Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[TheGoodGuava]

So. In what kind of strange world. A normal Link Player will try to camp against Pac-man of all character?
And i don't talk about For Glory Link. I talk about a Link who know what he have to do. Because as much as i know Character MU spreed are optimist. But here it's not believable and almost laughable. Especialy when he make Tlink as Even.



>Say he have swordie frame data.
>Say he have brawler Hitboxes
>Say he's not a middle ground between the two
.

i stopped reading here, this is bait

 

[HeavyLobster]

Not an expert on Dorf-Pac, but I tend to doubt that Dorf actually loses 7-3, which is a ratio that tends to be thrown out a lot with him, and usually wrongly. As a general rule of thumb, if you're worse than , you shouldn't say you beat Dorf 70-30, especially if you don't have high level experience in the MU.

 

[Nekoo]

i stopped reading here, this is bait

Glad to know that you think your own post is a bait then because that's what you literally said.

Pac-Man MU

That's the thing with Pac-Man. It's almost like you play an eco-management game. The probleme is to keep this balance between fruit charge, hydran, trampoline while getting away from the opponent and Dealing with it.

That's why Pac-Man match are fantastic to see and to play against.

To see how the player manage his tool.

 

[BunbUn129]

So. In what kind of strange world. A normal Link Player will try to camp against Pac-man of all character?
And i don't talk about For Glory Link. I talk about a Link who know what he have to do. Because as much as i know Character MU spreed are optimist. But here it's not believable and almost laughable. Especialy when he make Tlink as Even.



>Say he have swordie frame data.
>Say he have brawler Hitboxes
>Say he's not a middle ground between the two

Roy is basically a High Risk, High Reward swordies character and have every tool to show this design idea, whenever it's his hitbox,frame data,weight,speed etc... He's here to put pressure while mixing thing up with changing constently with a sword spacing gameplay and a brawler gameplay to surprise his oppenent and caught them off guard. Whenever it's with spaced D-tilt to poke shield to then punish then with a jab the moment they try to counter attack. To his great juggle game.

The problem with the High Reward... well it's the High Risk. Roy will have a HARD time if he lose the pressure and will a lot of time lose a stock. And i totally agree with his cons.

And the problem with his design is well... the inclusion of Cloud who kind of steal his design while having a great trump card. And the fact that while Marth,Lucina and Ike got buffed well. He kind of miss the train and just got some well received frame in less during his aerial. That's all.

And i totally agree that he's Low-tiers. But no way he's Bottom 5 like people said some pages ago.

Roy is not a "high reward" sword-character when Cloud, Corrin, Ike, and Meta Knight exist. His grabs deal about 5% each and are inconsistent for combos due to their weight-based properties, down throw doesn't have enough hitstun and is easily DIable at higher percents, while forward throw follow-ups can be teched out of. Compare that to Ike who can up throw -> fair consistently and repeatedly for an easy 20% damage and KO's. Nair 1 can lead into kills with f tilt and up b, but nair is easily predictable considering it's one of his only good neutral tools. Unlike other swordies, he lacks a proper killing aerial.

Why do people think Roy is bottom 10 or 5? Well, what is a bottom tier character? A character who struggles to force you into a disadvantaged position, and gets low reward off of a successful neutral exchange, while finding it highly difficult to reset to neutral from a disadvantaged position. Think Jiggs, Ganon, Zelda--Roy fits the above description and the only thing preventing him from being a definitive bottom-of-the-barrel character is his good max-mobility stats.

 

[Yikarur]

Roy is not that bad, his frame data is really good for a sword fighter, his combo game is strong, his landing lag on his important aerials is low enough and he has insane air speed with one of the shortest aerials in the game.
I think he is a solid mid tier like almost every character 8) ), maybe a low mid tier but he's not bad at all. Just unconventional.

 

[bc1910]

Roy being in contention for bottom 10 or even bottom 5 is a testament to how well-balanced this game is, and how even the worst characters have a lot going for them.

 

[Nekoo]

The more i stay here. The more i see the flaw to each character. Even My main Roy. And it's great. Normally people would defend like beast their main but i'm glad i can discuss with you people. I see each other opinion on a matter and it's great to see how each people see the same situation but different way to deal with it.

Well... Even if my character is that bad as people say i guess i'll continue. I had a great Sonic before Roy. Still my secondary but i still don't know why i decided to drop him for Roy lol.

Just as a reminder. Tomorow and Sunday is the french major Neokan PartyI
https://smash.gg/tournament/neokan-party-i

 

[Pazzo.]

Roy being in contention for bottom 10 or even bottom 5 is a testament to how well-balanced this game is, and how even the worst characters have a lot going for them.

This.

That's why I think our current tier list could reformat itself to a more closer ranking (S, A+, A, A-, B+, etc) as opposed to the older systems of one letter per tier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This.

That's why I think our current tier list could reformat itself to a more closer ranking (S, A+. A, A-, B+, etc) as opposed to the older systems of one letter per tier.

Or hell, just S/A/B/C even. The +/- on each tier seems superfluous.

 

[warionumbah2]

Roy is not a "high reward" sword-character when Cloud, Corrin, Ike, and Meta Knight exist.

At low percents vs certain characters he can get Dthrow/DA to Nado but after that he gets nothing worth while outside RAR FH Bair,FH Fair and Shuttle loop. 2/3 are kill moves, at mid %s his reward for winning neutral is pretty poor.

The angle change made Uair combos out of Dthrow unreliable on a large portion of the cast especially those who're relevant competitively, when Dthrow to Uair true combo's the opponent is already in tumble %s. The damage on Uair also got 1% taken off. MKs kill confirms are also easy to DI, I'm seeing players live longer than ever so long as they guess correctly when recovering.

 

[epicnights]

Or hell, just S/A/B/C even. The +/- on each tier seems superfluous.

The plus and minus tiers allow it to keep the same amount of tiers as the current one. The current one has 10 tiers, and a plus and minus tier for each letter not counting S tier gives 10 tiers as well.

 

[Pazzo.]

Or hell, just S/A/B/C even. The +/- on each tier seems superfluous.

I can respect that.

We'd just have to remind other, less knowledgeable players not to cross-compare tiers with Brawl or Melee (not that it's taken seriously).

 

[BunbUn129]

This.

That's why I think our current tier list could reformat itself to a more closer ranking (S, A+. A, A-, B+, etc) as opposed to the older systems of one letter per tier.

Also, make the top tier bigger. With the nerfs to Sheik, we currently can't put our finger on an indisputable best character. I never liked how almost half the cast was in low and bottom tiers on that list, and I think top tier should be expanded to top 10, high tier should be 10-20, mid 20-40, low 40-50, and the rest should be bottom.

warionumbah2 I was speaking in relative terms; Meta Knight's overall reward is still better than Roy's because he has more reliable kill set-ups and a safe KO move in fsmash, along with a more flexible edge-guarding game. Then throw in MK's much better disadvantage state and his risk-reward ratio makes more sense.

 

[TheGoodGuava]

Glad to know that you think your own post is a bait then because that's what you literally said.




That's the thing with Pac-Man. It's almost like you play an eco-management game. The probleme is to keep this balance between fruit charge, hydran, trampoline while getting away from the opponent and Dealing with it.

That's why Pac-Man match are fantastic to see and to play against.

To see how the player manage his tool.

oh im sorry, i thought you were implying i was wrong? I mean I'm not so

 

[darkfury666]

Purple Guy beat Xaltis' Rosa once and her Peach once, not her Rosa twice.

 

[Luco]

While I like the idea behind tiers A+ / A / A- etc - I feel as though + and - of tiers is uncomfortable and I prefer the neatness of S/A/B/C/D/E etc.

The issue with having 4 tiers is the tier list begins to look chunky, and trying to sort individual characters out in their specific placements becomes difficult and meaningless. If we're equating 20 characters to a certain level of viability, why should Marth be over Robin when they're both considered to have roughly the same level of viability in a mish-mash of 18 other characters? In Brawl, it was very easy to make a clear argument about where a character was based on the small tiers of usually 3-5 characters - "Lucas should move above Luigi and Pokemon Trainer because of x" (and people debated over such small changes of low tier characters because the tiering was clear and concise).

Tbh I think if we're going to have a 20-character mid tier, we need to include sub-tiers. Yes the game is more balanced, but as time goes on it's getting clearer who belongs in what viability section and roughly where too ("Oh this character is around DK / Luigi level of viability" (So make a tier of those 3!) ).

It's just really dumb if mid tier looks like this:

Mid:


And would be significantly improved by this:

Mid:
C:
D:
E:
F:
G:

Which looks a lot easier on the eyes and makes it easier to talk about individual tiers WITHIN mid ("The characters in C tier see greater success at these levels of competition and in more regions as opposed to characters in D who see significant use but more commonly as secondaries, or as upcoming C tiers or found in THESE regions..."). This is the kind of dialogue we eventually want to have, where people can start asking questions like "Well does ROB belong in C tier or the top of D tier? I see Wario as having greater success now and it may be possible that they swap spots in their respective tiers, or else within the same tier."

Disclaimer: My list was an example, not an opinion, lol.

EDIT: Also this is personal preference but I've always LOVED "Borderline" tier and want to see that brought back.

 

[Ninety]

Roy is basically a High Risk, High Reward swordies character and have every tool to show this design idea, whenever it's his hitbox,frame data,weight,speed etc... He's here to put pressure while mixing thing up with changing constently with a sword spacing gameplay and a brawler gameplay to surprise his oppenent and caught them off guard. Whenever it's with spaced D-tilt to poke shield to then punish then with a jab the moment they try to counter attack. To his great juggle game.

The problem with the High Reward... well it's the High Risk. Roy will have a HARD time if he lose the pressure and will a lot of time lose a stock. And i totally agree with his cons.

What's his high reward, again? What hard-hitting moves can he actually combo off his combo starters? Blazer?

I'm legitimately asking, by the way, not just being snarky. How much reward does he get off confirms? Can he link more than 2 or 3 attacks consistently at a time? More importantly, can he actually combo into his hilt sweetspots? We know he has trouble with kill confirms or standalone safe kill moves, does he at least have good percent payouts when winning neutral?

Roy is not that bad, his frame data is really good for a sword fighter,

Is it? I'm comparing frame data right now (I really don't wanna talk out of my ass), and it appears to be extremely similar to other swordfighters'. Tilts, DA, smashes. What useful moves does he have a notable advantage in?

his combo game is strong,

Repeating above questions. What makes it strong? How much damage does he get from combos? How reliably do they work at different percents, weights and fall speeds? How often can he get them safely?

his landing lag on his important aerials is low enough and he has insane air speed with one of the shortest aerials in the game.

Assuming you mean his shorthop air time, it being so short is actually a detriment -- his autocancel windows lie just outside of his SH airtime. And his airspeed is great, but his air acceleration is bottom 3. Same problem Marth has with walking. His raw landing lag does seem slightly better than average, though. Does that make any of his SH aerials safe on shield?

I think he is a solid mid tier like almost every character 8) ), maybe a low mid tier but he's not bad at all. Just unconventional.

Probably evident by this point, but I think you're wrong. Every game has to have low tiers (going by the traditional definition, anyway), and in order not to place Roy there, you'd have to argue for him being better than what, a third of the cast? A fourth? I don't think there's room to substantiate that line of argument.

I don't mean to be harsh -- I don't hate Roy. But I've looked into him and I just cannot see him being anything but low tier. If you can prove me wrong, then by all means, please do. I mean it. What am I overlooking? What can he do? We know his disadvantage is terrible and his neutral is arguable, but what makes his advantage good? What makes him good?

 

[BunbUn129]

What's his high reward, again? What hard-hitting moves can he actually combo off his combo starters? Blazer?

I'm legitimately asking, by the way, not just being snarky. How much reward does he get off confirms? Can he link more than 2 or 3 attacks consistently at a time? More importantly, can he actually combo into his hilt sweetspots? We know he has trouble with kill confirms or standalone safe kill moves, does he at least have good percent payouts when winning neutral?



Is it? I'm comparing frame data right now (I really don't wanna talk out of my ***), and it appears to be extremely similar to other swordfighters'. Tilts, DA, smashes. What useful moves does he have a notable advantage in?



Repeating above questions. What makes it strong? How much damage does he get from combos? How reliably do they work at different percents, weights and fall speeds? How often can he get them safely?



Assuming you mean his shorthop air time, it being so short is actually a detriment -- his autocancel windows lie just outside of his SH airtime. And his airspeed is great, but his air acceleration is bottom 3. Same problem Marth has with walking. His raw landing lag does seem slightly better than average, though. Does that make any of his SH aerials safe on shield?




Probably evident by this point, but I think you're wrong. Every game has to have low tiers (going by the traditional definition, anyway), and in order not to place Roy there, you'd have to argue for him being better than what, a third of the cast? A fourth? I don't think there's room to substantiate that line of argument.

I don't mean to be harsh -- I don't hate Roy. But I've looked into him and I just cannot see him being anything but low tier. If you can prove me wrong, then by all means, please do. I mean it. What am I overlooking? What can he do? We know his disadvantage is terrible and his neutral is arguable, but what makes his advantage good? What makes him good?

I think Yikrarur was being sarcastic about Roy. "Solid mid tier" is a often thrown around as a joke.

The only clear advantage Roy has over other swordies in frame data is his landing lag.

 

[Nekoo]

Best Joke as far as i know and don't know from where it come. I legit think he's Low tiers. But Bottom 5? Wew never.

 

[BunbUn129]

Best Joke as far as i know and don't know from where it come. I legit think he's Low tiers. But Bottom 5? Wew never.

Someone has to be bottom 5. I'm not saying Roy is unarguably bottom 5, but it isn't unreasonable to say so.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Also, make the top tier bigger. With the nerfs to Sheik, we currently can't put our finger on an indisputable best character. I never liked how almost half the cast was in low and bottom tiers on that list, and I think top tier should be expanded to top 10, high tier should be 10-20, mid 20-40, low 40-50, and the rest should be bottom.

warionumbah2 I was speaking in relative terms; Meta Knight's overall reward is still better than Roy's because he has more reliable kill set-ups and a safe KO move in fsmash, along with a more flexible edge-guarding game. Then throw in MK's much better disadvantage state and his risk-reward ratio makes more sense.

I poked around Wikipedia a bit trying to learn about normal distributions and standard deviations, mostly for funsies. (Work is horrifically boring today.) If one decides to try and make the tier list conform to an actual statistical distribution, then there would be 3-6 separate tiers depending on factors such as total cast size (since .5% of anything but a massive roster is basically 0) and how exactly you want to split the middle. Taking the current perception of the Smash 4 cast into account, I think 4 tiers would suffice.

Top: 15%
High: 35%
Mid: 35%
Low: 15%

The names are slightly nonindicative ("mid" in particular since everyone in it is below the mean) but the alternative is having mid consist of a full 70% of the cast. Which one is preferable is an exercise left to the reader. Converting these to raw numbers, for a 58 character roster we have 9 characters each in top and low tier, and 20 characters each in high and mid tier. That...actually sounds reasonable at first blush.

Spoiler: Sample list, don't take this seriously. Unordered.

Top:
High:
Mid:
Low:

Even for a basic demonstration list with maybe 10 minutes of thought put into it (I repeat: DO NOT TAKE IT SERIOUSLY), the number breakdown makes a surprising amount of sense. It's not hard to visualize corresponding definitions, e.g. top tier is "the meta", high tier is "can compete against the meta", and so forth.

IDK, it was an interesting exercise.

 

[TurboLink]

I think Yikrarur was being sarcastic about Roy. "Solid mid tier" is a often thrown around as a joke.

The only clear advantage Roy has over other swordies in frame data is his landing lag.

Bar Uair and Dair, I'd say Link has better landing lag.

http://kuroganehammer.com/smash4/Roy

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Link

But Roy's seems to be overall better.

 

[LordMix]

http://i.imgur.com/gMnJ5Gu.png if any is curious about what i think, now to lurk for another week or so....

 

[Nekoo]

Long Roy Discussion

Well. For his combo i guess i can use some Video to show some of his tool on different weight and % Right?

This Combo video was made almost when he was out. He have a lot of tool...This is kind of a BnB video for Roy Player.

And then we have a goldmine of Competitive Roy match , footstool combo, trick thanks to @MasonEliwood made youtube playlist

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLyjrSXzY5Wcnm2ieLDFpXF7weYfsj0e1q

 

[Megamang]

To argue for the 2% healing advantage, I'll say this. It can be a game changer in a lot of close situations. If you are barely in kill percentages, healing is nice. As Rosa, you really can't let him heal all the way for 3 minutes. This is unlike most MUs, where she can just sit there and gravity pull you for 6 minutes if she is up by 1%. I think that is all Pac Mains are really getting at, it forces approaches. That alone is powerful, but if you lose the first stock to ragealina at 40% it doesn't matter.

---

Roy is actually pretty scary. His nair is insanity, and should never get you shieldgrabbed or OOS'd ever, unless you try and land the last hit and get powershielded. Don't use his fair and bair to space! You use nair as your aerial combatant, beating out their moves with either its speed, range, or safety, depending on the MU. When they start trying to dodge or do something tricky, then you hit fair. A fresh fair or bair will kill surprisingly early. Same with ftilt. Dtilt is super strong in footsies and again, great on shield. Utilt can kill later, and combos early. Dthrow is really nice, and if they start getting complacent you can walk forward ftilt or fsmash them for their airdodge mashings.

Roy has a cool niche against tether grabbers, since his nair/dtilt/jab is crazy pressure against them, and defensive options are super scary with his f-smash floating around. But against someone like Marth/Ike? Oh Lawdy, not so fun. But, he is nice against a good chunk of characters. This may seem obvious, but unless they can keep him from mixing it up (with a large sword, gimping him, oppressive something something...) he usually holds the better risk/reward, again because of fsmash. And that is his 50% kill move, once you are in real kill range his pivot ftilt, fair, bair, nair, jab -> blazer, armor'd blazer, and more do the job well.

Being fast in the air, even with bad acceleration, is nice... especially when your strategy is to come in with nair and crush whatever they try and do, and if they shield just start jabbing the **** outta them.

I think high reward characters in general have a good presence in tournament brackets, because your wins come that much easier. It is less stressful, and your opponent can't adapt as well if the game is already over. Of course, on the flip side, he can die before you learn your opponent. So why not learn your opponent with someone, then pull out Roy if they have bad OOS or if you are landing smashes but not getting your kills!

Oh, and uair is a solid juggler. Sweetspotted it hurts, and a sourspot puts you just hovering above roy which is bad bad bad. With its landing lag, I would guess that sour uair -> sweet uair is a kill confirm. Its also really safe on shield.

So, when you look at his landing lag, don't look at all the aerials. You aren't gonna fair or bair unless you are getting a hit and want a kill. You'll be landing with nair in neutral, and uair if you can hit it will give you higher reward than lots of stuff.

His combos are vertical things, like dthrow utilt utilt uair, dthrow uair -> kill dodge with fair/bair.... and the infamous tap you with something -> full side B combo that is deadly, easy, and powerful.

Edgeguarding is surprisingly versatile, you have your aerials, counter, reverse blazer stagespike, and charging Flare Blade at the ledge mixups.

tldr; I think the fact that Ryo pulls out Roy in some MUs should tell you something. Especially since it is commonly accepted that Ike doesn't lose any MU horribly, and Diddy/Ryu/ZSS are some of the MUs that he likes Roy.

But, alas... when someone hears all this and still asks, who is he better than? I dunno. But he is a valuable pocket, much like many around his general power level. Its not so much a lack of strengths as an annoyingly present weakness; but in MUs where the weakness isn't so bad, the powers really come to play.

Srsly, nair-> jab and nair-dtilt makes tether grabbers not want to shield at all. But, any other dodge is super risky so you either shield or just try and battle a disjoint, which can be hard when he is really really fast.

 

[TurboLink]

http://i.imgur.com/gMnJ5Gu.png if any is curious about what i think, now to lurk for another week or so....

So why do you think Bowser has a 60-40 against Link?

And with a matchup spread like that, wouldn't Bowser be like high-tier or mid high-tier something?

I have a hard time believing Bowser beats Meta Knight, Ike, Fox, Toon Link, Sonic, Diddy Kong, Mewtwo, Captain Falcon, Greninja, Olimar, Ness, and possibly some others...

So, I just got a better look at it and apparently Bowser only loses to six characters? I'm not buying that.

 

[LordMix]

Bowsers high tier when i play him,
Remember you only really fight bowser when you fight me and i found some new technology vs noobs who wanna abuse big characters landings and roll around bowser and throw out grabs and noob options

 

[TurboLink]

Bowsers high tier when i play him,
Remember you only really fight bowser when you fight me and i found some new technology vs noobs who wanna abuse big characters landings and roll around bowser and throw out grabs and noob options

Are you saying you play people on For Glory? You could at least go to Anther's Ladder or play against people on here. Just about any place is better than For Glory, even if you do occasionally run into someone who knows what they're doing.

 

[LordMix]

Are you saying you play people on For Glory? You could at least go to Anther's Ladder or play against people on here. Just about any place is better than For Glory, even if you do occasionally run into someone who knows what they're doing.

I dont play for glory or anthers noobkingdom i'm talking about everyday people i play or even in tournament like player 1 or some ****. I have no time for anthers i've gotten first on that site with every random character i could think of

Its my character and I'm the only one using him so I'm entitled to say however i feel or think about any mu and if any of you would like to change my mind, you can try but it will most likely fail

 

[Nekoo]

Bowsers high tier when i play him,
Remember you only really fight bowser when you fight me and i found some new technology vs noobs who wanna abuse big characters landings and roll around bowser and throw out grabs and noob options

10/10 Reply.

Would Bait again.

But yeah. We should stop MU Spread... or only if somebody back-up their claim...


Because yes! EVEN YOU BEHIND YOUR SCREEN CAN MAKE JIGGLYPUFF TOP TIERS! THANKS TO SSB4 TIERS LIST MAKER.

Look how i transformed a bottom tiers into a high tiers 111!!!1!

Guys it's a joke.

Don't kill me plz.

 

[BunbUn129]

People are gonna make fun and call BS on Lordmix's match-up spread and the basis for deciding such MU's, when in fact, most of us are guilty of the same thing--we just don't openly admit it.

 

[Nekoo]

People are gonna make fun and call BS on Lordmix's match-up spread and the basis for deciding such MU's, when in fact, most of us are guilty of the same thing--we just don't openly admit it.

That's kind of what we're doing here. We are guilty of these thing. It's just that lately we had a lot of MU spread without real back up claim (except Dabuz i guess)

 

[Jams.]

http://i.imgur.com/gMnJ5Gu.png if any is curious about what i think, now to lurk for another week or so....

I'm curious where you would place Bowser on a tier list based on this matchup chart. Even the most optimistic ROB MU charts I've seen give him an MU spread far worse than this, but ROB is generally considered a better character. Since pinning down a character's exact position without any context can be difficult and often doesn't generate good discussion, how do you feel Bowser compares to characters such as , /, , , and in terms of viability? I tried to pick an array of characters between high and mid tier whose positions are generally not hugely contested.

 

[bc1910]

I don't want to get into deviations and stuff when it comes to tier size. Quite simply, from what I've observed, people really struggle to get to grips with the fact that this game has a massive roster. The tiers have GOT to be bigger.

A 3-character top tier would actually be sort of ludicrous now, IMO. I could kind of understand it in 1.1.3 because the three queens were rather dominant (I still think Diddy should have been up there, and probably Cloud) but to restrict top/high tier to 13 characters in a game with, at that point, 56 characters, just doesn't make sense. I mean, it might if over half the roster was genuinely mid-tier or worse, but that isn't even the case.

With Melee currently having a 4-character top tier and 26 characters, S4 would make sense with the same ratio. Considering its roster is more than twice the size, having around 8 top tiers makes perfect sense to me even though 8 might sound like a lot. High tier could then be slightly expanded to 9 or 10 characters (Melee currently has 4 high tiers as well). I hope the top ~20 or so get to be high tier in the next list.

 

[Y2Kay]

I don't want to get into deviations and stuff when it comes to tier size. Quite simply, from what I've observed, people really struggle to get to grips with the fact that this game has a massive roster. The tiers have GOT to be bigger.

A 3-character top tier would actually be sort of ludicrous now, IMO. I could kind of understand it in 1.1.3 because the three queens were rather dominant (I still think Diddy should have been up there, and probably Cloud) but to restrict top/high tier to 13 characters in a game with, at that point, 56 characters, just doesn't make sense. I mean, it might if over half the roster was genuinely mid-tier or worse, but that isn't even the case.

With Melee currently having a 4-character top tier and 26 characters, S4 would make sense with the same ratio. Considering its roster is more than twice the size, having around 8 top tiers makes perfect sense to me even though 8 might sound like a lot. High tier could then be slightly expanded to 9 or 10 characters (Melee currently has 4 high tiers as well). I hope the top ~20 or so get to be high tier in the next list.

Yeah I've been meaning to say this for a while, but apparently this is a red topic I think?

 

[Piipp]

Bowsers high tier when i play him,
Remember you only really fight bowser when you fight me and i found some new technology vs noobs who wanna abuse big characters landings and roll around bowser and throw out grabs and noob options

You mean technique? Or even tech? lol

 

[KamikazePotato]

I saw a comment once that I more or less agree with - Roy is Lowish Tier unless you land a hard Fsmash read, in that case he's High Tier. Roy's Fsmash is absolutely bananas and if you can land those with consistency you'll do great things. Ryo won a Losers Finals match against a ZSS by landing two Fsmashes in the middle of the stage, both which killed at 50%. But those were the only two Fsmashes he landed in the entire set, and other than that it was plain to see how underwhelming Roy was and how Ryo had to push him to the very limit to get results.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'd be more impressed with Roy's Fsmash if the bonkers hitbox wasn't so small... IIRC it's practically a body hitbox. Then in the range around where you'd land Marth's tipper Fsmash it's pretty average for the type of character he is, and then the rest is sourspot which struggles to kill even at 140%. All that with unimpressive startup and endlag and no special properties like lingering hitboxes or a step back during startup it seems pretty meh as a Fsmash.

 

[Megamang]

You land the fsmash when they are thinking 'when is this idiot going to stop nairing and jabbing?'

 

[LancerStaff]

And when you're close enough and when they're not doing anything for 16 frames. I honestly never got the hype around the move... There's lots of Fsmashes I'd take over Roy's. Or, yaknow, an actually dumb move like Electroshock.