Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Gamegenie222]

Neokan Party results

1) Glutonny
2) Anragon
3) EVK | Griffith
4) Vanaheim
5) Purner
5) Phogos
7) Scarhi
7) Biglink

http://challonge.com/NeokanPartyBrackets

Oh snap a Falco got second need to check the VOD's for that.

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Seems like zoners are just on the rise in general. are all doing much better as of recent. I wonder why this is happening and how the meta will adapt to it. It's probably occurring now that the aforementioned three don't get out-zoned by disgusting needles as easily or as often in bracket, and that their gameplan of playing keepaway and annoying with projectiles works well against . I don't know if they're gonna make much of a splash to warrant any significant metagame changes though, people will probably just adapt or counterpick someone who deals with zoning well like etc.

 

[Das Koopa]

Poke with an insane reverse 3-0 on KID Goggles

 

[Lag Chan]

Seems like zoners are just on the rise in general. are all doing much better as of recent. I wonder why this is happening and how the meta will adapt to it. It's probably occurring now that the aforementioned three don't get out-zoned by disgusting needles as easily or as often in bracket, and that their gameplan of playing keepaway and annoying with projectiles works well against . I don't know if they're gonna make much of a splash to warrant any significant metagame changes though, people will probably just adapt or counterpick someone who deals with zoning well like etc.

Unfortunately that's pretty much the case. As long as exists, zoning characters aren't going to be solo viable any time soon. We're lucky as it is that and are considered high tier.

 

[Das Koopa]

add Duck Hunt to that list of rising zoners

I've said for a while that as the meta goes along that zoners will inevitably be more viable when people perfect "lame" play. I expect to see more Mii Gunner and WFT.

 

[Peppermint1201]

I'm not really convinced that Ness can be considered to do well against zoners. His fsmash is unreliable at best to reflect things and his down-b is laggy and only works against energy projectiles. Even if it does affect a projectile it heals Ness, which is useful but non-aggressive. He doesn't have the specialized moves to stand an especially strong chance against projectiles imo.

 

[Peabnut Bubber]

While I agree with everything in this post, I'm pretty sure Mario takes Sheik's spot now as a gatekeeper of sorts.
That matchup hasn't gotten any easier. Mario still takes you from 0-60 in 3.5

Until this matchup is figured out, I'm not sure if we can say mega man is purely solo viable. But like you said, I'm positive that mega man will be higher up in the long run.

The Megaman - Mario MU has been figured out. It's not terrible at all, and IMO it's probably a 50-50 MU. Here's a quick, unfinished write-up: http://smashboards.com/threads/boss...-2-0-week-9-kirby.431933/page-6#post-21109978

 

[Das Koopa]

EGLX Top 8

Nairo
SuperGirlKels

Mew2King
Ally

IceNinja
Poke

Holy Nightmare
San

 

[Y2Kay]

There's another tourney in Chicago. Istudying, Void, and Rich are there.

The stream is called Galloping ghost arcade.

 

[Ninety]

How many attendants for EGLX Smash 4 Singles?

 

[Das Koopa]

IceNinja up 2-1 over Poke

Ice takes it 3-1

 

[Nu~]

The Megaman - Mario MU has been figured out. It's not terrible at all, and IMO it's probably a 50-50 MU. Here's a quick, unfinished write-up: http://smashboards.com/threads/boss...-2-0-week-9-kirby.431933/page-6#post-21109978

Excellent!
I'll be sure to give this a read ASAP

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Palutena's tilts aren't too shabby at ledge option coverage it seems, along with her bair stuffing any ledge attack options. Very impressive play despite the SD on both sides.

 

[Solfiner]

Nice to see such great Palutena play. Those Nair edgeguards were on point.

 

[Djmarcus44]

add Duck Hunt to that list of rising zoners

I've said for a while that as the meta goes along that zoners will inevitably be more viable when people perfect "lame" play. I expect to see more Mii Gunner and WFT.

Actually there is more Mii Gunner play happening. GSR Flama got top 8 in the most recent Mexican regional using Mii Gunner for most of his matches (He won one game with Mario, but he switched back to Mii Gunner to beat his opponent's Lucario). I couldn't find his losers bracket match on YouTube, but I know that he got somewhere between 4th and 7th. The most notable players there were Wonf and Addy. AEMehr took a game off of NCJacobT's Pikachu, but he lost the set, and I am not sure how well he placed.

Lag Chan , While Rosalina beats zoners pretty badly she doesn't keep all of them from being solo viable. Some of them have the tools to hold their own in that matchup. For example, Gunner and Megaman have projectiles that have low enough endlag to be able to punish Rosalina for using Gravitational Pull at close range. I also know that Gunner has some moves that are pretty good at getting rid of Luma pretty easily such as dsmash, fsmash, dash attack, and flame pillar.

After playing several friendlies against a Bayonetta player that is better than me and checking the tournament results for Gunner vs Bayonetta, I think that Mii Gunner goes even in this matchup. In my experience, I have been able to win most of my matches against his Bayonetta (The only time I lost was on a stage that wasn't tournament legal. I was even able to win a match when I wasn't playing on my best controller). Gunner's charge blast is a good punish tool in this matchup. It has the priority to beat out all of Bayonetta's attacks, and it kills at decent percents against Bayonetta since she is pretty light. Flame pillar is also good for edgeguarding Bayonetta since it beats out her recovery options, and it can cover the ledge when spaced properly. This allows Mii Gunner to be one of the few characters that can actually take advantage of Bayonetta's increased landing lag with her specials, since going to the ledge isn't safe against Gunner, and Gunner can cover her landing with charge blast regardless of what special she lands with. It is also helpful that Gunner's up smash and fsmash have long lasting hitboxes that can hit Bayonetta if she uses Witch Time on them.

I would say that Gunner has a slight advantage over Bayonetta, but the tournament results are not in Gunner's favor. GSR Flama lost 2-1 to Wonf's Bayonetta in the last Mexican regional. While this would be indicative to a matchup in Bayonetta's favor, Wonf had the edge in matchup experience, and GSR Flama didn't play Gunner's grab game properly in this matchup (In the first minute of the matchup he missed a guaranteed throw combo, and he wasted a charge blast by jumping before shooting the charge blast. He would have gotten the charge blast to hit from his forward throw if he would have shot the charge blast instead of jumping to shoot the charge blast).

 

[Das Koopa]

Nairo 3-0 SuperGirlKels

I don't know why she went Kirby games 1/2

 

[Chalice]

M2K Winner's Finals over Ally

FLUDD a staple in the Cloud match up? Ally's use of it made me feel like the Cloud VS Mario match up 4:6

Also that clutch FSmash

 

[Funbot28]

I was wondering how many players actually believe that Bayonetta deserves her own tier (a.k.a SS tier) ala Brawl Meta Knight? I mean I could see it happen, but I wonder if others agree that she deviates from the rest of the top tiers a tad bit.

 

[FeelMeUp]

It's a staple in the Cloud MU, sure, but FLUDD doesn't make Mario no longer get crapped on by Cloud.

 

[juddy96]

Zenyou's Mario wins in a grueling 15 game clash with Tyrant's Diddy to take Frame Perfect at CSU Northridge. http://challonge.com/FP_TOP16

1) Zenyou
2) Tyrant
3) Aphro
4) K9sbruce
5) Larry Lurr
5) Aarvark
7) Jonny Westside
7) Zan

 

[Y2Kay]

Rich brown and istudying are playing each other

how it literally feels to be me right now:

Spoiler

 

[FlynnCL]

Huh, does Spring ignore air-dodges? That's quite incredible considering how dangerous of a position it puts you in.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

From what I understand you can act before Sonic can and air dodge but if you don't know it's coming...

 

[Nu~]

Huh, does Spring ignore air-dodges? That's quite incredible considering how dangerous of a position it puts you in.

Yea, it's the same with all spring/trampoline moves. Mega man and pacman can do the same thing with their respective UP Bs.

It isn't very threatening when seen coming however because of what Plain Yogurt just said. The opponent can just Uair you before you do it to them.


This only becomes scary if mega man or sonic uses it on the ground and manages to come back down and bounce on the spring a second tine. The second time, they can both act out of the bounce immediately. However, it's much harder to get the opponent to bounce on rush/spring in that scenario.

 

[Asdioh]

Nairo 3-0 SuperGirlKels

I don't know why she went Kirby games 1/2

Well, the other option for her is Sonic right? All I've ever heard from Sonic/ZSS mains (especially when I was in NE, where Marss consistently beat Craftis, who is an awesome Sonic) was that ZSS significantly wins the MU, and if I recall, that's been the trend in most tournaments, no? With top level ZSS players generally beating the top level Sonic... Japan may be an exception, but I'm not sure. I also know that Marss listed Kirby as one of the characters he thinks should be able to beat him if a good player came along.

edit: that said, I haven't seen the games.. was it awful?

 

[AEMehr]

Actually there is more Mii Gunner play happening. GSR Flama got top 8 in the most recent Mexican regional using Mii Gunner for most of his matches (He won one game with Mario, but he switched back to Mii Gunner to beat his opponent's Lucario). I couldn't find his losers bracket match on YouTube, but I know that he got somewhere between 4th and 7th. The most notable players there were Wonf and Addy. AEMehr took a game off of NCJacobT's Pikachu, but he lost the set, and I am not sure how well he placed.

The tournaments (which are SoCal Locals) I usually go to end with me in 9th or something close to that. I've broken top 8 a couple times but usually not many PR'd players go to those tournaments.

Edit: oh and thanks for the shout out lol

 

[Das Koopa]

How many attendants for EGLX Smash 4 Singles?

164 according to Juddy's google doc

 

[New_Dumal]

Zenyou's Mario wins in a grueling 15 game clash with Tyrant's Diddy to take Frame Perfect at CSU Northridge. http://challonge.com/FP_TOP16

1) Zenyou
2) Tyrant

So... Tyrant is playing more with Diddy nowadays ?
Anybody here knows what Tyrant think about MK right now ? MK was my secondary, became my main character, but 1.1.5 exactly everybody I was recently playing.
Sheik was quite nerfed, it's very hard to play consistent with Sheik now,,, but she still have a amazing neutral and is a very strong character anyway. In the other hand, MK nerfs...
I just don't understand, he was never top tier material.
I don't think he should be qualified as high tier anymore. I think he is not at the same level with Sonic, ZSS, Ryu, Mario, Diddy.
I mean... MK isn't bad, but I don't think he is completely viable lately, and I'm curious to know that Tyrant think about it.

 

[juddy96]

So... Tyrant is playing more with Diddy nowadays ?
Anybody here knows what Tyrant think about MK right now ? MK was my secondary, became my main character, but 1.1.5 exactly everybody I was recently playing.
Sheik was quite nerfed, it's very hard to play consistent with Sheik now,,, but she still have a amazing neutral and is a very strong character anyway. In the other hand, MK nerfs...
I just don't understand, he was never top tier material.
I don't think he should be qualified as high tier anymore. I think he is not at the same level with Sonic, ZSS, Ryu, Mario, Diddy.
I mean... MK isn't bad, but I don't think he is completely viable lately, and I'm curious to know that Tyrant think about it.

He only went Diddy for the Mario MU.

 

[Nu~]

I think, in the Megaman (and probably many zoner MUs) that saving limit unless you *know* it will hit is the optimal way to play. Sure, random reads and traps are good for damage, but they often do partial damage if you get hit with the lingering one, while Cloud with more mobility is just... always better. Followups, recovering, defense, offense... AND, since he has LCS on deck you have to be way more respectful, which has an intangible impact on the game in a great way. As bc said, he is a top tier and he is hard to fight, this is a big reason why. His 'thing' happens every game, he can exert pressure by standing near (slightly weak shield -> LCS time! Though rolling can happen, i'd wait to see it consistently before I call it a viable punish), and counterplay is difficult, and he is a good character anyways and blah blah blah, we all know why Cloud is good.

BUT, he doesn't have particularly good buttons for pellets/leaf shield / defensive shielding / perfect shielding (A huge one ! Learn this!). I think he is much like ZSS honestly, for different reasons. Counterplay can make it hard for him to land any damage, and throws... meh. BUT, limit! Charging limit is scary. But the question for us to figure out in each MU, is do you approach to stifle the limit? Megaman just plucks pellets and projectiles at him, his question is always answered on how to handle Cloud and Cloud must approach.

Also something new we see Kamemushi, Scatt, and others doing.... metal blade to cover ledge options. It hits centre-out, so getting hit in your back can stage spike you.

Leafstool is having a leaf shield active, and hitting a leaf -> footstool, which is assisted by the fact their animation stops when they get hit with each leaf so unless they are mashing a button (bad for Cloud anyways) its hard to avoid.


Just clarifying some stuff if anyone didn't know.


Pivot ftilt -> 3 pellets is an amazing retreat option against short hops, and while you must give up space, you have chances to string the pellet hits into nair (which helps both knocking them away and shield safety!). THIS is why having a good ground poke is great vs Megaman, since shielding this retreat makes him lose space... but he can do it alooooot vs Cloud, safely, as Cloud awkwardly attempts a SH approach. The only thing keeping it even is Cloud's insane reward, which makes up for hitting this sequence approximately ~20 times... oof. So, its pretty easy to keep limit Cloud out, but having the threat of LCS changes everything. This is where I believe M2k is playing the MU wrong, though the attempted gimps are probably worth it, other LCS hits aren't unless they are assured, and he likes to go for them.

I know this is late, but can't cloud Dtilt underneath pellets and confirm that into more damage?

 

[deepseadiva]

2) Anragon
3) EVK | Griffith

Did anyone else think this is sooooooooo funny

 

[Jehtt]

I know this is late, but can't cloud Dtilt underneath pellets and confirm that into more damage?

Not grounded pellets. It won't usually go far enough to catch jumping pellets either (since mega man usually jumps backwards with them).

 

[Luco]

The reason that Bayonetta is brought up more is that we're seeing larger result jumps despite a lower skilled playerbase. It's pretty simple, honestly.

Are we? Or is it just that these jumps are being thrown in our face more because "omg 0-death combos MUST be OP." I actually suspect there are more cases of people dropping characters like Shulk and Duck Hunt and doing better and we're just not as aware of what that change means as opposed to Bayo. How many of our top players started with their current main? And how many of them did we actually know about close to the beginning of this game's lifespan?

 

[TheGlove]

Are we? Or is it just that these jumps are being thrown in our face more because "omg 0-death combos MUST be OP." I actually suspect there are more cases of people dropping characters like Shulk and Duck Hunt and doing better and we're just not as aware of what that change means as opposed to Bayo. How many of our top players started with their current main? And how many of them did we actually know about close to the beginning of this game's lifespan?

Well Nairo was basically only Robin, Dark Pit, and Zelda at the beginning and he at the time had losses to Nakat, Ally, and 6wx. As he gradually started to go more and more ZSS his results improved, although its important to remember he was also just straight up improving as a smash 4 player.

Abadongo's Japanese results improved a lot when he started playing MK I believe.

Komorikiri started being able to beat Ranai when he picked up Cloud

Trela's results have been better now that he has a consistetn main that is high tier

Tweek is more consistent now although his results were still really good with Bowser jr

MVD was originally Duck hunt and Little Mac, he's definitely more consistent with DIddy.

Zero, Mr R, Esam, Naka,t Fow, Shaky, Ryo Fatality, Dabuz, 6WX, Marss, Ranai, others have stayed the same with the addition of a couple secondaries. Although they were all playing high/Top tiers from the beginning

 

[Megamang]

Worth a mention is that Dark Pit and Robin were considerably worse at launch, and Zelda was hot garbage. ZSS was stronger and was fighting, generally, stronger characters with more polarizing options.

People say Bayonetta wouldn't stand out at launch... well yea, she'd lose to needles like everyone did. But she just feels like she is from a few patches ago with how she kills. Does struggle vs zoning.

Top bayonettas often seem to ignore Witch Time. This is especially obvious vs Zoning, when RAR Witch Time (makes you fall forwards) can land on a projectile and net her a huge damage string.

 

[ARGHETH]

Worth a mention is that Dark Pit and Robin were considerably worse at launch,

Really? Because he got, like, two moves changed since release (Arrows and Electroshock Arm). He might have been more irrelevant, but he wasn't much worse.

 

[Browny]

Yeah, I learned to respect Shoryuken, it was a very important (and obvious) lesson. In turn, Ryu learns to respect Kirby's... crouch. Short crouch, combined with a pretty good Dtilt, is actually a stupidly polarizing option in some matchups. The only reason Ryu stands a chance against Kirby is because of his great Dtilts and Dsmash. And when I learned the hitbox on Dsmash was a bit deceptive, I learned another layer of respect!

Bam, frame 5, 15-16 damage! Ryu's frame data/damage output on a move-by-move basis seems overtuned, but they're strangely not, in practice.

Eh, it sounds good when you only look at raw numbers but in practice, its not a good move at all when you consider other things with it.

Look at diddys dtilt for example. Frame 4 and only does 5.5% but it leads into grab+aerial at low %'s (5.5% + 5% + 9% = 19.5%) with a similar range and it kills at high % into usmash while being MUCH safer on block. Ryu's dsmash has awful KO potential.

Really, the only good thing about Ryus dsmash is its raw damage will win trades vs tilts which is about the only thing its good at.
As a KO move, its terrible and for a fast move, it does less damage than other sweeping attacks would be expected to start combos.

There's nothing in the game quite like Ryu's dsmash with its bizarre mix of speed and damage while having low knockback and large endlag. But its not a good trade overall. I know I would rather take a normal dsmash, than have some inferior version of his dtilt for a smash. Dtilt can lead into more damage, KO earlier and is safer.

 

[C0rvus]

Oh boy, release Robin. I try not to remember that period of time. Dark Pit has always been solid. If anything, the admittedly minor buffs he got over time kept him in the same level relative to the cast.

Re: Meta Knight. He's still high tier. His reward is still strong, his neutral is kinda simple but not bad. He can handle pretty much any character, just some are -1's. He also still shreds Rosalina, so that helps I guess. Although she isn't exactly dominating these days.

 

[Megamang]

Pit is a well rounder, who was fighting the higher power level of the top tiers. And him having a buff to his projectile and landing traps is not irrelevant.


Also, at release, safety on shield was a top tier trait. Having a disjoint was less important than it is now, because you were less likely to hit another hitbox compared to someone just flashing a shield and punishing you for swinging at all.

His combo's were not as optimized.

I will admit perhaps I was exaggerating the weakness of DP, and the power creep of lower level characters has probably almost evened out the nerfing of top tiers... But he wasn't as good, is all im saying. And shiek was busted beyond belief, and he was a worse choice than ZSS objectively, due to how borked she was. (Don't forget she had D-smash and paralyzer which actually benefitted from the old versions of shields).


Arrows Nairo could take or leave since he is always holding towards his opponent <3

 

[LordShade67]

Ryo

Worth noting, but Ike back in the 3DS days was nothing like he is now. There's a reason Fire Emblem Tier was a thing back then.