Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[C0rvus]

Who really cares about changing peoples' minds about certain characters? You aren't going to change stubborn peoples' minds about them, and why do you care anyway? If the character IS that good or bad, then someday it may become indisputably so. Sometimes I think people here need to focus on the game more than policing attitudes about characters you think are underrated.

Mewtwo was being ignored and then Abadango showed everyone the character has the stuff. The best way to get people to change their minds is through raw footage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Seriously guys who gives two ****s about showing people the truth of your character or w/e the **** you people jerk off too at night.

Study the game. Play the game. Advance the meta of the game.

**** the nonsense.

 

[HoSmash4]

Europe isn't a S tier region like SoCal/Tristate/Japan/Mexico. Being that we only have one heavy hitter in Ramin =(
One contender for second best in EU I studying got 25th at pound with a lot of west coast absentees so it's not looking good :/ granted Europe doesn't have as many opportunities to play each other because language and cost barriers but it is what it is

 

[ARISTOS]

Remember: most people are biased towards the US scene and act like it's the only one that matters, while the rest are backwaters inhabited by players who are supposedly forever doomed to be inferior to the player base America has to offer.

If you ever try to argue using results from Europe and Japan, you're fighting a battle that you probably aren't going to win.

The context behind results is just as important as the numerical number itself.

Aka why we ignore Minnesota results when talking about high level play.

The real question to ask is Europe better/equal/worse than US/Japan and the degree of the separation

 

[G. Stache]

Isn't THAT bad, Sonic and Luigi should switch imo

Bear in mind that Mike Kirby has an insane Luigi problem. Like, iirc, he lost to John Number's Luigi. And, all power to John Numbers as he's a really good player in general...but his Luigi just isn't exactly 'stellar'. MU charts are the respective thoughts of the player making them. Obviously Mike Kirby is going to rate Luigi as that bad since his experience vs Luigi has been awful.

Speaking of Luigi and MU charts, ConCon hinted at making a Luigi MU chart on his Twitter. Which sounds good. But if you thought I was optimistic, then I have a feeling you may be a bit taken a bit back from his views (his view on Luigi seems to be extremely hopeful from what I could gather). So if that ever comes out, I'll send a link out. I'd like to see what he actually thinks.

 

[Jams.]

I hate comparing regions, but since this topic has come up I'll try to add some objectivity to these claims.

I think a decently fair method for comparing the strength of Europe vs NA would be comparing ESAM's and MVD's performance at BEAST compared to their performance at various other NA events. I'll be using Smashwiki for this due to convenience; it's not the most comprehensive source, but it should be comprehensive enough to give an idea of how the continents stack up.

MVD

33rd/1096 | GENESIS 3 | January 15th-17th, 2016
17th/256~ | PAX Arena | January 29th-31st
Top 8 (event didn't finish)/400 | TGC 6 | February 6th, 2016
4th/267 | B.E.A.S.T 6 | February 19th-21st, 2016
13th/162 | Shots Fired 2 | March 5th-6th, 2016
9th/255 | Glitch | March 12th, 2016
17th/513 | Pound 2016 | April 2nd-3rd, 2016
2nd/192 | TGC 7 | April 9th, 2016

ESAM

17th/1096 | GENESIS 3 | January 15th-17th, 2016
7th/256~ | PAX Arena January 29th-31st, 2016
Top 8 | TGC 6 | February 6th, 2016
3rd/267 | B.E.A.S.T 6 | February 19th-21st, 2016
13th/162 | Shots Fired 2 | March 5th-6th, 2016
9th/513 | Pound 2016 | April 2nd-3rd, 2016
5th/192 | TGC 7 | April 9th, 2016

I think it's clear from these results that both ESAM and MVD placed noticeably better at BEAST than at NA majors (MVD more so). In terms of top level talent, I feel the data suggests BEAST is nowhere near the level of an American supermajor and is much more comparable to a large American regional like 2GGT or Glitch.

Something else I'd like to point out is that after iStudying's disappointing performance at Pound, we had multiple Greninja mains in this thread john for him citing jet lag. This is fair, it's impossible not to be exhausted after making such a long trip with such a significant time zone difference. There was no way iStudying was playing at 100%. On the other hand, I saw absolutely nobody give these same excuses to ESAM and MVD after their performance at BEAST, even though they were playing under the same conditions. Perhaps it's because they managed to place well regardless?

 

[Y2Kay]

Yeah I don't care that much about proving Greninja's worth or anything, Just thought I give the mighty Dabuz a dignified response.

If it takes a beat down for those to acknowledge Greninja, then so be it. Ain't my problem.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

So Mikekirby just posted his matchup spread.

He put in so many matchups as even lol.

My personal thoughts:

and aren't disadvantages. is even and is in our favor. Neither is that should be in even

HOW is and not in slight advantage? lol

Is even, not solidy in our favor.

Some characters are in even that imo should be in slight disadvantage. For example: . People constantly sleep on Duck Hunt. That matchup is in his favor. Some others should be moved to disadvantage too.

How is even? wowwww that matchup is sorta bad (sorta)

How come and are in differant parts? They're the same ratio for this matchup imo

Isn't THAT bad, Sonic and Luigi should switch imo

And obvisualy some other stuff too

Couple of things: I have never seen a top or a top put the Olimar MU in Kirby's favour.

is a huge personal struggle for Mike, and he's lost to a lot more Luigi's than Sonics, so I see why luigi's up there.

No tipper, tipper just ****s on Kirby.

I know you don't mean harm, but your post is saying "this is wrong im right" and you didn't really back up anything. If you're going to tell the best Kirby he's wrong at least explain lol

 

[Y2Kay]

Something else I'd like to point out is that after iStudying's disappointing performance at Pound, we had multiple Greninja mains in this thread john for him citing jet lag.

You mean the same way people where johning for top players that lost to Abadango's Mewtwo?

No greninja mains have been saying this, especially in this thread. I know for sure I haven't said this, because I didn't even know of this till I read your post.

Greninja mains aren't making excuses for themselves, we know that POUND performance wasn't the greatest.

 

[FullMoon]

You mean the same way people where johning for top players that lost to Abadango's Mewtwo?

No greninja mains have been saying this, especially in this thread. I know for sure I haven't said this, because I didn't even know of this till I read your post.

Greninja mains aren't making excuses for themselves, we know that POUND performance wasn't the greatest.

I'm pretty sure both me and bc have mentioned jetlag stuff before, although I didn't really mean it as an excuse as jetlag or not he still got 25th and that's what matters in the end.

 

[Jams.]

You mean the same way people where johning for top players that lost to Abadango's Mewtwo?

No greninja mains have been saying this, especially in this thread. I know for sure I haven't said this, because I didn't even know of this till I read your post.

Greninja mains aren't making excuses for themselves, we know that POUND performance wasn't the greatest.

Spoiler: Evidence.zip

Speaking of iStudying vs K9, the latter mentioned the former beating him in most of the friendlies they played. Sure, it's friendlies, but it shows that Greninja can deal with Sheik well now. If I remember right iStudying was also really tired during Pound because of timezone issues, so he wasn't quite in top shape for Pound (still got 25th tho)

Also N-Air -> Up-Smash by itself shouldn't make the Sheik MU even for Greninja, not only did it always work, trying to hit with it means you're effectively trying to land a frame 14 N-Air which has a fairly small hitbox, against someone like Sheik that's not going to happen very often unless you get a read.

The comeback factor is very real in that MU though.

How is 25th with solo Greninja decimated? iStudying ran into Greninja's two worst MUs early in bracket, and had been beating K9 in friendlies. And though I don't want to make this an excuse, he was badly jetlagged.

ESAM only got 17th with solo Pikachu. He used Corrin to beat Nakat and get 13th, and also used Corrin against Ally. Pre-top 16 I don't know to what extent ESAM was backing Pikachu up with his secondaries, but I know he used Yoshi in pools.

Don't call others out for chatting **** about a character they know nothing about if you're gonna do it yourself.

No offense to the quoted individuals, since they're both posters that positively contribute to this thread and that I respect. I just wanted to prove I wasn't making this up.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Couple of things: I have never seen a top or a top put the Olimar MU in Kirby's favour.

is a huge personal struggle for Mike, and he's lost to a lot more Luigi's than Sonics, so I see why luigi's up there.

No tipper, tipper just ****s on Kirby.

I know you don't mean harm, but your post is saying "this is wrong im right" and you didn't really back up anything. If you're going to tell the best Kirby he's wrong at least explain lol

I said that those were my thoughts, not that he was stupid and is defitenly wrong.

Also I know that he has a problem with Luigi but as I said, just my thoughts. I expected him to place him like that anyway due to his performances aganist John Numbers.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Lol Europe.

Somehow this comment perfectly matches your Vegeta avatar.

 

[jespoke]

Wintermelon43 I think you might be falling victim to the "They are low tier so we must beat them" trap on some of those matchups.

Kirby is a character that has trouble getting in but combos people once there. With that in mind I can definitely see why Mike would put the characters that thrive when running away from you as a bad matchup, along with other zoning matchups as even/disadvantage.

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm talking about onto the platform for the most part

Eh

I'll concede that it's kind of jank on Battlefield (you should always strike that stage against Corrin, lol), but the same principal applies. Just harder to defend against it, I guess.

Spoiler

Don't take Corrin to Battlefield

 

[Xinc]

I don't really feel like it's THAT hard, it's not Roy/Falcon levels of free but once you get used to the timing Corrin's recovery isn't terribly difficult to edgeguard.

I feel it tends to get difficult at more curved angles, but it's all about timing and anticipating when Corrin will collide into your face.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Even though it seems to has passed by a bit, top players that have been traveling for near a decade eventually doesn't care about jetlag due to the body getting used to all the climate changes.
Those two have been doing it since Brawl age so used to timezone differences, while istudying is Smash 4 only and I believe Pound was his first time flying out of country so yeah.

 

[Y2Kay]

Even though it seems to has passed by a bit, top players that have been traveling for near a decade eventually doesn't care about jetlag due to the body getting used to all the climate changes.
Those two have been doing it since Brawl age so used to timezone differences, while istudying is Smash 4 only and I believe Pound was his first time flying out of country so yeah.

yeah this was istudying's first tournament in America

 

[HeavyLobster]

So Mikekirby just posted his matchup spread.

He put in so many matchups as even lol.

My personal thoughts:

and aren't disadvantages. is even and is in our favor. Neither is that should be in even

HOW is and not in slight advantage? lol

Is even, not solidy in our favor.

Some characters are in even that imo should be in slight disadvantage. For example: . People constantly sleep on Duck Hunt. That matchup is in his favor. Some others should be moved to disadvantage too.

How is even? wowwww that matchup is sorta bad (sorta)

How come and are in differant parts? They're the same ratio for this matchup imo

Isn't THAT bad, Sonic and Luigi should switch imo

And obvisualy some other stuff too

Also Ganon-Kirby is the rare MU of Ganon's that's both actually played out often enough at a reasonably high level in the case of GanontheBeast vs Triple R to draw conclusions about it and actually has results favorable to Ganon. Should be thankful it's not just another "lol we beat Dorf 70-30," but theory says even to slightly in Dorf's favor and results lean to Dorf as well here.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Lol Europe.

STILL BETTER THAN MFREE/VA!!!

You're totally right though

 

[bc1910]

When he said shut up, he means just stop. He didn't say anything rude after that, and a "shut up lol" doesn't make the whole post wrong. Unless you can show us where Dabuz is wrong most of us can stick with it.

Saying that mid-conversation is like starting a conversation about cars and then telling someone you're sick of it. It's all good though.

The whole post isn't wrong, there are just some elements that I think are. I have responded to Dabuz privately and am happy to share my response with anyone interested - I was just conscious of the discussion getting too Greninja-heavy. Though anything is better than the honest vs dishonest discussion...

No offense to the quoted individuals, since they're both posters that positively contribute to this thread and that I respect. I just wanted to prove I wasn't making this up.

None taken - I would just add that my response was mostly in retaliation to the claim that iStudying had been "decimated" at Pound (whilst lauding ESAM's placing when it wasn't that much better). I don't make a secret of 25th being disappointing, but top 32 at a supermajor is still far from being decimated.

Also Ganon-Kirby is the rare MU of Ganon's that's both actually played out often enough at a reasonably high level in the case of GanontheBeast vs Triple R to draw conclusions about it and actually has results favorable to Ganon. Should be thankful it's not just another "lol we beat Dorf 70-30," but theory says even to slightly in Dorf's favor and results lean to Dorf as well here.

I also find this interesting. In terms of Ganon's MUs, the balloonweights do seem good for him. Regardless of their strength as characters, it's hard for them to get around the fact that a couple of mistakes against a character who deals as much raw damage and KB as Ganon is enough to end their stock. I've seen Ganon noted as an iffy (or just, not free) MU for Mewtwo.

 

[FullMoon]

Even though it seems to has passed by a bit, top players that have been traveling for near a decade eventually doesn't care about jetlag due to the body getting used to all the climate changes.
Those two have been doing it since Brawl age so used to timezone differences, while istudying is Smash 4 only and I believe Pound was his first time flying out of country so yeah.

iStudy also played Brawl but I'm not sure if he traveled back then.

No offense to the quoted individuals, since they're both posters that positively contribute to this thread and that I respect. I just wanted to prove I wasn't making this up.

Tbh I'm more surprised to hear that I actually contribute to something here other than chiming in sometimes when something Greninja relevant comes up lol

 

[Yikarur]

Beast 6's location was pretty impractical though. A lot of strong players (mainly from france) didn't attend and germany has the strongest average players in europe and there were only very few at Beast 6, because sweden is really hard to reach.
Additionally the bracket was faulty and no one noticed it. Mvd should've faced istudy in LQF already but the bracket was the wrong way arround. Esam could've ended in loser bracket very very early, but he did pull off a miracle comeback against vyQ's Mario.
And of course europe lacks pikachu experience overall anyway.

Then you should keep in mind that america has faaaaaaaaaaaaaaar more players and is a faaaar bigger region than the USA.
Of course mvd and esam place better when players like void, zero, Nairo dabuz and japanese top players are missing. Being Top4 in europe is probably the equivalent of getting Top16 at a super major in the USA just because of size and entrants differences

Saying "lol europe" is really stupid. I'm positive a some of europe's best players could place Top16 at a super major.

 

[Strong-Arm]

I feel like in general people take the easy route and label Ganon as a rofl we beat them no matter what character when that isnt particularly true. I do feel like in general people do that with low tiers despite the fact that they can indeed do stuff.

One question thats bugging me is whether or not this is the last patch for Smash 4, considering we havent gotten an update yet or anything.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

One question thats bugging me is whether or not this is the last patch for Smash 4, considering we havent gotten an update yet or anything.

With multiple regions banning bayonetta worldwide, cloud dominating online left and right, and rosaluma rage nonsense still a problem? Doubt it. I personally think the current package is fine, but there is definitely still work to be done here and there from a developer's/balance team's point of view.

 

[Nobie]

Not trying to contribute to the johns, but from personal experience I've found that flying from the US to Europe is way easier to adjust to than Europe to US in terms of jetlag. Each person is different though.

By the way, in other games and esports, Europe tends to be noticeably stronger in the US, and that's because the US is so large that it becomes difficult to get all of the greatest talent together in one place. Part of the reason that Korea is so strong in so many games is that the vast majority of their population lives in one city, Seoul, which has contributed to it being such an esports mecca.

It might be the case that Smash 4 is small enough that the US benefits from having just a larger overall population, and that the smaller population of Europe at this ratio doesn't result in large enough scenes for their close proximity to kick into high gear.

But the Netherlands and Germany are both considered pretty strong scenes in Smash, and why it just so happens that they're right next to each other.

 

[DanGR]

Give me a break. If people are going to discount the results of all of Europe, why stop there? Zero's sparring sessions are more indicative of future meta trends than all of Florida.

 

[Pancracio17]

One question thats bugging me is whether or not this is the last patch for Smash 4, considering we havent gotten an update yet or anything.

I feel like social media is too vocal about bayo for her to go unerfed, but how many patches do we have left and when are they comingis a complete mystery

Not trying to contribute to the johns, but from personal experience I've found that flying from the US to Europe is way easier to adjust to than Europe to US in terms of jetlag. Each person is different though.

get better internet on europe if you want less lag

 

[sedrf]

My guess would be around ceo//evo then after that a 1-2 month grace period.If nothing happens, then we're on our own.

 

[Mr. Johan]

RE: Dabuz's s list that has Toon Link at that category with no MU harder than -1.

I find that hard to accept with Mega Mewtwo running around now. Care to divulge on that MU?

 

[Cat8752]

Lucas, Pacman, Yoshi: All fit comfortably into where I placed them after considering results against common characters, with Lucas the only character who I think will risa in future lists.

I think it's ridiculous to place Yoshi below Ike and Gren but with that aside by your tier descriptions Yoshi should be at least 12th. He only has two awful matchups (being Cloud/Diddy,) after that there are no matchups that are agreed upon to be bad, and those debatably bad matchups are -1. If only having 2 losing matchups doesn't constitute as an amazing MU spread I don't know what does.

 

[Pancracio17]

nvm read wrong, dont mind me

 

[Trifroze]

Some countries in Europe (with at least Germany and Netherlands immediately coming to mind) are stronger than most states or regions in USA, sadly Europe just doesn't have anything that matches the likes of Tristate and SoCal, or even Florida and Texas in terms of sheer numbers.

It's kind of arrogant and unconstructive to shrug off EU's results as a whole. They're valuable as long as we're not comparing European results to American or Japanese majors directly. No one probably has, but most people are becoming pretty tired of hearing the words "Beast" and "Greninja" in the same sentence. And "Greninja's theory" for that matter. Everyone has heard several versions of that theory by now, and the more underwhelming versions of that theory seem more valid for as long as the character isn't proving anything else in big tournaments (doing good in Europe doesn't prove anything more than that Greninja is at least a decent character).

Yeah, Mewtwo would probably be in the exact same predicament if not for one person and one tournament, but maybe at the same time he just possessed more tools to pull off something like that. Stating Greninja's theory in the same favorable tone over and over and exaggerating the importance of his results is annoying at this point. Like Pikachu's.

pls no pikachu

 

[Ninety]

Honestly Greninja is becoming the new Pikachu at this rate. And that's not a good thing.

 

[L9999]

Honestly Greninja is becoming the new Pikachu at this rate. And that's not a good thing.

All the PkMn are inconsistent debate inducing disasters. Minus Puff, everyone agrees she is trash tier.

 

[FullMoon]

RE: Dabuz's s list that has Toon Link at that category with no MU harder than -1.

I find that hard to accept with Mega Mewtwo running around now. Care to divulge on that MU?

Could you elaborate on this? I can't really see why Mewtwo would be such a terrible MU for TL

 

[DblCrest]

Mike's list seems optimistic and a bit iffy. (I say iffy because I feel Kirbeh's weaknesses are pretty darn easy to exploit)
Though that's just the Even match ups. I feel quite a few of them could go to disadvantage for Kirby. That and tons of characters have tools to deal with him these days so I wouldn't be surprised if everyone has a positive match up against the puffball.

Negative thoughts aside I think it's a'ight apart from that.


Now who's a character who's rarely talked about?

 

[C0rvus]

In my experience, Toon Link v Mewtwo was even last patch. Can't be that bad for Toon Link now. Maaaaaybe -1 but I think he can deal. You lose footsies but Tink doesn't want to play footsies to begin with. If you try to play runaway, Mewtwo can keep up but it's hard to say if that's enough to give him the edge. I'd have to play it again, but it was hella annoying and difficult last patch anyway.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

What makes Kirby good?

 

[DE235]

I have a question where do you guys put Lucina's viability in comparison to other sword fighters? I watched AceStarthe3rd video featuring Lucina and I think he made a good point in that she does not have many good players representing her.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aLJJXVPiwk&list=WL&index=1