Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nekoo]

And when you're close enough and when they're not doing anything for 16 frames. I honestly never got the hype around the move... There's lots of Fsmashes I'd take over Roy's. Or, yaknow, an actually dumb move like Electroshock.

There is a wonderful thing that is called Mixing thing up and mind game.

Because what you said could be said for Bayo combo. Mario Combo. MK ladder, Ding Dong etc...

''WHY WOULD THEY STAND HERE?''

Trust me when you said it like that it was like we was fighting a poor sandbag.

D-throw can lead to a lot of thing. Try mixing thing up . A single airdodge and you get f-smashed.
F-throw tech chase can lead to it if you read it.
Weakspot F-smash can push the opponent off-stage

etc... When Roy have the flow of the match. a single missed airdodge and you're probably dead. And don't think you can challenge it. Because he can just hit you with the weakspot if he know you're going to challenge the F-smash. I know it sound stupid said like that. But the mentality In-game isn't the same as saying ''MUH THEORY'' During a set trust me. Theory help. But you're human and will do mistake

It doesn't have anything special. But it's a move that you have to give respect. Because ONE miss and you're gone

 

[Pazzo.]

Roy's in a funny spot. He's designed to be a High Risk/High Reward type character, to foil Marth's High Skill/High Reward style.

The problem is, like before the buffs Marth, the designers haven't quite found the sweetspot that'll balance him out (no pun intended).

If the recent patterns of buffed sword characters are any indicator, I'd say with a little luck, Roy will end up somewhere in mid-tier.

 

[BunbUn129]

There is a wonderful thing that is called Mixing thing up and mind game.

Because what you said could be said for Bayo combo. Mario Combo. MK ladder, Ding Dong etc...

''WHY WOULD THEY STAND HERE?''

Trust me when you said it like that it was like we was fighting a poor sandbag.

D-throw can lead to a lot of thing. Try mixing thing up . A single airdodge and you get f-smashed.
F-throw tech chase can lead to it if you read it.
Weakspot F-smash can push the opponent off-stage

etc... When Roy have the flow of the match. a single missed airdodge and you're probably dead.

It doesn't have anything special. But it's a move that you have to give respect. Because ONE miss and you're gone

Bayo combos, Mario combos, the MK ladder (rip), and Ding Dong all start with sub-10 frame moves that have relatively low ending lag.

 

[Nekoo]

Bayo combos, Mario combos, the MK ladder (rip), and Ding Dong all start with sub-10 frame moves that have relatively low ending lag.

Oh come on. You play with word now.

But yeah you're right i didn't chose a good exemple. I still hope i was able to send the correct message saying that Roy Player aren't stupid and wont try to F-smash in the wind. But if they do. It's because they know there a chance it hit. And if it hit well...

Averiderci~

 

[DanGR]

Say what you will about Roy's disadvantaged state and his recovery, but his movement specs as applied to advantage state aren't bad at all. In advantage his fsmash is more of an airdodge deterent than anything. You're not going to land the move if the opponent is okay with settling for extra combo string damage instead, but that's the whole point of it anyways- extra damage on combo strings that could barely be airdodged through, because the risk of dying at 60% isn't worth the reward of maybe getting out of a combo.

 

[my_T]

hate it when people say roy doesn't get anything off grabs past low percents. His advantage state is really good with fair having such low FAF frames, nair is really good, bair kills kinda early, ftilt kills kinda early, utilt kills at decent percents, dash attack kills pretty good, he's quite fast in the air and on the ground, and fsmash kills so dumb early you're pretty much forced to pick your poison in certain situations (hint* hint* don't pick the one where you get pivot fsmashed or something along those lines))

and why do people say he's so unsafe? If you don't perfect shield uair, nair, and dtilt, assuming he is spacing well (just outside of grab range) you are not going to punish these moves because of the amount of shield stun they inflict. If he crosses you up with these three moves...don't even think about punishing. Then there's neutral B which has a huge hitbox, can be B-reversed, and has an obnoxious lack of end lag.

 

[PK Gaming]

Bowsers high tier when i play him,
Remember you only really fight bowser when you fight me and i found some new technology vs noobs who wanna abuse big characters landings and roll around bowser and throw out grabs and noob options

You definitely have the best mindset for a Bowser main

I still remember when you dismantled that Lucario player after you broke his shield with the Bowser Bomb

:lol

 

[Greward]

I don't want to get into deviations and stuff when it comes to tier size. Quite simply, from what I've observed, people really struggle to get to grips with the fact that this game has a massive roster. The tiers have GOT to be bigger.

A 3-character top tier would actually be sort of ludicrous now, IMO. I could kind of understand it in 1.1.3 because the three queens were rather dominant (I still think Diddy should have been up there, and probably Cloud) but to restrict top/high tier to 13 characters in a game with, at that point, 56 characters, just doesn't make sense. I mean, it might if over half the roster was genuinely mid-tier or worse, but that isn't even the case.

With Melee currently having a 4-character top tier and 26 characters, S4 would make sense with the same ratio. Considering its roster is more than twice the size, having around 8 top tiers makes perfect sense to me even though 8 might sound like a lot. High tier could then be slightly expanded to 9 or 10 characters (Melee currently has 4 high tiers as well). I hope the top ~20 or so get to be high tier in the next list.

I'd say "top tier" is more like a power level in the game, not a predetermined amount of characters.
So whether there are 5 or 15 top tiers depends on the balance.
But if we go with this line of thought, there's hardly any low tier characters, and probably no bottom tiers, which there should be. So it's all depending on comparison between them and the power level in this specific game.

 

[Megamang]

Roy can land his f-smash off a banana... I wonder if that factors much into Ryo's usage of him vs Diddy.

 

[Nekoo]

Roy can land his f-smash off a banana... I wonder if that factors much into Ryo's usage of him vs Diddy.

You must fight fire with fire.

Ryo decided to beat banana with a banana move

 

[KamikazePotato]

Ryo was using Roy last night for three reasons:

1. Every time he brought out Corrin he got bodied
2. The semis and finals were stacked full of Diddy and ZSS players; Diddy especially is probably Ike's worst matchup
3. He loves Fire Emblem too much to use anyone else

You could see it on his face every time he went to Roy. He was in total "**** it" mode.

 

[BSP]

To argue for the 2% healing advantage, I'll say this. It can be a game changer in a lot of close situations. If you are barely in kill percentages, healing is nice. As Rosa, you really can't let him heal all the way for 3 minutes. This is unlike most MUs, where she can just sit there and gravity pull you for 6 minutes if she is up by 1%. I think that is all Pac Mains are really getting at, it forces approaches. That alone is powerful, but if you lose the first stock to ragealina at 40% it doesn't matter.

This. Pac-Man shouldn't be getting Uair cheesed much though.

What is the logic on beating fox? It just seems like a MU that he has a lot of advantages in, but I don't know Pac Man (theory) that well. Fox is suppressive, has a reflector AND a projectile, and kills well, especially with Rage. He is also mobile and packs a huge punch. Seems like a nightmare. Perhaps Pac has some really good gimps on him, and the hydrant helps that? Because lasers can force you to abandon your camping game if done correctly.

I would like to hear why Sinji thinks Pac-Man beats Fox. Pac-Man has the orange on him offstage and some decent OoS options against his pressure, but Fox is a monster in general. I'd put in Fox favor based on my experiences (D1, MegaFox, ThisGuy), but maybe my trouble comes from my style of play. Still, I'd have to see this one to believe it.

So.. fox just shoots the hydrant, then you are exposed to lasers and the hydrant comes at you and fox gets to refresh all his moves when you put a hydrant down. And, germane to the current discussion, how does he deal with fox's safe and deadly pressure with such a crappy grab? Trampoline OOS is alright but the risk/reward really doesn't favor you if you are relying on it.

Lasers aren't that big of a deal. They never launch the hydrant, nor do they count towards lowering its HP, so it's in Fox's best interest to keep chasing Pac-Man down. Hitting Hydrant also doesn't unstale/stale moves. Test some stuff out first! Trampoline is, as you said, a decent response to his pressure. Fox doesn't have the most range and trampoline doesn't really care about his cross ups, so for a character that doesn't get THAT much off of grabs, it's nice to have against him.

I'm not even going to waste my time with that tier list. A character who struggles to kill (and struggles even harder when you have matchup experience) has a 7-3 favorable matchup with Link.

Nevermind that Link can abuse rage quite well in this matchup, block fruit just by standing still, destroy and send Fire Hydrant right back at him with one sweetspot up air, one forward tilt(?), and two down tilts.

I've have to see some high level gameplay of Pac-Man stomping Link before I gave it a 7-3. If haven't fought any big name Link players myself, so I can't say much on the matter.

I know Pac-Man players love to tout Power Pellet healing as the answer to Rosalina, but honestly? Compared to getting pummeled with fruit and hydrants, not to mention the crazy traps and setups Pac-Man can do with said fruit and hydrant, the ability to give all that a giant middle finger at the cost of 2% healing for Pac-Man is a trade I will take every time. That's literally a single jab, hardly a gamechanger.

At the end of the day, it forces the approach. That's a win in my book, and something very few characters can claim vs Rosa.

Random thought: Would GP be of any use for dealing with z-drop shenanigans?

Probably, but it's probably not safe either since Pac-Man is most likely right above your head.

I'd say the best time to use the hydrant is when you're above Rosalina. She can't oneshot it with uair, and the hitboxes won't cancel it because Luma is Luma and Rosalina's ring is transcendent. So her options are to GP (punishable if you're close enough, and I mean actual damage not Power Pellet healing), airdodge (which means it still hits Luma), or GTFO (yay, you have some stage control).

The best time is whenever Pac-Man wants to, unless Rosa is right there to punish. I rarely try to punish Rosa when a hydrant is swirling around her because it can still hit Pac-Man, whereas the heal is safe. Those 2% heals add up fast if you keep spamming GP, so while you aren't taking damage directly, you are hurting yourself indirectly.

I won't pretend to have any high level Pac-Man experience, but given what I know about their tools and my own likely reactions, I'd call it slight advantage to Rosalina at best, but I can accept even as well.

I think it's slightly her favor because her hitboxes are massive and she still has the KO power advantage. Both can edgeguard each other pretty hard and I think Pac-Man wins the patient game, but Rosalina's buttons are dumb.

I mostly think like you. But i'll Put a slight Adventage for Rosaluma, Pac-man will still have a rought time to get pass Luma who will absorb his projectile or Rosalina who can attract them.

Contrary to popular belief, Pac-Man doesn't have much incentive to go over towards her with Luma alive unless he's down a stock or time is running out. From Galaxian upwards, his fruits will pierce through Luma and still hit Rosa, although they can still be cancelled by its attacks. Tumbling fire hydrant will also plow right through it. If Rosa keeps GP'ing whatever he throws, Pac-Man heals. Yes, 2% is small, but it can be the difference between life and death, and the deciding factor in a timeout situation.

 

[LancerStaff]

Roy's in a funny spot. He's designed to be a High Risk/High Reward type character, to foil Marth's High Skill/High Reward style.

The problem is, like before the buffs Marth, the designers haven't quite found the sweetspot that'll balance him out (no pun intended).

If the recent patterns of buffed sword characters are any indicator, I'd say with a little luck, Roy will end up somewhere in mid-tier.

I doubt Roy would even get any real buffs because most people are still convinced he's really good. They've been good at listening to fans with Smash's patches, but generally they're not listening to the 1%. Everybody thought Mewtwo sucked. Everybody thought Ike sucked (initially/in Japan). Roy's more like Little Mac where most people think he's OP because they suck at the game, and besides the initial nerfs Mac hasn't been buffed significantly either.

Add in the fact that patches are ending (if it's not over already) I don't think they're going to do any gigantic buffs out of fear of accidentally making something ridiculous. Last patch was mostly nerfs and largely insignificant buffs, and the next patch will likely be the same.

 

[Megamang]

My main problem with Rosalina as a zoning character is the fact she can attack to cancel everything out, and if you are nearby she will hit you as well. And her edgeguarding. GP is an afterthought (only comparatively, that move is crazy) , though it is really annoying vs uair.

Also, I think the fact that Roy is Ryo's choice against Diddy, even if he is only choosing from (most of) the fire emblem characters, still means something. I mean, we accept Ike as good and Roy is better in those MUs. His ike lost to a Diddy and then his Roy swept it, IIRC

 

[Illuminose]

I agree with Greward 's line of thinking. Setting deviations and ratios for tiers completely defeats the purpose, imo. I would much rather rank by relative power levels. For example, I have a top tier that looks like this:

+:
-:

Don't talk about the placements, that's not the point here (the - part isn't even in fully defined order).The point of a tier list is not the number of characters, but how viable they are relative to each other. I look at matchups and results to rank the characters accordingly. For my tier list, I have 28 characters at high tier or above, which is 47.5% of the cast. I have 14 characters in top tier, or 24.1% of the cast. I don't think the number actually matters, it's all in relative viability.

 

[Nobie]

I feel like the flaws in Roy's sweetspot positions get exaggerated. Yeah, Marth's arrangement is always going to be better for a sword character, which is why they tried to compensate by giving Roy such high movement specs, but Roy's also not the only character to have that setup. Mewtwo is often called a "sword character" of sorts due its tail, but if you look at the way Mewtwo's tail attacks function they're actually Roy-esque. The base of the tail is strongest, and then it gets weaker at the tip, and yet this isn't listed as a fatal flaw of Mewtwo. If M2 gets the strong hit of f-tilt, great. If not, still okay. Why is Roy's setup considered so much worse then?

(Of course I know that the difference between Mewtwo and Roy is that Mewtwo isn't ONLY a sword character, but you get what I mean.)

 

[Nu~]

I feel like the flaws in Roy's sweetspot positions get exaggerated. Yeah, Marth's arrangement is always going to be better for a sword character, which is why they tried to compensate by giving Roy such high movement specs, but Roy's also not the only character to have that setup. Mewtwo is often called a "sword character" of sorts due its tail, but if you look at the way Mewtwo's tail attacks function they're actually Roy-esque. The base of the tail is strongest, and then it gets weaker at the tip, and yet this isn't listed as a fatal flaw of Mewtwo. If M2 gets the strong hit of f-tilt, great. If not, still okay. Why is Roy's setup considered so much worse then?

(Of course I know that the difference between Mewtwo and Roy is that Mewtwo isn't ONLY a sword character, but you get what I mean.)

Same with shulk, but then again he isn't seen as "viable" either.

Although, I think the reason people emphasize it so greatly with Roy is because of just how weak his sourspots are.
The power difference between a tip and a base hit with Roy is pretty big. Large enough to the point where Roy can't really space safely with the tip.

Having a shorter sword exacerbates the issue.

 

[Pazzo.]

I doubt Roy would even get any real buffs because most people are still convinced he's really good. They've been good at listening to fans with Smash's patches, but generally they're not listening to the 1%. Everybody thought Mewtwo sucked. Everybody thought Ike sucked (initially/in Japan). Roy's more like Little Mac where most people think he's OP because they suck at the game, and besides the initial nerfs Mac hasn't been buffed significantly either.

Add in the fact that patches are ending (if it's not over already) I don't think they're going to do any gigantic buffs out of fear of accidentally making something ridiculous. Last patch was mostly nerfs and largely insignificant buffs, and the next patch will likely be the same.

Right, my assumptions only make sense if patches continue.

Where do you think the devs. gather most of their info, BTW?

 

[Y2Kay]

Bowsers high tier when i play him,
Remember you only really fight bowser when you fight me and i found some new technology vs noobs who wanna abuse big characters landings and roll around bowser and throw out grabs and noob options

Its my character and I'm the only one using him so I'm entitled to say however i feel or think about any mu and if any of you would like to change my mind, you can try but it will most likely fail

Well this thread is for discussion. If you won't give any insight on why your placings are the way they are (they look pretty crazy btw), and you preemptively already know you can't change your mind about it, then there is nothing to talk about.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Where do you think the devs. gather most of their info, BTW?

Worldwide tournament results, For Glory data we aren't privy too, and the Japanese scene in general would be my guesses.

I noticed that no pro player had made an Ike matchup list, so I whipped one up quick based on the results/matches in pro grames I've seen, the general opinions of the Ike matchup thread, and my own limited matchup experience. Tried to avoid the pitfall of 'person overrates their own main' but that's more difficult than it seems. This is meant to be critiqued and changed, so I'd like if everyone threw in their two cents and told me which areas they thought I was horribly wrong in.

Keep in mind this list is unordered within tiers.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Diddy especially is probably Ike's worst matchup

Strangely enough, he did much better as Ike against MVD's Diddy compared to when he used Corrin and Roy.

 

[Nobie]

I wonder if Marth and Roy's designs tend to invalidate each other, such that whenever one is considered stronger it reduces the chances of people using the other to a greater degree than if they were just, say, two very different characters.

Right now with Marth's recent buffs and decent success in tournaments you have people going, "Why use Roy? He's counterintuitive to being a swordsman, and so his risk/reward or sweetspot/sourspot situation isn't worth it."

However, not so long ago you had more and more people saying, "What's the point of using Marth when Roy exists?" Roy was seen as having the mobility and reliability, and the idea that I saw being thrown around was, "Why try to space properly with Marth and still not get enough out of it, when Roy can do something similar and also get damage more reliably?"

Roy probably should have a stronger sweetspot overall compared to Marth, but at what point is it properly balanced such that people have reasons to use both?

I hear PM Roy is well-liked, so maybe the answer is there, but I know nothing of PM.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Diddy is another 40-60 MU for Ike. Its just one where if you aren't comfortable with the MU on top of the disadvantage it really shows.

Ike MU posted above isn't bad. Probably bump Lucina up one level in ease due to her not having tippers to kill us quickly (and would be important in a spacing battle like this one), Sonic up one (consistent results don't lie. Sonic does noooooot like Ike. At all.).

Olimar from everything I've seen/everything I've heard we beat him. So wrong side of the 50-50 bar there. Rosalina will be debated to death forever: no Ike has beaten Dabuz but we've beaten the other ones. ZSS miiiight be 45-55 instead of 40-60 it was certainly an easier 40-60 before the last patch. MK I'm not convinced is a 55-45 instead of a 50-50.

...

Let me just simplify this: over half of the MUs in the 45-55 to 55-45 can and will be argued about by mains on both sides of those MUs. Only for sure movements I'd say are Olimar, Lucina, Sonic, DK (down, throw combo too volatile). DHD, Wario and Lucario are under "most likely but still probably arguments" category.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Worldwide tournament results, For Glory data we aren't privy too, and the Japanese scene in general would be my guesses.

I noticed that no pro player had made an Ike matchup list, so I whipped one up quick based on the results/matches in pro grames I've seen, the general opinions of the Ike matchup thread, and my own limited matchup experience. Tried to avoid the pitfall of 'person overrates their own main' but that's more difficult than it seems. This is meant to be critiqued and changed, so I'd like if everyone threw in their two cents and told me which areas they thought I was horribly wrong in.

Keep in mind this list is unordered within tiers.

In my experience, Corrin is even. S/he can juggle Ike pretty easily, but has a harder time killing him. Ike has more range overall, so he can space out Corrin, plus he can do usual Ike combos on him. Both recoveries are easy to deal with. I also think Rosa is even, since pretty much every move Ike has can kill Luma, and Rosa is pretty light. That said, we're still susceptible to Rosa things.

Diddy isn't THAT terrible. Most put him at 40:60. I know @san. thinks he's only 45:55.

Btw, the Ike discord is discussing MU charts. If you're not already there, you should come join and share your chart.

 

[williamsga555]

KamikazePotato

Find it a bit curious that Dedede is the only matchup you've got at 60:40. Not necessarily disagreeing with that aspect, but it seems odd to not only have it be Ike's supposed best matchup, but his only one at that ratio. Mind going into what makes it particularly worse for D3 than the other characters Ike beats?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Strangely enough, he did much better as Ike against MVD's Diddy compared to when he used Corrin and Roy.

Well, Diddy also happens to be a pretty bad matchup for Corrin as well so that one's not very surprising.

 

[sedrf]

Hey juddy anybody going to ksb ? Also what is the other japanese tourney like?

 

[Rizen]

My 2 cents:
Pac-Man does not outcamp Link because Link shouldn't be spamming from the ground. Link can hop around platforms and throw stuff over hydrants. Link generally outspams Pac-Man but that isn't a big issue. Pac-Man has better mobility and frame data than Link easily. Zoning pac man is hard because this; Link needs to carefully keep the bouncy yellow ball where he wants him. If Link over commits he gets overwhelmed. Pac Man has an easier time killing with hydrant and the key plus combos from fruits while Link gets mainly chip damage from his projectiles. Pac isn't super hard for Link to kill but Link is on the losing end in this aspect. Pac's antics make him hard to grab but Pac's grab sucks so Link wins here and that's significant.
This is another MU where imo Link has a harder time. He needs better reads and risks more with commitment. Link does have good reach and lasting power though. It's not terrible but is a -1.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Thanks for the feedback, guys.

KamikazePotato

Find it a bit curious that Dedede is the only matchup you've got at 60:40. Not necessarily disagreeing with that aspect, but it seems odd to not only have it be Ike's supposed best matchup, but his only one at that ratio. Mind going into what makes it particularly worse for D3 than the other characters Ike beats?

I feel like Ike counters a lot of what DDD does. Large disjointed hitboxes let me swat away the Gordos with ease. Ike is heavy and can live for a while, so it's more difficult for DDD to get those hail mary rage attacks that immediately turn the tide (which also applies to Ike trying to kill DDD, but Ike overall has a much easier time landing hits). Ike's spacing in general makes it hard for DDD to get any traction.

I could be convinced it was 45-55 though. In general I don't think Ike crushes anyone in Smash 4, he's a very read-based character.

 

[Megamang]

I'd say Ike isn't really polarizing, and since his throw confirm works decently one everyone but doesn't outright slaughter anyone + he can't wall as consistently as other sword characters, no one gets BTFO'd by him badly. DDD can't deal with spaced hit confirms and throw -> fair working forever, but even he can win on offstage gambits. Also, even in MUs where Ike gets beaten up, he has rage kills to bring it back in a lot of scenarios, and he isn't dead until he is totally dead.

I'd think if he ever did get a MU worse than 40:60, it'd be someone who figures out how to flowchart him to death offstage. But his recovery is good enough with DI upwards that you shouldn't be crippled by it.

Did I guess right? It seems like a lot of Ike's traits balance eachother out, he is the opposite of polarizing. DDD just happens to not line up well, but others usually have some MU that is way worse.

Oh, and he can edgeguard almost everyone with Eruption if you end up in the wrong spot.

 

[juddy96]

V115 was just 2-0'd by Fairess at Kuwait Battle Royal

 

[KamikazePotato]

Did I guess right? It seems like a lot of Ike's traits balance eachother out, he is the opposite of polarizing.

Yeah, this is true. I may be coming from a place of bias but I think Ike is one of the most balanced characters in the game - he can easily lose his winning matchups and easily win his losing matchups.

 

[ArikadoSD]

V115 was just 2-0'd by Fairess at Kuwait Battle Royal

Came here to post this. Game 1 was even a 2 stock.

I feel like there's a lot of misinformation around Zelda tbh (same problem as Roy as well), having played Fairess so much myself. Her grab game and the actual grab's range are actually ridiculous.

 

[Djent]

Hey juddy anybody going to ksb ? Also what is the other japanese tourney like?

RE: KVO, check out the collaborative preview article that juat went up on the front page.

 

[Vyrnx]

Not that it justifies his poor MU chart or anything, but for the people who said LordMix is basing his opinion off of FG, he was the Bowser listed as the best in Zero's series. So I don't think he is just an FG player.
Also getting pretty tired of these ridiculously stupid MU charts, apparently Pacman, Bowser, etc have some super top spreads/like six different 70:30 MUs lmao.

Edit: My point was that LordMix isn't an FG player, not that we should all, "take Zero's videos as law." But on that note, since Zero probably knows nothing about Bowser and his players, LordMix being the best is most likely based on general Bowser community opinion, and not Zero's opinion.

 

[Megamang]

Well, we don't exactly take Zero's video on that as law here. He forgot Purple Guy! But it does mean he is a notable player. And LordMix is a premier bowser. I wouldn't say he is the only one playing the character. And, as someone else said, its the perfect attitude for a bowser main. Either that, or 'I lose all my MUs but I win because i'm a god' which would fit with the villain thing.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

If I had to choose one 60:40 MU in favor of Ike, it'd be Ganon. And even then, Ike doesn't really stomp on Ganon super hard, at least in my experience.

 

[Ninety]

Everyone's preferred favorable matchup is Ganon. At least Jigglypuff is hard to hit.

 

[BunbUn129]

But then Ganon is always one read away from taking your stock.

 

[Djent]

Ganon is one matchup where I think people overestimate their character's advantage by assuming virtually no error on one side. When watching Pon on SHI-G streams, I notice a number of people in chat saying "this is so bad for Ganon," only for Pon to land 4-5 hits and take the stock. Sure, everyone already knows he can do this, but that doesn't stop people from forgetting it. We tend to have higher performance standards for the characters we main (sometimes unrealistically so), and this is what gets mentally compared to a hypothetical punching bag Ganon.