Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nidtendofreak]

Yeah, this is true. I may be coming from a place of bias but I think Ike is one of the most balanced characters in the game - he can easily lose his winning matchups and easily win his losing matchups.

Which is why figuring out his MUs is such a nightmare!

 

[juddy96]

Ganon is one matchup where I think people overestimate their character's advantage by assuming virtually no error on one side. When watching Pon on SHI-G streams, I notice a number of people in chat saying "this is so bad for Ganon," only for Pon to land 4-5 hits and take the stock. Sure, everyone already knows he can do this, but that doesn't stop people from forgetting it. We tend to have higher performance standards for the characters we main (sometimes unrealistically so), and this is what gets mentally compared to a hypothetical punching bag Ganon.

That's just Ganon (and Japan) for you. Pon looked amazing last tournament... and still got 65th.

 

[FullMoon]

Zelda seems to be doing pretty well all of sudden, that's cool

 

[adom4]

If I had to choose one 60:40 MU in favor of Ike, it'd be Ganon. And even then, Ike doesn't really stomp on Ganon super hard, at least in my experience.

I think it was around 6-4 prepatch but the jab & dash attack buffs helped Ganon, i think it's 55-45 personally.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm actually kinda curious about how a Ganondorf MU spread would look like if only because everybody seems to think they beat Ganon so having a more informed chart would be interesting.

 

[adom4]

I'm actually kinda curious about how a Ganondorf MU spread would look like if only because everybody seems to think they beat Ganon so having a more informed chart would be interesting.

Here it is:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Seriously though i'm not really confident in creating a MU chart yet, i still need more exp to see how his recent buffs affected some MUs.

 

[Y2Kay]

Here it is:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Seriously though i'm not really confident in creating a MU chart yet, i still need more exp to see how his recent buffs affected some MUs.

I'm more concerned about those other tabs >_>

 

[Megamang]

Zelda is pretty scary. Dtilt uair is a kill confirm, her throw game is good and her grab range is insanity. She can do stuff like nair -> dtilt -> uair and it hurts. Hell, her uair is a freaking explosion. Lots of characters would love that. Then you have her smashes which are strong and safe, especially fsmash. Her ftilt is like some character's smashes. Her jab is really really safe unless you stuff it. Stuffing her is your best bet probably, but you have to be careful because Up B can kill you for no reason. Reflector... and a bad projectile. Down B can do stuff at the ledge and offstage. It can also screw you over if you hit it, a la Luma.


Thats just the newish stuff, then there is the old 'if she lands lightning kicks you are suddenly losing' that has been hitting us since melee. With a little buff here and there, she is actually pretty good at throwing ridiculously powerful spells your way, mixing in confirms that are safe to throw out (High tier trait!) and... stalemating in neutral. I won't call it forcing an approach. But its something. Din's is actually a little scary offstage, but it still has the base flaw of its horizontal movement being locked, which means time an airdodge to stuff her. If she could cancel the animation of Din's at the cost of canceling the hitbox, she'd have some knarly fakeouts. Right now though, you just watch her and react.

A killing teleport is a freakin sweet button too. She can see you commit to anything at a distance and hit the hell out of you. This punishes all the brawl vets who are spamming fair when they get hit lol.

Also, in case anyone missed it, she can land a frame-synced/perfect landing/frame canceled fair into teleport for an offstage confirm at like 30%. It kills her though.

And... now she is heavier than shiek lol.

Also, FullMoon ... All mu's say 'neutral is hard, but in a few reads...'

The fundamental problem with ganon having the recovery he does, is it means he is always a few reads away from dying. Fair is fair I guess, but then you kinda lose the benefit of the power. He is damn scary at Smashville though.

 

[FullMoon]

Here it is:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Seriously though i'm not really confident in creating a MU chart yet, i still need more exp to see how his recent buffs affected some MUs.

I thought Bayonetta was 8:2 in her favor

Also why the hell were you looking for Sakurai's address? Lol

 

[AxelVDP]

tbh I think that Mac loses the Ike matchup like 60:40
the best and easiest way to win against a Little Mac is by edgeguarding him
in order to do this we have to look at
1) how easy it is to win neutral against Mac
2) how easy can you convert your neutral wins into an edgeguard situation
3) how strong are your edgeguarding tools (in this particular matchup)
(obviously, there's more to a matchup than this, but this stuff is pretty important)

now, in the Ike scenario
1) Mac hates big disjointed hitboxes, huge range + good autocancels = we have to respect a lot of his moves, rushing in is no good with a bad dash to shield animation, walking is fine but it gives the Ike player more time to do Ike stuff
Ike's long jumpsquat helps mitigating this to a certain extent
overall I'd say they are pretty evenly matched in this regard
2) things Ike is probably going to hit you with in neutral: dtilt, grab, nair, fair
- dtilt: comboes into fair (-> Mac is likely going offstage)
- grab: uthrow fair boys (his other throws are pretty good too, having a very low angle of trajectory)
- nair: once again, it comboes into fair
- fair: offstage you go
3) fair alone would already be pretty ****ing deadly against a recovering Mac, but it's not even the best move Ike has for edgeguarding him!!
(I'm sure most of you know, but Little Mac cannot sweetspost the ledge with his specials) (well, actually he can but only during the beginning of his moves, like Cloud with climmhazard basically)
dtilt is a quick option that can hit Mac even below the edge, tho I'm positive that on stages with slanted edges like battlefield you can clip him with upB from underneath before he can hit you, it also does not cover a "high" recovery (aka Mac sideBing above him)
eruption, same usual story but easier to hit because lol it's Little Mac, can also cover a "high" recovery attempt BUT can still be clipped with upB
FSMASH, covers high recoveries easily, hits below the ledge AND can be spaced to avoid being clipped by upB even on slanted edges, I really don't get why Ike players like Ryo never use this move when edgeguarding a Mac, it's almost literally a win button
Ike has probably the strongest edgeguarding game of all the characters in the Mac matchup O_O

extras: Mac also struggles at landing (though he at least has a few options like a counter and a fast falling speed) ESPECIALLY against characters with disjoints, and Ike is pretty decent at this stuff too

positives: Ike has the right physics+hurtbox to be susceptible against Mac's setups for big %s windows, also recovering low can be risky for Ike thanks to the great ammount of armored moves Mac can use against Aether

 

[Ninety]

...Are people here not aware of the "funny tabs on browser screencap" joke? Cause if so I got some hilarious cat pics to show you.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

It's usually just porn tabs, so this is a nice change of pace.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

I feel like the flaws in Roy's sweetspot positions get exaggerated. Yeah, Marth's arrangement is always going to be better for a sword character, which is why they tried to compensate by giving Roy such high movement specs, but Roy's also not the only character to have that setup. Mewtwo is often called a "sword character" of sorts due its tail, but if you look at the way Mewtwo's tail attacks function they're actually Roy-esque. The base of the tail is strongest, and then it gets weaker at the tip, and yet this isn't listed as a fatal flaw of Mewtwo. If M2 gets the strong hit of f-tilt, great. If not, still okay. Why is Roy's setup considered so much worse then?

(Of course I know that the difference between Mewtwo and Roy is that Mewtwo isn't ONLY a sword character, but you get what I mean.)

Mewtwos tail hitboxes aren't reallya problem for him because only 5 moves are actually affected by it and its a much larger disjoint (most attacks around the same size as Shulk's) so he can still space with it. Roy's entire moveset is affected and its still around the same range as prepatch Marth

 

[LancerStaff]

Right, my assumptions only make sense if patches continue.

Where do you think the devs. gather most of their info, BTW?

They've said that they look at for Glory data and Japanese forums... Probably closer to the Memeverse side of things then whatever the Japanese equivalent of Smashboards is. I don't think they cared about tournament results much until something caught Sakurai's attention last patch.

 

[KamikazePotato]

The fundamental problem with ganon having the recovery he does, is it means he is always a few reads away from dying. Fair is fair I guess, but then you kinda lose the benefit of the power. He is damn scary at Smashville though.

Yeah I think if Ganon's air speed and/or Up B height was increased by just a smidge he would be a lot better. His issues with neutral are vastly overstated - the fact that he has poor recovery and can be gimped mostly for free (hilarious Ganoncide out of nowhere notwithstanding) are what truly hold him back.

I'm actually kinda curious about how a Ganondorf MU spread would look like

He's really only a secondary for me, but no one else is biting, so why not...let's get some more discussion going.

Cue the many angry mains upset that someone would dare say Ganon has a winning matchup against them.

 

[Aaron1997]

Zero has released the final video

TL/DW

Trela
Mew2king/Tweek
Ryuga
9B
Dahpuffster
Trela
ROM

 

[C0rvus]

Man, high level Corrin players are rarer than you'd think considering the character's playerbase. Ryuga plays Cloud and Ike more than Corrin, doesn't he? I would also advocate for Yikarur to be best brawler simply because he is still playing, though I cannot speak for his results as I am not familiar with them.

Like, I swear we'd have different players in this list's Mii slots if the character wasn't effectively banned. 2 out of 3 are inactive mains.

Also lol @ Mewtwo losing to Ganon. Find it hard to take the character seriously, sorry to admit. Like, I always fear the character in tournament and respect his tools, but I really don't see him winning that MU. The neutral disparity and Mewtwo's advantaged state really push it out of Ganon's favor, even if he only needs like 3 hits to take a stock.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Not surprised the top 2 best Corrin players are also the top best Ike players. Ike skills easily transfer to Corrin.

Also, last I heard, Ryuga dropped Ike for Corrin, so I don't think he plays him more than her, C0rvus .

 

[ArikadoSD]

Man, high level Corrin players are rarer than you'd think considering the character's playerbase. Ryuga plays Cloud and Ike more than Corrin, doesn't he? I would also advocate for Yikarur to be best brawler simply because he is still playing, though I cannot speak for his results as I am not familiar with them.

lmao yea it's actually funny, actual solo corrin mains are pretty damn rare. none of the players who perform well in tournaments with corrin actually main her outside of CosmicCosmos (DFW area).

 

[C0rvus]

Hmmm, I wonder what makes the transition from Ike so easy? Don't they have very similar movement specs or something?

Maybe some young hidden boss will come out with a kickass Corrin soon. That'd be cool.

 

[TurboLink]

Hmmm, I wonder what makes the transition from Ike so easy? Don't they have very similar movement specs or something?

Maybe some young hidden boss will come out with a kickass Corrin soon. That'd be cool.

Maybe it's because both of their playstyles revolve around spacing?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Hmmm, I wonder what makes the transition from Ike so easy? Don't they have very similar movement specs or something?

Maybe some young hidden boss will come out with a kickass Corrin soon. That'd be cool.

Their movement specs aren't that similar, Ike is faster.

But they are both spacing heavy while using their aerials a lot. Probably what it boils down to.

 

[Yonder]

Yeah I think if Ganon's air speed and/or Up B height was increased by just a smidge he would be a lot better. His issues with neutral are vastly overstated - the fact that he has poor recovery and can be gimped mostly for free (hilarious Ganoncide out of nowhere notwithstanding) are what truly hold him back.



He's really only a secondary for me, but no one else is biting, so why not...let's get some more discussion going.

Cue the many angry mains upset that someone would dare say Ganon has a winning matchup against them.

Alright, I'll bite on why Ganondorf has the advantage on Yoshi. I can sum up a reason or two on why the other advantages listed are justified for him (even if they are low level observations like Jiggs is light, Junior doesn't kill as well, etc) but Yoshi is intriguing. How does Ganondorf deal with Yoshi's mobity, eggs, and not getting gimped offstage by fair or whatever else Yoshi chooses to use? How does Ganondorf deal with Yoshi's superior frame data and the fact that Yoshi is heavyweight too?

 

[Megamang]

Yoshi usually wrecks heavy characters. Pikachu can lead to a gimp straight from a landed quick attack, should always get the gimp offstage, has a solid projectile, and can low profile a lot of ganon's stuff with his very good dtilt. Zard... juggles him so hard, has big enough hitboxes to challenge, can gimp him hard (dsmash is low key a poor man's Eruption), has a solid projectile which destroys Ganon offstage and puts in work in neutral (getting him to wizkick more is a win anyways)

Y Yonder beat me to it. Eggs... eggs eggs eggs! And, again, gimping. I would imagine Ganon has trouble with egg -> aerial, and dair/fair in general.

I bring up gimping so frequently because it basically nullifies ganon's advantage; if you are killing him consistently from a hit or two in neutral, what does he have? To speak to the versatility of his kit (or lack therof), when does he have anything novel in a MU? His hitboxes usually can win head to head, he is slower, he has to approach, and... he hits freakin hard. Like, he can hit Yoshi out of super armor, and fair kills pikachu super super early... but is ganon going to get these fabled reads back to back, more often than just being destroyed offstage.


Speaking of the reads = death truth we have accepted... What kind of sequence does Ganon have that can actually end your stocks from a few reads, if you are aware of your options (teching, jumping away, airdodging)? Because I feel like i can always escape. I think Ganon wins most of his games more on his amazing trading ability, more than reads. And, while you can make a read to make a trade, it feels like someone playing very abusively against Ganon isn't going to be jumping in so much as just forcing the issue with projectiles/disjoint/dashgrabs.

 

[Empyrean]

Corrin doesn't have many solo mains because no high/top level player had an actual reason to completely drop their previous main in her favor. Despite her strengths, she doesn't outright invalidate any of the swordies or other characters above and below her. Now if the other FE characters hadn't been heavily buffed throughout the patches, the situation might have been more similar to what we saw with Cloud and Bayo.

Ryuga is the only high-level player I know of who apparently solo mains Corrin now, and I haven't seen/heard much from him since Landlocked a while ago, soooo...yeah. Otherwise, there are a few Corrins with decent success on a more local scale like CosmicCosmos and Biggad, and that's about it.

 

[wedl!!]

You're going to have to elaborate on how Ganondorf has an even matchup with Ryu.

Ryu is Ganon on steroids.

 

[Trifroze]

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the cast does beat Ganondorf 7-3. He's a character with clear weaknesses as well as clear strengths, but unfortunately he's also a case where those weaknesses can outright prevent him from utilizing the strengths that he has for as long as his opponent doesn't make a considerable mistake or take an unnecessary risk (i.e. his strength is hitting heavy and killing early, but he can be consistently denied in landing those hits). The higher the level of play, the less his opponents will make mistakes, but it will happen sometimes and the pressure is always on Ganondorf's opponent who needs to play on point to not die in three or four exchanges.

That said Ganondorf's neutral isn't so bad that this is the case in every matchup, just the ones where the opponent has a good enough neutral to shut Ganondorf down (or a combination of strong enough gamestates to beat him overall just as effectively).

Also on lower levels of play exploiting and abusing the correct things consistently is not realistic for either player and in these cases Ganondorf needs to put a lot less effort into winning the match. 7-3 on high level can be 3-7 on low level.

In the end though it's important to notice which characters have weaknesses that diminish their strengths and which characters have strengths that diminish their weaknesses. I think ESAM for instance sees Pikachu in the latter category very strongly in his mind whereas most of us have begun to think Pikachu ranks somewhere more in the middle of the two types. He has undeniable trouble killing without taking risks and his neutral isn't good enough to rack up 150% every stock before he dies trying.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

You're going to have to elaborate on how Ganondorf has an even matchup with Ryu.

Ryu is Ganon on steroids.

While I'd also like to hear what makes it even, I used to hear this description (Ryu is strictly a better Ganondorf in all ways) and it's not exactly true.

Having played both characters, one thing Ganondorf has over Ryu overall is just how gigantic his hitboxes are in comparison. For example, when I'm covering a landing/tech on a platform with Ryu, uair or bair cover about half a platform. Ganondorf uair or nair cover just about all of it. Ganondorf's Usmash can pressure half a platform while you'll only be able to hit a corner's worth of the platform with the tip of Ryu's Usmash or more often medium utilt.

Ganondorf's Dtilt range is ridiculous. It's got about a extra foot's worth of disjoint past the boot and the overall range is just about that of Shulk's dtilt.

Ganondorf Jab range (especially since 1.1.5) might just be the longest range jab in the game if not for Bayonetta. Correct me if I'm wrong in this, I just remember testing phantom hits on Luigi's mansion and seeing how incredibly long it was compared to Link's jab.

Ganondorf also has to be less 'precise' with his kills. With Ryu Shoryuken or Bair are often your kill moves, using confirms into them from tilts or nair. Uair, Medium Jab, Dthrow, and True Tatsumaki are often killing around 150% or so (More like 130% for uair). Dair and Fsmash are situational. Whereas with Ganondorf you don't have to worry about what you hit them with near kill percentages... you just pick whatever move will best hit them in the situation and it'll often kill them.

Fair's abysmal knockback growth also makes Ryu lack a forward facing killing aerial (unless offstage with dair), which Ganondorf has in fair, nair, and even uair.

 

[williamsga555]

Been over the Ganon-D3 matchup many times already. Post-patch I'm a bit more swayed towards it being even, but still not fully convinced. I'm a bit of a Ganon optimist usually, but I genuinely don't think he beats Dedede.

Regardless, the matchup's super volatile and neutral is played awkwardly from both parties, so I'm not terribly shocked to see differing opinions on it.

 

[Blobface]

TBH I'm not really a fan of these kinds of big comprehensive matchup charts. They more often than not tend to turn into tier lists* with a few outliers based on what characters that specific person has experience against.

*I.E. agreed-on low tiers getting put as winning while higher ups tend to be put as losing

 

[Megamang]

Quick Attack is an amazing tool, and it does help all three gamestates significantly, but you want to use it all the time because pika doesn't have a great landing aerial.

I don't think Ryu needs a forward facing killing aerial, an adept Ryu is going to be confirming you to death. Nair and dair especially are terrifying as ganon. Ganon can wall him out, but not indefinitely. Especially since he will be approaching Ryu usually, since you can't sit there and take shakenetsus.

 

[Furret24]

Yeah I think if Ganon's air speed and/or Up B height was increased by just a smidge he would be a lot better. His issues with neutral are vastly overstated - the fact that he has poor recovery and can be gimped mostly for free (hilarious Ganoncide out of nowhere notwithstanding) are what truly hold him back.



He's really only a secondary for me, but no one else is biting, so why not...let's get some more discussion going.

Cue the many angry mains upset that someone would dare say Ganon has a winning matchup against them.

Out of curiosity

Why do you think Ganon beats Game and Watch? I can see it as even, but I'm not sure how Ganondorf could beat him.

 

[Nysyr]

Spoiler

Cue the many angry mains upset that someone would dare say Ganon has a winning matchup against them.

I assume you can explain how Ganondorf beats more mobile projectile users such as Lucario and Mewtwo, especially if they play defensively.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

People are gonna make fun and call BS on Lordmix's match-up spread and the basis for deciding such MU's, when in fact, most of us are guilty of the same thing--we just don't openly admit it.

They also don't have LordMix's results.

I don't agree entirely with his MU chart but he's doing well in the competitive scene (top 8 at fusion 3 just the other week) so w/e.

And when you're close enough and when they're not doing anything for 16 frames. I honestly never got the hype around the move... There's lots of Fsmashes I'd take over Roy's. Or, yaknow, an actually dumb move like Electroshock.

I don't believe Electroshock is a very good move personally. It's too slow.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't believe Electroshock is a very good move personally. It's too slow.

I find it pretty overrated too but I wouldn't call it bad, though I'm assuming we're ignoring it's use in recovery... It does it's job of being Pittwo's "thing."

It completely steps back on f2, has Super Armor on f11, and attacks on f18 (or something because inert detector). Low damage all things considered but high kill power, assuming you're on the ground. Step back can be B-reversed into a step forwards and literally cover half of FD. Beats out everything besides counters (Witch Time exempt lol), tethers (and Flame Choke with the buff), moves with strong enough armor activated at the right time, and maybe half of all projectiles unless he got close enough to hit his opponent. It's like Witch Time where it demands an absurd amount of respect or you'll die super early. If you throw out a jab and he hits side B, you're done. That's why it's dumb, lol.

It loses hard to shield... Sorta. Takes out half a shield for starters. Pseudo randomly crosses up on shield (something about your distance I think, like with an even number of units away you cross up and odd you don't) and using the aerial version pops Dark Pit up and away, and can be acted out of before touching the ground. Not saying shield isn't a major weakness, but it's not as big a weakness as you'd think.

Lots of smaller utilities too, like the hitbox lasting like 40 frames if you hit something, the aerial ledge cancel being really easy to do, or the move being godlike against predictable horizontal recoveries. This being on a durable but otherwise mild character is also really good... Like, imagine how dumb it'd be if Sheik had Falcon's Fsmash compared to Falcon having Falcon's Fsmash.

 

[Kofu]

Ganon is one matchup where I think people overestimate their character's advantage by assuming virtually no error on one side. When watching Pon on SHI-G streams, I notice a number of people in chat saying "this is so bad for Ganon," only for Pon to land 4-5 hits and take the stock. Sure, everyone already knows he can do this, but that doesn't stop people from forgetting it. We tend to have higher performance standards for the characters we main (sometimes unrealistically so), and this is what gets mentally compared to a hypothetical punching bag Ganon.

I think Ganon is very well balanced with what he does (hit really hard basically). His moves really aren't abysmally slow as a whole (hi UTilt); IIRC his frame data is only a little worse than Game & Watch's. He's got great range and does have a few combos and strings at lower percents. He even has burst mobility options, which is nice, but given his terrible movement speed it's possible to get too reliant on them so they get predictable. He's also a very scary edgeguarder (partially because he hits so hard, partially because his aerials are huge and long-lasting).

Unfortunately his movement specs, miniscule standing grab, tall frame, and poor recovery lead him to get pressured and edgeguarded hard by most of the cast, but them's the breaks. He's a lot more imposing in FFAs (and if Brawl is any indication, with items) because you can't always avoid his heavy attacks. I think it's a testament to this game's balance that a more FFA-suited character can still be scary in 1-on-1s, even if he's not viable. And frankly, I'd be scared to see a viable Ganon.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I find it pretty overrated too but I wouldn't call it bad, though I'm assuming we're ignoring it's use in recovery... It does it's job of being Pittwo's "thing."

It completely steps back on f2, has Super Armor on f11, and attacks on f18 (or something because inert detector). Low damage all things considered but high kill power, assuming you're on the ground. Step back can be B-reversed into a step forwards and literally cover half of FD. Beats out everything besides counters (Witch Time exempt lol), tethers (and Flame Choke with the buff), moves with strong enough armor activated at the right time, and maybe half of all projectiles unless he got close enough to hit his opponent. It's like Witch Time where it demands an absurd amount of respect or you'll die super early. If you throw out a jab and he hits side B, you're done. That's why it's dumb, lol.

It loses hard to shield... Sorta. Takes out half a shield for starters. Pseudo randomly crosses up on shield (something about your distance I think, like with an even number of units away you cross up and odd you don't) and using the aerial version pops Dark Pit up and away, and can be acted out of before touching the ground. Not saying shield isn't a major weakness, but it's not as big a weakness as you'd think.

Lots of smaller utilities too, like the hitbox lasting like 40 frames if you hit something, the aerial ledge cancel being really easy to do, or the move being godlike against predictable horizontal recoveries. This being on a durable but otherwise mild character is also really good... Like, imagine how dumb it'd be if Sheik had Falcon's Fsmash compared to Falcon having Falcon's Fsmash.

If you even touch a shield with Electroshock you are dying for it. The move only ever has a decent reward on hit when Dark Pit is on 120-150% and it's definitely not close to being safe on shield.

 

[Emblem Lord]

You're going to have to elaborate on how Ganondorf has an even matchup with Ryu.

Ryu is Ganon on steroids.

Was trying not to be that guy who only talks about his main.

Thanks for the save sis.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

So...

I made a matchup sheet for Charizard...

This assumes Mii Fighters are given full reign of their moves.

So... I know that for some this may seem a tad odd, but let me explain some points.

• I didn't even try to to input numbers here. I think that people focus too much on the numbers and not the experience, so I simply labeled them as how easy I think it is.
• I know the first thing you're thinking. There are way too many evenish characters. Well, yeah. This is exactly Charizard's problem. He doesn't lose too hard against most of the cast, but he doesn't do that well either. He's ho-hum. Middle of the road and doesn't excel and the majority of the cast don't find him a problem either. This makes his harder match ups stick out that much more. And he has a lot of bad ones near the top of the food chain. He's not bad. Just not good, and most of the cast is good.
• One might think that projectiles are a amazing plus against Zard like the other heavies, and while they're still annoying, Charizard can deal with them better than the other super heavy weights. Flare Blitz is a horribly underutilized tool. That said, projectiles are still a problem for Charizard, but they need to have one of two properties. One, they have to be REALLY meaty. They have to pack a punch. Think Charge Shot meaty. Those will straight up over power Flare Blitz. They are amazing Flare Blitz punishes. Second, if you can fill the screen with projectiles, Zard is going to have a bad time.Those kinds of projectiles shut Charizard down completely and remove his projectile trumpcard. Anything else can be flare blitzed or armored through. Don't try to space Zard out with Mega Buster or Fireballs.
• Combos are a thing, and they hurt. Zard is big and has few landing options, so combos can REALLY hurt. Speedy characters that can combo can REALLY take advantage of Zard's bad disadvantage state. That being said, if they really want to get in and do damage, they should try attacking from under him. Then Zard truly suffers.
• Charizard actually has a pretty amazing advantaged state. Once Zard is in, he can stay in and you'd be surprised by what combos. Nair to jab to grab is amazing and I love it.
• Characters with a bad or linear recovery have a really big problem against Zard. He can effectively edge guard them without leaving the stage. Flamethrower is never used and I have no idea why. It's Zard's best move by far. It shuts down approaches, its an amazing approaching tool and most importantly, its an incredibly safe recovery. Characters with particularly bad recoveries are forced to mash Up B to not die and high level Zards can use that to their advantage. You have no idea how useful flamethrower to F Smash is against characters like Cloud and Falcon.
• Recovery is not a problem for Charizard. Fly is a great vertical recovery tool and flare blitz can be used to recover long distances quickly. Not to mention, he has two mid air jumps. Charizard should never have a problem getting back to the stage barring player error.

And I'll address some questionablel placements.

: Yes., he combos and hits hard and he's mobile. But he's that easily killed and walled by flamethrower.
: Why is DK so low? It's a really tough issue and if I had to change one thing about the list, it'd be bumping DK up a tier. Basically, he can effectively be walled out and his recovery can be taken advantage of with ease.
: Yes. Yes. I know... But his recovery and lack of killing ability hurt him pretty badly. Still, he's another really iffy one.
: Just has everything he needs to wreak havoc on Zard.
: Yes, Mii Gunner is the devil and she has everything that can shut Charizard down...
: Iffy on them as well. They can combo well, but not so well that it can't be dealt with. Still, I'm iffy so... eh.


I'm willing and eager to answer any questions you guys got.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you even touch a shield with Electroshock you are dying for it. The move only ever has a decent reward on hit when Dark Pit is on 120-150% and it's definitely not close to being safe on shield.

It still kills pretty early without rage... Especially considering the average weight/gimpability of the top and high tiers.

Mostly the cross up thing keeps people weary enough about punishing with a punishable attack of their own from charging it. Trying to kill from a grab would be tricky for most because Dark Pit's physics really shinks those kill confirm windows down too.

It's high-risk, high-reward if you're using it in neutral. It's great at catching landings between the range and armor... And even has a decent 50/50 off a techchase, and Dark Pit's Ftilt forces said techchases at high enough percents to kill even with DI.