Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Aaron1997]

I'm getting word that out of 116 entrants at KSB there were no Sheiks AT ALL that entered

 

[Illuminose]

9b literally sd'd 3 times in 2 games

I bet he was just tapped out honestly, playing fresh off his winners loss to kamemushi and close set w/ ranai in very draining matchups. that isn't meant to be a john in any way, just my guess at what might've caused his breakdown idk.

and the other part is, don't take the ginko vs 9b result that seriously lol

 

[Luco]

For some reason Bayo players seem to SD all the time. It's like watching Melee where top players will KO each other and then accidentally Wavedash off the ledge, die and the commentators don't even say anything because they take it for granted. XD

Trifroze You're totally correct, it just miffs me to see people being like "don't talk about our scene because we're not relevant." (no offense meant there to people who feel that way, just it feels sad to see it). It's kinda like, we're trying to broaden our horizons and keep up to date with the global scene now more than ever for a reason, y'know?

I really like when scenes 'feel' relevant because it bolsters their scene. People enjoy coming into a scene that feels like its part of a global movement and that in itself strengthens scenes even more. It's why - along with a few other reasons of course - we're getting 100+ entrant events in Australia now. That never ever happened in Brawl.

Speaking of 100+ man entrant events in Australia, BAM 8 is right around the corner in 2 weeks, so get hype. :D

 

[bc1910]

So here's the Top 16 for Midwest Mayhem 2

Spoiler

1st: Zinoto
2nd: Tyroy
3rd: Abadango
4th: VoiD
5th: JJRockets
5th: DarkShad
7th: iStudying
7th: NiTe
9th: Big Mak
9th: Anonymous Moniker
9th: JTWild
9th: Ksev
13th: Nero
13th: Demitus
13th: Rich Brown
13th: BoScotty

I would have liked iStudy to outplace Abadango if I'm honest. Still, 7th in a top 16 this saturated with top tiers is quite good.

Could anyone link me to a VOD of iStudy vs Tyroy? Need to see if/how he was using SSHC and how Tyroy was adapting. For now I would say don't jump to conclusions, everyone was saying Greninja wins last week when Elexaio forced Griffith off Bayo.

Not surprised that he lost to SHAD at all. I'll take my own advice and not jump to conclusions, but I'll say that Ryu's jump-ins are actually very difficult for Greninja to deal with.

EDIT: I found it, it's here.

iStudy won game 1. Game 3 was pretty close. Game 2 looked worse and he didn't really try to edgeguard Tyroy, but you saw what happened the one time he went for Hydro Pump - he didn't get the kill but it's possible to edgeguard her. SSHC is a 50/50 out of ABK, iStudy kept airdodging when he wasn't using SS which has the same result (you need to jump out). Having a 50/50 instead of just taking guaranteed damage, like everyone else, is still nice. SSHC is a guaranteed escape from the 2nd Twist and potentially dangerous for Bayo.

He also kept rolling into divekicks and got divekicked on a platform (into death) when he had no reason to do anything except platform shield drop or keep shielding.

It looked pretty even to me. I'd say Tyroy outplayed iStudying.

 

[Dre89]

People always talk about how Ganondorf can take a stock in 4-5 hits, but his disadvantage and offstage are bad enough that many characters only need to win neutral the same amount of times against him, whilst having far better neutrals.

Most of his MUs are terrible if people play extremely lame against him. It's just that most people don't do it because it's boring/can be draining to maintain constantly.

 

[Trifroze]

Characters who can't force Diddy to approach essentially have to bait out banana throw, steal it and try to start something with it or attempt to read Diddy's offensive option after he throws it on your shield and punish that, or just go for risky grabs up front and then keep Diddy in the air for as long as possible. Diddy commands the pace of the match the entire time, being able to punish you for most things that you do, then get a grab and deal 15-20% damage every time, repeating the situation over and over. Characters with good burst can at least reactively punish banana pulls, but it takes a lot of focus and can often cause you to get caught off guard by something else like monkey flip. And then there is dtilt. FFFFfffffff***ing dtilt. It's just fast enough that you can't reactively punish a single one of them on your shield, and it leads into everything including itself for like 15% at certain ranges. When talking about abusive gameplans Diddy definitely still fits in in my opinion. Two different fast and safe options in neutral leading into decently damaging grab combos and smashes all at the same time, not to mention that uthrow uair still has ranges where it's a 50:50 kill while bthrow and fthrow are both stock cap kill throws at around 140% and 160%. This character is by far the most draining one to play against. AAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaa

As ZSS the matchup has always felt like an uphill, although nothing massive, just difficult in terms of precision and focus. The way Nickriddle beats MVD and the way Nairo beat Zero seems to be high risk high reward grabs and maintaining advantage as much as possible. Not something you want to resort to when you have tournaments once every 1½ months or so, but it is what it is.

 

[Kofu]

And finally, was firmly this month's biggest loser. Apparently only really bad players lost to DHD this month, like Abadango.

Your wit is desiccatingly dry.

My main not only had poor representation but also the lowest reported win percentage. Ouch.

The "STDEVs" column is "standard deviations" I assume?

 

[juddy96]

Top 16 of KSB 2016 (8 players got floated through pools, so really only top 8 or specific matches should be used for data)

http://challonge.com/KSB2016S4T16T

Winner gets a trip to an American tournament of their choosing.

1) Kamemushi
2) Komorikiri
3) KEN
4) Ginko
5) You3
5) Nasubi
7) SHIG | 9B
7) Earth
9) Ranai
9) Atelier
9) Shogun
9) Masashi
13) Souther
13) ikep
13) Yamanyon
13) Ri-ma

 

[Wintermelon43]

Top 16 of KSB 2016 (8 players got floated through pools, so really only top 8 or specific matches should be used for data)

http://challonge.com/KSB2016S4T16T

Winner gets a trip to an American tournament of their choosing.

1) Kamemushi
2) Komorikiri

So basicially, Kameushi won this entire tournament, beating Ri-ma, 9B, Nasubi, and KOMORIKIRI. This isn't even his only results recently, all throughout last month (Yes, it's May now), Kameushi has been taking names and iirc winning some tournaments. Not only this, but Daiki and Scatt have both been getting good results with Mega Man too. Kameushi and Scatt (Espicially Kameushi) have been showing all of Mega Man's potential, and how he is actually pretty good. You can see by footage of his Mega Man how much crazy stuff you can do with him. And now, Kameushi has a free trip to any american tournament (He'll probably pick EVO, maybe CEO or Apex) so we can see how he performs in America too, and he'll probably take names there too. This will end up putting Mega Man on a huge rise. Bold statement, but by the end of the year, I think he might end up top 20, something I thought would happen after 3 or so years. I'm interested to see how Mega Man ends up.

But yea, I predicted Mega Man would rise to high tier. ANOTHER PREDICTION DOWN! (Srrsly, I thought bayo would be S tier at the start, no one believed me. Guess how wrong they were)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

But yea, I predicted Mega Man would rise to high tier.

He's got potential, nobody's denying that, but there's a loooooooooooooong way to go yet.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Wintermelon43]

He's got potential, nobody's denying that, but there's a loooooooooooooong way to go yet.

Smooth Criminal

But he is or almost already there right now. imo he's 28th and most people seem to think he's around that area. So that means most people think he is high tier.

So I don't see how there's a looooooong way to go

 

[HeavyLobster]

People always talk about how Ganondorf can take a stock in 4-5 hits, but his disadvantage and offstage are bad enough that many characters only need to win neutral the same amount of times against him, whilst having far better neutrals.

Most of his MUs are terrible if people play extremely lame against him. It's just that most people don't do it because it's boring/can be draining to maintain constantly.

Generally his high tier MUs are like that, but just about the only characters below high-mid who are likely to actually beat him worse than 60-40 are and (personally I think MM is high-mid anyways). Characters who are great in both neutral and advantage tend to be pretty brutal for him, but ones which are only strong in one of these areas are more manageable, especially if they happen to be weak in disadvantage. Dorf's recovery isn't the best, but he can still hang around a while if the opponent's edgeguarding isn't particularly strong. Likewise his neutral isn't great, but his tools generally command respect from chars without elite neutrals themselves. Playing lame is a good strategy vs. Dorf generally speaking, but Dorf can generally deal with shields well enough, and most projectiles are manageable for him as well. What really is an issue for him is mobility used defensively, which is less of a concern once you get past top tiers with elite mobility specs.
tldr; Ganondorf gets bodied by top tiers, but is reasonably competitive vs. mid/low tiers.

 

[bc1910]

Mega Man is not high tier. He's at the lower end of the "borderline" crew and could easily be riding on MU inexperience. There have been surges of MM results like this before. He's good, but a lot of characters are good.

Bayonetta split opinion at her release but tons of people were saying she's S-tier or even better than pre-patch Sheik.

Stop patting yourself on the back. Nothing you said showed good foresight, or was even correct.

 

[Lag Chan]

Seeing both and getting wins over gives me some hope that will be able to handle her in a similar manner as I'd mentioned before, something that's manageable and isn't some crazy 70/30 matchup like it is for the super heavies. At the very least, can handle far easier than or would.

 

[HoSmash4]

I'm curious, where did the Japanese Greninjas go? :/

 

[MistressRemilia]

I'm curious, where did the Japanese Greninjas go? :/

They were never here in the first place.
It's always been aMSa & Some, maybe a bunch of random that either can't place or switched.
Both are extremely inconsistent & dont go to all events.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Disclaimer: I havent watched any of the vods yet, but from experience, I am going to dissect what happened at Midwest Mayhem 2.

Venue/Stream: The TO (Joe Bones) has a notoriously weird rep in Chicago. He often doesn't go for the best venue that could house or maintain Smash events. He goes for the cheapest and that usually backfires on him. I need you guys to watch Midwest Mayhem (the first one), and both Dismantles (1 and 2). He has the ability though to bring in big names since he has hosted the most their. Overall, I don't think Joe is the best, but he gets it done.

Tyroy: Bias may curse me here, but I truthfully wasn't surprised he took 2nd to Zinoto. He has lost every time to him. People are like "he beat Abadango, istudying; etc". He is ranked number 1 in Chicago for a reason lol. Chicago is a hub for serious talent. Anyway, the salty commentators. I dunno who was commentating, but I incline some of you to join the Chicago Smash 4 FB group. Toxic as hell when it comes to Bayo. Nuff said about that.

I repeat this mantra whenever I can, Midwest ain't weak, we just hate to travel.

PS: I gotta give shout outs to anonymous moniker for taking 9th. When he's at our local tourneys, he places kinda below his level, but played well today.
#Chambana

 

[RDR7]

Ganondorf actually does do well against Puff, as his anti-aerials are really good and she dies very easily. It's probably Dorf's easiest, but it's not unwinnable for Puff. It's 55-45 to 60-40 Dorf's advantage, though Puff's gimps are scary for him. He's also not that big a Rest target due to being more tall than fat, and should Puff whiff Rest Reverse Warlock Punch OHKOs her. Less confident in Bowser/Zard bodying her, as their anti-aerial tools aren't as good, at least not from the kinds of angles she likes to approach from.

We had speclar (puff main) pretty much destroy almost all of the great ganons. Kosk, and Verm being 2 of those ganons. Proving it's not in his favor. Kosk even went to saying "55-45 puff's favor". Proper reactionary playstyle, punishing ganon's lag and solid gimps according to Speclar take the matchup in Puff's favor. No main bias but I still lower it to 50-50, although any other puff would tell you we win. Then some ganons say they win. *sigh* So many opinions. This is why matchup talk is garbage, just play the game. ; )

 

[bc1910]

Tyroy: Bias may curse me here, but I truthfully wasn't surprised he took 2nd to Zinoto. He has lost every time to him. People are like "he beat Abadango, istudying; etc". He is ranked number 1 in Chicago for a reason lol. Chicago is a hub for serious talent. Anyway, the salty commentators. I dunno who was commentating, but I incline some of you to join the Chicago Smash 4 FB group. Toxic as hell when it comes to Bayo. Nuff said about that.

I feel bad for Tyroy. As the OG "carried" Bayonetta player he attracts such an unfair amount of vitriol. These players are still people.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't think Tyroy is an amazing player, but he's solid and he legitimately outplayed many of his opponents.

 

[TriTails]

People always talk about how Ganondorf can take a stock in 4-5 hits, but his disadvantage and offstage are bad enough that many characters only need to win neutral the same amount of times against him, whilst having far better neutrals.

Most of his MUs are terrible if people play extremely lame against him. It's just that most people don't do it because it's boring/can be draining to maintain constantly.

Ganon's disadvantage is nonsense, honestly. Once he is offstage and is not in range for Ganoncide consider him dead.

I mean, friggin' Little Mac doesn't get punished for landing a recovery move. With Ganon you just run to his Up-B, tech wall jump and smack him away (Even if you don't take KB, you can double jump and hit him IIRC. Because I remember doing this with Luigi, and that man goes nowhere in the air). The same applies for Falcon except Falcon is a better character by a wide, wide margin (And can actually recover high thanks to his Up-B preservering his airspeed and less time to react, plus you take more damage).

Onstage he's just breakfast when he gets grabbed. Landing options are scary but while not as unsafe as Bowser's, still unsafe. One OoS option is decent with Up-B but it has fairly low reward for its risk. T-rex grab doesn't help. Jumpsquat is 7 frames.

I suppose his rewards will never be buffed in any meaningful way, as that's probably the only way on buffing him without betraying his design. Doing that would destroy low to low-mid level players. But I would like a better recovery, because having a recovery that punishes you while having one of the shortest distance in the game is kinda ridiculous.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I feel bad for Tyroy. As the OG "carried" Bayonetta player he attracts such an unfair amount of vitriol. These players are still people.

I'm not gonna lie, I don't think Tyroy is an amazing player, but he's solid and he legitimately outplayed many of his opponents.

I dunno what you mean by "carried" as he was garnering respect from the likes of Zero and Ally pre Bayonetta. Also he was suspected to be ranked number 1 before Bayonetta too. I must also add, that Chicago differentiates their hate of Bayonetta from Tyroy. They realize Tyroy is good, but they hate Bayonetta.

I agree, I don't think Tyroy is absolutely astounding as a player, but that more to do with his play style and character choice. His Sheik was suffocating.

Also for my frame of reference of suffocating, I play Fox and MK players a lot and find a way to beat most of them 1v1. If anyone knows what suffocation is, play/watch Fox/MKand DK. It's not fun, but I personally never feel suffocated against most players. I often feel pressed or panicked, but not feeling like there is no option. Tyroy's Sheik (and playstyle for taht matter) makes me feel suffocated.

Notable I've beaten are:
Ksev (1-1 in set count)
Slowjoe (2-1 in set count)
Dom (3-0)
Every Fox in Central Illinois (10-1)

My MK record isn't as clean but I'll list them

Demitus (2-0)
Katakiri (1-1)
Tyroy (1-3)
Zguh (2-1)
Every other (undefeated)

 

[HeavyLobster]

I suppose his rewards will never be buffed in any meaningful way, as that's probably the only way on buffing him without betraying his design. Doing that would destroy low to low-mid level players. But I would like a better recovery, because having a recovery that punishes you while having one of the shortest distance in the game is kinda ridiculous.

Airspeed buffs would improve both his reward and his recovery in a very meaningful way, but not in a way which would allow low to low-mid players to destroy other low to low-mid players, as most of the improvement would be to grab followups, and generally just getting grabs with Dorf takes a bit of conditioning. Also Rockcrock should be patched out for both Falcon and Dorf by making successful Up-Bs have less endlag.

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm curious, where did the Japanese Greninjas go? :/

Some only plays online mostly. He hardly ever goes to tourneys. I dunno why.

Like I said before, Europe is the best place to go for greninja talent. It has more players, and they're all pretty good. Elexiao, Eddy, and iStudying, mainly.

The Best American Greninja is probably Venia, he's been on a hiatus, but he'll back soon (thank god). Illusion, P2P with Gibus, and Ice Arrow are all some other good american greninja players.

Honestly, the mythical "Japanese Greninja" was never really a thing. Greninja completely fell out of Japan's favor after the nerfs. Nietono dropped him after the patch.

 

[bc1910]

I dunno what you mean by "carried" as he was garnering respect from the likes of Zero and Ally pre Bayonetta. Also he was suspected to be ranked number 1 before Bayonetta too. I must also add, that Chicago differentiates their hate of Bayonetta from Tyroy. They realize Tyroy is good, but they hate Bayonetta.

I agree, I don't think Tyroy is absolutely astounding as a player, but that more to do with his play style and character choice. His Sheik was suffocating.

Also for my frame of reference of suffocating, I play Fox and MK players a lot and find a way to beat most of them 1v1. If anyone knows what suffocation is, play/watch Fox/MKand DK. It's not fun, but I personally never feel suffocated against most players. I often feel pressed or panicked, but not feeling like there is no option. Tyroy's Sheik (and playstyle for taht matter) makes me feel suffocated.

Notable I've beaten are:
Ksev (1-1 in set count)
Slowjoe (2-1 in set count)
Dom (3-0)
Every Fox in Central Illinois (10-1)

My MK record isn't as clean but I'll list them

Demitus (2-0)
Katakiri (1-1)
Tyroy (1-3)
Zguh (2-1)
Every other (undefeated)

I don't think he is "carried" hence the quotation marks. He's not an incredible player but he's good enough to pilot good characters, and nothing else really matters. Carried as a concept doesn't make that much sense. Everyone is carried by their character. It is completely unsurprising that people who pick good characters place better and people who don't place worse.

It comes to how much skill a character is perceived to take. Bayonetta is perceived to not take much skill so people give her players **** for it. No-one minds when Sheik, Ryu or even Diddy takes a tournament.

 

[Kofu]

Airspeed buffs would improve both his reward and his recovery in a very meaningful way, but not in a way which would allow low to low-mid players to destroy other low to low-mid players, as most of the improvement would be to grab followups, and generally just getting grabs with Dorf takes a bit of conditioning. Also Rockcrock should be patched out for both Falcon and Dorf by making successful Up-Bs have less endlag.

At least it isn't Brawl Dark Dive, which, for the uninitiated, had low enough hitstun that many characters could hit him immediately after the grab around 40%.

But I wouldn't mind seeing the grabs get some frames shaved off.

 

[Y2Kay]

Diddy seems to have an issue with strong zoners. C3PO's loss to Link falls in line with a bevy of strong evidence: Diddy's losses to Olimar and Megaman in Japan, Pacman and Megaman matchup charts claiming to have an advantage against him (and Zinoto's MU chart claiming that Olimar and Megaman have advantages against him), and his widely accepted disadvantage to Rosalina.

Meanwhile, Diddy in results and theory is strong against footsie-based characters, such as the sword users (e.g. Marth and Ike), Ryu, and Mewtwo. Characters who rely on aerial approaches or burst movement also tend to have issues with Diddy, like ZSS, Sheik, and Bayonetta. He's highly relevant to the metagame because these characters are fundamentally pretty strong (and/or have been buffed by patches, hello FE crew).

Both of these observations are comfortably explained by Diddy's extremely strong anti-approach game. Between rising f-air, falling f-air, shield/dash grab, and banana peel toss, Diddy can not only wall characters out but punish them for even something as simple as an empty landing. The counterplay to this so far involves just not approaching Diddy and staying grounded, which is why grounded zoners do so well; having projectiles as said zoners tend to have (or Luma in the case of Rosalina) also helps to reduce banana tossing opportunities.

Basically Diddy Kong is an anti-meta character. Whenever the meta (or the bracket) is full of zoners playing defensively, his performance will drop. But when the meta is dominated by fast pressure-based or spacing characters, Diddy's going to do pretty well.

Funny you Mention this, because LoF Blue (Mewtwo) has beaten C3PO multiple times:

 

[Man Li Gi]

I also have to ask, in a more objective tone, what makes a player "good"? Is it having a great background in fundamentals? Is it having practice? Is it being able to read your opponent and aptly reacting to them?

Going off that I see most people fall into the latter two categories. When I watch Ally, I see him follow all three, but delve mostly into the last part while whenever I see ZeRo, Dabuz, Zinoto, I see a reliance on fundamentals.

Void seems like a highly practiced Sheik that relies on said practice a lot more than he should. Whenever he is put in an odd spot, watch him squirm. I have to say the same about Tyroy as he squirms in odd spots.

So I guess I answered my own question, in that fundamentals are most important.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I also have to ask, in a more objective tone, what makes a player "good"? Is it having a great background in fundamentals? Is it having practice? Is it being able to read your opponent and aptly reacting to them?

Going off that I see most people fall into the latter two categories. When I watch Ally, I see him follow all three, but delve mostly into the last part while whenever I see ZeRo, Dabuz, Zinoto, I see a reliance on fundamentals.

Void seems like a highly practiced Sheik that relies on said practice a lot more than he should. Whenever he is put in an odd spot, watch him squirm. I have to say the same about Tyroy as he squirms in odd spots.

So I guess I answered my own question, in that fundamentals are most important.

I agree fundamentals are most important, but for a sightly different reason. I think there are simply too many characters to realistically get sufficient practice against all of them. Multiply that by the legal stages, since those impact matchups too, and it gets pretty huge.

Similarly, I guess flexibility is also something worth focusing on. For basically the same reasons.

 

[Das Koopa]

this is the weekend of badly ran tournies judging by Midwest Mayhem and EGLX

 

[Y2Kay]

this is the weekend of badly ran tournies judging by Midwest Mayhem and EGLX

Finals Week man

Colleges are usually some good venues, but not at this time of year.

 

[Twoyears]

We had speclar (puff main) pretty much destroy almost all of the great ganons. Kosk, and Verm being 2 of those ganons. Proving it's not in his favor. Kosk even went to saying "55-45 puff's favor". Proper reactionary playstyle, punishing ganon's lag and solid gimps according to Speclar take the matchup in Puff's favor. No main bias but I still lower it to 50-50, although any other puff would tell you we win. Then some ganons say they win. *sigh* So many opinions. This is why matchup talk is garbage, just play the game. ; )

Do you have a link for those matches? One of my friends always plays puff so I'm curious as to how other ganon mains play the match up.

 

[my_T]

people still not giving MM his very much due credit? I've always thought this character was high mid tier at minimum because of the stuff daiki was doing way back in early 2015. Correct me if im wrong but haven't Scatt and Kamemushi have won like 3 or 4 tournaments total with MM in the past month? Both of which have beaten some very good players while doing so.

His rep in the US was pretty non existent for a while. Now Scatt comes along and iirc he has placed pretty well in almost every major tourney he's attended. Match-up inexperience could apply.

MM has always done pretty good for himself in Japan. Match-up inexperience does not apply over there as he has always had decent rep.

For a community that is so pro results what more do you need because he ain't bad in theory either. I think he's top 25 minimum; arguably top 20.

 

[RDR7]

Do you have a link for those matches? One of my friends always plays puff so I'm curious as to how other ganon mains play the match up.

I'd have to ask Speclar. I'll pm you more details about it if he gives me replays.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I also have to ask, in a more objective tone, what makes a player "good"? Is it having a great background in fundamentals? Is it having practice? Is it being able to read your opponent and aptly reacting to them?

Going off that I see most people fall into the latter two categories. When I watch Ally, I see him follow all three, but delve mostly into the last part while whenever I see ZeRo, Dabuz, Zinoto, I see a reliance on fundamentals.

Void seems like a highly practiced Sheik that relies on said practice a lot more than he should. Whenever he is put in an odd spot, watch him squirm. I have to say the same about Tyroy as he squirms in odd spots.

So I guess I answered my own question, in that fundamentals are most important.

Fundamentals is absolutely the foundation for greatness in any competitive fighter. Everything always goes back to that, especially when we talk about consistency.

C3PO has the raw talent, but gives in to urges to be random or go for broke in situations that are very risky.

Also another thing is alot of players don't "play the game". They do not recognize or play according to the concepts of risk vs reward, converting neutral to advantage, safely pressing advantage, and minimizing scenarios in disadvantage where the opponent can cover multiple options.

Give an example. @Asdioh and I spar often. He had this really horrible habit of attacking when he was above me. A clear state of disadvantage. A simple Shoryu from Ryu will beat an offensive option kirby tries. The only option Kirby has that could allow a conversion in that situation is dair, but its not safe at all and is a heavy commitment.

He eventually noticed this terrible habit and we spoke on it. He recognized that it just wasnt worth it to "disrespect" Ryu in that situation and risk death. He started to respect my advantage state and took more evasive action in those situations.

His win rate went up instantly in our matches, mostly because I was no longer getting easy kills when I had put him at an obvious disadvantage.

Just...play the ****ing game guys.

Stop doing wake-up attacks when your opponent is RIGHT NEXT TO YOU IN SHIELD!!

Stop doing random ass smash attacks that dont have a chance in hell of connecting.

STOP ROLLING AWAY FROM THE LEDGE WHEN YOUR OPPONENT IS HANGING ON IT!!! LEDGE TRAP FOOLS!!! LEARN EM!!!

Play the damn game, you mooks!!!

 

[Appledees]

To be honest MU experience can really apply to like half (or even more) the cast. I can see how Megaman can honestly fit this bill cause he is a rare character to see but when you see matches from Scatt and Kamemushi against high level players and doing well even against bad mus its obvious to tell this character has alot more things going for him and its not all based on MU inexperience.

I don't think Mega is high tier at all but he's definitely more solid than some people are giving him credit here

 

[Man Li Gi]

Fundamentals is absolutely the foundation for greatness in any competitive fighter. Everything always goes back to that, especially when we talk about consistency.

C3PO has the raw talent, but gives in to urges to be random or go for broke in situations that are very risky.

Also another thing is alot of players don't "play the game". They do not recognize or play according to the concepts of risk vs reward, converting neutral to advantage, safely pressing advantage, and minimizing scenarios in disadvantage where the opponent can cover multiple options.

Give an example. @Asdioh and I spar often. He had this really horrible habit of attacking when he was above me. A clear state of disadvantage. A simple Shoryu from Ryu will beat an offensive option kirby tries. The only option Kirby has that could allow a conversion in that situation is dair, but its not safe at all and is a heavy commitment.

He eventually noticed this terrible habit and we spoke on it. He recognized that it just wasnt worth it to "disrespect" Ryu in that situation and risk death. He started to respect my advantage state and took more evasive action in those situations.

His win rate went up instantly in our matches, mostly because I was no longer getting easy kills when I had put him at an obvious disadvantage.

Just...play the ****ing game guys.

Stop doing wake-up attacks when your opponent is RIGHT NEXT TO YOU IN SHIELD!!

Stop doing random *** smash attacks that dont have a chance in hell of connecting.

STOP ROLLING AWAY FROM THE LEDGE WHEN YOUR OPPONENT IS HANGING ON IT!!! LEDGE TRAP FOOLS!!! LEARN EM!!!

Play the damn game, you mooks!!!

Playing the game is a great mantra that I wish my brain could follow.

Legit, I feel like many people have the capability to be the beast they wanna be, but for some reason or another lost their cool and lose the game.

As Mike Tyson used to say "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".

Playing the game implies that you stick with your fundamentals through even getting socked in the mouth.

Actually, let me modify that last statement, you have to stick with THE GAME'S fundamentals if you want to win. Don't try and extend yourself doing superfluous activities as it could lead to wasted effort and time. If you have to add external elements to your game play to somehow progress and get better, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Vermanubis]

We had speclar (puff main) pretty much destroy almost all of the great ganons. Kosk, and Verm being 2 of those ganons. Proving it's not in his favor. Kosk even went to saying "55-45 puff's favor". Proper reactionary playstyle, punishing ganon's lag and solid gimps according to Speclar take the matchup in Puff's favor. No main bias but I still lower it to 50-50, although any other puff would tell you we win. Then some ganons say they win. *sigh* So many opinions. This is why matchup talk is garbage, just play the game. ; )

I'd be remiss to say anyone was "destroyed." I can't say enough good about Spec's knowledge and approach to the MU, but I think it'd be more accurate to say we went through the growing pains of a MU completely foreign to us, and after we did, the results certainly weren't "destruction"

 

[ArikadoSD]

Why do people hesitate to use the word "carried" or whatever?

When a person was 9th or 4th or 5th or whatever on their PR and jumped to 1st when they picked up Bayo, and started taking names such as Abadango and iStudying that they normally wouldn't have, and placed 2nd in a pretty stacked tournament, they're definitely carried by Bayonetta.

When a player goes from barely getting top 8 at xanadus most of the time to being a legitimate national threat that easily makes it to top 32/top 16 at extremely stacked tournaments, then they're definitely carried by Bayo.

When a literal random who's biggest achievement was randomly upsetting Anti with Peach picks up Bayo and also becomes a legitimate threat at very stacked nationals and gets top 16/32 then they're carried by bayo.

It's pretty much a fact at this point, why people wouldn't accept it is beyond me.

Sure, play to win, blame the game, don't blame the players, they were already good players pre-bayo (altho i extremely doubt that LMAO) etc. I'm not saying don't do any of that, I'm just saying if a player is carried by bayo then they're carried, no other way around it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Being carried by a character implies the player lacks skill, and with Bayonetta and Cloud, implies they're nearly unbeatable or whatever even though the player could of gotten similarly better results with another high or top character.

 

[RDR7]

I'd be remiss to say anyone was "destroyed." I can't say enough good about Spec's knowledge and approach to the MU, but I think it'd be more accurate to say we went through the growing pains of a MU completely foreign to us, and after we did, the results certainly weren't "destruction"

Pleased to meet you Verm! Pardon my harsh wording, I was told by Speclar himself it was more in his favor however, it is understandable to be foreign to puff. (if its true) Speclar seems to have more knowledge than most of us on the Ganon matchup though which is why I pointed it out. I appreciate you being nice as possible about it and again sorry about my harsh wording.