

I already got my first uh... interesting comment for explaining how Corrin isn't that good in the comments section of Zero's video, lol

MegaMan I highly doubt is top tier. High tier? Maybe. If results keep the current trend.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Strange how everyone's doing everything in their power to devalue Megaman's work in recent weeks, while Wrath's third place showing and Komokiri's Cloud-aided tepid results still give Sonic a free pass.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Sonic has always been kinda all over the place. Hardly a free pass just... same old, same old.

 

[Nobie]

It's always fascinating to see how far characters have traveled across the tier list in people's minds especially if they've barely been touched by patches.

Mid Tier -> High Tier -> Mid Tier -> Low Tier -> Mid Tier -> Top Tier???
Top Tier -> Low Tier -> Mid Tier???
High Tier -> Top Tier -> High Tier -> Top Tier???

I think this says a lot about how tricky patches can be. You have whole characters that move up and down without anything really happening to them. Balance is tough!

I've also been thinking about something else recently:

"The US is the best environment to develop high tiers, while Japan is the best environment to develop low tiers."

In the US, the best players tend to gravitate towards what they perceive as the strongest characters, so we get to see them clash over and over, and get a really good idea of their interactions. In Japan, due to a variety of reasons the character diversity to average skill level ratio is much more even, and so we get to see how many more matchups play out at a high level, and everyone gets to learn from them. I think this is why Japan is where we see Duck Hunts doing so well, and why Kamemushi has been so consistent.

 

[TurboLink]

Oh please, you think this is bad?

I already got my first uh... interesting comment for explaining how Corrin isn't that good in the comments section of Zero's video, lol

MegaMan I highly doubt is top tier. High tier? Maybe. If results keep the current trend.

Is this your comment? And I don't know about Corrin, he's got some pretty good stuff.

Corrin is not that good. They aren't top tier, or even high tier. Potential has no place on tier lists outside of maybe a tiebreaker between two characters. Potential is both not measurable and most importantly not something in the current metagame. Potential is guessing the future. Tier lists are snapshots of the current metagame. Future =/= current, thus potential not belonging on tier lists. Look at Corrin's results. Carefully. Das Koopa on smashboards has been doing a good job of tracking major tournament results. Corrin's solo results? Borderline non-existant. Pops up a bit in Japan, but outside of Japan? Corrin has two noticeable people trying to solo use them: Cosmos (who doesn't travel and their immediate area doesn't have major names there regularly) and Ryuga (who has vanished off of the face of the earth when it comes to majors ever since they dropped Ike). You know who has had better solo results than Corrin for a while now? Ike and Marth. Just to give you an idea of how borderline non-existant Corrin's solo results are. And then you look at secondary usage. Corrin picks up a bit there again... until you take out the times where Corrin is used as a secondary but the person still doesn't advance any further. And then once again Corrin's results kinda fall like a rock and is once again behind Marth in the results category. People have been claiming since Corrin was released that he has loads of potential. But in reality, he's basically fallen flat on his face since he got out of the gate. Potential is irrelevant until its actually tapped into. People have figured out the Side B, and outside of that Corrin has.... solid but not amazing moves tied to lacklustre mobility. Because of his design he has a handful of good high tier MUs, which makes him a good secondary option... but tier lists aren't about how good of a secondary you are. They're about how well you can do solo in a tournament. The less help you need the better. For the current metagame, Corrin is mostly a panic button secondary. That is not top 10 material. Nor is that high tier material. That is mid tier. --- Ryu is being overhyped by quite a bit as well, but they're only misplaced by 10 spots at absolutely max and has Trela doing work, unlike Corrin is who easily misplaced by 15-20 spots with nobody doing work with him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Is this your comment?

Bingo

 

[Jamurai]

Big Netherlands tournament: AVALON is tomorrow.

Stream
Smashboards thread
Website

Not sure who's going from there, but I know some UK players are travelling for it including @HoSmash4 and Khanage. Likely Netherlands players include S1 aka best Ness EU (imo), and Badr who won the UK national Albion recently with pre-patch Bayo, I think he's stuck with her post patch but he also plays Diddy which we may well see more of.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

It's always fascinating to see how far characters have traveled across the tier list in people's minds especially if they've barely been touched by patches.

Mid Tier -> High Tier -> Mid Tier -> Low Tier -> Mid Tier -> Top Tier???
Top Tier -> Low Tier -> Mid Tier???
High Tier -> Top Tier -> High Tier -> Top Tier???

I think this says a lot about how tricky patches can be. You have whole characters that move up and down without anything really happening to them. Balance is tough!

I've also been thinking about something else recently:

"The US is the best environment to develop high tiers, while Japan is the best environment to develop low tiers."

In the US, the best players tend to gravitate towards what they perceive as the strongest characters, so we get to see them clash over and over, and get a really good idea of their interactions. In Japan, due to a variety of reasons the character diversity to average skill level ratio is much more even, and so we get to see how many more matchups play out at a high level, and everyone gets to learn from them. I think this is why Japan is where we see Duck Hunts doing so well, and why Kamemushi has been so consistent.

Heh, good point. I guess you can say this for shulk as well in a way. Strangely, shulk isnt developed in japan as much, and its more in canada and socal where he is doing decent. While he got buffs, they were very minor and didnt do much to improve his status in the metagame

High tier > Low tier > Bottom tier> Maybe climbing back up to mid tier?
We will just wait and see

 

[Yikarur]

At Avalon the notable germans are Longouw wusi Yikarur and Eddy

 

[Radical Larry]

Although mega man has received quite a few good results recently, it does not make him a top tier already

Kind of like saying due to Link's good results recently, that he's top tier.

Mega Man and Link are likely in the same middle tier together, possibly not even that far apart from each other. Two pretty decent characters with good projectile games, kind of bad CQC, powerful attacks, great setups and well, each other kind of go hand in hand. Really, when I think about it, the two can be kind of one and the same, except with highly different playstyles and mobility, as well as slightly different difficulty spikes.

Let's be realistic here, though, the two probably belong near the same spot in the tier list, tied together. That's how I believe they'll end up.

 

[Hero_2_All]

There is so much salt in this thread atm. Lets please be somewhat more courteous to his opinions, and try to look at it from his reasoning before completely disregarding his opinions. Now we may not agree with ZeRo, but this is obviously his opinion of the characters under their max potential. Obviously he has put out a list on who he thinks are the best characters when played at such a potential. Its all over his thoughts on the placings, and its obvious that this is only loosely based off current results. Ie Ryu and Corrin, picks are potential. They obviously don't have the current results of their placing, but ZeRo believes when their metas grow they will. While mario and diddy on the other hand are lower due to predicted future stagnation. Results are good, don't get me wrong, but ZeRo looks to be basing this list on character potential > results, and he states it can pan out any which way. The way ZeRo seems to see it, is that Corrin / Ryu do well, but don't have a well developed meta and rep (which is both true). So with that logic they should only go up if they keep gaining new tricks. Their placing looks to be how high he believes their meta will pan out to be.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't deny that Megaman is actually a solid character but I still not seeing him as a top tier threat so far. I feel like the results he's gotten so far while really solid has kinda inflated his tier position with some people in here.

Kinda reminds me of Villager with the results from Ranai earlier on which probably will happen to Megaman at some point I don't know.

Mega Man is a good anti-meta char with good placings, but he's really still high-mid and nothing more.

 

[L9999]

Kind of like saying due to Link's good results recently, that he's top tier.

Mega Man and Link are likely in the same middle tier together, possibly not even that far apart from each other. Two pretty decent characters with good projectile games, kind of bad CQC, powerful attacks, great setups and well, each other kind of go hand in hand. Really, when I think about it, the two can be kind of one and the same, except with highly different playstyles and mobility, as well as slightly different difficulty spikes.

Let's be realistic here, though, the two probably belong near the same spot in the tier list, tied together. That's how I believe they'll end up.

Megaman's results are much better than Link's, his recovery is better, his edgeguarding is better, his projectiles are better, and his MU spread is better too.

 

[G. Stache]

I might be wrong, but I feel as if some people think that "well, we haven't seen what Corrin (or any other character that has "potential") can do yet. We should wait before dropping Corrin from high tier. The potential is definitely there". I don't think that's a great way of thinking of viability. Tier lists are supposed to show the viability of how the character is doing now. Not in the future when all that "potential" may or may not be unlocked. That's theorycrafting for the future. Does Corrin have room to grow and rise higher on the tier list? Certainly. He has a lot of the traits that make for a good character (probably not top tier material, though). Going back to my original point; I think most of us get the general idea of what I'm about to say, but its still important: your character doesn't get to be high/top until proven to be lower. Your character gets to be low or mid (maybe even bottom) tier until your character has proof that it can compete consistently well at higher levels of play. Not trying to disrespect or send hate to Zero in any way: But if he goes by the potential he sees in characters, then that's basically just Zero valuing his own opinion over facts. All power to him with the rest of his tier list, though.

 

[Wintermelon43]

...HOW IN THE WORLD IS THAT SALT??? SAYING THAT A CHARACTER CAN BE BETTER THAN WHAT SOME PEOPLE THINK? I don't understand that at all lmao. Losing to the best TL once (even though I beat him 3-1 the next time we played) = TL PROBLEM CONFIRMED

Because Link has proven himself to be easily bottom 10 in theory and matchup spread; His results are 30-35ish so he's either at the very top of bottom 10 or bottom 15, but there is absolutatly no way to justify him above bottom 15, let alone 30th because of his terrible theory and matchup spread. As for the Toon Link thing, I say this because of the infamous Hyuga match at genesis and getting pretty close to losing to 3xa or whatever his name is at Fow saga. Although as I said, only slight due to your other match aganist Hyuga (And winning) and beating 3xa a good amount game 3

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The hell is this? Is ZeRo butthurt because Sheik/Diddy are not broken anymore and doesn't see what they are doing? He is underselling Mario's adaptability and crazy buttons to much. Kamui is totally not top 10.

On another note, ESAM's bottom tier video is complete garbage.
ESAM knows NOTHING about DHD. If DHD was truly bottom of the barrel how are there THREE freaking DHD players that can top 8/16 as they please? And DandyPenguin.
Another sheep that says Lucina is garbage just because she is "inferior" to Marth. Really, just because Marth. "If Marth didn't exist, I would put her higher" Yeah, what about ranking her on her own merits? "Marth has more range" Yes, by 0.1% pixels.
If she was so bad how did RIN got top 32 at the most stacked tournament in history? She is obscure, but not garbage...
"She has Down-Throw followups now" Lost me there.

Playing devil's advocate, I can see the reasoning for Lucina being bottom tier if one takes the view that as an inferior Marth, there is literally no reason to use her whatsoever. I'm not sure I agree with that logic myself, but it's not completely unreasonable. His statement on her being placed higher if Marth didn't exist would seem to support the idea that this is how he views tiers in general, namely that low tier characters are ones that have less reason to be used because someone else does what they do better.

From that view, does his list make more or less sense?

It's always fascinating to see how far characters have traveled across the tier list in people's minds especially if they've barely been touched by patches.

Mid Tier -> High Tier -> Mid Tier -> Low Tier -> Mid Tier -> Top Tier???
Top Tier -> Low Tier -> Mid Tier???
High Tier -> Top Tier -> High Tier -> Top Tier???

I think this says a lot about how tricky patches can be. You have whole characters that move up and down without anything really happening to them. Balance is tough!

I've also been thinking about something else recently:

"The US is the best environment to develop high tiers, while Japan is the best environment to develop low tiers."

In the US, the best players tend to gravitate towards what they perceive as the strongest characters, so we get to see them clash over and over, and get a really good idea of their interactions. In Japan, due to a variety of reasons the character diversity to average skill level ratio is much more even, and so we get to see how many more matchups play out at a high level, and everyone gets to learn from them. I think this is why Japan is where we see Duck Hunts doing so well, and why Kamemushi has been so consistent.

I believe that Japanese players tend to focus on optimizing their character of choice and milking every last bit of damage they can out of a confirm. Didn't footstool combos start in Japan before they started getting attention here? (I'm thinking mostly of Greninja but there are probably others.) Whereas in the US it seems we tend to focus more on efficiency, or tweaking the effort:results ratio so that we get the best results for the least effort. This includes picking known good characters instead of being a low tier hero.

There's room for crossover between the two (such as how Abadango dropped Meta Knight like a bad habit after the ladder nerf) but in general that's the impression I get.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I might be wrong, but I feel as if some people think that "well, we haven't seen what Corrin (or any other character that has "potential") can do yet. We should wait before dropping Corrin from high tier. The potential is definitely there". I don't think that's a great way of thinking of viability. Tier lists are supposed to show the viability of how the character is doing now. Not in the future when all that "potential" may or may not be unlocked. That's theorycrafting for the future. Does Corrin have room to grow and rise higher on the tier list? Certainly. He has a lot of the traits that make for a good character (probably not top tier material, though). Going back to my original point; I think most of us get the general idea of what I'm about to say, but its still important: your character doesn't get to be high/top until proven to be lower. Your character gets to be low or mid (maybe even bottom) tier until your character has proof that it can compete consistently well at higher levels of play. Not trying to disrespect or send hate to Zero in any way: But if he goes by the potential he sees in characters, then that's basically just Zero valuing his own opinion over facts. All power to him with the rest of his tier list, though.

The competition for high tier is pretty fierce with so many characters getting good results at big tourneys. The burden of proof is on the character being proposed for high tier, not on skeptics demanding results. Leave Corrin in mid/high-mid until proven otherwise.

Because Link has proven himself to be easily bottom 10 in theory and matchup spread; His results are 30-35ish so he's either at the very top of bottom 10 or bottom 15, but there is absolutatly no way to justify him above bottom 15, let alone 30th because of his terrible theory and matchup spread. As for the Toon Link thing, I say this because of the infamous Hyuga match at genesis and getting pretty close to losing to 3xa or whatever his name is at Fow saga. Although as I said, only slight due to your other match aganist Hyuga (And winning) and beating 3xa a good amount game 3

Link has in no way been "proven" to be bottom 15 in theory. He's got some pretty darn amazing moves like Fair to work with, and a strong punish/edgeguarding game to go along with a pretty decent neutral. Of course he has clear weaknesses, but his theory isn't that of a low tier. 30-35th in results would seem to be pretty in line with his theory if you ask me.

 

[PK Gaming]

Playing devil's advocate, I can see the reasoning for Lucina being bottom tier if one takes the view that as an inferior Marth, there is literally no reason to use her whatsoever. I'm not sure I agree with that logic myself, but it's not completely unreasonable. His statement on her being placed higher if Marth didn't exist would seem to support the idea that this is how he views tiers in general, namely that low tier characters are ones that have less reason to be used because someone else does what they do better.

It's not good logic.

To put it another way, in Fire Emblem 6, there is literally no reason to use Treck over pretty much any of the Cavaliers. But he is decent (and better than many characters even) by virtue of his access to a horse.

It's the same deal with Lucina. Marth existing does not suddenly make her drop several tiers. Characters are ranked with respect to each other, not with respect to a single character.

 

[LancerStaff]

My problem with ZeRo rating Corrin so high is that his potential isn't very good. Corrin's more likely to fall over time as people learn how to deal with his tools then whatever he could possibly gain. There's a lot of simple counterplay people aren't using against him and his results are still lackluster.

 

[Ffamran]

Falco's placement is pretty nonsense. His mobility is trashy, his projectile is bad, and his recovery is mediocre-to-bad, which all collectively mitigate what good things he does has (frame 1 reflector, good up smash, quick and strong back air, etc.) He also lacks much of anything in terms of results, with Anragon getting 2nd at a semi-noteworthy Euro tournament being the character's biggest accomplishment since the game came out.

He belongs in the bottom 10 if anything, imo, but there could be arguments against that since he DOES have good moves.

Correction or clarification: Reflector is frame 1 reflect and frame 5 hit and for results, if you're talking about MARS 2016, then Anragon only got 9th with Falco and Ryu, but if you're talking about Neokan which was smaller, then he did get 2nd with only Falco under Gluttony and over... I have no idea who France's top players are.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Putting Lucina at the bottom is just lazy thinking. Duck Hunt is flat-out wrong. Don't agree with Ganondorf at the bottom either. ESAM's list is off to a very poort start.

Only real issue with Zero's so far is that Corrin is way too high. Rest is fine.

 

[Nobie]

If there's any character that would fall into a Smogon-style "Borderline" in Smash 4, it'd be Lucina.

The BL tiers are usually because a Pokemon is too good for the tier below them, but gets overshadowed by a similar character above them. Because Marth exists, people use Lucina way less.

 

[Ninety]

Kind of like saying due to Link's good results recently, that he's top tier.

Mega Man and Link are likely in the same middle tier together, possibly not even that far apart from each other. Two pretty decent characters with good projectile games, kind of bad CQC, powerful attacks, great setups and well, each other kind of go hand in hand. Really, when I think about it, the two can be kind of one and the same, except with highly different playstyles and mobility, as well as slightly different difficulty spikes.

Let's be realistic here, though, the two probably belong near the same spot in the tier list, tied together. That's how I believe they'll end up.

Did Link win a stacked Japanese major while I was sleeping?

 

[Hero_2_All]

My problem with ZeRo rating Corrin so high is that his potential isn't very good. Corrin's more likely to fall over time as people learn how to deal with his tools then whatever he could possibly gain. There's a lot of simple counterplay people aren't using against him and his results are still lackluster.

What is this simple counter play vs Corrin? I'm sure a bunch of people would like to know (I personally so I can look out for it).... Though It better not be just basic anti swordy counter play (aka try to shield all the things and get in their space).

 

[NegaNixx]

I made a chart like 2 pages ago but here have some ratios for matchups @ItsRainingGravy
50-50 (Added)
55-45~60-40
50-50
50-50~55-45
55-45
50-50
30-70 (Changed)
60-40~65-35
40-60 (Changed)
50-50
40-60
55-45
55-45
50-50~55-45
50-50
55-45
45-55 (Changed)
Relevant other: 45-55~40-60 (Changed)

For anyone who says it's too optimistic? Try accurate and maybe you'll get an idea why people think Pikachu is KINDA good. He would easily be top 5 if we didn't account results in our tier lists.

I changed a few things, I think this is more accurate, even then I only changed four things to better reflect that a MU is significant enough to be notabley losing (and a question mark on how bad GnW is) so I can't even knock it.

 

[GAROU_]

Man I wish Falco was top 15

Read this with the saltiest tiers in my eyes.


...

 

[C0rvus]

I can't be the only one who abhorred playing against top/high tier Falcos of the past. He can take a well deserved rest

And I guess Villager is just dead, like he was before Ranai came into the spotlight. That guy really embodied the character. I can't put my finger on what it was that he did so much better than other Villager mains, but his ability to match his foe's rhythm with spaced slingshots was impeccable. I wonder what's left for Villager to expand upon, and how he's going to get there with Ranai focusing on Street Fighter. I know there are other players, but I'm a bit out of the loop. Off the top of my head; MJG, Zee, Aardvark,...?

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Megaman's results are much better than Link's, his recovery is better, his edgeguarding is better, his projectiles are better, and his MU spread is better too.

I wouldn't call MMs recovery better than Links, he has no hitboxes protecting and barely goes higher than Link while having almost no vertical recovery. Link on the other hand has a ****ing sword spinning around him or a huge tether to get him back pretty reliably. He can also bomb jump without a wall which helps

 

[dakotaisgreat]

Villager isn't dead, we have seen what he can do and there is nothing stopping him from doing it again. Someone could even come along and be better at it then Ranai, hell, Ranai could just come back and improve his play.

The biggest thing holding Villager back is that everyone forgets they exist because nobody gives a **** about Villager, but he is still as solid as ever and I don't think the villager meta has run completely dry either.

 

[Aaron1997]

2ggMexico Sage is Tomorrow so I'm going to give a quick rundown on the notable players.

Spoiler: Notables

TSM ZeRo
Larry Lurr
VOID
Zinoto
Falln
K9Bruce
MRConcon
Zenyou
THE WALL
Aarvark
CLG Keitaro
Aphro
Xzax
Nicko
Hyuga
Zan
TLTC
Phoenix
JonnyWestside
VEN
Z
Draquaza
MEME
IC

 

[Y2Kay]

I believe Ranai is focusing his attention into different fighting game. I forget which one though.

 

[DDK]

There is so much salt in this thread atm. Lets please be somewhat more courteous to his opinions, and try to look at it from his reasoning before completely disregarding his opinions. Now we may not agree with ZeRo, but this is obviously his opinion of the characters under their max potential. Obviously he has put out a list on who he thinks are the best characters when played at such a potential. Its all over his thoughts on the placings, and its obvious that this is only loosely based off current results. Ie Ryu and Corrin, picks are potential. They obviously don't have the current results of their placing, but ZeRo believes when their metas grow they will. While mario and diddy on the other hand are lower due to predicted future stagnation. Results are good, don't get me wrong, but ZeRo looks to be basing this list on character potential > results, and he states it can pan out any which way. The way ZeRo seems to see it, is that Corrin / Ryu do well, but don't have a well developed meta and rep (which is both true). So with that logic they should only go up if they keep gaining new tricks. Their placing looks to be how high he believes their meta will pan out to be.

I'd also like to focus on the idea of future potential and stagnation, as I feel this was the thread ZeRo was getting at when he made his tier list video. As we know, the concept of ranking characters has proved to be difficult in Smash 4 due to numerous balance patches and inconsistencies in tournament placements (even when it comes to the top players). A character's long-term potential is therefore an interesting way of looking at them with respect to the meta's development as a whole.

That said, the thing I disagree with ZeRo the most isn't necessarily his rankings of the top 11 (since as he's stated countless times it is his opinion), but rather his definition of character potential. For example, he places Diddy at 7th, saying that the character doesn't have much room to grow and has essentially plateaued in terms of advanced tech and core playstyle. What I disagree with isn't so much his statement about Diddy's meta, but rather that he seems to believe characters with room to grow have greater long-term potential than a character with less room to grow. The issue with this statement is that it assumes for a top character to remain at the top, new tech needs to be discovered and implemented into their gameplan or else players figure them out, develop counterplay and they fall off the map. On paper, this makes sense. However, in practice it's a completely different story. Often times, it's the most obvious and predictable elements of a character's game plan that allows them to win. You'd think by now top players would stopping dying to Mario's random Up Smashes or Diddy's Dtilt to [insert killing move], but no. The reason these characters have been so effective is not because they're necessarily unpredictable, but because they have consistent or powerful options that work towards them taking stocks. Unpredictability and adaptation are both elements that can come from the player, not necessarily the character.

Going back to the concept of potential and long-term development, I agree the top characters that are already exceptional and have room to grow have high future potential in Smash 4. However, I also believe the top characters that are exceptional and have a well-developed meta/gameplan with less room to grow have an equal amount of future potential. At the end of the day, if a character with a meta that has supposedly plateaued is still able to consistently place in the top 8 and has enough high/top-level representation, then that certainly sounds like a character with high future potential in my mind.

 

[paperchao]

Because Link has proven himself to be easily bottom 10 in theory and matchup spread; His results are 30-35ish so he's either at the very top of bottom 10 or bottom 15, but there is absolutatly no way to justify him above bottom 15, let alone 30th because of his terrible theory and matchup spread. As for the Toon Link thing, I say this because of the infamous Hyuga match at genesis and getting pretty close to losing to 3xa or whatever his name is at Fow saga. Although as I said, only slight due to your other match aganist Hyuga (And winning) and beating 3xa a good amount game 3

Results are what put theory to the test, if he's getting results of a 30-35 character like you said, your theory of bottom 10 is wrong and irrelevant, and it's time to go back to the drawing board to find out why he's performing like this. You can't let your obvious hate towards link influence your opinion this badly, so please try to reevaluate link in anew unbiased way