Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

Roy has some pretty solid sour spot moves: fair, nair, bair, dtilt, jab, ftilt
If you're comfortable with pressuring with and capitalizing on them successfully (it's more difficult than it sounds due to Roy's ROCKET predisposition), then excluding some nasty match ups where their reward at tipper spacing is just vastly better, his spacing game is very potent.

Bair and Ftilt tippers are like little secrets hidden in his knock back and frame data that people aren't implementing yet.

If there's anything to say about Roy, it's that there's still always more to do with him (research/implementation/lab wise). So many nuances to take into consideration. Yes, they're limiting but it's stuff that the user controls and needs to be aware of and those constraints shape his play style into overall more efficiency and capability.
If his fair/bair were slightly stronger KO power he'd be leagues better, because he loses a lot of his vroom the higher the damage goes and he doesn't have the raw options to clinch stocks.
The extent at what the average Roy player thinks he needs would push him into steam rolling rocket powered world destroyer.

I think there are enough dedicated and imaginative Roy players at this stage to see him rise in perception a lot. If the only recordings of matches these days weren't just stream sets there would be a lot more positive information and play style ideas flowing around the place for this guy. He's requiring more "meta" (outside of the game) effort than the average character - watching clips of specific combos or tech that are prolific for most unpopular characters is not what Roy players need right now.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Rating characters based on their "hidden potential" while rating other characters based on their "potential stagnation" is such a massive contradiction and logical fallacy that it baffles me.

Character x is high because they have room to grow and develop, but character y is going to go down because they have peaked? What?

Not only are you giving character x an extremely generous prediction by actually assuming that they will grow (real talk, no one here ever mentions how absurd this is), but you're giving them the benefit of the doubt that this new strategy/tech/gameplan won't have counterplay developed even if it does catch on? All while assuming that character y will go down strictly because of predicted counterplay development?

Meta-analytical double standards of this magnitude are the kinds of things you tend to hear from low-level players or character-biased forum dwellers, and it disappoints me that we're seeing this kind of logic from our best player.

When did ZeRo say "character y is going to go down because they have peaked"?

And for the bolded, I'm not sure if I see the contradiction. To me, all that means is that the character with "hidden potential" has a higher ceiling than the character with "potential stagnation".

 

[Nu~]

Roy has some pretty solid sour spot moves: fair, nair, bair, dtilt, jab, ftilt
If you're comfortable with pressuring with and capitalizing on them successfully (it's more difficult than it sounds due to Roy's ROCKET predisposition), then excluding some nasty match ups where their reward at tipper spacing is just vastly better, his spacing game is very potent.

Bair and Ftilt tippers are like little secrets hidden in his knock back and frame data that people aren't implementing yet.

If there's anything to say about Roy, it's that there's still always more to do with him (research/implementation/lab wise). So many nuances to take into consideration. Yes, they're limiting but it's stuff that the user controls and needs to be aware of and those constraints shape his play style into overall more efficiency and capability.
If his fair/bair were slightly stronger KO power he'd be leagues better, because he loses a lot of his vroom the higher the damage goes and he doesn't have the raw options to clinch stocks.
The extent at what the average Roy player thinks he needs would push him into steam rolling rocket powered world destroyer.

I think there are enough dedicated and imaginative Roy players at this stage to see him rise in perception a lot. If the only recordings of matches these days weren't just stream sets there would be a lot more positive information and play style ideas flowing around the place for this guy. He's requiring more "meta" (outside of the game) effort than the average character - watching clips of specific combos or tech that are prolific for most unpopular characters is not what Roy players need right now.

I partially blame the "inferior falcon with a sword" and "Rushdown Marth" stigmas for his lack of development.

Most mid level Roy players don't play him correctly because they're looking for something easier and more immediate. They don't care for the theory and just want to get in there and **** **** up. I agree that in the future when people begin to step back and analyze Roy as a whole (without the influence of the common perception) that he'll start to do better.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

When did ZeRo say "character y is going to go down because they have peaked"?

And for the bolded, I'm not sure if I see the contradiction. To me, all that means is that the character with "hidden potential" has a higher ceiling than the character with "potential stagnation".

He cited that diddy's lack of room for further growth meant that he belonged lower than people perceived him to be. My point was it's just wild to assume how high a character's ceiling is before their hidden potential has time to be adapted to, whIle also claiming that another character will go down because people are supposedly going to adapt.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Roy has some pretty solid sour spot moves: fair, nair, bair, dtilt, jab, ftilt
If you're comfortable with pressuring with and capitalizing on them successfully (it's more difficult than it sounds due to Roy's ROCKET predisposition), then excluding some nasty match ups where their reward at tipper spacing is just vastly better, his spacing game is very potent.

Bair and Ftilt tippers are like little secrets hidden in his knock back and frame data that people aren't implementing yet.

If there's anything to say about Roy, it's that there's still always more to do with him (research/implementation/lab wise). So many nuances to take into consideration. Yes, they're limiting but it's stuff that the user controls and needs to be aware of and those constraints shape his play style into overall more efficiency and capability.
If his fair/bair were slightly stronger KO power he'd be leagues better, because he loses a lot of his vroom the higher the damage goes and he doesn't have the raw options to clinch stocks.
The extent at what the average Roy player thinks he needs would push him into steam rolling rocket powered world destroyer.

I think there are enough dedicated and imaginative Roy players at this stage to see him rise in perception a lot. If the only recordings of matches these days weren't just stream sets there would be a lot more positive information and play style ideas flowing around the place for this guy. He's requiring more "meta" (outside of the game) effort than the average character - watching clips of specific combos or tech that are prolific for most unpopular characters is not what Roy players need right now.

I always thought people misinterpreted Roy's sweetspot to mean he was supposed to be a rushdown character, when, imo, his sweetspot means he's supposed to be a whiff punishment character.

Like how Marth focuses on and rewards spacing, I always felt that Roy focuses on and rewards whiff punishing.

He cited that diddy's lack of room for further growth meant that he belonged lower than people perceived him to be. My point was it's just wild to assume how high a character's ceiling is before their hidden potential has time to be adapted to, whIle also claiming that another character will go down because people are supposedly going to adapt.

I'm gonna have to ask for a timestamp for that diddy comment lol

i don't think he ever said that he ranked Diddy 7th because people will adapt to the character, instead the reason why he ranked Diddy 7th is because he thinks that the 6 characters ranked above Diddy have better ceilings. I feel like you misinterpreted ZeRo's reasonings.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Anybody ever thought that certain players might be carrying certain characters?

Is this outside the realm of possibility?

Not at all. For example, some people on this thread think that Pikachu is carried by ESAM. I have also seen claims that Sheik is carried by her great representation. On the other hand, it is usually very hard to prove that a character's results are carried by players. It can sometimes get tough to find the skill disparity between top players that are playing against each other. Then, it is also difficult to determine how much the skill disparity affected the outcome of the match. There are also other external factors to account for such as matchup experience. This is why it is easier to assume that most top players pick top tiers in order to win tournaments instead of trying to figure out whether a character is getting carried by a player.

Mario over sheik and fox?

Nah

EDIT: oh and I would like to say I hate everything pertaining to players and characters carrying each other. Some characters are easier to do good with than others and players don't "carry" characters (how would someone push a character behind their potential?), they just get closer to playing more optimal, or they just play better than the other person. If some godly WFT or GnW main destroy K9bruce or destroy VoiD or something (wouldn't that just shake things up...), they could be MU inexperience, player exhaustion, or the player just playing better than their opponent. Has nothing to do with the player carrying the character beyond their potential or something.

You bring up a valid point. I also don't think that players can carry a character past their potential, but there is the possibility that a difference in skill level between players or another external difference could factor into the results of a matchup and make a character look more powerful than they actually are when compared to the rest of the cast.

By the way, how much would these results shake things up? The first three videos are from Hail Smash III, an 84 player tournament that had Leo, Hyuga, and Serge in attendance. Although I am not sure how much Flama used Mario with his Gunner, he got 5th in this tournament, and he beat the best Bowser in Mexico in a tournament set.

Holy **** it's Christmas.

Hail Smash III
Flama vs Javi
https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming/v/69209183?t=59m46s
vs Klein
https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming/v/69209183?t=01h54m07s
vs Javi
https://www.twitch.tv/hydraprogaming/v/69209183?t=02h32m35s

Also, currently searching for a VOD of @Wii Twerk Trainer 2-0'ing K9's Sheik. I heard it was streamed through Facebook instead of Twitch, so I'm not sure if there's a saved video.

 

[Djent]

https://youtu.be/VJn6tCxu-qg

I think the matchup is closer to even or our favor.
Pikachu struggles to stay in on us with the gross combination of Nair(combo breaker and QA escape button), trampoline (good OoS move against foes with bad range) and hydrant (anti juggle/safe approach tool)

It's a chore for pikachu to get in in the first place since we have so many walling hitboxes. Having bad airspeed also sucks when pacman forces you to take to the skies to get around most of his junk. Even though pikachu is small, our main combo starters (galaxian, any z drop, Nair) work just as well against him and his light weight means that Fair -> key or Bell -> whatever will kill super early.

Pikachu's saving grace is the fact that he still does a high deal of damage when he gets in and he destroy's our recovery pretty easily if we lose our jump.

I wanted to respond to this because it's well-thought out. Even so, I'm not sure I agree.

When it comes to footage, we lack a recent high-level sets between these characters. Dee is quite good, but it's hard for me to judge Keron from the match you linked (I've never heard of him before). The only other relevant set was ESAM's 2-0 over Abadango at Shockwave, and that's ancient too! Plus, I don't think Aba used all that Pac has at his disposal.

Something I noticed in the above sets is that Pika and Pac both struggle to kill each other. I think they're both in the same predicament when the other person knows what's coming. Projectile confirms are normally dangerous, but less so when you have Pac's grab and can't easily force people to stop shielding. Of course Pika can cheese recoveries, but Pac is actually pretty flexible in that department (as evidenced by Dee's ability to survive several edgeguard attempts by Keron).

Pikachu never cared as much about projectile walling as he does about large disjoints from swordies. Most Mega Men seem to hate the character, and my suspicion is that Toon Link struggles as well.* Even Sheik was (is?) more of a problem because of her f-air than needles. It could be that I'm underselling all of these characters, but Pika seems fine against most zoners and trappers.

*Shimitake did better vs. Hyuga than he should have given the skill difference between them.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

If you have to get a college degree in Royology and play him perfectly as a robot just to make him not suck then that shows me that he's a really bad character. Also, Blazer is an attack a lot more then it is a recovery move.

To the guy above who said Roy is a punish character a lot more then a rush down character, that would work a lot better if so many other characters didn't have ways to force Roy to approach.

 

[paperchao]

Roys b-reversed blazer seems decent as a landing mixup, as his high airspeed transfers over and he can use it the same way diddy uses the flip kick b-reverse thing. Roys edgeguarding is also pretty potent like marths, but to a lesser extent. His real potential comes from abusing his mobility, as he has a nifty dash dance (extended) and his wierd walk momentum could help as well. It's also worth mentioning that Roys grabs can all bait air dodges and lead to f smash, possibly a design choice to give roy more mixup from grabs. Falling up air tomahawk ed is pretty good as a mixup combo starter too. Overall roy is very unappealing to play due to how awkward he is, slowing his progression due to low player base. Those are my thoughts on what roy has to offer to possibly optimize.

 

[Locke 06]

Bair and Ftilt tippers are like little secrets hidden in his knock back and frame data that people aren't implementing yet.

BAir/Ftilt being jab lock/platform edge slip tools due to low knockback and decent recovery to lead into one another? I too can read data.

 

[Shaya]

BAir/Ftilt being jab lock/platform edge slip tools due to low knockback and decent recovery to lead into one another? I too can read data.

Why does tipper back air do everything I want every other Roy tipper to do.png.jpg

--

Roy to me is the anti-Marth though, not the opposite of Marth, just the same spiel with different dynamics.
Rush down Marth would be semi-accurate. A lot of the time Marth is better off waiting/taking it slow, while Roy wants to go in so he can get out just as fast. If that makes sense.

 

[Ffamran]

So many characters here that I want them to do well so people can shut up about their theory ()

I still have no idea where this idea of "theory" and Falco comes from. If anything, the only theory Falco has is no theory. Characters considered braindead e.g. pre-patch Diddy and Luigi or Bayonetta, Cloud, DK, Ness, customs Palutena, Sonic, customs Villager, Yoshi, etc., have more theory than Falco. Really, what the hell are you going to do with this broken character? Incomplete game plan, forced to play everyone's game plans to the point where I could argue Ganondorf forces Falco to approach despite the absurdity of it, and forced to play other game plans to try and make up for his lack of (a cohesive) one. He's bare-bones to the point where if you were talking about who uses fundamental play the most, it's Falco since he has nothing. At that point, you'd better pick characters who work fundamentals much better like Mario, Marth, or the Pits. Ganondorf works fundamentals much better than Falco does.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I still have no idea where this idea of "theory" and Falco comes from. If anything, the only theory Falco has is no theory. Characters considered braindead e.g. pre-patch Diddy and Luigi or Bayonetta, Cloud, DK, Ness, customs Palutena, Sonic, customs Villager, Yoshi, etc., have more theory than Falco. Really, what the hell are you going to do with this broken character? Incomplete game plan, forced to play everyone's game plans to the point where I could argue Ganondorf forces Falco to approach despite the absurdity of it, and forced to play other game plans to try and make up for his lack of (a cohesive) one. He's bare-bones to the point where if you were talking about who uses fundamental play the most, it's Falco since he has nothing. At that point, you'd better pick characters who work fundamentals much better like Mario, Marth, or the Pits. Ganondorf works fundamentals much better than Falco does.

All this pessimism and you still main this character. If he don't work out for you, just stop fooling with him and get someone good.

 

[SaltyKracka]

All this pessimism and you still main this character. If he don't work out for you, just stop fooling with him and get someone good.

If it were so easy to just drop low or bottom tier characters and win, people wouldn't even play them in the first place.

Maining is an oft-perverse thing.

 

[Blobface]

What kind of things should Smash 4 players in general try to implement or improve on, at any level of play?

 

[Phan7om]

And to Kirby talk, is being a counterpick character all he is good for? The only reason he show up in this lists of notables and top 16s is because he is a secondary. And most of those secondaries lose anyways.

Currently he tends to expose people who dont know how to deal with him or what to expect from him, and since people are getting more and more used to dealing with his limited tools and gimmicks his counterpick viability will become more irrelevant as time goes on.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What kind of things should Smash 4 players in general try to implement or improve on, at any level of play?

Stuff like this

http://smashboards.com/threads/roy-trap-game-primer.409740/#post-19622686

Oh, snap it's about Roy. Enjoy the read guys.

 

[FuzzyQuills]

Currently he tends to expose people who dont know how to deal with him or what to expect from him, and since people are getting more and more used to dealing with his limited tools and gimmicks his counterpick viability will become more irrelevant as time goes on.

Good point on that one, I do know however that pressuring the opponent with something (copy abilities actually work as a surprise attack sometimes!) can work with Kirby, although it depends on what good his copy ability would do him in a matchup.

What kind of things should Smash 4 players in general try to implement or improve on, at any level of play?

Depends on what you feel you need to improve on I find.

As for me, a new thing I decided trying a few days ago was switching round my shield and grab buttons, to closer approximate an N64 controller layout. This has also "forced" me to be a bit more offensive, as pressing L on a 3DS while moving the circle pad can be a bit awkward sometimes... XD

Nonetheless, I gave my gameplay a bit of a refresh by doing something as simple as switching a couple of buttons around.

If I could give an honest and unbiased answer, it's probably to properly balance your defensive and offensive play, as constantly rolling or shielding can end with you on the wrong side of a grab, all the while keeping your opponent on the edge by pressuring with combos or jabs or whatever works for you.

EDIT: Emblem Lord beat me to it... XD

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If it were so easy to just drop low or bottom tier characters and win, people wouldn't even play them in the first place.

Maining is an oft-perverse thing.

Unless they're optimistic about them and feel like they're strong characters that can do something and are characters they enjoy playing. Fframan def doesn't have that feeling of enjoyment and satisfaction with his character, so it's best if he just drops falco to a casual character and pick up some one better.

 

[Strong-Arm]

On the topic as what is said above I play Lucina as I feel like she has potential and basically 90% of the scene underplays her. People play who they like, have faith in, etc

 

[CalamitySB]

What kind of things should Smash 4 players in general try to implement or improve on, at any level of play?

Mind-games, mix-ups, picking the correct option, training my inputs so I don't miss them at a crucial time, basically anything that will transfer over to other characters since I tend to not stick to one for long. If I'm focusing on one character, I try to learn there tools and movement options, as well as combos and everything standard.

Unless they're optimistic about them and feel like they're strong characters that can do something and are characters they enjoy playing. Fframan def doesn't have that feeling of enjoyment and satisfaction with his character, so it's best if he just drops falco to a casual character and pick up some one better.

It's not our place to judge if he's enjoying himself or not, he has his reasons, and if he doesn't he'll choose to switch. Who knows, maybe he's done it already and just spreads what he can about what he believes Falco's weaknesses and strengths are. It's nice to have a good philosophy, but sometimes the character is more important to people than having a good character, even when it starts getting to levels that can be seen as cynical.
For instance, I play despite him being a character with many, many flaws that get to be incredibly irritating when facing someone better than you or playing one of his bad matchups. But I haven't dropped him because his playstyle forces me to constantly be aware and improve where I can. If I played Cloud, I could F-Smash my way to a high FG winrate, but that's a terrible habit that will just make sure I never break pools in any tournament. Basically it's the philosophy that I can do the same thing someone else does with a lesser tool. Not to gloat, but to make sure in the end that I'm a better player.

I actually wish I could play Cloud without every victory being blamed on him being an easy and incredibly strong character. But that's the community we're in, if you play a bottom tier, people think you're just gloating, and if you play a high tier, you immediately suck. It's easy to ignore if you play 100% competitively, but as someone who like the social aspect, I feel the pain of every Sonic main. But this is a different rant for another time.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Basically it's the philosophy that I can do the same thing someone else does with a lesser tool. Not to gloat, but to make sure in the end that I'm a better player.

Picking up a "lesser tool" does not automatically make you a better player. Full stop.

Smooth Criminal

 

[C0rvus]

People pick their characters for all sorts of reasons. And others drift aimlessly around the roster for two years and they find themselves nowhere.

If we want to discuss topics pertaining to character selection and ways of playing, something I have been trying to determine is the "playstyles" of the cast. Simply trying to cast them into a group of archetypes has been kind of daunting. The categories I have at the moment are: (And yes, some of these are possibly wrong, that's part of why I need help)

Zoner (primarily wants opponent at a fixed distance and has a strong normals the opponent must respect)


Pressure (focuses on making the opponent uncomfortable via unique zoning patterns or generally controlling the pace of the match)


Turtle (Stays defensive and either camps or zones at a comfortable distance. Anti-approach.)


Punisher (May struggle to get in, but has a focus on hard punishes or explosive kill power)


Mix-up/Offense (Keeps the opponent guessing between safe pressure and riskier, more rewarding options. Bait and punish.)


I am not sure if this is the right amount of groups or if I'm missing something.

I realize this method is disingenuous since characters typically do more than one thing and these are pretty vague (everyone zones and every character can apply pressure, etc.) and that players are/need to be dynamic in their play. The purpose is to help someone find their play style, so if they don't know, they can pick a character from each to play with, and see what sticks. Basically, I'm just trying to find my style, because it's not apparent at all.

I suppose it might be useful to determine first of all, the best group of archetypes, and then the most exemplary and the most effective of each.

 

[TriTails]

Picking up a "lesser tool" does not automatically make you a better player. Full stop.

Smooth Criminal

I would argue otherwise.

Picking Ganon doesn't mean you're automatically better than 95% of Smash players. But if you can do the same stuffs other characters' mains do while having tier disadvantage (IE getting PR'd similiarly), then you're most likely better than those players.

The logic I'm using is if you can make a house of wood that has similiar quality as another of concrete, then you're most likely the better builder.

 

[Djent]

There is a small 48-man tournament happening at Nagoya University in central Japan. There doesn't seem to be a stream, but here is the translated bracket. It's not particularly stacked, but there are a few top- and high-level entrants.

Spoiler: Players

Earth
Taiheita
Fuwa
DIO
Nga
Hatsuyuki
Ako
Isotaku
Gungnir

EDIT:

I wish I would've known so that could've been on my challonge account, then it would be easier to find everything, I couldnt find the JP bracket to translate

You're an admin now, so it'll still show up there.

 

[Trifroze]

Option 3: You're automatically worse than 95% of Smash players because you handicapped yourself at the character selection screen. Not being able to motivate yourself into picking and playing a top tier is ultimately a mentality that holds you back.

But at least if you win you're so good you beat someone with a low tier, and if you lose you only lost because of using a low tier!

Really though, mainly on lower levels of play, there are plenty of good characters who are very difficult to do well with, while there are many relatively bad characters you can kinda just throw moves out with and probably win against those struggling to play a more technical or more unforgiving character properly. Heavies like Ganondorf, Bowser and DK only become unforgiving once the opponent knows how to abuse them (and then but only then succeeding with them becomes difficult).

 

[Piipp]

Defitenly too low. Lucas has great aierals, a great combo throw into them, also many more great combos, TWO great kill throws and great kill power on many other moves, good spacing with pk fire, ability to heal from certain moves, great footstool combos, great down smash with a hitbox BEHIND him, and probably even more stuff I'm forgetting. He would probably be top 30, maybe even better, if it weren't for his lack of results.

Lucas + Ness is a great co-main combo too and WHY more people don't do this surprises me.

Edit:Also I think you may have rushed your Yoshi placement because that is way too low.

Frame 2 jab that also goes behind him, amazing recovery, best zair (imo), and like you said, even more stuff.

You're right about the Lucas + Ness combo as well. However I can't use Ness for other reasons. But Ness covers a good amount of Lucas's bad matchups.

I don't second Falco anymore because of that reason. Falco just can't cover my main's bad matchups.

 

[Mario766]

What kind of things should Smash 4 players in general try to implement or improve on, at any level of play?

Landing traps
Get-up punishes
Frame traps

Pretty much these three. A lot of characters have extremely bad landing options, and the same goes for options off the ledge. A good player can cover both pretty easily, leading to a ton of percent.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I've found that often you don't do better with better characters if you aren't as motivated to learn, optimize, and master them. If you can find a good character who motivates you as much as your low tier, then you should main them in tourney instead and keep the low tier as a pocket char. If not, then a lot of times it's not worth it. Granted there are some MUs that your low tier main simply won't be able to handle, and you ought to at least have a backup plan for them so you won't straight up lose at the character selection screen, but most characters can compete in most MUs in this game, so even a bad character can often get respectable results with a strong secondary. Just be prepared for the possibility that said higher tiered secondary may ultimately replace your low tier main.

 

[juddy96]

There is a small 48-man tournament happening at Nagoya University in central Japan. There doesn't seem to be a stream, but here is the translated bracket. It's not particularly stacked, but there are a few top- and high-level entrants.

Spoiler: Players

Earth
Taiheita
Fuwa
DIO
Nga
Hatsuyuki
Ako
Isotaku
Gungnir

I wish I would've known so that could've been on my challonge account, then it would be easier to find everything, I couldnt find the JP bracket to translate

 

[Y2Kay]

I feel like player's punishes are too weak too.

I know the game's more tame and generous engine is also to blame too, but recieving a 12% punishment for a mistake is kinda weak, and should be stronger than that, even if you're character's play style isn't based around it.

 

[Blobface]

If you want to find out why "I play a low tier thus I am more skilled" is rubbish, just consider the following:

Tournaments are at the most basic level tests of skill. So according to this logic, if a Pikachu player beats a Ganon in a Bo5 3-2, the Ganon player should win because they must've been much better at Smash 4 as a whole than the Pikachu player to keep it so close.

My avatar is a perfect depiction of how I feel about this line of thought.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Zoner (primarily wants opponent at a fixed distance and has a strong normals the opponent must respect)

You're like the only person that posted the very definition of zoners, thank you. People will slowly understand that it doesn't mean they abuse projectiles.
I'd probably put (half grappler) in there too.

 

[FuzzyQuills]

You're like the only person that posted the very definition of zoners, thank you. People will slowly understand that it doesn't mean they abuse projectiles.
I'd probably put (half grappler) in there too.

Could Kirby count as a zoner with certain copy abilities?

I'd say that anyone who would try classifying Link a zoner probably didn't think about how hard it would be to even zone with him. Still... could Link be classified a zoner? (And no, not because 75% of FG Links spam projectiles, I'm just curious)

 

[Mario766]

How is Luigi considered a zoner.

Unless his zone is literally in his face, because otherwise Luigi is gonna struggle to get in. He's more of a brawler, he wants in and wants to stay in.

 

[Djent]

Nico stream for Nagobura: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv265369441

EDIT: Gungnir just eliminated Taiheita !!!

 

[Trifroze]

Gungnir is a god

I've found that often you don't do better with better characters if you aren't as motivated to learn, optimize, and master them. If you can find a good character who motivates you as much as your low tier, then you should main them in tourney instead and keep the low tier as a pocket char. If not, then a lot of times it's not worth it. Granted there are some MUs that your low tier main simply won't be able to handle, and you ought to at least have a backup plan for them so you won't straight up lose at the character selection screen, but most characters can compete in most MUs in this game, so even a bad character can often get respectable results with a strong secondary. Just be prepared for the possibility that said higher tiered secondary may ultimately replace your low tier main.

Yeah, obviously it's unrealistic to expect everyone to be motivated by top tiers and thus they just have to go with the best character(s) they are able find interest in (although I think most people never even try to genuinely "begin" an interest in a top tier and might be surprised at the results if they did).

We'd ~all be better off in terms of performance if we could apply exactly the same motivation we have for our main into Cloud or Diddy or Ryu instead, but we don't want to do that. But we'd be better off if we could (not instantly but in some months). Of course there are players who do better with specific styles, but I think all styles share enough similarities which you have to be good at to do well that, if you're good at one, you can become practically just as good with another (it just might take longer than mere months).

Thank **** we are unable to think objectively and make switches of interest on the fly though. On the whole it'd be terrible.

 

[Ffamran]

All this pessimism and you still main this character. If he don't work out for you, just stop fooling with him and get someone good.

Unless they're optimistic about them and feel like they're strong characters that can do something and are characters they enjoy playing. Fframan def doesn't have that feeling of enjoyment and satisfaction with his character, so it's best if he just drops falco to a casual character and pick up some one better.

In a game with 58 characters, I manage to dislike a lot of them. My options are: quit Smash or stick with Falco. I have no faith in Falco managing to do anything remotely significant the way he is right now and will probably be in Smash 5. Sadly, that mostly comes down to his Blaster. A zoner without a functional projectile or a weapon which doesn't apply to Falco; essentially, a Ryu without his Hadouken or a Guile without his Sonic Boom. Can't really expect him to do anything when half his game plan just isn't there; that half getting filled in by a sort of pressure and rushdown based mostly on movement which doesn't work since he's not Captain Falcon, Fox, Little Mac, Mewtwo, or anyone who's fast.

Spoiler: A Story of Hate and Why You Shouldn't Be Like Me

Wolf would have been my go-to character, but that's not a choice now is it? Intended to use Little Mac way back, but he's way too volatile, moved on to Ganondorf 'cause he was hilariously strong, but otherwise, I don't really care for him, and then I ended up hate-maining -- I still pretty much do -- Falco back in the days of "Falco really is not trash". After that, I stuck around for the Falco community, stopped caring about trying to prove Falco is good, and more about trying to correct misinformation and destroy disinformation. Tried out Marth and Palutena; Marth's too elegant and Palutena feels limiting because I can't freely use her tilts like I can with Falco, Fox, and Wolf. I think I even intended to main Peach once, but hell if I'm going to deal with her floaty self -- don't like characters who aren't fast fallers. Ike... just doesn't click like in Brawl even though all I did with him was spam charged Smashes and laughed at how fast stuff was sent flying. Pretty much everything boils down to nonsensical reasons: other characters lack flexibility in their moves which has nothing to do anything with their moves being good or bad, just I can pick this option 'cause I want to and that's pretty much it; some other characters feel "weak" like Sheik hits like a pool noodle and if they are strong, they're not explosive, so fast and strong moves, and sort of weird, but I like being able to freestyle which itself is a combination of both explosive and flexible moves. Not a lot of characters really let you do whatever the hell you want for followups and get away with it.

Flair... Falco's shtick in Melee that wasn't there for multiple reasons in Brawl including changes to him and the game, instead, Falco was pretty much the most annoying dirtbag character who could approach and zone. Could you really blame him, though? Projectiles are problematic in Smash and the developers gave him a supped up one. Both were oppressive, but Melee Falco is fun to watch since he's unpredictable or rather, his options for followups are more varied; he pretty much made combo videos practical and not concepts and it was just his thing. He probably would have had a similar ability in Brawl and he has it in Smash 4, except how does he get there is the thing and that's the most frustrating thing about him.

I honestly think if Falco was a high-tier in Smash 4 which would require some changes, notably a half decent projectile like, I don't know, Fox's Impact Blaster or Ryu's Hadouken, he would be one of the most interesting characters to the audience. Of course, that would mean there would be a ton more Falco players, so people would get bored of him, but the best ones? They would make matches crazy. What will he do is the question and he'll answer with: "Anything." There's never really a, "Falco has to do this and that", for damage, KOs, setups, etc. There isn't general style of play you can put for Falco. That highly variable moveset of his is one of the things why I stick with him. It just lets his players do whatever they want leading to various styles of play that's so fun to watch and try to pick up the differences between them. Part of it is you're kind of forced to since Falco is limited when it comes to mid-range and the other part is just him; that's who Falco is.

It's just frustrating looking at Falco, particularly Brawl Falco who was a mess of design choices which is transferred over to Smash 4 Falco, albeit, some were fixed like his multi-hits actually connect and aren't Melee Falco and Fox Fairs, but with almost a third of the damage and barely any knockback which in Falco's case, was both his Nair and Fair despite Brawl being the game to introduce auto-link angles to try and address multi-hits. It's also frustrating when looking at his blatantly overpowered tools and seeing the effects of it which if anyone played Brawl and Melee, knows how much of a prick Falco is. Then it becomes more frustrating when looking at how the developers allow a character to have an incomplete game plan instead of refining his niche like they did to Marth -- they even tried giving him a different game plan when it came to his juggling by making his "strong-hit" Uair like how Cloud, Diddy?, Fox, Marth, Roy, and Yoshi juggle for a "weak-hit" Uair that doesn't work when he's not fast enough like Captain Falcon, Mario, and ZSS are. Becomes even more frustrating seeing them damage another character's niche, Bayonetta. Wasn't Falco enough? Why are you trying to make more characters lose their niche in Smash?

So, if you've been wondering if I like the character and why I choose to stick with him, there's your answer. Doesn't mean I can't criticize the hell out of or **** on him and the developers and have absolutely no faith in him. Have I been in situations like this before? Yeah. Character I plan to main in Street Fighter V, if and when I get the game, is Laura. I know for a fact Laura is limited. Do I care? Nope. Will I complain? You bet your *** I will and it'll be nonsensical too like I'll start complaining about why her only her red outfit has a worn out look while her other outfits don't. I like Ken and Nash, but I just like Laura's gameplay more even if it's more limiting than Ken and Nash's. Related to SFV; fun observation: Karin's EX Ressenha resembles Falco's Nair. Don't believe me? Watch this: https://youtu.be/DrwHh078OB8?t=488, and compare it to Falco's Nair: https://gfycat.com/RepentantAffectionateHochstettersfrog.

What kind of things should Smash 4 players in general try to implement or improve on, at any level of play?

Movement, movement, and... movement. It's really odd seeing players have stiff movement. Smash games give you much more freedom and flexibility when it comes to movement, so why not make full use of that? Seeing players, mostly low and mid-level, but sometimes even high-level, only run or have very linear move ins while others just do repetitive movement thinking it's going to do anything feels odd. When you can make a character like Falco, Ike, Luigi, or Ryu who people say are slow, have rigid movement, or whatever, look fast, you're doing something right, and it's amazing to watch. Now, take that up a notch with characters like Captain Falcon, Fox, Mewtwo, Rosalina & Luma, Robin, and Sonic. Imagine fluid movement with them. They would be untouchable.

Muhammad Ali just passed away today and while he may be gone, his impact will never go away. What's one thing Muhammad Ali was known for saying? "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." You can interpret this in so many ways, but in context of movement, you gotta be smooth and relaxed, but also be able to suddenly snap and be unpredictable. Players don't have to be all erratic and constantly moving, but just be comfortable moving around; comfortable with how their character moves. Just seems like wasted potential when seeing Fox, Mario, or Yoshi players move like thrown rocks or they've got parachutes on them making movement look hesitant and sluggish when they should be moving around like leaves in the wind or dancers. Basic movement. Should be a "day one" thing not combos or tech skill. Always funny sometimes stumbling on posts saying stuff like, "I can multi-shine in Melee", or, "I know all of Diddy's combos, so what else do I need to learn?"

 

[FuzzyQuills]

In a game with 58 characters, I manage to dislike a lot of them. My options are: quit Smash or stick with Falco. I have no faith in Falco managing to do anything remotely significant the way he is right now and will probably be in Smash 5. Sadly, that mostly comes down to his Blaster. A zoner without a functional projectile or a weapon which doesn't apply to Falco; essentially, a Ryu without his Hadouken or a Guile without his Sonic Boom. Can't really expect him to do anything when half his game plan just isn't there; that half getting filled in by a sort of pressure and rushdown based mostly on movement which doesn't work since he's not Captain Falcon, Fox, Little Mac, Mewtwo, or anyone who's fast.

Spoiler: A Story of Hate and Why You Shouldn't Be Like Me

Wolf would have been my go-to character, but that's not a choice now is it? Intended to use Little Mac way back, but he's way too volatile, moved on to Ganondorf 'cause he was hilariously strong, but otherwise, I don't really care for him, and then I ended up hate-maining -- I still pretty much do -- Falco back in the days of "Falco really is not trash". After that, I stuck around for the Falco community, stopped caring about trying to prove Falco is good, and more about trying to correct misinformation and destroy disinformation. Tried out Marth and Palutena; Marth's too elegant and Palutena feels limiting because I can't freely use her tilts like I can with Falco, Fox, and Wolf. I think I even intended to main Peach once, but hell if I'm going to deal with her floaty self -- don't like characters who aren't fast fallers. Ike... just doesn't click like in Brawl even though all I did with him was spam charged Smashes and laughed at how fast stuff was sent flying. Pretty much everything boils down to nonsensical reasons: other characters lack flexibility in their moves which has nothing to do anything with their moves being good or bad, just I can pick this option 'cause I want to and that's pretty much it; some other characters feel "weak" like Sheik hits like a pool noodle and if they are strong, they're not explosive, so fast and strong moves, and sort of weird, but I like being able to freestyle which itself is a combination of both explosive and flexible moves. Not a lot of characters really let you do whatever the hell you want for followups and get away with it.

Flair... Falco's shtick in Melee that wasn't there for multiple reasons in Brawl including changes to him and the game, instead, Falco was pretty much the most annoying dirtbag character who could approach and zone. Could you really blame him, though? Projectiles are problematic in Smash and the developers gave him a supped up one. Both were oppressive, but Melee Falco is fun to watch since he's unpredictable or rather, his options for followups are more varied; he pretty much made combo videos practical and not concepts and it was just his thing. He probably would have had a similar ability in Brawl and he has it in Smash 4, except how does he get there is the thing and that's the most frustrating thing about him.

I honestly think if Falco was a high-tier in Smash 4 which would require some changes, notably a half decent projectile like, I don't know, Fox's Impact Blaster or Ryu's Hadouken, he would be one of the most interesting characters to the audience. Of course, that would mean there would be a ton more Falco players, so people would get bored of him, but the best ones? They would make matches crazy. What will he do is the question and he'll answer with: "Anything". There's never really a, "Falco has to do this and that" for damage, KOs, setups, etc. There isn't general style of play you can put for Falco. That highly variable moveset of his is one of the things why I stick with him. It just lets his players do whatever they want leading to various styles of play that's so fun to watch and try to pick up the differences between them. Part of it is you're kind of forced to since Falco is limited when it comes to mid-range and the other part is just him; that's who Falco is.

It's just frustrating looking at Falco, particularly Brawl Falco who was a mess of design choices which is transferred over to Smash 4 Falco, albeit, some were fixed like his multi-hits actually connect and aren't Melee Falco and Fox Fairs, but with almost a third of the damage and barely any knockback which in Falco's case, was both his Nair and Fair despite Brawl being the game to introduce auto-link angles to try and address multi-hits. It's also frustrating when looking at his blatantly overpowered tools and seeing the effects of it which if anyone played Brawl and Melee, knows how much of a prick Falco is. Then it become frustrating when looking at how the developers allow a character to have an incomplete game plan instead of refining his niche like they did to Marth -- they even tried giving him a different game plan when it came to his juggling by making his "strong-hit" Uair like how Cloud, Diddy?, Fox, Marth, Roy, and Yoshi juggle for a "weak-hit" Uair that doesn't work when he's not fast enough like Captain Falcon, Mario, and ZSS are. Becomes even more frustrating seeing them damage another character's niche, Bayonetta. Wasn't Falco enough? Why are you trying to make more characters lose their niche in Smash?

So, if you've been wondering if I like the character and why I choose to stick with him, there's your answer. Doesn't mean I can't criticize the hell out of or **** on him and the developers and have absolutely no faith in him. Have I been in situations like this before? Yeah. Character I plan to main in Street Fighter V, if and when I get the game, is Laura. I know for a fact Laura is limited. Do I care? Nope. Will I complain? You bet your *** I will and it'll be nonsensical too like I'll start complaining about why her only her red outfit has a worn out look while her other outfits don't. I like Ken and Nash, but I just like Laura's gameplay more even if it's more limiting than Ken and Nash's. Related to SFV; fun observation: Karin's EX Ressenha resembles Falco's Nair. Don't believe me? Watch this: https://youtu.be/DrwHh078OB8?t=488, and compare it to Falco's Nair: https://gfycat.com/RepentantAffectionateHochstettersfrog.

Movement, movement, and... movement. It's really odd seeing players have stiff movement. Smash games give you much more freedom and flexibility when it comes to movement, so why not make full use of that? Seeing players, mostly low and mid-level, but sometimes even high-level, only run or have very linear move ins while others just do repetitive movement thinking it's going to do anything feels odd. When you can make a character like Falco, Ike, Luigi, or Ryu who people say are slow, have rigid movement, or whatever, look fast, you're doing something right, and it's amazing to watch. Now, take that up a notch with characters like Captain Falcon, Fox, Mewtwo, Rosalina & Luma, Robin, and Sonic. Imagine fluid movement with them. They would be untouchable.

Muhammad Ali just passed away today and while he may be gone, his impact will never go away. What's one thing Muhammad Ali was known for saying? "Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee." You can interpret this in so many ways, but in context of movement, you gotta be smooth and relaxed, but also be able to suddenly snap and be unpredictable. Players don't have to be all erratic and constantly moving, but just be comfortable moving around; comfortable with how their character moves. Just seems like wasted potential when seeing Fox, Mario, or Yoshi players move like thrown rocks or they've got parachutes on them making movement look hesitant and sluggish when they should be moving around like leaves in the wind or dancers. Basic movement. Should be a "day one" thing not combos or tech skill. Always funny sometimes stumbling on posts saying stuff like, "I can multi-shine in Melee", or, "I know all of Diddy's combos, so what else do I need to learn?"

That entire post was pretty much spot-on, and I liked the spoiler you put there. Good stuff.
In fact, those reasons are why despite his shortcomings, I've started maining Kirby in Sm4sh.

 

[Jucchan]

Nico stream for Meikobura: http://live.nicovideo.jp/watch/lv265369441

EDIT: Gungnir just eliminated Taiheita !!!

It's Nagobura btw, as in Nagoya