Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

My comment was assuming you'd combine them, hence why I listed only Pit. IMO Pit has always had the poorest level of representation relative to how good he is, with the possible exception of Peach.

Got me, lol.

Though, at least with this batch of results, the Pits together are like 15-20 spots below where they're perceived to be with theory. Peach is more like 25-30.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Better projectile, safer aerials, better recovery, better ground moves

The only thing he's missing is ebola bthrow and Ness's uair being absurd.

I agree with the intent of this, but I think you're underestimating how much Ness' bthrow, uair, and fair make a difference in. Regardless Lucas is definitely being slept on...although the data that was just posted implies otherwise.

 

[Nu~]

Why does diddy beat Bayo again?

 

[Y2Kay]

Istudying got knocked out by SHAD

who is this pokemon slayer? I already dislike him -_-

 

[Illusion.]

Istudying got knocked out by SHAD

who is this pokemon slayer? I already dislike him -_-

PR'd in Ohio.

 

[Luco]

Lucas should be doing better seeing as he's OP. Real talk I think he's better than Ness but people will call me crazy until someone good picks him up and starts doing well.

bye bits

That's okay, I think this too, or at least Lucas isn't far below Ness.

Idk man, the more I play MUs with Ness and find myself hating neutral the more I realise I could just be playing Lucas, murdering them in neutral and then following their SDI as they try to get out of Nair strings --> Uair that will do more damage than like 2 Ness combos.

Then when I'm ready to kill them I just pivot grab a landing at 110% and hoo-hah. And then I remember that most character boards think Lucas is a worse MU for them than Ness.

*LE SIGH*

Not trying to crush your dreams, but we're not really relevant in a continent that already struggles to be relevant, i know how it feels to go to tournaments & all, but in your case, it's not that big of a deal, still, good luck for Top 64.
Anyway, let's get to the fun part: matchups.

The biggest issue i have with your rating of some matchups is that you seem to either ignore neutral or your idea of X Character's neutral is kind of flawed. The Cloud matchup is the biggest example of this:
- Cloud's neutral b never played a big part of his neutral, it is a mixup at the very best
- Courtesy of the multiple ways of cancelling Limit into basically anything, good Cloud players won't have much trouble charging Limit bit by bit, even against the fastest of rushdown characters. And i'm not taking into account Stage dependant limit charge ( Charging Limit on Duck Hunt's Tree & Smashville's platforms are the biggest case of that ).
- While Cloud's disadvantage state isn't good for sure, Roy's isn't good at all either, and you'll likely get as exploited by the likes of UpAir juggles, reverse Nair edgeguards & most combos in Cloud's arsenal given that Roy is among the biggest combo fodder in the entire cast once he gets you to this state, which brings me to the point of Neutral Game.
- Cloud's overall much stronger autocancels, frame data & safety may allow him to strike before Roy does, and this is a key part of the matchup: Their tools in neutral will play an important part, and as i just mentionned, Cloud's neutral tools are unarguably stronger than Roy's, ultimately leading into him getting the edge over Roy more often.

While i'm not a Roy specialist by any means, i'd probably say this matchup is closer to 6/4, but i may be wrong, i'm just sharing my own thoughts because it didn't feel right to me.

I'm going to refer to one of those S-tier posters I talked about before and be a dirty hypocrite for a second but Shaya (or maybe it was Thinkaman? I dunno, they sometimes merge into the same person when I'm not looking ;P ) made a really good post about how any results are good results and information from a broad spectrum of play should be looked at when it comes to competitive impressions. Higher levels of play are probably weighted more heavily due to being more reflective of a high-level meta-game but for the majority of people who play somewhere in the mid-level region, having mid-level experience + analysis can be just as interesting and invaluable. So don't sell yourselves short!

@juddy96 The winner of York Street Battles was Randy, he played Luigi and Charizard. It was a smaller tournament than usual (except for the fact that the rest of the FGC was there lawl), but it's a new thing we're trying out and most of the PR were there so it was fine.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Istudying got knocked out by SHAD

who is this pokemon slayer? I already dislike him -_-

dammit shad

Need to talk to that boy in this discord sometime.

Too soon to be poppin fools. Gotta wait till the patches end so Ryu will reign SUPR....*cough*

Uhhhh...nothing....nevermind....

Also wasn't I saying for awhile that Lucas is better then Ness or at least on his level?

WHEN THE **** ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO ACCEPT MY WORD AS GOSPEL?!?!?!

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Also wasn't I saying for awhile that Lucas is better then Ness or at least on his level?

WHEN THE **** ARE YOU PEOPLE GOING TO ACCEPT MY WORD AS GOSPEL?!?!?!

idk i don't come in here much

but results are rather lacking for Lucas atm, like Zelda has more results. idk if this is just poor rep or what. I don't have the data to back it up but i feel like (someone correct me if I'm wrong) that Lucas kills off a grab at like the same percents as Ness does and then has a whole moveset upgrade bar uair on top of that.

his zair is rly obnoxious

 

[Luco]

Lucas has a neutral game that doesn't flow quite as easily into advantage as Ness - Zair and PK Fire kind of just lead into themselves, and Lucas isn't going to run up and grab unless the opponent approaches him and usually from the air.

In return his neutral is better and arguably so is his advantage. His disadvantage is easily better due to having the same weird physics as Ness plus tether when offstage.

Also I've heard this thing about PK kids and Mewtwo having weird jump physics but being able to bypass the 10-frame window of jumping out of hitstun earlier than you would if you mashed it. As in they can mash jump and get out early anyway, making them harder to combo in certain situations.

Lucas neutral is oppressive as FUUUUUUUUUUU and he has ALOT of tools for various situations. He is also much harder to pin down when played optimally.

I realised the amazingness that is Dtilt. All praise the Dtilt (seriously that move is slightly borked).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Lucas neutral is oppressive as FUUUUUUUUUUU and he has ALOT of tools for various situations. He is also much harder to pin down when played optimally.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Whats the opinion on Samus post patch?

 

[Y2Kay]

The venue is cutting the power off at MM2. The tourney is running longer than planned.

The last of the matches will likely not be streamed.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Didn't they say they'll stream it elsewhere

Edit: or at least try to lol

 

[Y2Kay]

Didn't they say they'll stream it elsewhere

Edit: or at least try to lol

They have no idea if the Internet there can handle it though

 

[KamikazePotato]

I will say that I think Lucas' tether is kind of nuts. It's much harder to punish than any other tether in the game, at least from my experience.

 

[sedrf]

The goog old days of poverty smash.
Now it needs scar ranting about jigglypuff, I mean bayo and we will be back in 2009.
Also Tos shouldn't have ran so much ****.

 

[Kofu]

I will say that I think Lucas' tether is kind of nuts. It's much harder to punish than any other tether in the game, at least from my experience.

Probably for two reasons. One, it's got shorter range than most others. Two, his grab is consistently threatening, so you try harder to avoid it.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

That was a pretty poorly planned event. TO's in that region need to get it together. Terrible scheduling, poor commentating, poor coverage.

No respect for Tyroy at the end of winner's. If you're playing an already polarizing character, and are playing an obnoxiously campy approach by literally standing on an effing tree and doing nothing, all to stall out on an event that is a ALREADY PRESSED FOR TIME, just to lose anyway...you do not deserve respect. Credit where credit's due, he had some great plays up until that moment. There are times where it is acceptable to play lame. That was not appropriate at all on his part.

 

[Emblem Lord]

That was a pretty poorly planned event. TO's in that region need to get it together. Terrible scheduling, poor commentating, poor coverage.

No respect for Tyroy at the end of winner's. If you're playing an already polarizing character, and are playing an obnoxiously campy approach by literally standing on an effing tree and doing nothing, all to stall out on an event that is a ALREADY PRESSED FOR TIME, just to lose anyway...you do not deserve respect. Credit where credit's due, he had some great plays up until that moment. There are times where it is acceptable to play lame. That was not appropriate at all on his part.

This scrub talk physically hurts me

 

[Luco]

That was a pretty poorly planned event. TO's in that region need to get it together. Terrible scheduling, poor commentating, poor coverage.

No respect for Tyroy at the end of winner's. If you're playing an already polarizing character, and are playing an obnoxiously campy approach by literally standing on an effing tree and doing nothing, all to stall out on an event that is a ALREADY PRESSED FOR TIME, just to lose anyway...you do not deserve respect. Credit where credit's due, he had some great plays up until that moment. There are times where it is acceptable to play lame. That was not appropriate at all on his part.

Highly disagree. The game allows it, competition allows it, we should already know playing campy is something that can be done and should be respected, so although the venue was shut down it really isn't Tyroy's burden to change the way he's playing.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Highly disagree. The game allows it, competition allows it, we should already know playing campy is something that can be done and should be respected, so although the venue was shut down it really isn't Tyroy's burden to change the way he's playing.

Tyroy didn't have to sit up there and stall. As a matter of fact, it didn't even work for him pragmatically. He chose to put himself in an overly defensive position at a time when every TO's ballsack was sweatier than m2k's palms have ever been, likely because of nerves. EVEN WHEN HE WAS DOWN A STOCK, HE CHOSE TO CAMP. All while the venue breathed down everyone's neck and the viewers grew impatient and frustrated that grand finals wouldn't even be streamed.

 

[Y2Kay]

Tyroy doesn't get anything out of stalling the venue. His behavior is not as malicious as you think.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If he camped when he was down a stock then he played foolishly.

He deserved to lose.

Oh **** he did lose.

Guess everything ended as it should.

 

[Charoite]

Is not tyroy fault that the TO couldn't run the event smoothy, he can camp because he wants and the game allows it, nothing more, external factors like, TO ,viewers, etc are not important, maybe he thought that camp would frustrate the opponent, and take advantage of that, is like when people go for style when is not optimal , but because is "hype" people would praise it.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

If he camped when he was down a stock then he played foolishly.

He deserved to lose.

Oh **** he did lose.

Guess everything ended as it should.

Fair enough.

 

[KamikazePotato]

To any Roy fans out there - Ryo has been putting in serious hours into Roy lately and at the latest SC59 played Roy in like 90% of his matches. Did fantastic with him, too.

vs. Pikachu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OykEFF-091k
vs. Toon Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmU6cLyaT5Y

 

[HoSmash4]

I'm pretty sure Tyroy wouldn't have camped if Diddy's neutral with banana wasn't so oppressive for Bayonetta
*sits in shield and waits for banana throw oos*

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tyroy should learn how to Instant Air Dive Kick, if that is the case.

 

[Aaron1997]

Yusan beat ikep 2-1 >

 

[Das Koopa]

So here's the Top 16 for Midwest Mayhem 2

Spoiler

1st: Zinoto
2nd: Tyroy
3rd: Abadango
4th: VoiD
5th: JJRockets
5th: DarkShad
7th: iStudying
7th: NiTe
9th: Big Mak
9th: Anonymous Moniker
9th: JTWild
9th: Ksev
13th: Nero
13th: Demitus
13th: Rich Brown
13th: BoScotty

 

[sedrf]

ANd tyroy just busters out to zinoto after 3-0 ing abadango.
Grats zinoto.

 

[Aaron1997]

1 Witch is dead Ginko beats Ikep 2-0 >

or maybe for ginko?

 

[Trifroze]

All tournament results have value, but the reason high level results are so much more important to people with competitive mindset than mid level results is that high level is where everyone is trying to get to, the future, while mid level is what everyone is trying to get out of and leave behind.

 

[NairWizard]

Diddy seems to have an issue with strong zoners. C3PO's loss to Link falls in line with a bevy of strong evidence: Diddy's losses to Olimar and Megaman in Japan, Pacman and Megaman matchup charts claiming to have an advantage against him (and Zinoto's MU chart claiming that Olimar and Megaman have advantages against him), and his widely accepted disadvantage to Rosalina.

Meanwhile, Diddy in results and theory is strong against footsie-based characters, such as the sword users (e.g. Marth and Ike), Ryu, and Mewtwo. Characters who rely on aerial approaches or burst movement also tend to have issues with Diddy, like ZSS, Sheik, and Bayonetta. He's highly relevant to the metagame because these characters are fundamentally pretty strong (and/or have been buffed by patches, hello FE crew).

Both of these observations are comfortably explained by Diddy's extremely strong anti-approach game. Between rising f-air, falling f-air, shield/dash grab, and banana peel toss, Diddy can not only wall characters out but punish them for even something as simple as an empty landing. The counterplay to this so far involves just not approaching Diddy and staying grounded, which is why grounded zoners do so well; having projectiles as said zoners tend to have (or Luma in the case of Rosalina) also helps to reduce banana tossing opportunities.

Basically Diddy Kong is an anti-meta character. Whenever the meta (or the bracket) is full of zoners playing defensively, his performance will drop. But when the meta is dominated by fast pressure-based or spacing characters, Diddy's going to do pretty well.

 

[Das Koopa]

has it been considered that maybe DHD has a good matchup against Bayo? Didn't Brood beat 9B just recently?

 

[Deathcarter]

To any Roy fans out there - Ryo has been putting in serious hours into Roy lately and at the latest SC59 played Roy in like 90% of his matches. Did fantastic with him, too.

vs. Pikachu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OykEFF-091k
vs. Toon Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmU6cLyaT5Y

Watching those Roy videos, the main thing that came to mind is that Roy's nair is ridiculously good. Safe on shield, good disjoint and range, decent damage while comboing at lower percents and to top it off the first hit confirming into kill moves makes nair easily Roy's best move. Patch 1.1.5 giving it and his other aerials less landing lag may have helped Roy out more than everyone here initially thought.

 

[Aaron1997]

Yusan on fire he beat KEN >
Duck Hunt in top 8
I don't know about ya'll but theres no way DH is bottem 10 with results he gets. He gets better results then most mid tiers
Thoughts?

 

[KamikazePotato]

Watching those Roy videos, the main thing that came to mind is that Roy's nair is ridiculously good. Safe on shield, good disjoint and range, decent damage while comboing at lower percents and to top it off the first hit confirming into kill moves makes nair easily Roy's best move. Patch 1.1.5 giving it and his other aerials less landing lag may have helped Roy out more than everyone here initially thought.

Yeah, Nair was spammed like crazy. Overall, I don't think Roy is quite working as the developers intended. I think they intended for landing the sweetspot kills to be a lot easier than it actually is. Outside of well-placed tilts or the fabled ~hard read~, Ryo was having a pretty tough time finishing off his opponents. A lot of the stocks he ended up racking 150%+ on his opponents before finally sealing the deal. The risk/reward on getting the sweetspot seems to be too risky for too little reward most of the time, so Ryo just ended up really on Roy's aerials (especially nair) and speed to pressure his opponents and slowly rack up damage.

Roy also seems very hard to play. Forget the Marth comparison he always gets - he looks closer to Sheik with a sword than anything else. Just, you know, minus the projectiles and the safer/reliable kill options and the decent recovery and everything that makes Sheik significantly better. Captain Falcon is also a decent comparison but Falcon racks up damage and kills way easier than Roy does (and has more range on his moves despite no sword). In general, Roy needs to be constantly pressuring his opponent with precisely-spaced aerials and jabs, as well as grabs, while abusing frame data and movement speed to make up for a lack of range or high-damaging moves. If I were to buff Roy, I would probably slightly increase the damage on his sourspots (while slightly lowering their knockback so they overall combo the same as before) because it's just pitiful how little damage they do.

 

[Aaron1997]

Ginko the Bayo Slayer beats 9B >
Pretty safe to say that Bayo is not ban worthy

 

[TheGlove]

Kamemushi's movement and awareness of metal blade was so on point that whole set with Nasubi. Also 9B out to Ginko's Mewtwo apparently.

EDit 'd