Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

Why do people hesitate to use the word "carried" or whatever?

When a person was 9th or 4th or 5th or whatever on their PR and jumped to 1st when they picked up Bayo, and started taking names such as Abadango and iStudying that they normally wouldn't have, and placed 2nd in a pretty stacked tournament, they're definitely carried by Bayonetta.

When a player goes from barely getting top 8 at xanadus most of the time to being a legitimate national threat that easily makes it to top 32/top 16 at extremely stacked tournaments, then they're definitely carried by Bayo.

When a literal random who's biggest achievement was randomly upsetting Anti with Peach picks up Bayo and also becomes a legitimate threat at very stacked nationals and gets top 16/32 then they're carried by bayo.

It's pretty much a fact at this point, why people wouldn't accept it is beyond me.

Sure, play to win, blame the game, don't blame the players, they were already good players pre-bayo (altho i extremely doubt that LMAO) etc. I'm not saying don't do any of that, I'm just saying if a player is carried by bayo then they're carried, no other way around it.

Tyroy pretty much beat iStudying legit in their set once he figured out the ladder didn't work. Abadango was playing needlessly aggressive in their set and kept throwing out moves and, shocker, got punished for it. Watch the set with Zinoto - he deconstructs Tyroy by playing defensively and patiently and only throws out moves when he needs too, a contrast to JJROCKETS throwing out smashes and getting punished for it hard.

Yeah, Bayonetta's stupid, we know, her punishes are overpowered, but she's not invincible and it's easy to see when top players throw themselves into situations where they get punished.

 

[Blobface]

If Ganon really did get the same reward as his opponent in every matchup, there's no way he could be getting the above average results he's been getting in April. There are a lot of possible explanations for these results: Matchup inexperience, mid-level mistakes, and Ganon generally only being mained by skilled players among the most prominent. But to be quite honest, these explanations have persisted through months-worth of "surprising" Ganon results. At some point, "Ganon isn't actually that bad" is a much simpler explanation.

On that topic, I am sick to death of "matchup inexperience", applied to any character, not just Ganon. It's a perfectly fine idea on paper, we've got 50+ characters after all, but the way it is frequently invoked is bogus. Matchup inexperience is not something you can simply assume because a result is out of line with traditional views of that character/matchup, it's something you need to prove. Show how X did Y incorrectly, or how this mistake shows a lack of knowledge. Considering that matchup inexperience is far more contrived than simply "the theory of this matchup was wrong", burden of proof should always be on whoever invokes it.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Tyroy pretty much beat iStudying legit in their set once he figured out the ladder didn't work. Abadango was playing needlessly aggressive in their set and kept throwing out moves and, shocker, got punished for it. Watch the set with Zinoto - he deconstructs Tyroy by playing defensively and patiently and only throws out moves when he needs too, a contrast to JJROCKETS throwing out smashes and getting punished for it hard.

Yeah, Bayonetta's stupid, we know, her punishes are overpowered, but she's not invincible and it's easy to see when top players throw themselves into situations where they get punished.

way to strawman and take only a small part of what i said, good job

 

[ArikadoSD]

Being carried by a character implies the player lacks skill, and with Bayonetta and Cloud, implies they're nearly unbeatable or whatever even though the player could of gotten similarly better results with another high or top character.

How does being carried imply any of that?

You just assumed that yourself.

 

[Blobface]

How does being carried imply any of that?

You just assumed that yourself.

Carried implies that the player lacks skill outside of using the character in question, or that their results are more from their character than their skill. It's very derogatory and offers absolutely nothing to compensate.

 

[juddy96]

Neokan Party results

1) Glutonny
2) Anragon
3) EVK | Griffith
4) Vanaheim
5) Purner
5) Phogos
7) Scarhi
7) Biglink

http://challonge.com/NeokanPartyBrackets

 

[Illuminose]

ok, so since February Kamemushi's placings have been:

- 1st/116 at KSB 2016 (Komorikiri, 9B, Ranai, KEN, Earth, and others present)
- 1st/128 at Kurobura 1 (Nietono and Umeki present)
- 4th/192 at Umebura 22 (much of East Japan's top talent and 9B present)
- 3rd/96 at TUS Tournament 4 (Abadango, Nyanko, Motsunabe, KEN, and others present)
- 7th/230 at Sumabato 8 (all of West Japan's top talent present other than Ranai)
- 7th/180 at Umebura 21 (much of East Japan's top talent present)
- 7th/80 at SHIG Tournament (many top players present)

including victories over Komorikiri, 9B, Shu, Choco, Nyanko, KEN, Aki, Atelier, Umeki, Songun, Nasubi, taranito, Eim, Brood, and other solid Japanese players. He's also demonstrated mastery of his character with his usage of lemons and vertical spacing as well as some of the stuff we'd only think could be done in training mode (footstool lemon resets etc). I think it's safe to call him the best Mega Man at this point. His resume is actually just more impressive than Scatt's at this point.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Regarding Ganon, I feel most players are ranking his MU performance very badly based on top level play and assuming that most top level players will either camp him or do everything perfectly against him. However, in lower levels of play where these two things are less common, Ganon's performance in virtually every MU is exponentially more successful. If the opponent misspaces, throws out moves in the wrong place, messes up at the ledge, misses a tech or punish, etc. Ganon can capitalize on these mistakes far more than a majority of the cast with long reaching punishes that either deal ludicrous amounts of damage, or can straight up kill the opponent. This, I feel, is a large reason as to why his results in april were much better than expected.

 

[Das Koopa]

How does being carried imply any of that?

You just assumed that yourself.

you literally said yourself you doubted that these players were good pre-Bayo

"Carried" is very clearly an insult. Don't backpedal, now.

 

[juddy96]

ok, so since February Kamemushi's placings have been:

- 1st/116 at KSB 2016 (Komorikiri, 9B, Ranai, KEN, Earth, and others present)
- 1st/128 at Kurobura 1 (Nietono and Umeki present)
- 4th/192 at Umebura 22 (much of East Japan's top talent and 9B present)
- 3rd/96 at TUS Tournament 4 (Abadango, Nyanko, Motsunabe, KEN, and others present)
- 7th/230 at Sumabato 8 (all of West Japan's top talent present other than Ranai)
- 7th/180 at Umebura 21 (much of East Japan's top talent present)
- 7th/80 at SHIG Tournament (many top players present)

including victories over Komorikiri, 9B, Shu, Choco, Nyanko, KEN, Aki, Atelier, Umeki, Songun, Nasubi, taranito, Eim, Brood, and other solid Japanese players. He's also demonstrated mastery of his character with his usage of lemons and vertical spacing as well as some of the stuff we'd only think could be done in training mode (footstool lemon resets etc). I think it's safe to call him the best Mega Man at this point. His resume is actually just more impressive than Scatt's at this point.

A few of those wins (at least over Choco and Aki) were with Cloud. I'm not sure how many others. But Kamemushi is still super impressive, and at this point, the best Mega Man.

 

[TheGlove]

How does being carried imply any of that?

You just assumed that yourself.

You literally said "Sure, play to win, blame the game, don't blame the players, they were already good players pre-bayo (altho i extremely doubt that LMAO)"

Tyroy was apparently considered to be best in Chicago only being ranked lower due to being unable to participate in tournies due to school. Hell Ally just defended his placement on twitter and Ally hates Bayo

I believe that Smash 4 was Saj's first smash game( this was wrong apparently he played brawl), and he plays it as a hobby, and he first played peach, a character that is maybe low high tier but more likely just mid tier assuming you knew how to do a bunch of unintuitive tech. Even with that he frequently placed well and took sets off of Ryo in a MU that is likely not in peaches favor ( She hates most disjoint characters)

PinkFresh got super good results in Brawl playing a character with crippling weaknesses, placed well in a couple nationals in PM that I know of, and placed well at Xanadu for a long time while not owning the game or a wii u thriving off pure fundamentals. Hell he took the last xanadu going all lucas just for the fun of it.

Being carried is like the Puff vs Falco crew battle at pound where Hbox took like nine stocks to clutch out the win. It implies that nobody elses effort mattered because Hbox essentially did everything. It implies that the character's "Skill" is the one getting the wins not the player piloting it. This is pretty widely held definition.

Some good players dont travel because if you dont place in the money you've potentially wasted a ton of money, and may not come to local tournaments that often due to having a life outside smash. Results aren't everything regardless of how annoying that is to amateur analysts like us.

ok, so since February Kamemushi's placings have been:

- 1st/116 at KSB 2016 (Komorikiri, 9B, Ranai, KEN, Earth, and others present)
- 1st/128 at Kurobura 1 (Nietono and Umeki present)
- 4th/192 at Umebura 22 (much of East Japan's top talent and 9B present)
- 3rd/96 at TUS Tournament 4 (Abadango, Nyanko, Motsunabe, KEN, and others present)
- 7th/230 at Sumabato 8 (all of West Japan's top talent present other than Ranai)
- 7th/180 at Umebura 21 (much of East Japan's top talent present)
- 7th/80 at SHIG Tournament (many top players present)

including victories over Komorikiri, 9B, Shu, Choco, Nyanko, KEN, Aki, Atelier, Umeki, Songun, Nasubi, taranito, Eim, Brood, and other solid Japanese players. He's also demonstrated mastery of his character with his usage of lemons and vertical spacing as well as some of the stuff we'd only think could be done in training mode (footstool lemon resets etc). I think it's safe to call him the best Mega Man at this point. His resume is actually just more impressive than Scatt's at this point.

Would somewhat disagree, Scatt has only just started traveling, and despite his results not being as high based on direct placement comparison, we would have to compare how good the players Scatt plays here directly to Japanese players which is a pretty fruitless endeavor. The too biggest wins are Komo, choco, and 9B. Zoners may do well against Bayo and 9B struggled against Megaman as Ryu as well, and his record in Smash 4 is kind of shaky.

Komo played sonic, a bad matchup for sonic, and cloud, a match up that Scatt proved was doable by beating M2K.

Didnt see the Choco match.

Like dont get me wrong Kamemushi is either the best or second best by a close margin, and it literally doesnt matter who is the best, I just hate when people put so much stock in being the best whatever and use placements that dont always show true player skill (for example what If I got 33rd at a national but I only lost to Nairo and Zero who go on to take first and second and I actually played the matches pretty well, in theory I could probably have placed at least a bit higher)

 

[Megamang]

We're still fighting about Bayonetta?

Its amusing how slowly that people are learning about her. Watching bayonetta start a damage racking combo and commentators and spectators alike are cheering like its gonna kill. Meh.

Her punishes aren't that amazing if you can SDI, and she doesn't oppress you in disadvantage as much as other top tiers. I'd wager Cloud probably gets more damage off of a landed uair than she does of an ABK.

The really annoying thing about her is how good her hitboxes are though. So many times, she just collides with you using a special and gets the conversion without so much as a trade. This part is pretty annoying. Not gonna weigh in on the carried debate, but I will say that she often has one 'correct' option that has extremely difficult if not outright impossible-at-the-time counterplay. Every time she jabs, im like 'Witch Twist and dtilt would have hit, what are you doing?'


---


Yea, Megaman does well vs Bayonetta/Cloud/Sonic/Diddy... Thats a huge ****in deal! The question is, who does he lose to? Scatt's twitter said he has 2 MUs, due to his amazing neutral, and the more I mess with Megaman the more I agree. Being forced to the ledge doesn't even kill Megaman unless you have an amazing spike and you can land it, on his recovery that doesn't have freefall.

 

[Das Koopa]

Neokan Party results

1) Glutonny
2) Anragon
3) EVK | Griffith
4) Vanaheim
5) Purner
5) Phogos
7) Scarhi
7) Biglink

http://challonge.com/NeokanPartyBrackets

currently trying to decipher the top 16

Does Anoer still use Falcon and who does Sahone use?

 

[Asdioh]

Give an example. Asdioh and I spar often. He had this really horrible habit of attacking when he was above me. A clear state of disadvantage. A simple Shoryu from Ryu will beat an offensive option kirby tries. The only option Kirby has that could allow a conversion in that situation is dair, but its not safe at all and is a heavy commitment.

He eventually noticed this terrible habit and we spoke on it. He recognized that it just wasnt worth it to "disrespect" Ryu in that situation and risk death. He started to respect my advantage state and took more evasive action in those situations.

His win rate went up instantly in our matches, mostly because I was no longer getting easy kills when I had put him at an obvious disadvantage.

Yeah, I learned to respect Shoryuken, it was a very important (and obvious) lesson. In turn, Ryu learns to respect Kirby's... crouch. Short crouch, combined with a pretty good Dtilt, is actually a stupidly polarizing option in some matchups. The only reason Ryu stands a chance against Kirby is because of his great Dtilts and Dsmash. And when I learned the hitbox on Dsmash was a bit deceptive, I learned another layer of respect!

Bam, frame 5, 15-16 damage! Ryu's frame data/damage output on a move-by-move basis seems overtuned, but they're strangely not, in practice.

 

[ARISTOS]

Why do people hesitate to use the word "carried" or whatever?

When a person was 9th or 4th or 5th or whatever on their PR and jumped to 1st when they picked up Bayo, and started taking names such as Abadango and iStudying that they normally wouldn't have, and placed 2nd in a pretty stacked tournament, they're definitely carried by Bayonetta.

When a player goes from barely getting top 8 at xanadus most of the time to being a legitimate national threat that easily makes it to top 32/top 16 at extremely stacked tournaments, then they're definitely carried by Bayo.

When a literal random who's biggest achievement was randomly upsetting Anti with Peach picks up Bayo and also becomes a legitimate threat at very stacked nationals and gets top 16/32 then they're carried by bayo.

It's pretty much a fact at this point, why people wouldn't accept it is beyond me.

Sure, play to win, blame the game, don't blame the players, they were already good players pre-bayo (altho i extremely doubt that LMAO) etc. I'm not saying don't do any of that, I'm just saying if a player is carried by bayo then they're carried, no other way around it.

Players carry characters, and characters carry players. It's a two-way process.

Pink Fresh and Saj played with mid-tiers beforehand, it is no matter that they would improve once they played better characters.

Everyone wants to be "Pick a better character!" then once people do they start complaining lol.

's results have been incredibly good recently. To be fair though, the results are almost always very good when his top mains come out to play, and disappear when they don't.

 

[Peppermint1201]

footage of DarkShad vs Abadango: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJk1Ec9T_o4

 

[BTVolta]

I believe that Smash 4 was Saj's first smash game

Saj was a brawl peach as well. Florida had quite a few Peaches who didn't like her transition or smash 4. Kyon(basically quit after brawl), Daisy(plays Bayo and Rosa more now) and Ricky(now Paradise and plays Mewtwo more).

 

[Shady Shaymin]

It seems that theory talk in this thread lacks an essential part of analysis that, in the field of sciences, is referred to as "operational definitions".

If I don't want someone to misinterpret your use of the term "carried", "high tier", "meta", etc, then it might be a good idea to actually assess what your use of these words means rather than just throwing out buzzwords.

 

[Das Koopa]

Mega Man is 14th in results atm not including Kamemushi's win, which should set him at 13th (just behind R.O.B I think?)

 

[Nu~]

I'm not all too surprised that mega man has been exploding lately. Now that his gatekeeper has been nerfed, you run into a lot less problems in bracket. Also, the current meta is kind to him what with all the Diddys, clouds, and Bayonettas running around.

I still question whether he is high tier material or not. I'm skeptical because while he has an oppressive neutral and contains loads of tools for every situation, he still lacks a consistently fearsome advantage state.

When played "optimally" his neutral kinda leads to more neutral and his damage output is saddening.
I'm wondering if a balance between the offensive/defensive is needed for the future of his meta. More metal blade setups and creative combo strings would help.

Lemons are incredible for sure, but ScAtt can take a page out of Styles' book for example, and vice versa.


I'm currently trying to do the same thing with my mega man gameplay.

 

[TheGlove]

Saj was a brawl peach as well. Florida had quite a few Peaches who didn't like her transition or smash 4. Kyon(basically quit after brawl), Daisy(plays Bayo and Rosa more now) and Ricky(now Paradise and plays Mewtwo more).

OK thank you for the correction, I shall Edit

It seems that theory talk in this thread lacks an essential part of analysis that, in the field of sciences, is referred to as "operational definitions".

If I don't want someone to misinterpret your use of the term "carried", "high tier", "meta", etc, then it might be a good idea to actually assess what your use of these words means rather than just throwing out buzzwords.

This so much, Like half of the arguments about lower tiered characters are a result of the stigma of low tiers being dysfunctional garbage in previous smash games and people using words like garbage characters to describe character who at least have functional game plans in smash 4. I feel like this is part of the whole everyone is at least mid tier stigma is because almost everyone is at least functional in Smash 4 which was basically mid tier in other games, functional characters who got severely outshined by the top tier overlords or janked with unfortunate mechanics, grab release stuff on pk kids for example.

Its probably to much to expect a internet thread of random players from around the world to decide on definitions of stuff but it would be so nice.

 

[Emblem Lord]

footage of DarkShad vs Abadango: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJk1Ec9T_o4

More proof that this is the most super special awesome match in the game.

 

[TheGlove]

Smash 4 Eglx stream https://www.twitch.tv/clashgg Doubles right now. Notable players still in Singles Ally, M2K SuperGirlKels, Venom, Nairo, Holy, Venom, KidGoggles, maybe some others

 

[Das Koopa]

Ally and M2K are completely destroying Foish and Blacktwins lol

 

[Luco]

Some people DO switch off their lower-tiered main or else switch characters and suddenly start dominating weaker match-ups. Who was it that switched between Sonic and M2 and suddenly started doing like a million times better? Aba just didn't see the kind of success he does now until he switched to MK, and then again obviously to M2.


... Actually screw it guys it's all Mewtwo. Who cares about Bayo, it's Mewtwo that's carrying the good players. Can we ban him yet?

*cough* On a serious note, I'm just trying to say it's a thing that happens. People switch to Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Cloud, whoever and start getting 'carried'. Bayo is just another option to choose from.

Also it makes me elated to know Asdioh and EL spar with each other. And in regards to disadvantage, it's something I'm trying to talk to my brother about. He often goes for the play that might reverse his disadvantage - Dair or downB as Bowser for instance, and I'm trying to teach him that resetting to neutral is the easiest way not to get punished on a majority of characters.

 

[Illuminose]

The reason that Bayonetta is brought up more is that we're seeing larger result jumps despite a lower skilled playerbase. It's pretty simple, honestly.

 

[Das Koopa]

Nairo SDs, KID Goggles takes a game off Nairo. I think Goggles should make use of the paralyzer more when he copies it.

Edit: Goggles loses games 2-4 pretty solidly.

 

[Blobface]

Regarding Ganon, I feel most players are ranking his MU performance very badly based on top level play and assuming that most top level players will either camp him or do everything perfectly against him. However, in lower levels of play where these two things are less common, Ganon's performance in virtually every MU is exponentially more successful. If the opponent misspaces, throws out moves in the wrong place, messes up at the ledge, misses a tech or punish, etc. Ganon can capitalize on these mistakes far more than a majority of the cast with long reaching punishes that either deal ludicrous amounts of damage, or can straight up kill the opponent. This, I feel, is a large reason as to why his results in april were much better than expected.

This is what I meant. Ganon's character attributes are the exact same in every match he's in, but the person he's playing against changes every time. Thus, the explanation of "People haven't been playing against Ganon right" is exponentially more contrived than "Ganon isn't as bad as previously considered". You can't simply assume the former to be true. You have to prove it with video and analysis.

To put this into perspective, I could state that Ganon is actually a high tier, but his unusually low results are a result of his players playing him too defensively to really abuse the shieldbreak potential on his powerful safe-on-shield moves like F-air, B-air, and JC U-smash. Obviously that's nonsense, but it is effectively the exact same statement as saying "People don't play against Ganon right". In the absence of outside evidence, I'm presuming a convoluted non-universal factor (Ganon's Player) is a more likely cause than a simple universal one (Ganon's Character).

 

[Nintenpro]

Neokan Party results

1) Glutonny
2) Anragon
3) EVK | Griffith
4) Vanaheim
5) Purner
5) Phogos
7) Scarhi
7) Biglink

http://challonge.com/NeokanPartyBrackets

This tournament has so many upsets ! GF was Falco vs Wario lol
You can find the VODs here: http://games.dailymotion.com/event2give/x482uvi
Griffith vs Anragon at 1h56min, the hypest matches of the tournament !


Das Koopa Yep Anoer still uses Falcon and Sahone is a Shulk main !

 

[Greward]

Mega Man is not high tier. He's at the lower end of the "borderline" crew and could easily be riding on MU inexperience. There have been surges of MM results like this before. He's good, but a lot of characters are good.

MU inexperience does really boost megaman since he's a weird character and has some traps and very cheesy options that should be known beforehand.

But this is not the case of anyone in Japan. Mega Man is super popular there and there are a lot of strong mega man players. No way in hell Kamemushi results are because of matchup inexperience.

It's hard to say who's high tier in this game (it is very meta-dependant) but if he's not high tier he'll eventually be in the long run. He's a technical character with excellent neutral game that we're still figuring out how to play and there's a lot of room to improve.
With sheik matchup turning doable he's hardly held back by anything now. He's solo viable and not a lot of "mid tiers" can say that.

 

[Y2Kay]

@san. is fighting Ally right now

He makes the match up look even. And that air doge read! :D

 

[Jalil]

Idk bout Megaman being solo viable. We haven't seen much of mm vs sheik post patch and Sheik still dominates him in everything but killing.

 

[Nu~]

MU inexperience does really boost megaman since he's a weird character and has some traps and very cheesy options that should be known beforehand.

But this is not the case of anyone in Japan. Mega Man is super popular there and there are a lot of strong mega man players. No way in hell Kamemushi results are because of matchup inexperience.

It's hard to say who's high tier in this game (it is very meta-dependant) but if he's not high tier he'll eventually be in the long run. He's a technical character with excellent neutral game that we're still figuring out how to play and there's a lot of room to improve.
With sheik matchup turning doable he's hardly held back by anything now. He's solo viable and not a lot of "mid tiers" can say that.

While I agree with everything in this post, I'm pretty sure Mario takes Sheik's spot now as a gatekeeper of sorts.
That matchup hasn't gotten any easier. Mario still takes you from 0-60 in 3.5

Until this matchup is figured out, I'm not sure if we can say mega man is purely solo viable. But like you said, I'm positive that mega man will be higher up in the long run.

 

[Das Koopa]

This tournament has so many upsets ! GF was Falco vs Wario lol
You can find the VODs here: http://games.dailymotion.com/event2give/x482uvi
Griffith vs Anragon at 1h56min, the hypest matches of the tournament !


Das Koopa Yep Anoer still uses Falcon and Sahone is a Shulk main !

Thanks!

For clarification (since I was never sure the last time he topped) Dakou uses Lucas?

 

[Nintenpro]

Thanks!

For clarification (since I was never sure the last time he topped) Dakou uses Lucas?

Yes, he only uses Lucas.

 

[Solfiner]

Starting to see more and more Shulk rep popping up at last. I guess the Sheik nerf really helps in bracket even though it wasn't his worst MU.

 

[bc1910]

While I agree with everything in this post, I'm pretty sure Mario takes Sheik's spot now as a gatekeeper of sorts.
That matchup hasn't gotten any easier. Mario still takes you from 0-60 in 3.5

Until this matchup is figured out, I'm not sure if we can say mega man is purely solo viable. But like you said, I'm positive that mega man will be higher up in the long run.

Having won an extremely stacked Japanese tourney this weekend (even if the number of entrants was on the low side) I can't say for sure that he's not solo viable. But I am inclined to agree with you - there are plenty of characters, Sheik included, who still give this character a really hard time.

He'll end up higher though for sure. He should be considered to be in the ROB/Luigi range rather than the Peach/Pac-Man range he usually gets dumped in.

Incidentally, how does Mega Man land the kill on Sonic?

 

[TheGlove]

While I agree with everything in this post, I'm pretty sure Mario takes Sheik's spot now as a gatekeeper of sorts.
That matchup hasn't gotten any easier. Mario still takes you from 0-60 in 3.5

Until this matchup is figured out, I'm not sure if we can say mega man is purely solo viable. But like you said, I'm positive that mega man will be higher up in the long run.

Interestingly Scatt feels that the Mario Match up is doable now, hopefully he gets to play ally or Anti sometime soon. He did take Anti's mario to a last stock high percent situation, and Anti chose to switch to ZSS despite clutching it out.

At Eglx Logic elimiates Venom 3:1 forcing him off ryu. One thing I noticed was that logic would cancel out the hitbox on tatsumaki by throwing a pickman and then throw out a smash attack to punish

 

[Greward]

Idk bout Megaman being solo viable. We haven't seen much of mm vs sheik post patch and Sheik still dominates him in everything but killing.

Scatt vs void (postpach):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCjbrLdrLKQ

Scatt vs Mr R (prepatch):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDU5tkoPG10

I think Scatt also had a similar set against Vinnie's prepatch sheik (with similar success to vs Ramin) but I can't find it.

It's still disadvantage imo but way more doable. Besides killing, nerfs on range are very helpful, specially fair. And weight nerf is obviously appreciated.

He'll end up higher though for sure. He should be considered to be in the ROB/Luigi range rather than the Peach/Pac-Man range he usually gets dumped in.

Incidentally, how does Mega Man land the kill on Sonic?

Usually you either kill him with a bair when he jumps after spindash or the basic juggle/edgeguard read. Upthrow and usmash are also there as options (although usmash is risky but beats some landings and can be used out of shield).
Fsmash is actually useful in this matchup if sonic starts side B in the air since he'll get hit by it.
Uptilt is strong vs jab out of shield, also beats spindash.

And let's be honest, you will time out Sonic a lot of the time so you ain't fishing for kills.

 

[Blobface]

Venom vs Logic seemed to show that Bayonetta just had nothing to get Pikmin off of her if Olimar is out of Witch Time range, All her moves missing. Logic would get just one or two pikmin on Venom and he'd eat 10-20%.