Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Djent]

Spoiler: Nagobura Results

1) Earth
2) Nga
3) Gobu
4) Da-chan
5) Hatsuyuki
5) Gungnir
7) Taiheita
7) Ando Daisuke

Bracket.

 

[dakotaisgreat]

I think the discussion is a bit off topic and dumb but I want to throw my 2 cents in anyways.

Playing a low tier character doesn't mean you're super good.

Playing a high tier character doesn't mean you suck or don't know what you're doing.

But if I'm playing Zelda and you're playing Cloud and I take you to game 5 and very narrowly lose the final game I'm going to say with confidence that I am better then you at the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Or the Cloud player has no idea how to fight Zelda because she doesnt exist in tournaments for the most part.

Meanwhile you as a Zelda player should know how to fight Cloud, but you still lost therefore you are imo not as good as you probably think you are and you should stop fooling yourself.

Or not, w/e floats your boat.

 

[Trifroze]

When put out like this, I'm sure everyone can come up with a couple key reasons in their mind why this doesn't mean Alphicans is a better player than Nairo.

E: go away Emblem Lord

E2: might as well spill out the other reason which is that anyone can do well against anyone in a set here or there, skill is determined more accurately the more you play

 

[Routa]

Trifroze

Mind explain us the ZSS vs Mac MU? You are one of the few guys here who has somekind of experience of the MU thanks to ZartZu.

 

[Empire~]

Trifroze

On the other hand, the more you play against a given opponent the more you learn their specific habits and mannerisms. Just because you are able to beat a skilled player in tournament doesn't mean you can do the same at a larger event where you have to fight a similarly skilled player who you are ~not~ familiar with.

For example, we can split dakotaisgreat 's example into two scenarios.
1. The Zelda and the Cloud practice against each other all the time - they're training buddies.
2. They have never played against each other before.

In scenario 1, the Zelda player was better able to pick up on many the Cloud player's habits over a long period of time during practice sessions, allowing the Zelda player to come very close to winning despite the difference in character strength.
In scenario 2, the disparity between set closeness and character strength suggests the Zelda player was stronger. Emblem Lord 's argument doesn't hold too much weight as it applies to both parties - who is to say that the Cloud player doesn't have Zelda experience? Maybe he/she lives in Sourth Flr and plays against Purple Guy all the time. The same applies to Zelda and Cloud matchup experience.

 

[Radical Larry]

You know it's very understandable that people merely underrate characters if they don't play AS them. The main reasons a character is held back in this game are not what their attributes are, it's what the people don't do with them. Difficulty curve, player interest, player bias, lack of representation, lack of tournament representation, all of those are actual reasons why many characters are held back.

It's when someone has unfavorable thoughts and opinions on a character, they drive it to where they convince others that a character is bad without testing them out. It's a paradigm that I decided to test with, and surprisingly enough, I've had my own shift happen to me with the character of King Dedede.

I stated a while back that I thought he was the worst character in the game and had almost no winnable match-ups. Well, when I decided to pick him up, that started changing. Now I'm pretty great with King Dedede and may even go into a tournament with him sometime later. I didn't realize he had very powerful tools despite his mobility and lackluster frame data on some attacks.

When someone plays a new character that they believe is worse than reality, they start having that sort of paradigm shift to them. That's how we may eventually get a more balanced out tier list, by actually seeing what these characters have to offer by using them and finding new things, all instead of just taking them at face value and video value. If we do the latter, we come out with horrendous arguments that become redundant with various results that do come out.

Listen to me, I might not have the best types of posts, but I really know what holds characters back, and often or not, people complain about their traits and not realize they should complain about what they aren't doing yet with those characters. People come out to blame something about the character/character design first and themselves second. That's how I really see it.

 

[ARGHETH]

Emblem Lord 's argument doesn't hold too much weight as it applies to both parties - who is to say that the Cloud player doesn't have Zelda experience? Maybe he/she lives in Sourth Flr and plays against Purple Guy all the time. The same applies to Zelda and Cloud matchup experience.

Except it is much, much more likely for someone to have good Cloud experience than good Zelda experience.

 

[Nobie]

1) I know it can be fun and cathartic to complain about your main, but don't make it your reason for being in a game. That's like making your entire identity about how you hate some anime. Oh, you're an anti-fan of Wixoss [or whatever show]? Oh, you watch every episode anyway? Please don't. It's just not healthy.

2) Characters can be used to train certain aspects of gameplay, but it doesn't necessarily have to do with how good or bad they are overall. Rather, it has to do with relying on certain characters' tools as a crutch and thus not developing smarter play from them.

For example, if you're someone who wants to learn how to approach more patiently and you're normally playing Diddy Kong, there's a chance you might rely so heavily on things like d-tilt and fair that you don't actually learn anything but "man these moves are really good." Or maybe you don't learn that at all, and your idea of "approaching" is "spam these moves cause who's gonna punish them?" But if you're using Ganondorf, Ryu, or Rosalina, you're going to need a different mindset, one that forces you to think more. A worse character can do that, but it's not necessarily because they're worse overall.

3) Speaking of approach, I often see people say that "Jigglypuff is bad at approaching," and that this is basically the character's death sentence, but it's one of those statements I find kind of difficult to break down. Like, I can vaguely see where people are coming from, but something doesn't quite add up in my head or in the matches I watch.

If you say Kirby is bad at approaching, I can see the fact that he's pretty slow on the ground, really slow in the air, and has short range. If you say Ganondorf is bad at approaching because he's slow as hell in every way possible, then I get that too. However, with Jigglypuff that air speed and the ability to constantly weave back and forth, throw out a nair and pull backwards, etc., makes that idea seem odd to me.

Is it because of Jigglypuff's short limbs? Is it that an air-based approach comes with inherent disadvantages? Is it the difference between "approach" as getitng in and out of the opponent's space and "approach" as trying to break into it and stay there? Is this approach weakness there against all characters, or only a specific category, e.g. the best characters in the game?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Sooo after a decent amount of time looking around, asking people about stuff, and comparing opinions, I think that this might be good enough to post:

Blue = Advantage
Green = Even OR Slight Advantage
Yellow = Even (could sway to Green/Orange however)
Orange = Even OR Slight Disadvantage
Red = Disadvantage


A couple of major notes about this matchup chart:

- As you can obviously tell, this MU chart goes over the highest tiered characters. Well, at least until Mario, anyways. Pikachu and Mega Man are much more controversial than the rest. However, they were added for good reasons. One, being that they are usually topics of interest (Mega Man more recently than Pika though). Two, Mega Man has been getting good results recently, and has even won a national. And three, it just so happens that Pikachu actually has a solid enough MU spread against these characters.

- This MU chart goes over commonly agreed upon theories, and NOT RESULTS. Reason being is that this should not directly affect tier lists, opinions on tier lists, or other things. Rather, I made this so that it could potentially give a more solid understanding of the MU conversations that are usually discussed here, and how everything actually ends up looking like on a chart.

- This MU chart is NOT meant to be taken as 100% fact. There's a very high chance that I may have overlooked something, made a mistake somewhere, or a specific matchup is quite simply incorrect. Rather, this MU chart is supposed to be looked at critically, because by doing so, it could potentially offer some interesting metagame conversations as a result. Even that is not a guarantee, however. Key word: Potentially.

- Furthermore, this MU chart doesn't directly relate too my own personal feelings in regards to any of the MU's (mostly). I did, to the best of my ability, this with as little personal bias as possible. And I tried to replicate the common MU opinions as accurately as possible. That being said, you could end up easily disagreeing with this MU chart, or someone else's opinion about this matchup chart. That's simply just how opinions work. Just remember to be civil, respect other opinions, and all that hoo-haa~

- This MU chart isn't meant to be taken 100% seriously, either. It is meant to be something fun and interesting to look at, which could lead to serious discussions about character matchups, but the chart itself isn't all that important. Since it doesn't consider actual tournament results.

- If your character is not on this list, I apologize. I only wanted to keep it at 15 characters or less (12 was a nice number though). Any more than that could've quickly been a lot more disorganized, messier, less accurate...and not to mention more work for me to do. One thing that I would like to add though: If your character is not on this MU chart, this does NOT mean that I am saying that your character has no competitive use or purpose. Take Meta Knight, for example. He's a popular character, but he didn't quite make it onto the list, due to a poorer than expected MU spread. Despite this, he has one of the best matchups in the entire game against Rosalina, and still has a sizable tournament presence.

- Again, none of this is set in stone. Especially the Green and Orange colors (and possibly Yellow), as they could sway either way. Take note that I didn't actually post matchup ratios. What this means is that there is leeway for interpretation on what they could actually mean to you. Red and Blue are a bit more rigid, but even those could actually be Orange or Green in reality. Who knows? I'll leave that up to you to determine.

- Lastly, I do not take credit for the design of this chart. Someone else created it, but I forgot who. Otherwise, I would credit them here. It was someone from Smashboards though. I just pulled it from the internet, since it looked easy to look at and edit/work with. And also because I like Skittles, apparently. *shrugs*

- Actually nvm. Found it. Complete credit goes to these fine fellows: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-new-match-up-chart.241670/


Anyways, hopefully everyone understands all of that, lol

Interested in seeing what the comments will be like. Probably need to go to bed though.

(hopefully this doesn't cause bad things to happen...)

 

[Diddy Kong]

I am so happy that Diddy + Mewtwo might actually be the BEST combination to play in the game, outside of the most fun. <3

 

[Das Koopa]

Tournaments I'm using this weekend.

2GGT Mexico Saga (384 Entrants)
Midwest Mayhem 3 (160 Entrants)
TGC8 (128 Entrants)
Avalon U-IV (128 Entrants)
Santa Fe Smash Fiesta 2 (120 Entrants)

Anything else at near-96 or more?

 

[soniczx123]

Any notable Sonics going to any of these tournaments?

 

[Radical Larry]

Tournaments I'm using this weekend.

2GGT Mexico Saga (384 Entrants)
Midwest Mayhem 3 (160 Entrants)
TGC8 (128 Entrants)
Avalon U-IV (128 Entrants)
Santa Fe Smash Fiesta 2 (120 Entrants)

Anything else at near-96 or more?

I need to know if there's notable Link, Samus or Ganondorf players...and Bowser...King Dedede...Shulk.
Maybe Roy. But that's very highly unlikely for Roy to be there.

 

[Das Koopa]

I don't know about Fiesta 2 (not familiar with the Southwest/Mountain region meta) or Avalon (they don't use Smash.gg and I had to even ask around to get the entrant number lol) but JWest is attending Mexico Saga. As far as I know, Wrath, 6WX, Seagull Joe, and Komorikiri are all absent from any of the tournies I listed.

Scizor isn't attending Mexico Saga according to the Smash.gg page, however, Cat is attending Avalon.

After asking Tetra, no, Izaw and Ixis aren't attending Avalon either

 

[Trifroze]

Trifroze

Mind explain us the ZSS vs Mac MU? You are one of the few guys here who has somekind of experience of the MU thanks to ZartZu.

Neutral in general is like two people trying beat up each other drunk while wearing armor that reflects impacts. Then Mac is put in the air or offstage at basically any percent and he dies or ZSS is usmashed by Mac and dies after 70%. ZSS should be throwing out a lot of grabs until she hits that percent to put Mac into disadvantage. After that she can't throw them out raw because it's too easy for Mac to kill her from basically any distance.

Aside from that in my experience ZSS should focus on retreating well spaced aerials, occasional down smash to read and stuff out grounded approaches, a lot of shield + up b OoS, and mashing jab in CQC. Not sure what Mac should do besides roll around, try to powershield ZSS' attacks and aerials into punishes and armor through her stuff with running usmash or something. KO punch is hard to get rid of safely but it's also hard for Mac to confirm it onto an evasive ZSS.

ZSS should ban FD and probably TC in my opinion, Mac definitely BF and DL.

 

[Radical Larry]

I don't know about Fiesta 2 (not familiar with the Southwest/Mountain region meta) or Avalon (they don't use Smash.gg and I had to even ask around to get the entrant number lol) but JWest is attending Mexico Saga. As far as I know, Wrath, 6WX, Seagull Joe, and Komorikiri are all absent from any of the tournies I listed.

Scizor isn't attending Mexico Saga according to the Smash.gg page, however, Cat is attending Avalon.

After asking Tetra, no, Izaw and Ixis aren't attending Avalon either

Ouch. Kind of sucks. Maybe the Links are saving themselves for possibly bigger tournaments.

 

[ARISTOS]

You may feel "I'm better!" using a lower tiered character, but ultimately it won't count for much. The bottom line in a competitive setting is winning. You know the hyped up low tier mains that get praise? They win. Not winning while feeling superior ultimately does nothing, hinders your development, and is a channel for arrogance.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

1) I know it can be fun and cathartic to complain about your main, but don't make it your reason for being in a game. That's like making your entire identity about how you hate some anime. Oh, you're an anti-fan of Wixoss [or whatever show]? Oh, you watch every episode anyway? Please don't. It's just not healthy.

2) Characters can be used to train certain aspects of gameplay, but it doesn't necessarily have to do with how good or bad they are overall. Rather, it has to do with relying on certain characters' tools as a crutch and thus not developing smarter play from them.

For example, if you're someone who wants to learn how to approach more patiently and you're normally playing Diddy Kong, there's a chance you might rely so heavily on things like d-tilt and fair that you don't actually learn anything but "man these moves are really good." Or maybe you don't learn that at all, and your idea of "approaching" is "spam these moves cause who's gonna punish them?" But if you're using Ganondorf, Ryu, or Rosalina, you're going to need a different mindset, one that forces you to think more. A worse character can do that, but it's not necessarily because they're worse overall.

3) Speaking of approach, I often see people say that "Jigglypuff is bad at approaching," and that this is basically the character's death sentence, but it's one of those statements I find kind of difficult to break down. Like, I can vaguely see where people are coming from, but something doesn't quite add up in my head or in the matches I watch.

If you say Kirby is bad at approaching, I can see the fact that he's pretty slow on the ground, really slow in the air, and has short range. If you say Ganondorf is bad at approaching because he's slow as hell in every way possible, then I get that too. However, with Jigglypuff that air speed and the ability to constantly weave back and forth, throw out a nair and pull backwards, etc., makes that idea seem odd to me.

Is it because of Jigglypuff's short limbs? Is it that an air-based approach comes with inherent disadvantages? Is it the difference between "approach" as getitng in and out of the opponent's space and "approach" as trying to break into it and stay there? Is this approach weakness there against all characters, or only a specific category, e.g. the best characters in the game?

Speaking specifically about your point #2, characters being able to teach you other specific things better - I wholeheartedly agree and this is something I noticed in myself.

With playing say, Ganondorf vs playing Ryu. Sometimes Ryu can let you get away with just full hop nairing onto people's shields because of it's low landing lag and dtilt. You can't do that with Ganondorf. Playing Ganondorf was where I truly learned how to approach - empty hops, double jump mixups, safety via shield pushback, poking with dtilt.

While playing Roy, intercepting someone offstage can feel rather dangerouns because of his fall speed/recovery. But that just gave me more reason to use ledge trumping.

Playing Shulk can basically be empty hops, the character. Such is life when your forward facing aerial hits in front of you around frame 16 and grants 16 frames of landing lag.

Ike's uthrow fair isn't true at low percents and Link's dthrow usmash isnt true at high percents. This is where empty hops to bait airdodges came in.

Ike - sometimes recovering high isnt just better, it's the only way to live. Also 2 frame at the ledge.

Mewtwo's double jump and air mobility made it easier to truly have patience when gimping - follow their fall and force an option, instead of throwing out random dairs/bairs near the ledge and hoping.

Yes, you can learn all of this with a single character. But sometimes just testing/playing characters with options more limited (or just different) in some ways can open your eyes to options that you've been missing that you can apply to your other character.

 

[Solfiner]

Most good players that play low/mid tiers generally don't complain about losing to top tiers in my experience. They were fully ready for that possibilty from the beginning since they are obviously playing a worse character.

I feel like most people that pick up worse characters don't really care about winning it all but rather want to advance the meta to give a better picture of what the character can do.

 

[Trifroze]

Trifroze

On the other hand, the more you play against a given opponent the more you learn their specific habits and mannerisms. Just because you are able to beat a skilled player in tournament doesn't mean you can do the same at a larger event where you have to fight a similarly skilled player who you are ~not~ familiar with.

For example, we can split dakotaisgreat 's example into two scenarios.
1. The Zelda and the Cloud practice against each other all the time - they're training buddies.
2. They have never played against each other before.

In scenario 1, the Zelda player was better able to pick up on many the Cloud player's habits over a long period of time during practice sessions, allowing the Zelda player to come very close to winning despite the difference in character strength.
In scenario 2, the disparity between set closeness and character strength suggests the Zelda player was stronger. Emblem Lord 's argument doesn't hold too much weight as it applies to both parties - who is to say that the Cloud player doesn't have Zelda experience? Maybe he/she lives in Sourth Flr and plays against Purple Guy all the time. The same applies to Zelda and Cloud matchup experience.

Playing against an unknown player versus playing against a known player are indeed different skills, but what I was talking about wasn't meant to focus on that.

There are times when any player can be playing like a complete mess. If someone comes along with a low tier and wins against a person using a top tier who's spaghetting hard, it doesn't mean they now have a strong basis to call themselves the better player. If they win consistently or go even using a low tier (because ultimately you'll always end up fighting the same people more than once if you attend tournaments), or consistently place better or similarly in tournaments using a low tier, then they have valid reasons to consider themselves better. One set is hardly enough to make judgments about anything that's debatable to begin with.

What comes to MU experience, both the incentive (due to relevance) and likelihood (due to incentive as well as popularity) of having Cloud experience is massive. The incentive and likelihood of having Zelda experience is tiny. "Everything is possible" but let's not pretend like low tiers don't get wins due to matchup inexperience more often than top tiers do.

It's not even fair to assume any single player should have sufficient MU experience of every character when there might not exist players who can even offer that on the same side of the world. However, it is fair to assume that the same player has at least decent matchup experience of every top tier if they're a competitive player.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I don't know about Fiesta 2 (not familiar with the Southwest/Mountain region meta) or Avalon (they don't use Smash.gg and I had to even ask around to get the entrant number lol) but JWest is attending Mexico Saga. As far as I know, Wrath, 6WX, Seagull Joe, and Komorikiri are all absent from any of the tournies I listed.

Scizor isn't attending Mexico Saga according to the Smash.gg page, however, Cat is attending Avalon.

After asking Tetra, no, Izaw and Ixis aren't attending Avalon either

I couldn't find ANY tourney near me this weekend. Just gonna stream monster today.

 

[Luco]

Awww I was gonna suggest Ixis. That guy is pretty good.

Oh also I saw something interesting, NickRiddle called out someone for saying Lucas was bad, then got 2-0'd by Xanos at Paradigm Shift with both ZSS and Marth. The Marth game was pretty close though, but Lucas vs ZSS looks like a really interesting MU, because up until recently I thought Ness did better in that MU and I still don't really understand why it happened the way it did.

Empire~ It's also relevant that Zelda can go to game 5 against Cloud and win and there's a degree to which 'jank' (not in a negative light, probably closer to 'gimmicks') plays a part - the Zelda player is more likely to be aware of what Cloud is doing than the reverse, so even without playing that particular Cloud she can have the advantage.

I mean... You know what happened to me at BAM? :'( #stillsalty

 

[Das Koopa]

Those Avalon commentators need to chill. They basically whined and moaned about Yikurar using Mii Brawler lol for the whole set

 

[Radical Larry]

Most good players that play low/mid tiers generally don't complain about losing to top tiers in my experience. They were fully ready for that possibilty from the beginning since they are obviously playing a worse character.

I feel like most people that pick up worse characters don't really care about winning it all but rather want to advance the meta to give a better picture of what the character can do.

That is quite true. However, there are people who don't want to even see what some characters even do and would rather watch other characters (predominantly high or top) perform. This oft leads into people simply being quite arrogant without having a clear picture of how truly unskilled they are. Eventually, if they don't train against certain characters, they will lose to a person who knows how to fight their character. This board is no different in many people having bias against certain characters, despite how well they perform or what they can even do.

However, I do have something to say for now to everyone, and it's this.

One won tournament makes not the character of the player, but rather it is the founding of new consistency that makes the character in the stead. Heed these sentences I write as unlike fallacious claims, for ignorance to many leads for arrogance and oft bias-based clumsiness by one. One mustn't become a martyr for bias if they sense one tournament won by a particular character whom was living among obscurity or they merely disdain the character for who they are and ultimately shun them. Only once when one realizes the flaws in their bias will they realize their flaws as a player.

 

[Illuminose]

Sooo after a decent amount of time looking around, asking people about stuff, and comparing opinions, I think that this might be good enough to post:

Blue = Advantage
Green = Even OR Slight Advantage
Yellow = Even (could sway to Green/Orange however)
Orange = Even OR Slight Disadvantage
Red = Disadvantage


A couple of major notes about this matchup chart:

- As you can obviously tell, this MU chart goes over the highest tiered characters. Well, at least until Mario, anyways. Pikachu and Mega Man are much more controversial than the rest. However, they were added for good reasons. One, being that they are usually topics of interest (Mega Man more recently than Pika though). Two, Mega Man has been getting good results recently, and has even won a national. And three, it just so happens that Pikachu actually has a solid enough MU spread against these characters.

- This MU chart goes over commonly agreed upon theories, and NOT RESULTS. Reason being is that this should not directly affect tier lists, opinions on tier lists, or other things. Rather, I made this so that it could potentially give a more solid understanding of the MU conversations that are usually discussed here, and how everything actually ends up looking like on a chart.

- This MU chart is NOT meant to be taken as 100% fact. There's a very high chance that I may have overlooked something, made a mistake somewhere, or a specific matchup is quite simply incorrect. Rather, this MU chart is supposed to be looked at critically, because by doing so, it could potentially offer some interesting metagame conversations as a result. Even that is not a guarantee, however. Key word: Potentially.

- Furthermore, this MU chart doesn't directly relate too my own personal feelings in regards to any of the MU's (mostly). I did, to the best of my ability, this with as little personal bias as possible. And I tried to replicate the common MU opinions as accurately as possible. That being said, you could end up easily disagreeing with this MU chart, or someone else's opinion about this matchup chart. That's simply just how opinions work. Just remember to be civil, respect other opinions, and all that hoo-haa~

- This MU chart isn't meant to be taken 100% seriously, either. It is meant to be something fun and interesting to look at, which could lead to serious discussions about character matchups, but the chart itself isn't all that important. Since it doesn't consider actual tournament results.

- If your character is not on this list, I apologize. I only wanted to keep it at 15 characters or less (12 was a nice number though). Any more than that could've quickly been a lot more disorganized, messier, less accurate...and not to mention more work for me to do. One thing that I would like to add though: If your character is not on this MU chart, this does NOT mean that I am saying that your character has no competitive use or purpose. Take Meta Knight, for example. He's a popular character, but he didn't quite make it onto the list, due to a poorer than expected MU spread. Despite this, he has one of the best matchups in the entire game against Rosalina, and still has a sizable tournament presence.

- Again, none of this is set in stone. Especially the Green and Orange colors (and possibly Yellow), as they could sway either way. Take note that I didn't actually post matchup ratios. What this means is that there is leeway for interpretation on what they could actually mean to you. Red and Blue are a bit more rigid, but even those could actually be Orange or Green in reality. Who knows? I'll leave that up to you to determine.

- Lastly, I do not take credit for the design of this chart. Someone else created it, but I forgot who. Otherwise, I would credit them here. It was someone from Smashboards though. I just pulled it from the internet, since it looked easy to look at and edit/work with. And also because I like Skittles, apparently. *shrugs*

- Actually nvm. Found it. Complete credit goes to these fine fellows: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-new-match-up-chart.241670/


Anyways, hopefully everyone understands all of that, lol

Interested in seeing what the comments will be like. Probably need to go to bed though.

(hopefully this doesn't cause bad things to happen...)

Significant # of things tbh...not really slighting you but the perception that some people have in this thread of these matchups.

• Cloud loses to Sheik. I thought this was pretty well-established fact... Sheik's ability to edgeguard Cloud is nigh unmatched and consistently put Cloud in bad situations where has to waste limit tip the matchup in her favor. It's close because Cloud isn't actually that unsafe and has safe, powerful kill options he can use that outclass Sheik's, but
• Mewtwo definitively loses to Cloud, the theory by far suggesting that Cloud's large disjointed hitboxes and early KO power are detrimental to Mewtwo & Abadango listing it as Mewtwo's worst matchup.
• Cloud beats Diddy. GOML made this abundantly clear if the theory surrounding it wasn't already clear enough.
• Simply put there's no way Cloud beats Pikachu (figure I'll explain). The whole range thing would matter a lot more if Pikachu's short stature didn't mean that Cloud has legitimate trouble hitting Pikachu with many of his standard aerial options (short hop neutral airs, falling up airs, short hop back airs, and full hop down airs), and Pikachu has some of the free-er edgeguards in this matchup despite Cloud's recovery being better than most people think. It's also not easy to juggle Pikachu with up airs. The matchup is closer to Pikachu's favor than a loss for Pikachu, although I think most would call it even because Cloud has good options to deal with Quick Attack and of course the KO power differential...which is offset by the edgeguards in this matchup but still exists.
• Cloud beats Mario. Mario actually struggles with swords, especially when they have safe options like Marth or Corrin or, well, Cloud. Enough said there.
• No winning matchup for Sheik against Mario is imo questionable, with tbh fairly consistent results showing that the matchup is difficult for Mario to play. She's hard to grab, she's hard to landing trap...Sheik just has to remain consistent against Mario and abuse stage position. When this is done Ally has frequently shown that he loses to Sheiks. The matchup looks more even if Sheik plays more aggressive, which is why Ally's sets against Mr R are closer than other Sheiks, yet even then Mr R actually has the set advantage post patch & his loss at Pound was game 5.
• Rosa loses to Pikachu. Both sides (Rosa and Pika) tend to agree about the Pikachu matchup so I'm not really going to say much there. Edgeguards and Pikachu's ability to kill Luma easily are the fundamental reasons.
• Pikachu beats Diddy, slightly. Also not going to say much about this matchup because both sides tend to agree about this... I don't really get how Diddys saying - and Pikachu's saying + turns into 'well it's even', that's really not how it works especially if this is not meant to be a results-based chart.
• Sonic and Mega Man should be listed as orange for Diddy. These matchups are the definition of 'even or slight disadvantage' from the theoretical standpoint. Diddy vs Mega Man is supported by recent top level matches (Kamemushi vs Nietono), Sonic as well (KEN vs Nietono and MVD vs Manny iirc?).
• Mewtwo losing to Sonic is not the accepted theory--the accepted theory is dead even.
• Fox beating Pikachu and ZSS are both highly questionable. Very small results sample size for both and even the sample size that exists is practically irrelevant. I will just say that both Larry and ESAM say Fox loses to Pikachu, which should tell enough of the story to say that Fox doesn't win, and that Larry opted to go Mario against Nairo instead of Fox (probably for a reason!).
• Ryu losing to none of Sheik, Pikachu, or Cloud is uh...yeah. These should all be listed as orange, generally supported both by theory and results. Ryu's only saving grace in the Sheik matchup is punishes given how bad he loses neutral and Sheik's ability to trap him in bad situations, for Pikachu there's the short stature/small size limiting more than few of Ryu's typical neutral options and hard edgeguards (again the only real saving grace is TSRK except Ryu doesn't as great of punishes in this matchup as Sheik), and then there's Cloud who just has this huge range advantage with honestly comparable punish power.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

I am so happy that Diddy + Mewtwo might actually be the BEST combination to play in the game, outside of the most fun. <3

As someone who mains both I can confirm that they do work nicely. Both characters are extremely safe and can poke for days, and get a lot of bread and butter from down tilt. Mewtwo does better vs zoning and has stronger kill power, but Diddy has better rushdown capabilities and has more reliable kill setups. Mewtwo does well against some of Diddy's more uncomfortable matchups like rosa, mm...very competent tourney duo.

Only thing is, I don't know if I'd call it the best combination in the game. Mario+Cloud is really, really good.

 

[Blobface]

Gungnir winning over Taiheita is really inspiring to see. While it's not one of his worst matchups, most Ganon's agree Ganon v Lucas is pretty bad. Shows that the character can still do work.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Significant # of things tbh...not really slighting you but the perception that some people have in this thread of these matchups.

• Cloud loses to Sheik. I thought this was pretty well-established fact... Sheik's ability to edgeguard Cloud is nigh unmatched and consistently put Cloud in bad situations where has to waste limit tip the matchup in her favor. It's close because Cloud isn't actually that unsafe and has safe, powerful kill options he can use that outclass Sheik's, but
• Mewtwo definitively loses to Cloud, the theory by far suggesting that Cloud's large disjointed hitboxes and early KO power are detrimental to Mewtwo & Abadango listing it as Mewtwo's worst matchup.
• Cloud beats Diddy. GOML made this abundantly clear if the theory surrounding it wasn't already clear enough.
• Simply put there's no way Cloud beats Pikachu (figure I'll explain). The whole range thing would matter a lot more if Pikachu's short stature didn't mean that Cloud has legitimate trouble hitting Pikachu with many of his standard aerial options (short hop neutral airs, falling up airs, short hop back airs, and full hop down airs), and Pikachu has some of the free-er edgeguards in this matchup despite Cloud's recovery being better than most people think. It's also not easy to juggle Pikachu with up airs. The matchup is closer to Pikachu's favor than a loss for Pikachu, although I think most would call it even because Cloud has good options to deal with Quick Attack and of course the KO power differential...which is offset by the edgeguards in this matchup but still exists.
• Cloud beats Mario. Mario actually struggles with swords, especially when they have safe options like Marth or Corrin or, well, Cloud. Enough said there.
• No winning matchup for Sheik against Mario is imo questionable, with tbh fairly consistent results showing that the matchup is difficult for Mario to play. She's hard to grab, she's hard to landing trap...Sheik just has to remain consistent against Mario and abuse stage position. When this is done Ally has frequently shown that he loses to Sheiks. The matchup looks more even if Sheik plays more aggressive, which is why Ally's sets against Mr R are closer than other Sheiks, yet even then Mr R actually has the set advantage post patch & his loss at Pound was game 5.
• Rosa loses to Pikachu. Both sides (Rosa and Pika) tend to agree about the Pikachu matchup so I'm not really going to say much there. Edgeguards and Pikachu's ability to kill Luma easily are the fundamental reasons.
• Pikachu beats Diddy, slightly. Also not going to say much about this matchup because both sides tend to agree about this... I don't really get how Diddys saying - and Pikachu's saying + turns into 'well it's even', that's really not how it works especially if this is not meant to be a results-based chart.
• Sonic and Mega Man should be listed as orange for Diddy. These matchups are the definition of 'even or slight disadvantage' from the theoretical standpoint. Diddy vs Mega Man is supported by recent top level matches (Kamemushi vs Nietono), Sonic as well (KEN vs Nietono and MVD vs Manny iirc?).
• Mewtwo losing to Sonic is not the accepted theory--the accepted theory is dead even.
• Fox beating Pikachu and ZSS are both highly questionable. Very small results sample size for both and even the sample size that exists is practically irrelevant. I will just say that both Larry and ESAM say Fox loses to Pikachu, which should tell enough of the story to say that Fox doesn't win, and that Larry opted to go Mario against Nairo instead of Fox (probably for a reason!).
• Ryu losing to none of Sheik, Pikachu, or Cloud is uh...yeah. These should all be listed as orange, generally supported both by theory and results. Ryu's only saving grace in the Sheik matchup is punishes given how bad he loses neutral and Sheik's ability to trap him in bad situations, for Pikachu there's the short stature/small size limiting more than few of Ryu's typical neutral options and hard edgeguards (again the only real saving grace is TSRK except Ryu doesn't as great of punishes in this matchup as Sheik), and then there's Cloud who just has this huge range advantage with honestly comparable punish power.

Emblem Lord already explained why Ryu does not lose to Pikachu. Also, I'm pretty sure that Ryu has a winning record vs ESAM.

 

[Illuminose]

Emblem Lord already explained why Ryu does not lose to Pikachu. Also, I'm pretty sure that Ryu has a winning record vs ESAM.

Have you even seen ESAM vs Trela?

 

[MachoCheeze]

Have you even seen ESAM vs Trela?

"Have you ever seen one match?"

Despite the fact that DJ Jack has run a train on ESAM before. Most of Ryus buttons are gonna stuff Pika out. He's also gonna die at like 40%.

 

[Emblem Lord]

^^^^THIS!!!!!

Holy mother of all that is logical in the world, there is nothing in theory or results to show that Pika beats Ryu.

Even match mah dudes.

Ryu loses to Cloud imo. I think Ryu vs Sheik is close to even but 55/45 her advantage. Thing is she only has one winning strat which is to run all day. She cannot beat him in a head on contest. His frame data rivals her and he will win every trade. A single mistake past 50% is death. But her mobility, edgeguarding and needles gives her just enough "ummph" to win. You only need to see Trela vs basically any Texas or Socal Sheik to see that Ryu does not fear Sheiks rushdown at all. She has to play defense or die.

 

[R3D3MON]

Emblem Lord

Do you think Ryu loses to Cloud because of his disjoints?

Also how effectively can Ryu edgeguard Cloud's up-b? Is it possible to dair cloud's up-b while Cloud is rising or do you have to go behind cloud? Also is hadouken of any valuable use in this MU?

 

[Diddy Kong]

I still don't really agree that Diddy loses to Sonic and Pikachu, if any other Top Tier I could see Diddy losing to, it's Mario. He definitely loses to Cloud and Rosalina however.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu can spike the hell out of Clouds up b during start up. His head sticks up just a little above this sword. but after start up, it has to be behind cloud for it to work.

Cloud has easy answers to anything Ryu tries to do. Hadoukens can be dtilted on reaction. I hate bringing up multi hits I truly do, but Clouds cross slash craps all over FA and his buttons generally outspace it. Cloud can edgeguard Ryu pretty reliably, just need to pay attention. Cloud can dair spike tatsu and shoryu during recovery right through the stage in fact. Run off LCS towards the ledge is also really good against a Ryu that tries to recover low.

Basically Cloud can safely challenge anything Ryu does, really no different then other sword wielders but unlike them Cloud is just more overtuned. Safer, better frame data, deadlier traps, WAY better hitboxes and Ryu doesnt punish Cloud quite as hard as say Roy or Ike who die to utilt locks and set-ups for example. Unless Cloud has limit in which case he is basically Sheik and dies to every kill set-up. But thats alleviated by just using limit once you get it then building it up again.

I don't think it's terrible. Probably another 55/45.

 

[R3D3MON]

Emblem Lord

Does the hitbox cloud's dair beat the rising hitbox on shoryu (the one that hits through the stage)?

Also as a follow-up question, how do you think Ryu deals with Marth?

 

[Mario766]

What causes Cloud to fall out of locks/set-ups more then say Ike? Cloud has slightly higher gravity/fall speed but slightly less weight, at least in non-limit. Though up-tilt doesn't work super well on Ike to begin with with a combination of DI and SDI, Ike's lower gravity helps here.

Also I find it hard to believe that Shoryu doesn't have a pretty big disjoint.

It beats Eruption straight-up, that's HARD.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Yes, Clouds dair beats Ryus fist. Ryus fist doesnt have a MASSIVE disjoint on up b. It's just fast. You can still hit him. Cloud can actually spike everyone in the game either before they grab the ledge or during the 2 frame snap. The timing is diff for everyone. Sheik and Mewtwo are the easiest to hit imo.

Ryu vs Marth is virtually the same match as vs Cloud but Marth is honestly straight up weaker then Cloud so Ryu wins slightly. Sounds depressing I know but thats pretty much it and I know a good chunk of the Marth community agrees with me. Marth is less scary on stage, way less scary to get grabbed by, safer buttons, but conversion is average unlike Cloud. Also Marths traps arent as threatening as Clouds because Cloud has LCS so Ryu is now forced to guess way more in landing situations when Cloud has limit.

Clouds hurtbox always seemed weird to me. I noticed I tend to fall out of combos when I played him more so then other chars. Especially vs ZSS and MK or just ladder type combos in general.

 

[ZSaberLink]

I need to know if there's notable Link, Samus or Ganondorf players...and Bowser...King Dedede...Shulk.
Maybe Roy. But that's very highly unlikely for Roy to be there.

Probably Catana for Link at Avalon. Not sure who else.


Das Koopa - Avalon U 4 ended and S1-14 beat iStudying 3-0. iStudying kept SDing as Sheik in games 2-3. Not sure if he went Greninja that set though.

 

[conTAgi0n]

It seems to me that thread consensus could be drifting towards Cloud being #1. The matchup discussion certainly seems to support this. Is there any character who can be argued to have a spread equal to/better than Cloud?

It seemed for a while that everyone agreed on a roughly equal top 3 of . Now it seems like perhaps is slightly behind , at least when human fallibility is taken into account. has more losing matchups than , one of them being himself. is more and more becoming a part of this conversation, but I think it's safe to say he hasn't quite proven himself to be there yet.

If it's still too early to say we have a best character, is it reasonable to say at least that is most solid contender for that spot? I'm trying to base this mostly off of my reading of discussion here, but this has also been my perception for a while.