Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

Air speed and frame data seem to be the winning factors. Juggles are strong because landing is hard. Characters who can apply lots of pressure to an aerial opponent and threaten with low aerials or the ability to chase.

 

[TurboLink]

Well, since this thread is currently lacking a purpose, I have a question that I've always been wondering: what are the qualities of a good disadvantage state? What core things are generally valued?

+Isn't combo food
+Is virtually impossible to juggle
+Good recovery

Those are some of the things I think of.

 

[Mario766]

Having a move that shoots you halfway across the stage safely also does the trick.

These moves also usually have some of these traits:

1) Intangible frames
2) Don't send you into free fall
3) Disjointed

 

[my_T]

@G. Stache

to add to what others have mentioned:

multiple jumps, decently fast fall speed, a low risk and fast get off me move

 

[juddy96]

VSGC Weekly is huge and pretty stacked today

https://www.twitch.tv/vsgc
http://versus.challonge.com/s4_042816

 

[Megamang]

Old guard best disadvantage winners: flip kick out, what disadvantage?

New guard best disadvantage winners: push advantage too much vs me and ill flip it or kill you at 60 (cloud in limit especially, bayonetta)

 

[BananaBake]

Sometimes the stage helps. Depending on the stage, you can recover high or low as a mix-up, like Smashville, Town and City, whereas with FD you go for the ledge and that's really it

 

[Illuminose]

I think it's worth noting that ZSS's flip kick has shown itself as...not actually an impenetrable form of escaping juggles for characters with very good juggles, like Cloud, Rosa, Fox, other ZSS, Falcon, and certain other characters. Once ZSS has used up Flip Kick, her options are very limited and you're working with a 50 frame commitment in the move itself that doesn't exactly go far enough to put you assuredly out of harm's way in every situation. Recent sets of Dabuz vs Nairo really highlight this.

 

[David Viran]

I think it's worth noting that ZSS's flip kick has shown itself as...not actually an impenetrable form of escaping juggles for characters with very good juggles, like Cloud, Rosa, Fox, other ZSS, Falcon, and certain other characters. Once ZSS has used up Flip Kick, her options are very limited and you're working with a 50 frame commitment in the move itself that doesn't exactly go far enough to put you assuredly out of harm's way in every situation. Recent sets of Dabuz vs Nairo really highlight this.

Not that I disagree with you but nairo doesn't even use flip jump that much against dabuz in juggle situations. He has a nasty AD habit against dabuz and dabuz has mentioned before in his analysis's that nairo is surprisingly predictable when bring juggled.

 

[Megamang]

Disadvantage in general is a lot more varied than advantage. When I say this, I mean generally your character is going to be pushing towards the same goal to kill your opponent (bowjow wants to hit kart in all his MUs, etc) while disadvantage's best options are determined by tool interaction. In some MUs, flip kick is that unpunishable escape button. In others, like Rosa, it is risky. Vs marth, going offstage is probably not a great idea, vs Sonic it can save your stock. etc etc.


Of course, your advantage varies based on your opponents disadvantage options... but generally its whether or not your tool works, not a total change.

Or, using Ike as an example, stage choice can profoundly change your disadvantage options. Quick draw is pretty great at battlefield, kinda meh at FD.


Then you have Witch Time, Cloud's Dair, Quick Attack... moves that you decide, during disadvantage, 'if I hit this I am immediately in advantage'. Pretty damn useful.


Anyways, this was just what came to mind when we talk about disadvantage. Your tools vary a lot based on MU. Quick Attack is really great vs Fox because you can suddenly combo or gimp him. Vs giant hitboxes, however, it is pretty damn difficult to not get hit.


Disadvantage is probably where Megaman fails the most, since his neutral is deadly and advantage, while not quickly deadly, keeps racking damage, and can be a quick kill if uair or bair gimps come into play. But his recovery is so meh. Vs someone like Corrin, this isn't so bad (though fsmash landing traps are painful) but vs Bayonetta, the nair wall can basically not be avoided if she plays it right.

In general, we talk about active frames, but when Bayonetta comes up, it is seldom mentioned that she can choose to just have constant active frames, unlike anyone else (except Mario >.>). This is something that is a huuuuge problem for a lot of the cast, especially when recovering. Or, relevant to disadvantage discussion, when they are trying to use airdodges to avoid traps.


Can bayonetta confirm from an extended nair? I think ABK works?

 

[KamikazePotato]

Watching VSGC. Most notable moments so far:

-Purple Guy's Zelda beat Xaltis' Rosalina 2-0, getting a two stock each time
-Ryo faced PPG Josh's Diddy, lost a match with Corrin, then brought it back with 2 straight Roy wins

 

[Trifroze]

Presuming disadvantage is defined as the state when you're in the air or on the ledge and don't have access to shield so OoS game is irrelevant, then the ability to return back to the ground (without being grabbed or dash attacked immediately again) is what ends disadvantage.

As such it's your options, mobility, gravity, weight and hurtbox that determines how good your disadvantage is, with options including things like additional jumps and command jumps, (fast) hitboxes all around you or below you, the ability to recover in different ways, the amount of viable ledge getup options and so on. The more options you have the less likely the opponent is to guess out the correct one and the more likely you're to reset to neutral.

Additionally fast aerials and command jumps break out of strings earlier than normal jumping so they're a big deal, and a big hurtbox is obviously bad since you'll get hit from further away. High gravity makes juggles particularly effective on you (fall speed as well, but fall speed always has pros and cons), and low weight makes weight dependent combo throws (like Falcon's dthrow) more effective on you.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Well, since this thread is currently lacking a purpose, I have a question that I've always been wondering: what are the qualities of a good disadvantage state? What core things are generally valued?

A good disadvantage state?

Mandatory

-Being able to recover alright, even if your second jump is gone.
-Having multiple options to recover.
-Good landing options.
-Not being prone to juggling or having a reliable escape from it (think Luigi's nair, Mario's super punch, or Marth's dolphin slash).
-Aerial combo breakers or low risk aerials that can knock away or even flat out kill your opponent if they come after you.

Optional

-Air stall options.
-Being able to easily go under stages as a recovery option.
-Trumps that can put you right back in the game even if you're down (think Wario's waft or Villager's pocket).
-Being able to use items you produce in the air.
-Good ledge trump options.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Ryo makes Roy look like a good character.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

those (reliable) kill options are?

LCS, I mean it is quite possibly the best kill move in the game
There's also bair, fair, spaced fsmash (correct me if I'm wrong but MM doesn't have an oos option with enough range to punish it), and his amazing edgeguarding

 

[TriTails]

Disadvantage generally is when you are in a juggling position for your opponent and offstage, as well as being trapped in a combo.

Bowser's is terrible because even when his landing options are super scary, they lag for a year and it's practically impossible to miss him in the air. He has little air acce to back his decent airspeed and all of his landing options are super laggy (Landing normally needs SIX frames holy flap). He has decent recovery for a heavy, but it's still fairly predictable without any options to get back on stage because 40 frames of land lag IIRC (Albeit, F-air is nice for defense). RIP Bowser vs combos MUs.

He also has no safe nor fast 'hands off me' or 'get out jail card' moves to help him either.

You can pretty much use the same principle for others. Sheik has BF for landing and geting comboed affairs along with teleport recovery. ZSS' Flip Kick nonsense, etc.

 

[Aaron1997]

Sinjis Match-up chart

Sinji along with me and some other pacmans thinks that Rosa is even or better while everyone else that has never seen a Pacman with match-up Xp thinks Rosa is god awful. Also he thinks Sheik is even post patch. He also thinks we beat Fox, Pika, Corrin and Villy. Zss and Mk as worst match-ups? I've never really had a problem with MK and Zss is only bad if she plays really defensive. We lose to Marth but Lucina is good for us? Most of us agree that Cloud is our worst so I Would like some explantions for some of these. @Sinji

 

[Megamang]

What is the logic on beating fox? It just seems like a MU that he has a lot of advantages in, but I don't know Pac Man (theory) that well. Fox is suppressive, has a reflector AND a projectile, and kills well, especially with Rage. He is also mobile and packs a huge punch. Seems like a nightmare. Perhaps Pac has some really good gimps on him, and the hydrant helps that? Because lasers can force you to abandon your camping game if done correctly.


Also, you might want to edit/tell Sinji, but it should be 'watch the opponent bawl'. I just found it funny, because 'watch the opponent ball' makes it sound like they're gonna ball on you, which is a bad thing.

 

[Kofu]

Yeah uh, Game & Watch can get through Pac-Man's walls well enough. Him having a bad shield grab helps. The MU seems even enough to me.

Fun Pac fact, he can B-reverse Bonus Fruit when he throws it, even if done while charging it.

 

[my_T]

Don't know why this isn't included

OoS shield options must be taken into consideration as well when talking about a characters disadvantage state

Characters that lack fast OoS options are easier to safe poke them. Characters like fox and kirby who have such good frame data in CQC are pretty much unpunishable by some characters because they don't have anything fast enough to punish them OoS. This makes it easier to pressure them once they go into their shield.

This weakness is very noticeable when you cross someones shield or if you are dealing with a character that has really safe pokes like fox and kirby in CQC or ZSS nair and sheiks fair

Characters with good OoS options (ness nair, pikachu nair, Zamus upB, Bayo upB, etc) can relieve pressure or possibly take your stock.

 

[Nekoo]

Ryo makes Roy look like a good character.

You mean somebody makes a character look good when it's already a fine character but people **** on him just because nobody play him?

Thanks captain obvious.


>INB4 player skill

Anyway. About the disaventage state discussion...

I see that almost every top/high tiers have something to get out from a disavantage states or their disaventage states are almost inexistant. But what about and?

Cloud seem to have one of the biggest disaventage state but I guess that the limit trump card save him.

but Ness? He have one combo breaker with his N-air but his recovery option are pretty limited.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Because lasers can force you to abandon your camping game if done correctly.
.

Hydrant negates them, so with correct placement, Pac-Man can camp all he wants.

 

[Megamang]

So.. fox just shoots the hydrant, then you are exposed to lasers and the hydrant comes at you and fox gets to refresh all his moves when you put a hydrant down. And, germane to the current discussion, how does he deal with fox's safe and deadly pressure with such a crappy grab? Trampoline OOS is alright but the risk/reward really doesn't favor you if you are relying on it.


Cloud's disadvantage is dependent on where he is. Offstage, yes he is one of the worst. But, on stage, he has lots of tools. Dair is safe, has a big hitbox (especially for a dair, most characters don't have good moves to challenge juggling) and puts you in a horrible situation or outright kills you . Nair and fair are also great hitboxes to protect him from things. He is really heavy as well.

When he is in limit, he can challenge horizontal presssure/strings with LCS. Not only does the invincible startup and huge hitbox help him here, but the incredible power means getting hit in a weird situation (chasing him) can cost your stock. These things all come to a head when you are at kill percentages, and make him really hard to finish off unless you have a confirm..

Also, when he isn't in limit he gets limit for getting beat up ;_;

 

[Nobie]

Aside from having a linear recovery at the start and being a fast faller, I think Mega Man's disadvantaged state is very good. Unlike a lot of the other heavy characters he's fairly small which makes him a harder target to hit. He has good air speed, fantastic air acceleration, and the ability to not only act out of Up B but cancel its lag by attacking. And then, if your goal in disadvantage is to reset to neutral at the very least, then a lot of times all it takes is to hit them with a pellet.

 

[TurboLink]

I'm not even going to waste my time with that tier list. A character who struggles to kill (and struggles even harder when you have matchup experience) has a 7-3 favorable matchup with Link.

Nevermind that Link can abuse rage quite well in this matchup, block fruit just by standing still, destroy and send Fire Hydrant right back at him with one sweetspot up air, one forward tilt(?), and two down tilts.

 

[bc1910]

ZSS' nair is still +2 vs shieldgrabs (forget if this is vs f6 or f7 shieldgrabs though, but pretty sure it's f6). Even after the damage nerf and the range nerf, it's still one of the safest falling aerials in the game both from max range and from close range, so it's definitely still safe on block.

Greninja's Nair is actually the same (+2 on 6f shieldgrabs, -4 on shield) but in a real match you are unlikely to get frame perfect Nairs every time. It's the same situation for ZSS, so whilst her Nair is technically safe it leaves you with no margin for error if you want to spotdodge the grab. Her f1 jab is an excellent follow-up on block though.

View attachment 105466

Sinjis Match-up chart

Sinji along with me and some other pacmans thinks that Rosa is even or better while everyone else that has never seen a Pacman with match-up Xp thinks Rosa is god awful. Also he thinks Sheik is even post patch. He also thinks we beat Fox, Pika, Corrin and Villy. Zss and Mk as worst match-ups? I've never really had a problem with MK and Zss is only bad if she plays really defensive. We lose to Marth but Lucina is good for us? Most of us agree that Cloud is our worst so I Would like some explantions for some of these. @Sinji

I really hate this MU but I'm told by Greninjas and Pac-Men alike that it's solidly in Greninja's favour, so I don't know what to think. I guess I'm just bad at it.

I'm not even going to waste my time with that tier list. A character who struggles to kill (and struggles even harder when you have matchup experience) has a 7-3 favorable matchup with Link.

Nevermind that Link can abuse rage quite well in this matchup, block fruit just by standing still, destroy and send Fire Hydrant right back at him with one sweetspot up air, one forward tilt(?), and two down tilts.

I'd also have thought Link does well in this MU. You have a heavy-ish character with good killing and camping potential vs an arguably worse zoner who really struggles to kill once you learn the MU and/or can stop him from getting Key. I can see Pac's edgeguarding being problematic for Link but I can't see this being worse than 4-6 for Link, if that.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

You mean somebody makes a character look good when it's already a fine character but people **** on him just because nobody play him?

Thanks captain obvious.


>INB4 player skill

Anyway. About the disaventage state discussion...

I see that almost every top/high tiers have something to get out from a disavantage states or their disaventage states are almost inexistant. But what about and?

Cloud seem to have one of the biggest disaventage state but I guess that the limit trump card save him.

but Ness? He have one combo breaker with his N-air but his recovery option are pretty limited.

Roy is bad, the fact that he has a bad neutral AND one of the worst disadvantage states in the game should be enough for people to understand this.

Cloud's disadvantage would be fine but his recovery hurts him a lot. He does however get Limit from being hit which is a huge bonus and he also has great landing options along with a frame 5 combo breaker in nair, if he were to have a get out of jail free card his disadvantage would be on par with Bayonetta's

Ness disadvantage is pretty bad, the only thing that keeps it from being one of the worst in the game is his amazing airdodge and his nair

 

[WeirdChillFever]

RE: Link vs. Pac-Man

I think Sinji's optimism stems from the fact that Hydrant does a good job at blocking Link's camping game.
None of his projectiles one-shot the Hydrant, which gives Pac-Man the chance to set-up an approach (either through launching the Hydrant after it's been hit or through Fruit)
So as a camper, Link loses 7-3

But a Link knowing the matchup probably won't play as a full-on camper.

RE: Greninja vs Pac-Man
Yes, as a Greninja, this MU can frustrate (that's Pac-Man for you )
Trampoline blocks the floor, Hydrant messes with Shurikens and Fruit fly in the face.
However, Pac-Man can't keep up this fortress forever, which is where Greninja can and must get in.
Sooner or later, Pac-Man has to charge his fruit without Hydrant protection, which is where Greninja can stuff him with Shurikens.

Same with ZSS and Ryu and to a lesser extent, heavies, we can block them quite well but not forever.
I think Trela has said this about Ryu in general once, you will mess up.

RE: Fox vs Pac-Man
I have no idea why Sinji put this as a win.
Maybe he feel Fox is easy to keep out?

 

[Nu~]

I remember Sinji talking about how fox suffers offstage due to orange edge guards, but not much else. I mean, sure, trampoline makes it harder for fox to get to you, but he can just jump over and punish your landing if you use it too closely to him.

 

[Nekoo]

Roy is bad, the fact that he has a bad neutral AND one of the worst disadvantage states in the game should be enough for people to understand this.

Sorry you almost got me.
i didn't knew you where talking about and not .

I totally agree that Roy disaventage state is horrible. But saying he have a bad Neutral is kind of wrong. YES he don't have Cloud,Diddy,Sheik,Fox and Mario Level of Neutral Game. But he can still keep up with a pressure game based from Jab,D-tilt,Up-b and OOS Up-b.

And i still think he have a great adventage state where he can't let the opponent breath or trying to escape. Whenever it's with N-air String, F-air, F-throw tech chase etc...

It's not the best neutral game in the game and it's far , really far from it but saying it's bad is for me at least totally wrong.

Also for a lot of people here that might think i'm totally biased and that Roy is the SEKRET TOP TIERS OF ZE DOOM. No. Not at all. What i'm saying is that Just that when he was released people overhyped him way too much, and now underestimate him way too much. He's just a fine Mid- Low-Mid character. He have his Pro and his Cons that's all.

Cloud's disadvantage would be fine but his recovery hurts him a lot. He does however get Limit from being hit which is a huge bonus and he also has great landing options along with a frame 5 combo breaker in nair, if he were to have a get out of jail free card his disadvantage would be on par with Bayonetta's

Pretty sure that the N-air Frame 5 Combo Breaker is situational as **** since the N-air hitbox came from behind First.

Also something that bother me a lot when i see Cloud set is...

Why Cloud player never use Neutral-b a la and side b ?

It does add some recovery mix-up and also add to the distance where cloud can recover. While protecting the ledge.

Ness disadvantage is pretty bad, the only thing that keeps it from being one of the worst in the game is his amazing airdodge and his nair

Yeah. I'm gladd we agree on this... His Nair is god-like.

 

[Megamang]

Ryo likes Roy in some MUs because the nair and the jab are really safe on shield, meaning Roy can go in really hard. This is especially relevant if you have a slow or short standing grab.

I wouldn't say this gives him 'one of the worst' neutrals. He is pretty fast too, and has a disjoint. His neutral is mediocre-at-worst. He suffers in disadvantage and in some MUs suffers really bad from being gimped or camped, but in general his neutral isn't a huge problem.

Except vs other disjoints, when his range and lack of reward-at-range becomes a problem.


I don't play Roy much or really have much exp against him, but this is what I gathered from watching Ryo and just generally looking at his frame data. I'd also argue his advantage can be quite strong, since pivot f-smash and later pivot f-tilt kill stupid early and silly early, respectively.


TheGoodGuava He can space in neutral. It has a low reward, which is terrible if you trade and can be a slow progress, but it keeps him safe. It also starts to set up at higher percentages. I think I saw Ryo land landing soft nair -> ftilt kills, and if you can airdodge that or jump it probably means you'll get fsmashed or jump-fair'd... Any roy is probably faster than you in the air.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Sorry you almost got me.
i didn't knew you where talking about and not .

I totally agree that Roy disaventage state is horrible. But saying he have a bad Neutral is kind of wrong. YES he don't have Cloud,Diddy,Sheik,Fox and Mario Level of Neutral Game. But he can still keep up with a pressure game based from Jab,D-tilt,Up-b and OOS Up-b.

And i still think he have a great adventage state where he can't let the opponent breath or trying to escape. Whenever it's with N-air String, F-air, F-throw tech chase etc...

It's not the best neutral game in the game and it's far , really far from it but saying it's bad is for me at least totally wrong.

Also for a lot of people here that might think i'm totally biased and that Roy is the SEKRET TOP TIERS OF ZE DOOM. No. Not at all. What i'm saying is that Just that when he was released people overhyped him way too much, and now underestimate him way too much. He's just a fine Mid- Low-Mid character. He have his Pro and his Cons that's all..

I'm not even joking. He can't space like a normal swordie (which is what their neutrals basically rely off of) and doesn't have good enough frame data to be played like a brawler. Up b is not an option in the neutral, its not safe and can lead to some pretty disgusting punishes. His only real tools in the neutral are jab and nair, and because of how his hitboxes work he has to go in, something a swordie isn't meant to do. He isn't underrated, hes just bad. Its going to be just like how melee was, all the Roy players saying hes good when he really isn't

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Watching VSGC. Most notable moments so far:

-Purple Guy's Zelda beat Xaltis' Rosalina 2-0, getting a two stock each time
-Ryo faced PPG Josh's Diddy, lost a match with Corrin, then brought it back with 2 straight Roy wins

Back the hell up. A Zelda double 2-stocked a Rosalina? I simply must see this in action. Links?

View attachment 105466

Sinjis Match-up chart

Sinji along with me and some other pacmans thinks that Rosa is even or better while everyone else that has never seen a Pacman with match-up Xp thinks Rosa is god awful. Also he thinks Sheik is even post patch. He also thinks we beat Fox, Pika, Corrin and Villy. Zss and Mk as worst match-ups? I've never really had a problem with MK and Zss is only bad if she plays really defensive. We lose to Marth but Lucina is good for us? Most of us agree that Cloud is our worst so I Would like some explantions for some of these. @Sinji

I know Pac-Man players love to tout Power Pellet healing as the answer to Rosalina, but honestly? Compared to getting pummeled with fruit and hydrants, not to mention the crazy traps and setups Pac-Man can do with said fruit and hydrant, the ability to give all that a giant middle finger at the cost of 2% healing for Pac-Man is a trade I will take every time. That's literally a single jab, hardly a gamechanger.

Random thought: Would GP be of any use for dealing with z-drop shenanigans?

I'd say the best time to use the hydrant is when you're above Rosalina. She can't oneshot it with uair, and the hitboxes won't cancel it because Luma is Luma and Rosalina's ring is transcendent. So her options are to GP (punishable if you're close enough, and I mean actual damage not Power Pellet healing), airdodge (which means it still hits Luma), or GTFO (yay, you have some stage control).

Worth noting, Rosalina really doesn't want to hold on to fruit for very long since she can't control Luma with anything other than specials while she has an item in hand. That's Luma Shot and Star Bits. Not exactly threatening. The upshot to this is that Pac-Man doesn't really have to worry about Rosalina hogging his fruit for long.

I won't pretend to have any high level Pac-Man experience, but given what I know about their tools and my own likely reactions, I'd call it slight advantage to Rosalina at best, but I can accept even as well.

 

[FullMoon]

I think the reason Sinji has Greninja as a losing MU is that Venia has had a winning streak against him for a while now I believe

Not that I don't think we don't win the MU though, my experience with it leads to me think Greninja does pretty well against Pac.

 

[Nekoo]

I'm not even joking. He can't space like a normal swordie (which is what their neutrals basically rely off of) and doesn't have good enough frame data to be played like a brawler. Up b is not an option in the neutral, its not safe

So at this moment i guess we should stop trying to class character into some archetype if people don't seem to know how to play them.
It's almost like people who want to play Roy like Marth in Melee.
Roy Gameplan isn't to space like a swordie. Nor it's to goes All Out like some brawler. If at this moment you think Roy is played like that. You will have a really bad time with Mid-level/High Level Roy.
Like i said. He's not sekret Top Tiers. He's just a low /mid that people should stop to underestimate.
And thanks Megamang you put it better than me with my broken english.

RosaLuma Vs Pac-Man MU

I mostly think like you. But i'll Put a slight Adventage for Rosaluma, Pac-man will still have a rought time to get pass Luma who will absorb his projectile or Rosalina who can attract them.

 

[TurboLink]

RE: Link vs. Pac-Man

I think Sinji's optimism stems from the fact that Hydrant does a good job at blocking Link's camping game.
None of his projectiles one-shot the Hydrant, which gives Pac-Man the chance to set-up an approach (either through launching the Hydrant after it's been hit or through Fruit)
So as a camper, Link loses 7-3

But a Link knowing the matchup probably won't play as a full-on camper.

Yet the Toon Link matchup is even? I can't take this Sinji guy seriously.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

So at this moment i guess we should stop trying to class character into some archetype if people don't seem to know how to play them.
It's almost like people who want to play Roy like Marth in Melee.
Roy Gameplan isn't to space like a swordie. Nor it's to goes All Out like some brawler. If at this moment you think Roy is played like that. You will have a really bad time with Mid-level/High Level Roy.
Like i said. He's not sekret Top Tiers. He's just a low /mid that people should stop to underestimate.
And thanks Megamang you put it better than me with my broken english.



I mostly think like you. But i'll Put a slight Adventage for Rosaluma, Pac-man will still have a rought time to get pass Luma who will absorb his projectile or Rosalina who can attract them.

Then tell me comrade, how is Roy supposed to be played? Swordie frame data, brawler hitboxes. He is not a middle ground between the two. He can put on pressure in the neutral but cannot win the neutral against most characters, and when he loses the neutral he most likely loses the stock. That is why most people consider him low tier

 

[BunbUn129]

So at this moment i guess we should stop trying to class character into some archetype if people don't seem to know how to play them.
It's almost like people who want to play Roy like Marth in Melee.
Roy Gameplan isn't to space like a swordie. Nor it's to goes All Out like some brawler. If at this moment you think Roy is played like that. You will have a really bad time with Mid-level/High Level Roy.
Like i said. He's not sekret Top Tiers. He's just a low /mid that people should stop to underestimate.
And thanks Megamang you put it better than me with my broken english.





I mostly think like you. But i'll Put a slight Adventage for Rosaluma, Pac-man will still have a rought time to get pass Luma who will absorb his projectile or Rosalina who can attract them.

People don't want to play Roy the same way they play Marth. Roy is just bad in this game because he wants to be aggressive and play more like a brawler, but basically has Marth's moveset, who is spacing-oriented. Roy wants to fight up close, but suffers from a 17-frame dash-to-shield, bad air acceleration, and below average frame data, along with a lack of auto-cancels. Your typical sword-character, Marth, wants to fight you at range to compensate for his high ending lag and low-duration arcs. Roy suffers from those same issues, but lacks the range and tipper to counter-balance them. This balance between range, active frames, and ending lag for swordies is one reason why Cloud is so bonkers--he excels at all three of them, which makes him basically the opposite of Roy.

 

[Nu~]

Back the hell up. A Zelda double 2-stocked a Rosalina? I simply must see this in action. Links?


I know Pac-Man players love to tout Power Pellet healing as the answer to Rosalina, but honestly? Compared to getting pummeled with fruit and hydrants, not to mention the crazy traps and setups Pac-Man can do with said fruit and hydrant, the ability to give all that a giant middle finger at the cost of 2% healing for Pac-Man is a trade I will take every time. That's literally a single jab, hardly a gamechanger.

Random thought: Would GP be of any use for dealing with z-drop shenanigans?

I'd say the best time to use the hydrant is when you're above Rosalina. She can't oneshot it with uair, and the hitboxes won't cancel it because Luma is Luma and Rosalina's ring is transcendent. So her options are to GP (punishable if you're close enough, and I mean actual damage not Power Pellet healing), airdodge (which means it still hits Luma), or GTFO (yay, you have some stage control).

Worth noting, Rosalina really doesn't want to hold on to fruit for very long since she can't control Luma with anything other than specials while she has an item in hand. That's Luma Shot and Star Bits. Not exactly threatening. The upshot to this is that Pac-Man doesn't really have to worry about Rosalina hogging his fruit for long.

I won't pretend to have any high level Pac-Man experience, but given what I know about their tools and my own likely reactions, I'd call it slight advantage to Rosalina at best, but I can accept even as well.

Sinji and I both dislike the power pellet method. Instead, he (and I, before I dropped pac) opt for a more offensive style of play. The key is to fight in mid range where GP is unsafe. Pick up whatever fruit rosa GPs, then punish her lag. Dair is our best friend since it sends Luma into tumble and hydrants from above stop uair juggles.

Rosa has better hitboxes overall which lead me to believe that rosa has the slight advantage, but it isn't the slaughterfest that many low level pacmen like to preach.

 

[Nekoo]

RE: Link vs. Pac-Man

I think Sinji's optimism stems from the fact that Hydrant does a good job at blocking Link's camping game.
None of his projectiles one-shot the Hydrant, which gives Pac-Man the chance to set-up an approach (either through launching the Hydrant after it's been hit or through Fruit)
So as a camper, Link loses 7-3

But a Link knowing the matchup probably won't play as a full-on camper.

So. In what kind of strange world. A normal Link Player will try to camp against Pac-man of all character?
And i don't talk about For Glory Link. I talk about a Link who know what he have to do. Because as much as i know Character MU spreed are optimist. But here it's not believable and almost laughable. Especialy when he make Tlink as Even.

Then tell me comrade, how is Roy supposed to be played? Swordie frame data, brawler hitboxes. He is not a middle ground between the two. He can put on pressure in the neutral but cannot win the neutral against most characters, and when he loses the neutral he most likely loses the stock. That is why most people consider him low tier

>Say he have swordie frame data.
>Say he have brawler Hitboxes
>Say he's not a middle ground between the two

Roy is basically a High Risk, High Reward swordies character and have every tool to show this design idea, whenever it's his hitbox,frame data,weight,speed etc... He's here to put pressure while mixing thing up with changing constently with a sword spacing gameplay and a brawler gameplay to surprise his oppenent and caught them off guard. Whenever it's with spaced D-tilt to poke shield to then punish then with a jab the moment they try to counter attack. To his great juggle game.

The problem with the High Reward... well it's the High Risk. Roy will have a HARD time if he lose the pressure and will a lot of time lose a stock. And i totally agree with his cons.

And the problem with his design is well... the inclusion of Cloud who kind of steal his design while having a great trump card. And the fact that while Marth,Lucina and Ike got buffed well. He kind of miss the train and just got some well received frame in less during his aerial. That's all.

And i totally agree that he's Low-tiers. But no way he's Bottom 5 like people said some pages ago.