Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[BunbUn129]

So... Tyrant is playing more with Diddy nowadays ?
Anybody here knows what Tyrant think about MK right now ? MK was my secondary, became my main character, but 1.1.5 exactly everybody I was recently playing.
Sheik was quite nerfed, it's very hard to play consistent with Sheik now,,, but she still have a amazing neutral and is a very strong character anyway. In the other hand, MK nerfs...
I just don't understand, he was never top tier material.
I don't think he should be qualified as high tier anymore. I think he is not at the same level with Sonic, ZSS, Ryu, Mario, Diddy.
I mean... MK isn't bad, but I don't think he is completely viable lately, and I'm curious to know that Tyrant think about it.

Um...he was top tier material. MK had the most essential traits of a top tier: good mobility, frame data, edge-guarding, combos, KO set-ups, recovery, landing options, and one of the best punishes in the game. The difference between him and other top tiers is that he wasn't as well established. He started out under negative to mixed opinions and continued like that until people were shown what he was capable of, along with the buffs he received. It's not like Diddy, Sheik, ZSS, and Rosa, who have always been top tier and continue to be. And like them, he fully deserved the nerf he got. A character's tier position takes their MU spread as a primary factor, and MK's was one of the best. He had only one MU that was a major obstacle.

1.1.4 Meta Knight was a high tier character who happened to have one highly exploitable set-up that made him a top tier. It reminds me of the Ice Climbers in both Melee and Brawl, who would be significantly worse if you removed their exploitable set-ups without nerfing anything else. Meta Knight was so threatening that he forced you to play quite differently than in other MU's, and that's the mark of a top tier. A high tier character is one who can place high and win tourneys, but has a few bad MU's that prevent them from doing so consistently, often warranting a secondary to cover such MU's. Meta Knight currently fits that. Leo is still dominating and Tyrant is getting good results, but they both fall back onto their secondaries in those few match-ups where MK struggles. Also all of the characters you mentioned are top tiers, not high tiers, aside from maybe Ryu.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh, it sounds good when you only look at raw numbers but in practice, its not a good move at all when you consider other things with it.

Look at diddys dtilt for example. Frame 4 and only does 5.5% but it leads into grab+aerial at low %'s (5.5% + 5% + 9% = 19.5%) with a similar range and it kills at high % into usmash while being MUCH safer on block. Ryu's dsmash has awful KO potential.

Really, the only good thing about Ryus dsmash is its raw damage will win trades vs tilts which is about the only thing its good at.
As a KO move, its terrible and for a fast move, it does less damage than other sweeping attacks would be expected to through starting combos.

There's nothing in the game quite like Ryu's dsmash with its bizarre mix of speed and damage while having low knockback and large endlag. But its not a good trade overall. I know I would rather take a normal dsmash, than have some inferior version of his dtilt for a smash. Dtilt can lead into more damage, KO earlier and is safer.

It's not a KO move though.

And you know that. You are too intelligent to NOT know that.

 

[Asdioh]

Eh, it sounds good when you only look at raw numbers but in practice, its not a good move at all when you consider other things with it.

Look at diddys dtilt for example. Frame 4 and only does 5.5% but it leads into grab+aerial at low %'s (5.5% + 5% + 9% = 19.5%) with a similar range and it kills at high % into usmash while being MUCH safer on block. Ryu's dsmash has awful KO potential.

Really, the only good thing about Ryus dsmash is its raw damage will win trades vs tilts which is about the only thing its good at.
As a KO move, its terrible and for a fast move, it does less damage than other sweeping attacks would be expected to through starting combos.

There's nothing in the game quite like Ryu's dsmash with its bizarre mix of speed and damage while having low knockback and large endlag. But its not a good trade overall. I know I would rather take a normal dsmash, than have some inferior version of his dtilt for a smash. Dtilt can lead into more damage, KO earlier and is safer.

I meant a move-by-move basis, as in all his moves looked at as a whole. Like Fair... frame 6, disjointed, does a massive 15% and combos, often into itself, to deal an easy 28-29%. It sounds ridiculous, but in practice, Ryu isn't as oppressive as top/high tiers could be, because he's forced to.. actually play the game, I suppose?

 

[Megamang]

He doesn't have the silly air accel of other top characters, which means he has to commit. This is good design, since his commitments are super super powerful it would be lame if he could juke you out midair with nair then dair you, or carry you even more effectively with nairs.


But he kinda plays his own game. It just has counterplay. But, I don't think we have seen what Ryu is capable of, that character will only get scarier. Dsmash is a great move for footsies/poking/counterpoking.


I mean, lets compare it to the d-tilt of Diddy, mentioned earlier as being a better move. While this may be true in some situations, if they are both trying to space on the ground and trade dtilt with Ryu's dsmash, he gets the way better end of the trade. In general, Ryu can trade advantageously with almost everyone. And, while it doesn't kill early, Ryu isn't lacking kills. It knocks you into a disadvantage state, and can be the cause of your death pretty quickly in that situation.

No character likes being hit with that move, and it does as much as many character's strings. Its a damn good footsie move, and as someone said earlier, is a big reason that Ryu can handle low profile abusers.

 

[Browny]

I meant a move-by-move basis, as in all his moves looked at as a whole. Like Fair... frame 6, disjointed, does a massive 15% and combos, often into itself, to deal an easy 28-29%. It sounds ridiculous, but in practice, Ryu isn't as oppressive as top/high tiers could be, because he's forced to.. actually play the game, I suppose?

Luigi isnt too dissimilar with his overall moveset really, especially his aerials. They need that to compensate for their lack of speed. Ryu trades grab combos for raw damage and power.

Talking about this makes me miss brawl Wario's aerials.

I know his dsmash isnt a kill move. It's just some really weird move that seems great on the surface but then you realise it doesnt really do what an ideal tilt or smash attack would do. Kind of like characters that only have throws that do high %, but neither combo or KO. Little Mac's throws I guess?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would agree if it wasn't a 5 frame disjoint that does 16%. That to me screams out "Use as a punish when not in close range."

It has a specific niche use outside the normal spectrum of moves that would usually serve a similar purpose.

 

[HeavyLobster]

One flaw I sometimes see with MU analysis is the assumption that just because a move is safe on shield there's never any repercussions for hitting a shield with it, and that the move's frame advantage can be viewed in a vacuum. It's also important to take into consideration what the character can do afterward. For example, both Link and Sheik have Fairs that are safe on shield. However, Sheik also has a frame 2 jab with mixups that make it difficult to punish when used intelligently, while Link's jab is frame 7. This one fact greatly affects how you can respond out of shield to both characters. With Sheik you have to respect that she can stuff any attack you might try with her jab, while Link is often forced to roll/spotdodge to avoid punishment, and Link's options out of hitting shield are significantly more restricted. Thus it becomes easier to read and punish Link's next action while Sheik has the option to either keep up the pressure or retreat, so while obviously shield safety is important, it needs to be understood in the larger context of interactions.

 

[Megamang]

Which is why Greninja's fair and nair being relatively safe on shield is great, because he has a jab where both jab 1 and 2 have really good FAF. It adds yomi when you hit their shield, whereas, as you said, link basically just has to dodge away to avoid OOS. And fair is pretty ranged, and the sourspot of nair has relatively good range for something that confirms into usmash for kills, for quite a range.

And its why Ryu having a little safety is pretty freaking scary, because once he starts dtilting your shield, he basically holds all the cards. Even Abadango gets shieldbroke by utilt -> CB, and you don't exactly want to be dodging away from Ryu anyways.

This is why bairs are usually 'safer' on shield than fairs, because they limit your shield pressure options significantly.

Shield push is also pretty important. I could see a meta evolving where multi hit shield pressure moves means your enemy will close the gap with shield DI, since apparently moves have more shield pushback in smash 4 than even melee (according to m2k's stream)

 

[Das Koopa]

this weekend's results compiled together

Midwest Mayhem 2

Spoiler

1st: Zinoto
2nd: Tyroy
3rd: Abadango
4th: VoiD
5th: JJRockets
5th: DarkShad
7th: iStudying
7th: NiTe
9th: Big Mak
9th: Anonymous Moniker
9th: JTWild
9th: Ksev
13th: Nero
13th: Demitus
13th: Rich Brown
13th: BoScotty

EGLX

Spoiler

1st: Nairo
2nd: Ally
3rd: Mew2King
4th: SuperGirlKels ,
5th: Holy Nightmare
5th: IceNinja
7th: San
7th: Poke
9th: Chrim Foish
9th: PikaPika
9th: Logic
9th: KID Goggles ,
13th: Zhao_Guang
13th: Jibe
13th: Phillycheeze
13th: Venom

KSB 2016

Spoiler

1st: Kamemushi
2nd: Komorikiri
3rd: KEN
4th: Ginko
5th: You3
5th: Nasubi
7th: SHIG | 9B
7th: Earth
9th: Ranai
9th: Atelier
9th: Shogun
9th: Masashi
13th: Souther
13th: ikep
13th: Yamanyon
13th: Ri-ma

Neokan Party

Spoiler

1st: Gluttony ,
2nd: Anragon
3rd: Griffith , ,
4th: Vanaheim
5th: Purner
5th: Phogos
7th: Scarhi
7th: Biglink ,
9th: Lucretio
9th: Yoyod
9th: Deimos ,
9th: ZHT
13th: Dakou
13th: Nin' ,
13th: Sahone
13th: Anoer

 

[warionumbah2]

So... Tyrant is playing more with Diddy nowadays ?

To answer your question that was ignored.

Yes he is. Leo also uses Cloud,Bayonetta and Marth. Ito uses Fox and Diddy. I personally think Tyrant should make the full switch to Diddy but character loyalty's a *****. Its mandatory to use a top tier to cover ALOT of his bad MUs since the character doesn't cut it anymore. Characters are rising while MK is dropping due to his poor results(more to do with the lack of players than MK not being that good) and bad MUs increasing.

Being able to BS wins on Floaty/Light characters is cool and all but how many of those are common? Only relevant ones off the top of my head are Mewtwo and Rosalina. But why use MK to CP Rosalina when Cloud Strife the stronger,easier character exists who's also better in doubles and has the MU spread MK wishes he had.

Leo also got 2nd at Street Bros 2 losing to Javi, didn't catch the stream but he used Sheik and Ness most likely. Also Wonf last week got a bracket reset on Leos MK using Sonic, he finally remembered he had a Sonic who bodies MK now. He lost however since he wasted 4 games on Bayonetta then died to Uair combo's due to terrible DI and absolutely no SDI. Leo isn't dominating anymore.

Edit: Javi used sorry guys and gals.

 

[outfoxd]

Two top 5 Duck Hunts. MU inexperience, weak turnouts or something to the character?

I'm not being cute, i didn't watch the matches and I'm curious.

 

[bc1910]

Duck Hunt has always been good at everything except killing and recovering. Like, since release, that's been the case. His dominant neutral and excellent damage racking capabilities made people think he was a top character at first. Nothing about those two things have changed.

I know the best Duck Hunt players are making his recovery work, either by covering it with Can or simply avoiding recovering low. It can be quite tricky to edgeguard a high recovery from this character if the Can is in the way.

Maybe the best Duck Hunt players are perfecting their kill setups and traps and traps as well? That's really the only thing the character needs.

 

[Das Koopa]

current top 15 in score tracking

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 202.5
Diddy Kong: 153
Cloud: 146
Sheik: 145.5
Zero Suit Samus: 105.5
Sonic: 101.5
Fox: 101
Mario: 94.5
Rosalina & Luma: 82.5
R.O.B: 73.5
Ness: 71
Toon Link: 66.5
Mewtwo: 63.5
Captain Falcon: 59.5
Mega Man: 56

also Doc, Dark Pit, Swordfighter, and Gunner are the only characters yet to score on my list thing

 

[ARISTOS]

To answer your question that was ignored.

Yes he is. Leo also uses Cloud,Bayonetta and Marth. Ito uses Fox and Diddy. I personally think Tyrant should make the full switch to Diddy but character loyalty's a *****. Its mandatory to use a top tier to cover ALOT of his bad MUs since the character doesn't cut it anymore. Characters are rising while MK is dropping due to his poor results(more to do with the lack of players than MK not being that good) and bad MUs increasing.

Being able to BS wins on Floaty/Light characters is cool and all but how many of those are common? Only relevant ones off the top of my head are Mewtwo and Rosalina. But why use MK to CP Rosalina when Cloud Strife the stronger,easier character exists who's also better in doubles and has the MU spread MK wishes he had.

Leo also got 2nd at Street Bros 2 losing to Javi, didn't catch the stream but he used Sheik and Ness most likely. Also Wonf last week got a bracket reset on Leos MK using Sonic, he finally remembered he had a Sonic who bodies MK now. He lost however since he wasted 4 games on Bayonetta then died to Uair combo's due to terrible DI and absolutely no SDI. Leo isn't dominating anymore.

So what do we consider now? Was he closer in design to where a singularly powerful trait led to him getting higher placings than probably otherwise?

I think MK struggles a lot more once people start playing the MU and properly DI dash attack/d-throw- the difference before was that he could get by on the execution of an incredible punish.

But I don't know too much about the character so many more informed Bat-players know what's up

 

[BunbUn129]

So what do we consider now? Was he closer in design to where a singularly powerful trait led to him getting higher placings than probably otherwise?

I think MK struggles a lot more once people start playing the MU and properly DI dash attack/d-throw- the difference before was that he could get by on the execution of an incredible punish.

But I don't know too much about the character so many more informed Bat-players know what's up

Yes, he's closer to Luigi. His tools were overall good, but then there was one highly problematic move that was so easily abusable, like Luigi's down throw. MK will really fall hard once people SDI the uairs; I've seen MK's connect them on Ryu, Marth, and Bayonetta among others who should've been able to escape with ease.

 

[Megamang]

DunnoBro I believe has said that he thinks DHD kills better than a character like that should. Delayed frisbee shot -> uair starts killing really really early for a zoner. And since he is a zoner, he can often abuse rage, and fishing for frisbee hits isn't exactly unsafe.

---

MK might still have a place in the meta as long as gimpable characters continue to rise.

 

[BunbUn129]

DunnoBro I believe has said that he thinks DHD kills better than a character like that should. Delayed frisbee shot -> uair starts killing really really early for a zoner. And since he is a zoner, he can often abuse rage, and fishing for frisbee hits isn't exactly unsafe.

---

MK might still have a place in the meta as long as gimpable characters continue to rise.

But then you have Bayonetta and Cloud, who have very good edge-guard kits while being amazing in other areas.

Most of the top characters have pretty good recoveries and against someone who isn't getting easily predictable with it, MK can't edge-guard consistently.

 

[Ninety]

Das Koopa Bayonetta scores highest on your ranking, but we haven't seen many first place finishes for her. What gives? Just a lot of top 9 finishes?

 

[DunnoBro]

Duck hunt kills fine, it's just the risk involved with him trying to kill is absurd. Laggy smashes that don't always work, laggy projectile that also doesn't always work and fails if the opponent just hits a button.

Dair, frisbee, gunmen, and ledge dthrow (Due to decreased knockback. He gets these easily with ledge can + his amazing grab) all true combo into kills or 50/50 consistently.

The issue is all these lose to attacks, he has no way to kill a button hitter safely + even the smallest punish of getting grabbed + thrown offstage probably means death. Any character landing one of their horizontal dsmashes (sonic, fox, mario) ensure dhd can't use the can to cover himself so he should die.

 

[Luco]

Bayonetta keeps coming close, she gets an unbelievable amount of top 8's without making 1st very often.

 

[Das Koopa]

Das Koopa Bayonetta scores highest on your ranking, but we haven't seen many first place finishes for her. What gives? Just a lot of top 9 finishes?

A lot of top 8 finishes on a very consistent basis with many of these being more in the range of the top 4

 

[Megamang]

Why are people so slow to learn about Bayonetta? I see them coast to top 8 on the back of no one even trying to DI. Then someone knows the MU and destroys her.

I mean, I guess Witch Time can make your bracket life easier, since you just press a button if you are getting beat up and you can win from there... also, she generally has the same strategy in each MU so her knowledge can be comparatively lacking while she demands large amounts of respect.

But these things aren't good enough for her to win consistently? Is this due to the 'soft ban' status of everyone hating her?

 

[HoSmash4]

Why are people so slow to learn about Bayonetta? I see them coast to top 8 on the back of no one even trying to DI. Then someone knows the MU and destroys her.

I mean, I guess Witch Time can make your bracket life easier, since you just press a button if you are getting beat up and you can win from there... also, she generally has the same strategy in each MU so her knowledge can be comparatively lacking while she demands large amounts of respect.

But these things aren't good enough for her to win consistently? Is this due to the 'soft ban' status of everyone hating her?

Nah Bayonetta is still a very strong character even without her ladder kill confirms, bayos can still opt for safety but with guaranteed damage and stage control. Bayo has to follow di. Bayo is more scary in my opinion if she leaves no opening with landing lag by not trying to overextend.

 

[LancerStaff]

Really? Because he got, like, two moves changed since release (Arrows and Electroshock Arm). He might have been more irrelevant, but he wasn't much worse.

Nairo did use Pit too if his arrows were especially good in the matchup, and the arrow frame data buff was a bit more important for him. Though, Dark Pit's arrows were pretty sad before the damage buff. Still kinda are...

The more notable thing is that two of the Pits' really bad matchups got loads better last patch, and they didn't have that many to begin with.

 

[Jehtt]

current top 15 in score tracking

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 202.5
Diddy Kong: 153
Cloud: 146
Sheik: 145.5
Zero Suit Samus: 105.5
Sonic: 101.5
Fox: 101
Mario: 94.5
Rosalina & Luma: 82.5
R.O.B: 73.5
Ness: 71
Toon Link: 66.5
Mewtwo: 63.5
Captain Falcon: 59.5
Mega Man: 56

also Doc, Dark Pit, Swordfighter, and Gunner are the only characters yet to score on my list thing

From when does this data start? It doesn't look like all time results.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Diddy's results are crazy good. He got 3rd during the last "season" of Koopa's ranking and now he's second even though both times Zero didn't get to make any contributions. Bayonetta outdid him both times but she does not actually win tournaments right now despite having an insane playerbase. Sheik also had better results last month because Mr r and Void attended just about every major in the USA during that time. I don't think there's a character that has as many different players winning tournaments right now.

Most viable character in the game any one?

 

[Zelder]

I would be extremely okay with Diddy being the best/most viable character in the game. I think Sakurai and co have done a very good job of balancing this game.

 

[Djent]

I think /// are all more-or-less comparably viable and constitute the "top tier." Bayo gets better weighted results than the other three but then doesn't win much, so it's hard for me to believe she's actually a cut above the rest. I don't know what order they should be ranked in, but that's to be expected with such a condensed power distribution.

 

[Megamang]

Worth mentioning is that Diddy is one of, if not the worst, of the MUs of the other characters. He does well vs pretty much everyone. I mean, banana is crazy good, and his kit is solid even without it. His neutral is oppressive and powerful.

Dtilt is frikkin... its Diddy's dtilt. One of the best moves in the game, on block and hit. Only thing keeping him in check is the relative weakness of his usmash, and the fact that pretty much everyone can do cool stuff with bananas if they take his + banana pull being highly punishable.

Megaman also appears to beat, or at least do really well compared to most of the cast, vs Bayonetta, Diddy, and Cloud. Is this what being an anti-meta character means? Zoners in general have been getting better and better results, and Megaman tends to also beat them pretty well. Pellets are just straightforward zoning, and if your projectile dies to pellets you are gonna have a hard time having it do anything at all. This is why Lucario is annoying, since before kill percentages his AS goes through all Megaman's projectiles. Still, he can edgeguard Lucario pretty damn well. Another trait that is becoming more and more important!

Speaking of which, does Lucina do well vs Bayonetta due to fair consistently edgeguarding?

 

[Rizen]

One flaw I sometimes see with MU analysis is the assumption that just because a move is safe on shield there's never any repercussions for hitting a shield with it, and that the move's frame advantage can be viewed in a vacuum. It's also important to take into consideration what the character can do afterward. For example, both Link and Sheik have Fairs that are safe on shield. However, Sheik also has a frame 2 jab with mixups that make it difficult to punish when used intelligently, while Link's jab is frame 7. This one fact greatly affects how you can respond out of shield to both characters. With Sheik you have to respect that she can stuff any attack you might try with her jab, while Link is often forced to roll/spotdodge to avoid punishment, and Link's options out of hitting shield are significantly more restricted. Thus it becomes easier to read and punish Link's next action while Sheik has the option to either keep up the pressure or retreat, so while obviously shield safety is important, it needs to be understood in the larger context of interactions.

I generally agree with you but want to point out for this example Link's Fair hits twice for 11 and 13%, which is a lot of shield stun. He can safely jab if Fair is spaced right.

The shield stun change probably helped Link more than any of his direct buffs.

 

[Das Koopa]

From when does this data start? It doesn't look like all time results.

March 15th. I'm going to release the next big compilation (with charts/graphs/etc) at the end of May.

 

[juddy96]

this weekend's results compiled together

Midwest Mayhem 2

Spoiler

1st: Zinoto
2nd: Tyroy
3rd: Abadango
4th: VoiD
5th: JJRockets
5th: DarkShad
7th: iStudying
7th: NiTe
9th: Big Mak
9th: Anonymous Moniker
9th: JTWild
9th: Ksev
13th: Nero
13th: Demitus
13th: Rich Brown
13th: BoScotty

EGLX

Spoiler

1st: Nairo
2nd: Ally
3rd: Mew2King
4th: SuperGirlKels ,
5th: Holy Nightmare
5th: IceNinja
7th: San
7th: Poke
9th: Chrim Foish
9th: PikaPika
9th: Logic
9th: KID Goggles ,
13th: Zhao_Guang
13th: Jibe
13th: Phillycheeze
13th: Venom

KSB 2016

Spoiler

1st: Kamemushi
2nd: Komorikiri
3rd: KEN
4th: Ginko
5th: You3
5th: Nasubi
7th: SHIG | 9B
7th: Earth
9th: Ranai
9th: Atelier
9th: Shogun
9th: Masashi
13th: Souther
13th: ikep
13th: Yamanyon
13th: Ri-ma

Neokan Party

Spoiler

1st: Gluttony ,
2nd: Anragon
3rd: Griffith , ,
4th: Vanaheim
5th: Purner
5th: Phogos
7th: Scarhi
7th: Biglink ,
9th: Lucretio
9th: Yoyod
9th: Deimos ,
9th: ZHT
13th: Dakou
13th: Nin' ,
13th: Sahone
13th: Anoer

For your top 16 results for KSB, 8 players were floated through pools based on results from previous tournaments, ikep and Yamanyon ended up going 0-2 but finished 13th. The data would be skewed in this case.

 

[bc1910]

current top 15 in score tracking

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 202.5
Diddy Kong: 153
Cloud: 146
Sheik: 145.5
Zero Suit Samus: 105.5
Sonic: 101.5
Fox: 101
Mario: 94.5
Rosalina & Luma: 82.5
R.O.B: 73.5
Ness: 71
Toon Link: 66.5
Mewtwo: 63.5
Captain Falcon: 59.5
Mega Man: 56

also Doc, Dark Pit, Swordfighter, and Gunner are the only characters yet to score on my list thing

Funny because the top 9 on that weighting also matches my personal top 9, which also matches the current top 9 on the SWF voted tier list.

are a cut above the other characters right now.

Ladies and gentleman, your S4 top tiers.

It's worth noting that among this group the top 4 are quite clear (Bayo, Diddy, Cloud, Sheik) but the order is up for debate. Same goes for 5th-9th. People love to talk about the top 5, but who's actually 5th? And what about top 10? There are 9 characters up there, who gets 10th is up for debate, and I'd say whoever gets it is weaker than the rest of the tier.

So I don't think this matters, but for the sake of debate, I think Ryu takes 10th in theory. Ness takes 10th in practice, and an honorable mention goes to the rising threat of Mewtwo.

FWIW, my high tiers:

 

[Y2Kay]

I would be extremely okay with Diddy being the best/most viable character in the game. I think Sakurai and co have done a very good job of balancing this game.

If you said this a year ago you'd be insane lol.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So what exactly has done so far to be consistently listed as well-established top 3 material with little to no contradiction?

 

[BunbUn129]

So what exactly has done so far to be consistently listed as well-established top 3 material with little to no contradiction?

Best results across all levels of play, and the pocket Cloud has basically replaced the pocket Mario. And the Sheik nerfs have been good for him. We've been pretty bad at edge-guarding in this game for a while and that's another factor.

His only weaknesses, his grab game and recovery, aren't easily exploitable. Because he gets a lot more off positional advantage than most characters and has recovery mix-ups, these issues are more of minor inconveniences for him than glaring flaws--not dissimilar to 1.1.4 Sheik's "poor" KOing ability.

 

[Zelder]

If you said this a year ago you'd be insane lol.

I remember very early on in Smash 4's life cycle when people were grousing about how patches would initially kill the game - which is a common discussion amongst new games, and doubly to be expected in the Smash community which has never had a gameplay patch. I want to go back in time and show them the just how good Smash 4 is going to get.


Also God, could you imagine if this game had never gone beyond Diddy's upair?

 

[Man Li Gi]

I believe this was posted earlier, but here ya go

https://youtu.be/2ZFWEAZsm6k

 

[BunbUn129]

I remember very early on in Smash 4's life cycle when people were grousing about how patches would initially kill the game - which is a common discussion amongst new games, and doubly to be expected in the Smash community which has never had a gameplay patch. I want to go back in time and show them the just how good Smash 4 is going to get.


Also God, could you imagine if this game had never gone beyond Diddy's upair?

I wanna see what the game would've been like if Cloud and Bayo were included in the initial release to add to the unpatched nonsense that was there.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wanna see what the game would've been like if Cloud and Bayo were included in the initial release to add to the unpatched nonsense that was there.

I think everyone would have been too busy flipping their **** over CLOUD IN SMASH SWEET JESUS to really concern themselves with the high level ramifications of Limit and Fly Me to the Moon for quite a while.

Also "who the hell is Corrin" if we're assuming all the DLC is there.