Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Nekoo]

Pikachu Topic will be the Fight Club Rules of this thread.

Also...

It's me or a lot of time people a too much optimist about their Character MU spread?

Like it look like they only thing about what their character can do against another character...Without thinking about what the other character can do against their.

Except when it's Bayonetta.

When it's Bayonetta it's in the other way.

What a bizarro World.

 

[jespoke]

Regarding patches...

1.1.0 - July 30th, 2015
1.1.1 - September 30th, 2015
1.1.2 - October 8th, 2015
1.1.3 - December 15th, 2015
1.1.4 - February 3rd, 2016
1.1.5 - March 15th, 2016

They've generally come in intervals of 1 to 3 months. How long would it take without a patch before everyone called it in and accepted the current state as the final version of the game?

That schedule is so much more consistent than i thought, all of the last few balance patches (1.1.2 was bugfix) have fallen in the middle of the 1st or 3rd week of a month, with 1½ - 2½ months separating them.

If they continue that pattern, we might see a patch May 4th, May 18th or June 1st. If we reach June without a patch we can begin to speculate there won't be more patches.

 

[Jams.]

ROB is 12th in overall results BTW

He has a very strong regional presence I don't see talked about a lot. Big-name R.O.B. mains using him seem to often make 5th-3rd.

I'd really like to see ROB succeed on a national level before heralding his viability, as ROB is pretty far behind his upper mid tier/high tier compatriots on that front. 8BitMan is back to focusing on Smash, and Ontario and Quebec are starting to host larger events again which Holy can compete at, so I'm hopeful that a ROB breakthrough at a major can happen this Summer. It also bugs me that ROB is mostly nonexistent in Japan, when they pioneered the ROB metagame later in Brawl and early on in Smash 4.

He also has potential as a Bayonetta counter based on results, but basically every ROB player will disagree with this.

 

[PK Gaming]

I've put some time into Corrin, especially lately to see if she can actually cover some of Ike's less fun MUs, and I really have to agree that this character is low key kinda gross. Yeah, run speed is bad, but he can still pull out some silly chains with those stupid hit boxes. Just stay in basically a range where you can maybe follow up off of stupid Nair or whatever but also around the edge of the range where frame 4 Dragon Lunge or short hop dragon Lunge can snipe people.

Really though, his Nair has almost as many active frames as Ike's with ridiculous coverage. The character might as well as be a imagined as just a block of active hit box that wanders around the stage at a relaxed speed. And pivot Fsmash is stupid. Character for sure has some disadvantaged MUs, but it may not matter when Corrin is basically the Smash equivalent of a sea urchin.

lol

 

[Das Koopa]

lol

til corrin is also a hitbox spider

 

[NegaNixx]

This isn't directed at you specifically, rather, at the entire thread but why is discussion about Pikachu perceived as annoying? With Greninja, there are at least 4 regulars here I believe that main or at least post a lot about Greninja. MK and M2 get a lot of mention too. I don't believe any regular poster here has Pikachu listed as their main and yet whenever the character is brought up, it's always followed by negativity.

I've lurked here enough to see the Pika discussion brought up numerous times and the most I can see as annoying is the debate over uthrow -> rar thunder. Maybe his tier placement and Esam's optimism over the character has something to do with it? Honestly, with the general feelings this thread has towards Pikachu, I'm surprised anything related to Esam is ever brought up. Most people tend to agree that his opinions are too optimistic.

I believe the reason is not the regularity of the topic but just the overall knowledge and feel.
We have 3/4 regular Greninja mains, that means when we have Greninja talks it's going to be with people who know about the character more intimately in practice.
We have the same amount of MK mains (+1 if you include me but I lurk). Pikachu in this thread is all theory, and more negative theory than positive. It gets annoying when there's few people shallowly following the results the argument doesn't really lead to advancements like Greninja and to a lesser extent MK does. We talk about Mewtwo because of pound and the fact that @Mew - 2Chainz is a pretty swell guy, so the conversations are more of a positive feel.

Speaking of advancements.

What have top level Sheik's been doing to commons are for the lowered grab game? I feel playing a more smothering playstyle, staying more just out of tilt range. I saw a while ago that VoiD was using N-Air and reads after Throws, has that been useful at all?

 

[Megamang]

Any corrin mains want to say what their losing MUs are?


Personally I would think zoners would be a natural problem, they have a gameplan that isn't based around her not pressing the right button and generally don't care about disjoints as much, they love mobility advantages (villy is faster than you? Good luck), and they are often good edgeguarders, esp Vs corrin (disjointed edgeguard is super useful against her)... So, my thoughts are Megaman, Villager? (Dunno, he doesn't like good buttons beating out his stuff so... eeeh) greninja, shiek? (rage + kill throw hurts her here).... Sonic? (Mobility differential too big!) Captain(Dashgrab?)

 

[PK Gaming]

Any corrin mains want to say what their losing MUs are?


Personally I would think zoners would be a natural problem, they have a gameplan that isn't based around her not pressing the right button and generally don't care about disjoints as much, they love mobility advantages (villy is faster than you? Good luck), and they are often good edgeguarders, esp Vs corrin (disjointed edgeguard is super useful against her)... So, my thoughts are Megaman, Villager? (Dunno, he doesn't like good buttons beating out his stuff so... eeeh) greninja, shiek? (rage + kill throw hurts her here).... Sonic? (Mobility differential too big!) Captain(Dashgrab?)

She has several -1s against the top tiers.

Diddy is her worst matchup... it's pretty rough, but it's Diddy so it was expected. She also loses to Sheik, Fox and Sonic, but not too badly imo. Bayonetta is a Bayonetta.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Anyone else perfectly okay with how good Mewtwo has gotten? I dunno. I feel like he finally makes sense as a fighter in Smash now. Mewtwo is an incredibly strong pokemon with semi weak defenses and no true counters in the Pokemon games so it just makes sense to me that he's gone from the second worst to possibly best Pokemon in this game.

 

[Locke 06]

Corrin has KO power near where most zoners want to be. If a character is careless at mid-range and presses buttons, tipper Fsmash will mess you up.

Zoners have low reward in general from mid-range to make up for having buttons that are effective there. Corrin's fsmash should be featured in all of those matchups.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Anyone else perfectly okay with how good Mewtwo has gotten? I dunno. I feel like he finally makes sense as a fighter in Smash now. Mewtwo is an incredibly strong pokemon with semi weak defenses and no true counters in the Pokemon games so it just makes sense to me that he's gone from the second worst to possibly best Pokemon in this game.

I'll be okay with it when they make Ike like he was in the FE games - as fast as he is strong (and strong he is!), while healing himself every time he hits someone with Aether, and shooting lasers out of Ragnell. For good measure, make Shulk's range twice as long.

(Seriously though I get what you're saying and I agree. Mewtwo feels a lot more like Mewtwo now than he did on release. I think dash speed buffs helped with that more than anything else.)

 

[HeavyLobster]

Can you send a bigger picture or link me to the post please?

http://smashboards.com/attachments/mikekirbymatchupspread-png.105221/

 

[Aaron1997]

Part 5 is out

TL/DW

John Numbers
Nicko
2Manycooks
C-Lu
Tea
Scatt
6WX
Abadango
Taiheita
All Might/Static Manny (same player)

 

[Luco]

Pikachu Topic will be the Fight Club Rules of this thread.

Also...

It's me or a lot of time people a too much optimist about their Character MU spread?

Like it look like they only thing about what their character can do against another character...Without thinking about what the other character can do against their.

Except when it's Bayonetta.

When it's Bayonetta it's in the other way.

What a bizarro World.

It's a natural phenomenon.

People have more intricate and intimate experience with their own characters and tend to rate their tools highly unless proven otherwise. That and, we all want our mains to be good. Makes us feel nice and stuff.

It also tends to happen more with newer peeps. It just so happens smash 4 scene is full of fresh blood.

Optimism becomes rarer the older you go, as a general trend. Not that it's all doom and gloom. Older folk still have the same passion for the game.

 

[Nintenpro]

About the Bayonetta-Greninja Match up:
Elexiao vs Devskil
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bWyuQv9vt0

Bayo seems like a normal smash character against Greninja

 

[Trifroze]

Thank you for giving a real reason. I'd add that a lot of those problems you listed apply to ZSS, but do you feel she makes up for it with better disadvantage? Because thats the one I cannot deny, his disadvantage isn't great. f8 counter, fast jabs, shadow sneak, and great mobility make it manageable, as well as a strong neutral and a kit that grows extremely terrifying with rage. Correct rage, you get uthrow uair kill confirms, as well as utilt uair killing earlier and earlier.

All I would add to Trifroze' points is that ZSS shares many of the same weaknesses as Greninja, but they haven't held her back. Both characters have some very good (though very different) strengths that let them compensate for their weaknesses. Greninja's weaknesses aren't so bad that his strengths aren't enough to allow him a top 20 spot.

Out of the perceived similar weaknesses, ZSS has a frame 5 OoS option that has jab range on the ground, does 17% fresh and kills so OoS options aren't actually a problem for her, she just needs to know when she has a punish at her hands and when she doesn't. You could say Greninja has much safer burst so he doesn't have to stay in shield as much as ZSS since he can approach better, but purely in terms of OoS problems ZSS doesn't really share Greninja's pain.

ZSS' rising aerial game is almost as bad as Greninja's at first glance, but she has autocancels and better aerial accel for safer air to air reads plus her falling aerials are sort of overtuned to compensate as well. Zair kind of does what Greninja's uncharged shurikens do, except zair has less range and sets up into grab / bair (or fair) 50:50s.

Aside from that, flip jump is a big deal like mentioned, often being a free reset to neutral from anything that isn't a true combo or very close to one. With that said though true combos and mixups like Mario's 40-60% bull**** hurt ZSS considerably more due to her lower weight.

Still, even ZSS seems to be experiencing some struggle now. She used to get a lot of stuff for free due to incorrect DI and people trying to shieldgrab her nair all the time, but now she doesn't, people are staying grounded and powershielding more, and the nerfs don't help either. How well she overcomes this counterplay remains to be seen though. I don't doubt Greninja is probably somewhere in the 15th-25th range, but I'd be surprised if he turned out to be any better than that.

 

[Krysco]

I believe the reason is not the regularity of the topic but just the overall knowledge and feel.
We have 3/4 regular Greninja mains, that means when we have Greninja talks it's going to be with people who know about the character more intimately in practice.
We have the same amount of MK mains (+1 if you include me but I lurk). Pikachu in this thread is all theory, and more negative theory than positive. It gets annoying when there's few people shallowly following the results the argument doesn't really lead to advancements like Greninja and to a lesser extent MK does. We talk about Mewtwo because of pound and the fact that @Mew - 2Chainz is a pretty swell guy, so the conversations are more of a positive feel.

Speaking of advancements.

What have top level Sheik's been doing to commons are for the lowered grab game? I feel playing a more smothering playstyle, staying more just out of tilt range. I saw a while ago that VoiD was using N-Air and reads after Throws, has that been useful at all?

Yeah, I thought that would be part of the problem. Even when the frequent posters don't know much about a character, like say someone comes in and asks how Olimar is doing, we can tag someone in like Myran and get the up and up of Olimar and where his metagame is. Pikachu doesn't even get that benefit since Esam doesn't come to this site often and honestly, even if he did, I feel it wouldn't do much since very few people are on board with his Pika optimism.

The best Pika has are the lurkers who use him and they're less credible than a PR'd player.

But I don't get why so much of the theory around Pika has to be negative. Sure, he has flaws. Enough of them that he's most likely not top 5 and possibly not even top 10 or even 15. But he IS viable, I feel Esam has proven that. And maybe this is just me overthinking something that isn't actually an issue but this is the tier list thread. People are gonna come here to find out who is viable and who isn't and any new blood or any one indecisive on who to main will likely pick a viable character. Pikachu already has a representation issue and with all of the negativity surrounding him in here, it's unlikely anyone who comes in here looking to get a viable main will pick Pika which is a shame.

I'll say it again, if there is nothing worth discussing at a certain time about Pika, then by all means, talk about someone relevant or someone you're curious about. But if Pika ever comes up, I'd personally like the conversation to end with something that isn't along the lines of 'to get away from this cancerous Pika talk, here's new topic X'.

 

[Empyrean]

I feel people overblow Corrin's mobility issue a bit too much and make it sound like she can barely move around the stage (not directed at anyone in particular btw).

Granted, her mobility is FAR from stellar, and she won't be winning any races vs the top runners. She also lacks a burst mobility option like Afterburner Kick, Flip Jump, etc (and no, Dragon Lunge kick does not count). Garbage walk acceleration, frame 6 jumpsquat, sluggish run speed, and all that jazz. Which is a good thing for balance, you absolutely DO NOT WANT a character that can passively threaten over 1/3rd of FD within 20 frames from a standing position to move around the stage like Mario or Sheik.

Here's the thing though: Corrin has some surprisingly good specs in key areas that allow her to close down small bursts of space faster than you'd expect:

• 7 frame dash to shield, even better than Sheik's
• An excellent initial dash to complement the above
• 21 frame foxtrot (not too far off Cloud's godlike 17 frame foxtrot)
• A fast skid animation (~10-15 frames, I can't frame count reliably with 30fps gfys) after her run, something Corrins should start exploiting more

Like I said, this character won't suddenly warp to your position from across the stage like Sonic or Falcon, but stats like what I described allow her to consistently invade your comfort zone and maintain dominance at mid range. Just imagine the heatmap PK Gaming posted above, practically mini-teleporting each time Corrin moves, closing down the gap between her and the opponent with relatively low commitment. Her dash specs are in stark contrast to her mediocre walk, something I find odd on a character like this. Her dash attack isn't particularly great either (although greatly disjointed) and her run speed is lacking, which leads me to believe that the dev team intended Corrin to only dash in small bursts, almost as if advancing one space at a time on a board game. (I've never played any Fire Emblem so idk if this is supposed to be like how the games play)

So yeah, I've rambled on longer than intended, and I repeat that this isn't targeted against anyone and neither am I trying to argue that her mobility is top tier, let alone high tier. I just don't believe it to be as big a liability as commonly perceived, rather a limiting factor that keeps the character in check while still blessing her with some neat tools.

TL;DR: Corrin is bad at covering large distances but surprisingly efficient when it comes to smaller spaces.

 

[NegaNixx]

Yeah, I thought that would be part of the problem. Even when the frequent posters don't know much about a character, like say someone comes in and asks how Olimar is doing, we can tag someone in like Myran and get the up and up of Olimar and where his metagame is. Pikachu doesn't even get that benefit since Esam doesn't come to this site often and honestly, even if he did, I feel it wouldn't do much since very few people are on board with his Pika optimism.

The best Pika has are the lurkers who use him and they're less credible than a PR'd player.

But I don't get why so much of the theory around Pika has to be negative. Sure, he has flaws. Enough of them that he's most likely not top 5 and possibly not even top 10 or even 15. But he IS viable, I feel Esam has proven that. And maybe this is just me overthinking something that isn't actually an issue but this is the tier list thread. People are gonna come here to find out who is viable and who isn't and any new blood or any one indecisive on who to main will likely pick a viable character. Pikachu already has a representation issue and with all of the negativity surrounding him in here, it's unlikely anyone who comes in here looking to get a viable main will pick Pika which is a shame.

I'll say it again, if there is nothing worth discussing at a certain time about Pika, then by all means, talk about someone relevant or someone you're curious about. But if Pika ever comes up, I'd personally like the conversation to end with something that isn't along the lines of 'to get away from this cancerous Pika talk, here's new topic X'.

Probably a result of the Dunning-Kruger Effect (had to re-learn the name) where the weak will constantly overrate themselves and the strong will constantly underrate themselves. It's ESAM's over glorification of the character that makes us have to bring things back to earth so all you'll hear is negative to balance out the positive from us, an external party.

As a foil example there's Diddy, where his mains constantly underrate him. And you'll hear a majority of positive things from us.

I think the character is definitely vials and has benefits and flaws that keep him on the higher echelons of the cast, in the high tier range. Because of the importance of his quality neutral and the matchup spread he has in theory. The lacking killing ability doesn't make him bad, it just doesn't make him fantastic.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Somehow this comment perfectly matches your Vegeta avatar.

LMFAO.

Yes indeed Europe is a place. It's a continent just west of Asia.

Seriously though, what's your point?

-dead- @ geographied

I'm really confused by your response, are you implying that europe is a weak region?

STILL BETTER THAN MFREE/VA!!!

You're totally right though

LOOOOOOOL. I was obv trolling. I just wanted to rustle up some jimmies. Wasn't hard. Europe is likely better then they were during brawl's era. Europe was fairly weak outside of a few good players.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Probably a result of the Dunning-Kruger Effect (had to re-learn the name) where the weak will constantly overrate themselves and the strong will constantly underrate themselves. It's ESAM's over glorification of the character that makes us have to bring things back to earth so all you'll hear is negative to balance out the positive from us, an external party.

As a foil example there's Diddy, where his mains constantly underrate him. And you'll hear a majority of positive things from us.

I think the character is definitely vials and has benefits and flaws that keep him on the higher echelons of the cast, in the high tier range. Because of the importance of his quality neutral and the matchup spread he has in theory. The lacking killing ability doesn't make him bad, it just doesn't make him fantastic.

then where would Bayonetta fit in this?

 

[juddy96]

Olimar.

Shuton got 2nd out of 200 with him at Umebura 22. Interestingly enough he did so after being knocked into losers in WR2 by a relatively unknown Cloud player named Yazawa. He then went on to plow his way through losers bracket beating shky [9th placing ZSS player], bAhuto [7th placing Mario bros player], kept [Villager who beat Abadango!], Kamemushi [MegaMan who beat 9B!] and Nietono [3rd placing Diddy Kong]. That's remarkable but like the majority of people I don't even understand the fundamentals of this character.

Yazawa aka Ryuji's 4th different tag in 4 Japanese tournaments is really good when he actually goes to stuff

 

[ZSaberLink]

EDIT: Yea, I'd add to kirby's list of advantaged things besides Nobie mentioned:
Intangible limbs (disjoints are hard to land on for a huge majority of the cast [ninja]), really powerful smashes that, while unsafe, are really quick to start (mostly thinking of f-smash power/startup)... if he gets inhale off he gets a nice advantage in most MUs, and this naturally will probably happen in advantage, since you aren't gonna just pop into an inhale in neutral, kill throws and combo throws, kill throw on platform (!). Thats all I can think of, i'm sure theres more.

A smash attack that starts at frame 13 is pretty quick? I always thought that was middle of the road at best. So Link's smash attack startup is quick then? (Frame 9 DSmash, Frame 10 USmash, slower Frame 15 FSmash)?

 

[Trela]

Yazawa aka Ryuji's 4th different tag in 4 Japanese tournaments is really good when he actually goes to stuff

So Ryuji does still play after all.

I know it may not mean much now, but he was the best Diddy I've ever played. Wonder why he switched to Cloud.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

He still plays Diddy, he just uses Cloud more now. Don't ask me why though.

 

[LancerStaff]

A smash attack that starts at frame 13 is pretty quick? I always thought that was middle of the road at best. So Link's smash attack startup is quick then? (Frame 9 DSmash, Frame 10 USmash, slower Frame 15 FSmash)?

An Fsmash at f13 is pretty quick since the fastest is f10. Fsmash at 15 is kinda average, but then U and D smashes at 9 and 10 is more on the slow side I think...

My opinions on this kind of thing are sorta askew because Pit's smashes are faster then many character's tilts, lol.

 

[ZSaberLink]

An Fsmash at f13 is pretty quick since the fastest is f10. Fsmash at 15 is kinda average, but then U and D smashes at 9 and 10 is more on the slow side I think...

My opinions on this kind of thing are sorta askew because Pit's smashes are faster then many character's tilts, lol.

Well i was looking it up, and Link's frame 10 USmash is 19th out of all the characters. I haven't looked at FSmashes though.

 

[NegaNixx]

then where would Bayonetta fit in this?

I feel Bayo mains constantly understate her. But it's also a case where non-Bayo mains will extremely overstate her as well. It's hard to really describe her because her design as a character is so polarizing. I feel like the mains try to down play her benefits while the non mains try to overhype them. With few sides looking at the things that make her flaws as a character.

I'm gonna use @Ghostbone as an example.

A few pages back he was defending Bayo as fair through looking at her average combo damage over the course of a match. Other Sources have chimed in with DI and SDI charts for her combod. The whole argument about Bayo has to do with her advantage state.

So I guess the answer would be that Mains undersell Ladder combos and non-mains oversell them. Because we're talking about them, not the character that has access to them.

 

[Illuminose]

Yazawa aka Ryuji's 4th different tag in 4 Japanese tournaments is really good when he actually goes to stuff

What were his other tags?

 

[Asdioh]

lol

Where did this come from, and are there more of them? I mentioned this many many months ago, but I've always wanted to see stuff like this for Smash 4. The example I used at the time was Sheik, because obviously she has a lot of fast moves, and Needles especially come out fast and go very far, so they'd be extra hilarious on a heatmap like this. ...then they got nerfed!

An Fsmash at f13 is pretty quick since the fastest is f10. Fsmash at 15 is kinda average, but then U and D smashes at 9 and 10 is more on the slow side I think...

My opinions on this kind of thing are sorta askew because Pit's smashes are faster then many character's tilts, lol.

Yeah, Pit's smashes are hella fast. http://pastebin.com/NJ4Q5PzU I still have this ancient pastebin in my history, and it's mostly accurate, though it's from before DLC times. Still, it lets you scroll down and see outliers. Kirby's frame 13 Fsmash is in the upper echelon of speed, with only a few being frame 10, and the other fast ones being 11-13. His frame 14 Upsmash is in the middle/slower tiers of speed, when a bunch of frame 5-9 Upsmashes exist. His frame 10 Dsmash is definitely slow, but when you compare it to Dsmashes that hit on both sides at once, it's not too slow, only beaten out by Fox, Peach, (6) Falco, ROB (7) Pikachu, Wario (8) and tied with Bowser's 10.

However... thanks to the random knockback increases Kirby has received from multiple patches, his smashes are insanely strong now. I'm even starting to feel like I get KOs at fraudulent percents now, and that never happened before. These buffs added up. His Dsmash is significantly stronger than all of the ones mentioned above, except maybe Bowser's. His Upsmash is on the slow side, but its sweetspot definitely KOs earlier than Mario, Fox, Pikachu, all those Upsmashes that are notoriously used to end stocks for those characters, and have similar animations/applications. Dsmash and Upsmash both have intangible feet, making them 2 of his only 3 foot-attacks with intangibility, the other being Uptilt. They're all great anti-airs, and ironically I used Dsmash to catch people more often than Upsmash, because the faster speed, and surprisingly high hitbox make it more reliable. Fsmash is strong, but nothing insane, because there are a lot of strong Fsmashes in this game.
The tradeoff for having these smashes with great speedower ratios is that all of them are extremely unsafe on shield, with the exception of Upsmash, which is only somewhat unsafe, woohoo.

A smash attack that starts at frame 13 is pretty quick? I always thought that was middle of the road at best. So Link's smash attack startup is quick then? (Frame 9 DSmash, Frame 10 USmash, slower Frame 15 FSmash)?

So yeah, Link's startup on smashes is actually quite good, considering they're all extremely strong, and are sword attacks. Upsmash especially.

 

[FullMoon]

Speaking of Smash speed, Trifroze mentioned that Greninja's are sluggish but the only really slow one is D-Smash?

Up-Smash is frame 12 and F-Smash is frame 13. Up-Smash is only 1 frame slower than Sheik's and it actually has a little less endlag, F-Smash is the same speed as Fox's and one frame later than Diddy's.

D-Smash is frame 16 but there's a reason Greninja mains rarely use it lol

Edit: Ok looking it up his Up-Smash is pretty slow for Up-Smash standards, there's a lot more frame 10 or less Up-Smashes a lot than I thought

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@how would you compare the endlag/FAF for Kirby's smashes compared to others? Also their safeness on shield?
Is it at least OK or decentish? There can't be that many characters who actually DO have safe smashes, so it's not like Kirby is really an exception.....right......RIGHT?

 

[Asdioh]

@how would you compare the endlag/FAF for Kirby's smashes compared to others? Also their safeness on shield?
Is it at least OK or decentish? There can't be that many characters who actually DO have safe smashes, so it's not like Kirby is really an exception.....right......RIGHT?

No not really. I also found this in my history https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r2VzoeB9AHdw6c4x967VKDwLIVteGW-9S6JMnMOvwHg/edit which somebody made sometime! Surprisingly, Mario is the first that comes to mind for smash attack safety, but none of his were listed in there. I just did control+F "smash" and looked around, there are more in there than I expected. Most of them are extreme examples though, like the 2nd hit of certain Dsmashes, and the very tip of certain Fsmashes. I believe there is another google doc, possibly made by Shaya? with even more numbers and stuff, but I'm not sure where to find it.

But like.. Kirby's forward and down smashes seem exceptionally unsafe on shield. Fsmash, because he lunges himself into the opponent, making it extremely convenient for them to punish him. There are very few Fsmashes that noticeably push the user forward (Link/TL are the only ones that come to mind right away) and Fsmashes that "pull back" before launching the attack (such as Mario and Sonic) are generally much more useful. And Kirby's Dsmash is unsafe simply because it has the highest FAF of his smashes, with 40 frames of lag after the hitboxes end... but that's pretty standard, as far as Dsmashes like his go.

D-Smash is frame 16 but there's a reason Greninja mains rarely use it lol

Despite the startup, my bigger annoyance with it is the horrible deadzone in the middle. Same with his Fsmash, to a lesser extent. Ugh.

 

[FullMoon]

Despite the startup, my bigger annoyance with it is the horrible deadzone in the middle. Same with his Fsmash, to a lesser extent. Ugh.

I actually rarely have that deadzone pop up in a match, F-Smash's happens way more often in my experience.

 

[Trifroze]

Speaking of Smash speed, Trifroze mentioned that Greninja's are sluggish but the only really slow one is D-Smash?

Up-Smash is frame 12 and F-Smash is frame 13. Up-Smash is only 1 frame slower than Sheik's and it actually has a little less endlag, F-Smash is the same speed as Fox's and one frame later than Diddy's.

D-Smash is frame 16 but there's a reason Greninja mains rarely use it lol

Edit: Ok looking it up his Up-Smash is pretty slow for Up-Smash standards, there's a lot more frame 10 or less Up-Smashes a lot than I thought

Sluggish may not have been the best word choice regardless, I should have used average or mediocre instead. I was also referring to endlag though as it's often just as important as startup. Fox's usmash is frame 8 and dsmash frame 6 for example, but he really can't be throwing them out a lot because of how laggy they are, yet calling them sluggish would be completely misleading. For Greninja it's more appropriate, but still a bit inaccurate. I guess fast/slow and laggy/lagless work best, and Greninja is kind of in the middle in both fields.

 

[PK Gaming]

Where did this come from, and are there more of them? I mentioned this many many months ago, but I've always wanted to see stuff like this for Smash 4. The example I used at the time was Sheik, because obviously she has a lot of fast moves, and Needles especially come out fast and go very far, so they'd be extra hilarious on a heatmap like this. ...then they got nerfed!

Empyrean whipped one up for us at the Corrin boards. Can't say I've run into any other similar heatmaps.

 

[sedrf]

Any notable players attending eglx/north west majors for smash 4 or is it just midwest mayhem this weekend?

 

[juddy96]

Any notable players attending eglx/north west majors for smash 4 or is it just midwest mayhem this weekend?

NWM is PNW players only (Cacogen, Big D, Captain L, etc)
EGLX is mostly Toronto players

Japan is where its at this weekend with Kurobura 1 and KSB 2016

 

[Yikarur]

Edit: Ok looking it up his Up-Smash is pretty slow for Up-Smash standards, there's a lot more frame 10 or less Up-Smashes a lot than I thought

Most upsmashes hit in front of you.
Greninja targets the opponent above of it and if you keep that in mind his upsmash is really above average in terms of speed, range and ending lag.

 

[LancerStaff]

This has been bugging me since I saw the safety spreadsheet a few hours ago... This one: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1r2VzoeB9AHdw6c4x967VKDwLIVteGW-9S6JMnMOvwHg/edit?pref=2&pli=1#

Though I don't have the time, I'm not good with Smash math, and I'm not entirely sure about the mechanics at play, this could be a big thing against Bayonetta. Can you grab her during Bat Within frames on a roll? If not you can probably ignore this...

See, the spreadsheet notes that certain moves are so safe that you're required to dodge away or otherwise get grabbed. It loads weird on my phone and it's worded weird but Pit's Nair I believe is an example of one such move... Now if you can grab through Bat Within, then it's impossible for her to roll out of the situation. So then it'd come down to Witch Twist. Either A: It's not fast enough anyway or B: If it's patched to be slower, it definitely won't be. If you can't grab Bat Within... Well, RIP theory.