Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Djent]

Question: What are 's matchups against the high/top tier characters like? Who does he win against, go even with, and lose against? I know that Pikachu is a bit of a landmine here, but I am curious.

IMO (this is only for "good" characters which are arbitrarily selected by me ):

Spoiler: Pretty Easy ("+2")

Spoiler: Advantage ("+1")

Spoiler: About Even ("0")

Spoiler: Disadvantage ("-1")

Spoiler: Pretty Hard ("-2")

 

[Fatmanonice]

eSAM's tier list is even more egregious than ZeRo's.

From the bottom up we have characters like Wii Fit, Duck Hunt, Shulk, Doctor Mario, Lucina and Bowser Jr. who have no place being that low. Then there's the inconsistent and outright wrong information he throws out, saying things like Falco's Phantasm is slower than Fox's despite being objectively faster, or that Falco's down tilt is unsafe.

It's largely nonsensical

I think it's just a lack of perspective. It's like with super rich people and how they largely forget the concept of how much most things are worth. He's a top level player, when was the last time he even fought a Lucina or Bowser Jr that was worth his time? Doesn't help that characters like Wii Fit and Duck Hunt have cult followings with their best players typically staying put in their respective cities most of the year. These views are pretty common for top level players because a vast majority of the characters they fight are top and high tier characters.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Results are what put theory to the test, if he's getting results of a 30-35 character like you said, your theory of bottom 10 is wrong and irrelevant, and it's time to go back to the drawing board to find out why he's performing like this. You can't let your obvious hate towards link influence your opinion this badly, so please try to reevaluate link in anew unbiased way

I have done this, it doesn't seem to make him any better. Like I suppose he could maybe be just a little above bottom 10 (like 12) in theory but defitenly not any better. His frame data, matchup spread, recovery (kinda), certain moves, and mobility are all pretty bad. I probably forgot something in there too.

Also you forget about my hatred for Marth

 

[Kofu]

IMO (this is only for "good" characters which are arbitrarily selected by me ):

Spoiler: Pretty Easy ("+2")

Spoiler: Advantage ("+1")

Spoiler: About Even ("0")

Spoiler: Disadvantage ("-1")

Spoiler: Pretty Hard ("-2")

Aww, you think is good. That warms my heart.

And makes me chuckle a bit tbh.

 

[Wintermelon43]

[Pretty Easy]

This would explain a lot about Esam's tier list.

Aww, you think is good. That warms my heart.

And makes me chuckle a bit tbh.

And also. But not

 

[Nu~]

IMO (this is only for "good" characters which are arbitrarily selected by me ):

Spoiler: Pretty Easy ("+2")

Spoiler: Advantage ("+1")

Spoiler: About Even ("0")

Spoiler: Disadvantage ("-1")

Spoiler: Pretty Hard ("-2")

When duck hunt and ROB are good, yet pacman isn't lol.


And I would assume that pikachu has a much harder matchup with rosa.

 

[LancerStaff]

What is this simple counter play vs Corrin? I'm sure a bunch of people would like to know (I personally so I can look out for it).... Though It better not be just basic anti swordy counter play (aka try to shield all the things and get in their space).

Things like angling a shield against attacks with tippers to make them less safe or challenging the bite on DFS since it's low priority. Not some kind of grand gameplan or counterpick that'd shut him down, but stopping him from pulling things he shouldn't be able to against somebody smart.

 

[Funkermonster]

I wouldn't call MMs recovery better than Links, he has no hitboxes protecting and barely goes higher than Link while having almost no vertical recovery. Link on the other hand has a ****ing sword spinning around him or a huge tether to get him back pretty reliably. He can also bomb jump without a wall which helps

But:

• His air speed and acceleration are both significantly better than Link's
• He can out of his UpB
• Can still protect himself to an extent with Metal Blade, Lemons, or even recover high with Leaf Shield and grab the ledge. Not entirely reliable options, sure, but they do exist
• He can Wall Jump (twice!)
• If he gets meteor'd, Rush will bounce him back upwards from said meteor as long as he doesn't move (IIRC I don't believe any other character besides has this trait)

Link does score a point for being slightly heavier though, so there's that.

 

[Djent]

I thought about including . My guess there is slight advantage Pika.

I don't think is actually all that good, but (s)he's another fairly easy one.

 

[Fatmanonice]

This would explain a lot about Esam's tier list.

Which is part of the problem too because, even if they are top players, they do what most of us do and think of tier lists based on our characters and their good/bad match ups. A lot of Wii Fit players will say that Kirby is Wii Fit's worst match up but I think Pikachu is more deserving just because Kirby is so easy to counterpick and hardly anyone seriously plays Kirby anyways. The Pikachu matchup is annoying as all hell but people tend to think Kirby is worse because Kirby with Sun Salutation is 25 flavors of "**** you" to Wii Fit for a laundry list of reasons. Pikachu sports a better recovery and better edgeguarding tools so most of Wii Fit's best tools evaporate if Pikachu goes full blown defensive.

 

[Das Koopa]

i also don't think is good

Interestingly I don't disagree toooo much with ESAM's list having listened to the whole video outside of some silly things like DHD or WFT. He seemed sound in a lot of his reasoning, and it's refreshing a top player recognizes Palutena isn't bottom 10/15.

 

[meticulousboy]

Can someone give me the tl;dr of what's been discussed since last night?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Can someone give me the tl;dr of what's been discussed since last night?

Oh boy....,,

Mostly ZeRo, Esam, and some other guy's tier list, Pikachu, Link, Mega Man, and top tier matchup spreads.

 

[TurboLink]

I have done this, it doesn't seem to make him any better. Like I suppose he could maybe be just a little above bottom 10 (like 12) in theory but defitenly not any better. His frame data, matchup spread, recovery (kinda), certain moves, and mobility are all pretty bad. I probably forgot something in there too.

Also you forget about my hatred for Marth

It sounds like you're ignoring all of the character's strengths. Anyone can look bad that way.

 

[ARGHETH]

Things like angling a shield against attacks with tippers to make them less safe or challenging the bite on DFS since it's low priority. Not some kind of grand gameplan or counterpick that'd shut him down, but stopping him from pulling things he shouldn't be able to against somebody smart.

Congrats. That's four moves. What about the rest of his gameplan?
(DFS, DL, Fsmash, and back part of Dsmash. Jab and Usmash also have tippers, but I don't think shields really help there).

 

[TDK]

Alright, here's what I've gotten. watched a ton of videos over the day.

Uppter Top Tier:
Lower Top Tier:
Upper High tier:
Lower High Tier:
Upper Mid Tier: ( / )
Middle Mid Tier:
Lower Mid Tier:
Low Tier:
Bottom tier:
Negligible tier:

Just my thoughts. I'm not sure how to elaborate on this, and this is mostly loose speculation. Please correct it, it's probably ridiculous.

 

[Furret24]

Alright, here's what I've gotten. watched a ton of videos over the day.

Uppter Top Tier:
Lower Top Tier:
Upper High tier:
Lower High Tier:
Upper Mid Tier: ( / )
Middle Mid Tier:
Lower Mid Tier:
Low Tier:
Bottom tier:
Negligible tier:

Just my thoughts. I'm not sure how to elaborate on this, and this is mostly loose speculation. Please correct it, it's probably ridiculous.

Your position Lucas is downright laughable.

Some other really puzzling positions would be G&W, Charizard, Bayonetta, Palutena, Meta Knight, Bowser, and Samus.

 

[|RK|]

Why do we keep putting Diddy above Cloud? Can anyone explain?

Which is part of the problem too because, even if they are top players, they do what most of us do and think of tier lists based on our characters and their good/bad match ups. A lot of Wii Fit players will say that Kirby is Wii Fit's worst match up but I think Pikachu is more deserving just because Kirby is so easy to counterpick and hardly anyone seriously plays Kirby anyways. The Pikachu matchup is annoying as all hell but people tend to think Kirby is worse because Kirby with Sun Salutation is 25 flavors of "**** you" to Wii Fit for a laundry list of reasons. Pikachu sports a better recovery and better edgeguarding tools so most of Wii Fit's best tools evaporate if Pikachu goes full blown defensive.

Neither of the reasons listed (Kirby is easy to counter pick and no one seriously plays Kirby) has anything to do with how bad of a matchup he is for WFT...

 

[Nu~]

I thought about including . My guess there is slight advantage Pika.

I don't think is actually all that good, but (s)he's another fairly easy one.

https://youtu.be/VJn6tCxu-qg

I think the matchup is closer to even or our favor.
Pikachu struggles to stay in on us with the gross combination of Nair(combo breaker and QA escape button), trampoline (good OoS move against foes with bad range) and hydrant (anti juggle/safe approach tool)

It's a chore for pikachu to get in in the first place since we have so many walling hitboxes. Having bad airspeed also sucks when pacman forces you to take to the skies to get around most of his junk. Even though pikachu is small, our main combo starters (galaxian, any z drop, Nair) work just as well against him and his light weight means that Fair -> key or Bell -> whatever will kill super early.

Pikachu's saving grace is the fact that he still does a high deal of damage when he gets in and he destroy's our recovery pretty easily if we lose our jump.

 

[BunbUn129]

Can we ban people for posting tier lists without bothering to give even a semblance of an explanation for their absurd placements?

 

[my_T]

Anybody ever thought that certain players might be carrying certain characters?

Is this outside the realm of possibility?

 

[meticulousboy]

Alright, here's what I've gotten. watched a ton of videos over the day.

Uppter Top Tier:
Lower Top Tier:
Upper High tier:
Lower High Tier:
Upper Mid Tier: ( / )
Middle Mid Tier:
Lower Mid Tier:
Low Tier:
Bottom tier:
Negligible tier:

Just my thoughts. I'm not sure how to elaborate on this, and this is mostly loose speculation. Please correct it, it's probably ridiculous.

When this thread was first made, Roy was higher than and . Now he's lower than both of them?! I have always seen more reward with Roy's sweetspots than Marth's.

Also, I don't see Yoshi anywhere on your list.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Mario over sheik and fox?

Nah

EDIT: oh and I would like to say I hate everything pertaining to players and characters carrying each other. Some characters are easier to do good with than others and players don't "carry" characters (how would someone push a character behind their potential?), they just get closer to playing more optimal, or they just play better than the other person. If some godly WFT or GnW main destroy K9bruce or destroy VoiD or something (wouldn't that just shake things up...), they could be MU inexperience, player exhaustion, or the player just playing better than their opponent. Has nothing to do with the player carrying the character beyond their potential or something.

 

[Hero_2_All]

Things like angling a shield against attacks with tippers to make them less safe or challenging the bite on DFS since it's low priority. Not some kind of grand gameplan or counterpick that'd shut him down, but stopping him from pulling things he shouldn't be able to against somebody smart.

The angle shielding idea is not bad if this was marth sadly though corrin's tipper hit boxes are massive by comparison, with half the lance tippering with a shield advantage of -21 frames (with drop). About 1/3 of the f-smash lance does 16 dmg and about 1/6th of it does 15 dmg, both have the same shield stun. A good indicator of Corrin's tipper range is that it won't tipper within the range of Corrin's f-tilt, if its outside that range she will tipper. Needless to say though Angling in your shield will almost never put your shield into non tipper range if your body is in tipper range. For the uncharged shot into bite if you shield the shot just roll in behind Corrin to punish the bite if they charge it. Trying to challenge it requires shield drop and start up frames, its better not to risk it. The real fear of the bite comes from that uncharged shot into charged bite is that its frame 15, kills around 70/80, can be b reversed, covers allot of ledge options, and when going from air to ground does not cancel it. Not something you want to through out in nuetral, but as a surprise kill option it can be scary ( a justice knee with more range and can be on the ground basically). Either of those facts I gave does not hurt Corrin much at all.

 

[BunbUn129]

Roy's sweestpots aren't more rewarding than Marth's, not after 1.1.4 improved Marth's damage output. Roy's sweestpots feel stronger because they have higher hitlag multipliers.

You can look on Kurogane Hammer and compare their damage outputs. The hitboxes on Marth's fair, up air, and bair all deal more damage than Roy's equivalents, for example. In fact, the sourspot of Marth's up air does 9.5%, more than the sweetspot of Roy's (9%). Roy's up tilt and forward tilt are stronger, at least.

 

[TDK]

Your position Lucas is downright laughable.

Some other really puzzling positions would be G&W, Charizard, Bayonetta, Palutena, Meta Knight, Bowser, and Samus.

Too high? Too low? I can't explain if you don't give me something to work with.

When this thread was first made, Roy was higher than and . Now he's lower than both of them?! I have always seen more reward with Roy's sweetspots than Marth's.

Also, I don't see Yoshi anywhere on your list.

It's really the ease of sweetspots that marth gets or the lack of sourspots on Lucina's sword. Roy's disadvantage state is probably the worst in the game, and his recovery is nearly there too. Roy functions like a Melee character, but that really backfires on him.

And I completely forgot about Yoshi. Fixed.

 

[Mario766]

I think I should stop coming to this thread.

Every list triggers me.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Too high? Too low? I can't explain if you don't give me something to work with.


It's really the ease of sweetspots that marth gets or the lack of sourspots on Lucina's sword. Roy's disadvantage state is probably the worst in the game, and his recovery is nearly there too. Roy functions like a Melee character, but that really backfires on him.

And I completely forgot about Yoshi. Fixed.

Defitenly too low. Lucas has great aierals, a great combo throw into them, also many more great combos, TWO great kill throws and great kill power on many other moves, good spacing with pk fire, ability to heal from certain moves, great footstool combos, great down smash with a hitbox BEHIND him, and probably even more stuff I'm forgetting. He would probably be top 30, maybe even better, if it weren't for his lack of results.

Lucas + Ness is a great co-main combo too and WHY more people don't do this surprises me.

Edit:Also I think you may have rushed your Yoshi placement because that is way too low.

 

[L9999]

2ggMexico Sage is Tomorrow so I'm going to give a quick rundown on the notable players.

Spoiler: Notables

TSM ZeRo
Larry Lurr
VOID
Zinoto
Falln
K9Bruce
MRConcon
Zenyou
THE WALL
Aarvark
CLG Keitaro
Aphro
Xzax
Nicko
Hyuga
Zan
TLTC
Phoenix
JonnyWestside
VEN
Z
Draquaza
MEME
IC

So many characters here that I want them to do well so people can shut up about their theory ()

And to Kirby talk, is being a counterpick character all he is good for? The only reason he show up in this lists of notables and top 16s is because he is a secondary. And most of those secondaries lose anyways.

snip

I thought that rule was up already.

snip.

It was pure hype. Roy has an exploitable recovery and bad disadvantage.

 

[meticulousboy]

Roy's up tilt and forward tilt are stronger, at least.

That up tilt from Roy is actually why I see him higher up on the list. Should I read a roll coming my way, I can use an up tilt and KO my opponent because the sweetspot can only connect on a grounded opponent.

 

[sedrf]

Tbh we can't have a clear consensus on placements and all that happen for like pass couple weeks is people posting tier list and people getting nitpicky over something being to how and blatant favoritism of certain characters. Also it's a good idea to way theory and results.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Rating characters based on their "hidden potential" while rating other characters based on their "potential stagnation" is such a massive contradiction and logical fallacy that it baffles me.

Character x is high because they have room to grow and develop, but character y is going to go down because they have peaked? What?

Not only are you giving character x an extremely generous prediction by actually assuming that they will grow (real talk, no one here ever mentions how absurd this is), but you're giving them the benefit of the doubt that this new strategy/tech/gameplan won't have counterplay developed even if it does catch on? All while assuming that character y will go down strictly because of predicted counterplay development?

Meta-analytical double standards of this magnitude are the kinds of things you tend to hear from low-level players or character-biased forum dwellers, and it disappoints me that we're seeing this kind of logic from our best player.

 

[meticulousboy]

Rating characters based on their "hidden potential" while rating other characters based on their "potential stagnation" is such a massive contradiction and logical fallacy that it baffles me.

Character x is high because they have room to grow and develop, but character y is going to go down because they have peaked? What?

Not only are you giving character x an extremely generous prediction by actually assuming that they will grow (real talk, no one here ever mentions how absurd this is), but you're giving them the benefit of the doubt that this new strategy/tech/gameplan won't have counterplay developed even if it does catch on? All while assuming that character y will go down strictly because of predicted counterplay development?

Meta-analytical double standards of this magnitude are the kinds of things you tend to hear from low-level players or character-biased forum dwellers, and it disappoints me that we're seeing this kind of logic from our best player.

All the more reason to analyze the matchup spreads for all characters, not exclusively top tiers. A chain is as strong as its weakest link, and so is the Smash meta. Even a bottom tier contributes to the meta in ways we don't see often.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

All the more reason to analyze the matchup spreads for all characters, not exclusively top tiers. A chain is as strong as its weakest link, and so is the Smash meta. Even a bottom tier contributes to the meta in ways we don't see often.

Not to be rude or anything, but I don't see what lower-tier matchups have to do with me criticizing the concept of theorycraft in tier lists.

 

[C0rvus]

Tier list discussion gets rather little distance, because it quickly dissolves into list posting and a slew of posts going "character x is way too low. r u dumb?" and then not much else. I don't think this thread can make much of a consensus outside of maybe top and high tier, but individual placements be damned. It's too hard to call shots like that, but hey, maybe that won't be the case for long, because lots of results are coming soon.

It's the Summer of Smash, ladies and gentlemen. Tourneys so stacked you can't see the top from the ground you're standing on. Results so thick they put Bayonetta to shame. I'm hyped. It's that time of year where theories have a chance to be proven and the community gets hype. Will we see some standout results? From who? What characters will rise up and shatter expectations and who will be left in the dirt?

Hoping to see some top level Corrin, so we can make a judgement call on that character. So much back and forth, but so far nothing impressive. Ryu might make it big this summer, with Trela exploding out of the gate like the anime protagonist he is. Everyone might start trying to get him nerfed. Sheik may be overrated, Mega Man might not. I have no idea. Makes me wish I was a high level player, making a mark

Maybe next year.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Are people back to seeing as the bottom of bottom tier?

I mean, his buffs haven't dissipated. He's high low at worst.

He actually has the results of a high low tier as he shows up in placings from time to time like or

Unlike say... or who don't show up very often at all.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd like to figure out Roy.

He has the disjoint of a swordsman, but awkward shield safety. Dtilt sweetspot being so strong pushes people out of OoS option range usually, and is + on shield drop. Unlike other swordsmen, whom you try to get in on to reduce their safety... Roy is safer there than most characters. NAir/FAir>jab is a decent frame trap on non-OoS options (FAir/NAir2 being +2 after shield drop and jab being f5 catches anything slower than f3 or f10 OoS perfectly). Edit: Similar to dtilt... which is a natural frame trap when spammed which makes it annoying, especially for lower level players who don't understand rolling behind Roy can lead to fsmash.

Yes, the reward on sourspots is eh, but I've also heard (not experienced or seen outside of training mode) Roy can lead into sweetspots from sourspots. Also, if not, he still gets a hit and has the speed to chase down escapes/sliding usmash to catch landings.

"DI away and jump" is how to get away from his grab strings, but now you need to land with no jump...

These are strong positive attributes. Many people like to talk of his downfalls, and that's what I exploit when I play againsy him, but I find his strengths to be difficult to play around at times.

 

[warionumbah2]

Roy's sweestpots aren't more rewarding than Marth's, not after 1.1.4 improved Marth's damage output. Roy's sweestpots feel stronger because they have higher hitlag multipliers.

You shouldn't look at the %s each move deals on its own, instead look at how much his combo's deal. Serge carried Leo from 1-10% to 97% off 3 or 4 conversions.

 

[Jams.]

Are people back to seeing as the bottom of bottom tier?

I mean, his buffs haven't dissipated. He's high low at worst.

He actually has the results of a high low tier as he shows up in placings from time to time like or

Unlike say... or who don't show up very often at all.

Which characters would you say are worse than Charizard? I don't think the list is that long; certainly not long enough to put him in mid tier.

I haven't seen Charizard show up in many results, certainly not with the same frequency as DDD. Bowser Jr has been fairly absent recently, but what Tweek (and even his other mains) have done over the course of the game's lifespan far surpasses Charizard's achievements. The one thing I recall recently was ANTi losing to a Charizard/Bowser player named Angis at a BC local, which is a bright spot for the character but seemed like an isolated occurrence.

The Charizard with the best results by far is still Trela, who dropped him forever ago and could literally win locals with anyone (like week 1 Bidou Shulk, release Mewtwo, 1111 medium Swordfighter, etc.). Draquaza was the only player from ZeRo's "Best Player of Each Character" series that I didn't recognize. No offense to him since I'm sure he could bop me, but I think these points speak volumes about how little representation and exposure Charizard really has.

 

[xIvan321]

I wouldn't call MMs recovery better than Links, he has no hitboxes protecting and barely goes higher than Link while having almost no vertical recovery. Link on the other hand has a ****ing sword spinning around him or a huge tether to get him back pretty reliably. He can also bomb jump without a wall which helps

You don't need to have a hitbox to have a good recovery. What you don't factor in is Mega Man's air speed and acceleration he has versus Link. Link while he can sorta hold his jump with a bomb in his hand, Mega Man can do it without relying on self harm. Not only that but the fact that he can recover higher as a mix up.

The fact that Mega Man has air speed makes all the difference horizontally since having that you can sometimes rely on opponent's committing to an edge guard and getting a phantom footstool. Sometimes Link's up b misses the ledge snap, and suffers an insane amount of lag whereas Mega Man could land with nair and its a tad tricky to punish thanks to his mobility.

But when it comes down to it, tethering is actually better, but is a bit predictable.