Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Fatmanonice]

I see that almost every top/high tiers have something to get out from a disavantage states or their disaventage states are almost inexistant. But what about and?

Cloud seem to have one of the biggest disaventage state but I guess that the limit trump card save him.

but Ness? He have one combo breaker with his N-air but his recovery option are pretty limited.

Cloud's disadvantage state isn't that bad at all because he can easily counter players that come after him. From below, nair, dair, and climhazzard (rising and falling) are very reliable. He easily challenges other characters aerials too with these options along with his limit options. Cross slash and blade beam (both versions) can be used as air stalls and manipulate aerial movement to a degree too while limit climhazzard can be used to recover high or simply outprioritize most aerials if need be. Add to this Cloud's excellent aerial mobility and, like Mario, he's only in really bad spot with his second jump gone and no limit on bigger stages like FD or Lylat.

As for Ness, he has a really good air dodge, an air stall (PSI magnet), the ability to cover his landing to the ledge with PK thunder, the ability to regain his recovery if he bounces off walls, and really good fast falled nair and uair.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Thanks for your support guys. Also.Neokan Party Smash GG isn't updated because Smash GG did goes down at some moment. So we have to use old method like good old Paper and Ink.

Also. I don't know if you've saw my other post about Roy. But i never talked about his MU that much because well. I didn't really had any experience and i don't want to talk about thing i don't know jack ****.

But i guess i can breakdown and give my 2cent into some MU i was able to play with experienced and PowerRanked player during the Neokan Party whenever it was during set or just friendlies with them since we had a lot of time Thanks to PM,Rival of Aether and Melee.
I'll try to be objective. But i guess i can be a little optimist. This is my two cent that worth nothing. Roy main might even correct me saying i'm wrong. And i can be wrong.

Let's Begin.

Oh. and in advence. Sorry for my english.

VS :
Little Breakdown: A reaaaaaaallly Hard MU. Peach will overflow and block any of Roy's approach. You have to play really carefully against Peach. Roy being a combo fooder don't help at all. And then we have Turnip. A.K.A Vegetable of Mass Destruction that Gimp Roy really easily.
Result of the MU : 60:40 /65:35 for Peach.

VS:
Little Breakdown: This is Hell. This is truly Hell. YOU CAN'T and i mean it. YOU CAN'T miss your neutral and approach against him. Roy being a fastfaller, Not the biggest recovery it's perfect for Ryu and his Up-tilt lock, his fast frame data, true shoryu... This is Hell for Roy. You will need to play carefully.
Result of the MU: 65:35/70:30 for Ryu

VS
Little Breakdown: Okay. This is strange. Like really strange. This MU isn't horrible at all. Roy can overflow Cloud. Thanks to his speed,juggle game And N-air breaking his projectile ( And a lot of projectile by the way.) He won't let him charge his Limit. And the moment Cloud will get his Limit is most likely the moment he will be already off-stage. Still. You don't need to underestimate Cloud. His Neutral game is still fantastic. But the moment Roy touch him his adventage state against Cloud is really big and he can kill him Really early.
Result of the MU: 50:50/55:45 For Roy

VS ( Also Vs:)
Little BreakDown: I know i shoudn't get on the heavies are bad bandwagon. And DK is FAAAAAR from bad. But here, Roy shine soo much i need to wear sunglasse bro. Roy advantage state is magnificent in this MU, The juggle game is soo strong that you can almost finish a stock without letting DK getting back into the stage. Just play safe and clean against their range and raw power and you'll get it.
Result of the MU: 60:45 For Roy

VS
Little BreakDown: Maybe my favorite MU to play. Not because Roy is better or anyting. Just because i love how this MU Goes. Lucario will get really fast his Aura thanks to Roy racking up Damage reallt fast. And then suddently begin the game of who will do the first mistake? Roy can kill early and Lucario can too thanks to Aura+Rage.
Result of the MU: 50:50

VS
Little Breakdown: This MU is from my experience hard for Roy since Shulk have a better overal range and great option thanks to his Monado. But it's still possible to Roy to win.
Result of the MU:55:45/ 60:40 for Shulk


Thus are the MU where i think i have a good idea. Since i played a lot of people who played those character or just played a lot of set against the same people. Of course i might be wrong. It's only my idea about those.

Not trying to crush your dreams, but we're not really relevant in a continent that already struggles to be relevant, i know how it feels to go to tournaments & all, but in your case, it's not that big of a deal, still, good luck for Top 64.
Anyway, let's get to the fun part: matchups.

The biggest issue i have with your rating of some matchups is that you seem to either ignore neutral or your idea of X Character's neutral is kind of flawed. The Cloud matchup is the biggest example of this:
- Cloud's neutral b never played a big part of his neutral, it is a mixup at the very best
- Courtesy of the multiple ways of cancelling Limit into basically anything, good Cloud players won't have much trouble charging Limit bit by bit, even against the fastest of rushdown characters. And i'm not taking into account Stage dependant limit charge ( Charging Limit on Duck Hunt's Tree & Smashville's platforms are the biggest case of that ).
- While Cloud's disadvantage state isn't good for sure, Roy's isn't good at all either, and you'll likely get as exploited by the likes of UpAir juggles, reverse Nair edgeguards & most combos in Cloud's arsenal given that Roy is among the biggest combo fodder in the entire cast once he gets you to this state, which brings me to the point of Neutral Game.
- Cloud's overall much stronger autocancels, frame data & safety may allow him to strike before Roy does, and this is a key part of the matchup: Their tools in neutral will play an important part, and as i just mentionned, Cloud's neutral tools are unarguably stronger than Roy's, ultimately leading into him getting the edge over Roy more often.

While i'm not a Roy specialist by any means, i'd probably say this matchup is closer to 6/4, but i may be wrong, i'm just sharing my own thoughts because it didn't feel right to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I was curious. I didn't think it would be considered to be that bad.

go in-depth sir.

lets educate each other and stuff.

or go back to talking about Greninja. w/e works

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

So...

I made a matchup sheet for Charizard...

I saw it on a Bowser MU chart, I saw it on a DK MU chart, I saw an Ganondorf main opinion, I saw it now on a Charizard MU chart.
What is up with heavyweight mains thinking they straight-out turn Puff off? It's not like she can combo them. It's not like they're gimped easily by her. It's not like she can evade them well. It's not like her OoS game is good enough to punish stuff. It's not like they have amazingly big frames, making them good Rest targets. It's not like Puff can just abuse her air-speed to play slowly against Charizard. It's not like good Puffs won't only approach with random aerials, because they KNOW they're playing as the lightest character in the game against one of the heaviest. If we're going by that, then Puff loses to every heavyweight on every other game. While I'm not saying she wins the MU, it's way closer than 99% of the Sm4sh boards (and Reddit) think. Many of her matchups are actually good, while not necessarily advantageous to her.
I don't normally discuss matchups because I know my characters are not these secret high-tiers or anything (except for Ness lol), but there is such a circlejerk around Puff that I feel like telling people what is true and what is not for the character. I know people are going to trash on me, because, well, Puff is garbo, right? She has nothing, after all.
Please stop jumping to conclusions just because a character is the worst, please.

 

[Y2Kay]

C3PO lost to a main named RIN

one thing to note is that RIN never tried to use banana against C3PO. He always opted to get a bomb instead of stealing the banana.

 

[Das Koopa]

C3PO lost to a main named RIN

one thing to note is that RIN never tried to use banana against C3PO. He always opted to get a bomb instead of stealing the banana.

http://oddshot.tv/shot/events2compete-2016050105224639

Rich Brown and Abadango both making it into Top 8 would mean 2 Mewtwos at a regional in top 8 :O

 

[Wintermelon43]

C3PO lost to a main named RIN

one thing to note is that RIN never tried to use banana against C3PO. He always opted to get a bomb instead of stealing the banana.

Great, exactly what we need when Link is already criminally overrated enough as is. He's garbage. He just has good players. And aganist the few representors from my state too...

Is this the only upset so far, or has anyone else been upsetted?

And has this person ever gotten other results?

 

[FullMoon]

C3PO lost to a main named RIN

one thing to note is that RIN never tried to use banana against C3PO. He always opted to get a bomb instead of stealing the banana.

Well Mr.R says Link is underrated and this happens lol

 

[Y2Kay]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/events2compete-2016050105224639

Rich Brown and Abadango both making it into Top 8 would mean 2 Mewtwos at a regional in top 8 :O

Yeah if that happened it would be awesome.

But if istudying and Abadango fight my soul will literally rip in two.

Who the heck would I root for? I am in a true moral dilemma right now!

 

[Deleted member]

Great, exactly what we need when Link is already criminally overrated enough as is. He's garbage. He just has good players. And aganist the few representors from my state too...

Is this the only upset so far, or has anyone else been upsetted?

And has this person ever gotten other results?

Is there any post you make where your anti-Link bias isn't highly obvious? Don't shut down an upset just because it's from a character you view poorly. Considering most people see him as a low tier character I fail to see how he's overrated like you say. Calling him "garbage" isn't a very thoughtful or educated thing to say either in this thread, especially when there are Link players in this thread that'd gladly prove you wrong. That's not a competitive impression, it's being narrow-minded.

 

[Y2Kay]

Great, exactly what we need when Link is already criminally overrated enough as is. He's garbage. He just has good players. And aganist the few representors from my state too...

Is this the only upset so far, or has anyone else been upsetted?

And has this person ever gotten other results?

This is the only upset I know of.

RIN is from Illinois or Michigan, and is not power ranked

 

[Wintermelon43]

Is there any post you make where your anti-Link bias isn't highly obvious? Don't shut down an upset just because it's from a character you view poorly. Considering most people see him as a low tier character I fail to see how he's overrated like you say. Calling him "garbage" isn't a very thoughtful or educated thing to say either, especially when there are Link players in this thread that'd gladly prove you wrong.

"Shut down an upset" what, do you mean I'm saying RIN got lucky aganist him? Because there's a low chance that happened, chances are either C-3PO has little matchup experience, RIN is just really good and we don't know, etc. Luck wins rarely happen.

Also, most people don't think Link is low tier sadly. Most people don't understand how terrible his flaws are (If you want explanations I can do this), and just place him in like 35-40th or so cause of salt, main bias, or just simple lack of understanding about his flaws. And before you say "35th-40th IS low tier", I'm basing this off of the wording I see used. And then where they say he belongs. So I'm not sure how that proves why he isn't overrated.

This is the only upset I know of.

RIN is from Illinois or Michigan, and is not power ranked

Huh, then this is very interesting. Was the match streamed?

 

[Y2Kay]

"Shut down an upset" what, do you mean I'm saying RIN got lucky aganist him? Because there's a low chance that happened, chances are either C-3PO has little matchup experience, RIN is just really good and we don't know, etc. Luck wins rarely happen.

Also, most people don't think Link is low tier sadly. Most people don't understand how terrible his flaws are (If you want explanations I can do this), and just place him in like 35-40th or so cause of salt, main bias, or just simple lack of understanding about his flaws. And before you say "35th-40th IS low tier", I'm basing this off of the wording I see used. And then where they say he belongs. So I'm not sure how that proves why he isn't overrated.


Huh, then this is very interesting. Was the match streamed?

Yeah it was stream.

He won more off of rage Jank than anything, but he's definitely a good player.

C3PO isn't a god or nothing tho

 

[Djent]

KSB is live.

 

[BananaBake]

Abadango playing right now:https://www.twitch.tv/events2compete

 

[Vyrnx]

It's not just Wintermelon's anti Link bias. Massive bias towards literally every character in one direction or another with no substantial evidence or anything that warrants consideration, just preemptive opinions from limited competitive experience going up against tourney results/etc.

I don't always follow some of the TL vs Link arguments very well. TL is a better character, but some of the stuff people say to try to, "prove," this leaves Link with a pretty bad stigma. For instance, I'm not sure where Link's bombs being worse/bad came from. They combo into kill moves same as TL's, can be zdropped onto the ground easily, he gets all the bombslide tech out of them, they clank with almost all projectiles, and their shorter fuse make them better for recovering than TL's.

But anyway, if I just list strengths and stuff I can make any character sound underrated. I don't think most people underrate Link, he tends to be placed pretty well in most tier lists IMO. He just isn't garbage and his results can attest to that.

 

[Thinkaman]

Drive-by Smashboards Top 8 Rankings Data for April:

Reminder on how data works:

• Raw number of wins is the true reflection of power, not win rate. Jigglypuff is not Cloud's equal.
  • Win rate controlled for representation... is raw wins.
• Win rate (and changes in win rate over time) merely suggest the direction wins and representation will shift, as weaker players potentially migrate from long-term low win-rate characters to high.
  • This data tends to be volatile month-to-month, so take it with a grain of salt.
  • That said, most the top 15 character win-rates were vaguely consistent in April.
• Yes, top-8 at all tourneys reported to Smashboards is not representative of top-8/16/32 international play.
  • It is also 1000x closer and 1000x more relevant to 99.999% of Smash players.

is hanging in there, and is doing remarkably well. ascended about like everyone was expecting. Everything else in the top third is business as usual.

Meanwhile had quite the fall from grace. Is the dream dead? Has ZSS been confirmed as reduced to the tragic fate of being merely a significantly-above-average-character?

is hanging out in the top half of the roster, with an above-average win-rate. It seems like for every time someone in this thread calls Ganon low/bottom-tier, someone out there is winning money with him. (And Minnesota can only have so many tournaments...)

Heavyweights in general () are doing remarkably average. trails in representation but has the highest win rate this month.

is doing shockingly decent, but where are the results??? Lucas was my biggest shock, upon seeing this data.

are doing okay for how few people play them (okay and no more), but man, no one plays these characters!

And finally, was firmly this month's biggest loser. Apparently only really bad players lost to DHD this month, like Abadango.

are still in purgatory.

 

[Y2Kay]

There's currently 3 Mewtwo's in top 64.

Abadango, Rich Brown, and everyone's fan favorite (kappa) RayNoire have made it to top 64

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Thanks for the data.

Bayonetta doing well. I wonder when Bayo's results will finally eclipse Cloud's? She's a bit harder to play but she's still the best character in the game.

ZSS still top 5, she's just really hard to play. I wanna pick her up but she hurts my hands.

Ganondorf is bad but he capitalizes on mistakes probably harder than anyone else on the roster, especially at mid level.

Zelda is trash. DI HER COMBOS GUYS. DI AWAY. ITS NOT HARD. Oh my lord so many people think she's not the worst character in the game and it hurts my soul.

Lucas should be doing better seeing as he's OP. Real talk I think he's better than Ness but people will call me crazy until someone good picks him up and starts doing well.

Bowser the GOAT

#FreeMiis

bye bits

 

[HeavyLobster]

I saw it on a Bowser MU chart, I saw it on a DK MU chart, I saw an Ganondorf main opinion, I saw it now on a Charizard MU chart.
What is up with heavyweight mains thinking they straight-out turn Puff off? It's not like she can combo them. It's not like they're gimped easily by her. It's not like she can evade them well. It's not like her OoS game is good enough to punish stuff. It's not like they have amazingly big frames, making them good Rest targets. It's not like Puff can just abuse her air-speed to play slowly against Charizard. It's not like good Puffs won't only approach with random aerials, because they KNOW they're playing as the lightest character in the game against one of the heaviest. If we're going by that, then Puff loses to every heavyweight on every other game. While I'm not saying she wins the MU, it's way closer than 99% of the Sm4sh boards (and Reddit) think. Many of her matchups are actually good, while not necessarily advantageous to her.
I don't normally discuss matchups because I know my characters are not these secret high-tiers or anything (except for Ness lol), but there is such a circlejerk around Puff that I feel like telling people what is true and what is not for the character. I know people are going to trash on me, because, well, Puff is garbo, right? She has nothing, after all.
Please stop jumping to conclusions just because a character is the worst, please.

Ganondorf actually does do well against Puff, as his anti-aerials are really good and she dies very easily. It's probably Dorf's easiest, but it's not unwinnable for Puff. It's 55-45 to 60-40 Dorf's advantage, though Puff's gimps are scary for him. He's also not that big a Rest target due to being more tall than fat, and should Puff whiff Rest Reverse Warlock Punch OHKOs her. Less confident in Bowser/Zard bodying her, as their anti-aerial tools aren't as good, at least not from the kinds of angles she likes to approach from.

 

[LancerStaff]

and namely are doing okay for how few people play them (okay and no more), but man, no one plays these characters!

To be fair you divided the Pit's results between two characters... Together the Pits are more Megaman/Robin tier then Puff/Olimar tier.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Charizard mains seem to be either really skilled or are abusing lack of matchup knowledge.

 

[Thinkaman]

To be fair you divided the Pit's results between two characters... Together the Pits are more Megaman/Robin tier then Puff/Olimar tier.

My comment was assuming you'd combine them, hence why I listed only Pit. IMO Pit has always had the poorest level of representation relative to how good he is, with the possible exception of Peach.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Charizard mains seem to be either really skilled or are abusing lack of matchup knowledge.

That can be said for quite a few characters in this game, especially since rage exists.

 

[Nu~]

Thanks for the data.



Lucas should be doing better seeing as he's OP. Real talk I think he's better than Ness but people will call me crazy until someone good picks him up and starts doing well.

bye bits

Please explain this.
I don't agree or disagree, I'm just highly curious.

 

[Thinkaman]

Oh yeah, proposal for a new Red Topic: Talking about people talking about Greninja.

 

[Smog Frog]

UPSET ALERT

abadango to losers after losing 1-2 to darkshad

 

[Das Koopa]

Abadango loses 1-2 to Darkshad

 

[Y2Kay]

Istudying is gonna play Tyroy next.


Abadango apparently hasn't been dealing with th jet lag well? The commentators were saying that he wasn't playing on point and was sleeping in his chair between sets.

 

[Smog Frog]

next up on stream: tyroy vs istudying . i've heard that (along with ) are some of potentially losing mus.

 

[Y2Kay]

I was thinking the whole entire game one, "Why is iStudying not using SSHC right?" Only to realize he was pulling a trick on Tyroy.

Dang son, he just played himself!

If you wanna pick up Greninja, I'll give you free advice

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Please explain this.
I don't agree or disagree, I'm just highly curious.

Better projectile, safer aerials, better recovery, better ground moves

The only thing he's missing is ebola bthrow and Ness's uair being absurd.

Also speaking of greninja, greninja loses to Bayo, she just has to combo him differently to everyone else.

 

[Reapers]

Man, that was intense. Although I don't believe Greninja beats Bayo, I still couldn't believe Tyroy managed to beat someone as high caliber as istudying.

 

[Y2Kay]

I think istudying doesn't know how to SSHC bayo's combos right.........

His timing was way off, and on every single one.

He knows now tho

 

[Nobie]

One thing I noticed happening to iStudying repeatedly is that he would shield Witch Twist, and then roll in a direction and get hit by Bayo's divekick. Was he trying to anticipate the ABK away and Tyrol just outsmarted him, or would he have been better served by dash shielding instead?

 

[Scrubtorights]

Something I would like to point out that everytime Istudy jumped under witch twist she punish it with ABK if I am correct. That means that everytime WT is done staying in shield is needed. But then ABK will hit shield and you can't punish it. The more you know.

 

[Illusion.]

This set is proof that Shadow Sneak doesn't equate to beating This MU isn't favorable nor even for .

I hope people stop saying that.

 

[Y2Kay]

This set is proof that Shadow Sneak doesn't equate to beating This MU isn't favorable nor even for .

I hope people stop saying that.

Did you see the match? Istudying wasn't even really doing it right.

He kept trying to SS in between WT and Side b, leading him to take more damage than he should have.

I don't think this is a good representation of the MU IMO.

 

[Appledees]

Bayo still doesn't really care about Sneak Sneak that much lol

Bayos who are unfamiliar with Greninja SSHC are gonna get bodied at first but then they understand how to mix up their combos/setups and still overwhelm Greninja with her options in the advantage

 

[Y2Kay]

Rich Brown vs Abadango In losers right now