Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

-the fastest (?) usmash in the game at frame 7, and deals 16% and KO's a bit later than Fox's, while not having too much ending lag (~30 frames)

Third fastest. Pit's is f6 and Diddy's is f5. I don't think Diddy and Pit's are especially good at hitting grounded opponents though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think greninja slightly wins the match up as well. I think the mobility difference, and Shurikens really make a difference.

How much does greninja's multi hits matter? Fully charge Shurikens, up air, Bair, and up smash cut straight through focus attack.

But it seems like everyone and their mom thinks that having a few multi hits Mars the Rui match up even.

Yeah the multi hits dont mean **** lol

 

[arbustopachon]

Third fastest. Pit's is f6 and Diddy's is f5. I don't think Diddy and Pit's are especially good at hitting grounded opponents though.

Fourth fastest, Zard's U-smash is frame 6 against people in the air. Tied with falco at frame 7 for grounded opponents tho.

 

[FullMoon]

Gren's Up-Smash being multihit is kinda good for the Ryu MU because if Ryu makes a bad call with Focus Attack then he gets punished pretty hard by it considering how strong frog's Up-Smash is.

It's nothing particularly great but every little bit helps.

I think the MU is even myself but it's been ages since I last faced a Ryu.

 

[PK Gaming]

When we were trying to figure out character viability, we originally were trying to consider the poles of top and bottom with arbitrary limits based ultimately around a 'feel'.
Blame meeeeeeeeeeee
But many a low tier hath been buffed the **** out of since then. Mewtwo, Marth, Lucina, Robin, Charizard, Bowser, Wii Fit - they are hard for us to consider as bottom contenders rather than the threatening demeanour they have now, furthermore you have a lot of changes tallied over onto DK, Ganondorf, Link, Palutena, Kirby, Ike, Samus and Zelda.
Of course Ike but we all thought he was competent/mid tier after the first 5 rounds of buffs.

Tell me about it.

Nowadays tournaments have at least 1 non-tournament staple character, and there are so many different kind of people doing well with different characters, its getting harder and harder to rank them in order, lol. Definitely not a bad thing though.

 

[Emblem Lord]

To elaborate on Greninja vs Ryu

Ryu controls space with his normals, but Greninja has disjointed Fair and Nair which are both pretty safe when spaced well. He can rely on whiff punishing with grabs, but Greninja gets more out of the same gameplan and controls the space better thanks to superior walk speed, run speed, and aerial mobility. He even has a crawl letting him maneuver around hadoukens uninhibited.

Shurikens are better in this match then hadoukens, but Ryu has FADC air dash to hop those and close space.

Ryu has some other stuff too. He has overall much stronger defensive punishing options. Hitting Ryu's shield poorly and Greninja feels pain. And he is on the other side of the spectrum as well. Greninja having poor options on block, Ryu is much safer when pressing an offense and Greninja is forced to be defensive. Focus Attack in neutral is strong against Greninjas main spacing tools and can lead to heavy punishes. Ryu cannot 0 to death Greninja off a Focus, but he can still make him feel pain with a simple dair to tilt shoryu/tatsu. Ryu also has light shoryu as AA, when Greninja gets a little too SH happy.

Edgeguarding Greninja takes it home. Not only is he harder to edgeguard, but Ryu is pretty easy for Greninja to swat with a disjointed fair. Ryu is also vulnerable to hydro pump gimp, since his recovery is rather linear.

Main theme here is Ryu has to rely heavy on counter play at pretty much every turn. Still the reward is high and Ryu can kill Greninja far sooner then vice versa. Ryu is generally the king of counter play, but Greninja has enough things going for him that I give him the nod. Overall Greninja more or less dictates the pace though Ryu CAN turn it around, it's not easy and Greninja's reward hit for hit is more or less on par with Ryus. And of course he can choose to disengage altogether and play runaway.

*shrug* I give it to greninja 55-45.

 

[|RK|]

Komo's MU spread is pretty legit, there's one thing that baffles me though...

What is Lucario doing in Even matchups?
I mean, i'm not a Lucario main, but what i've heard about this matchup is not pretty:
Said to be Lucario's worst matchup and judged as a -2 by some Lucario mains.
I'd like to know Komorikiri's reasoning on that.

I wanted to ask exactly this, lol

 

[Mr. Johan]

Every time someone tries to say slow jump squats don't matter, I feel compelled to remind that Robin with a standardized frame 4 jumpsquat would be goddamn horrifying.

People can barely react to an effectively frame 17 Uair and frame 18 Fair as it is, I can't imagine how they'd deal with a Fair just at the limit of a non-vacuum reaction time and a Bair and Uair that's even faster.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Genuinely the first time I've heard an Ike player admit to losing any MU besides Sheik, but thanks for the explanations.

tbqh, that's probably partly because we still have a wide variety of opinions on the MUs outside of Sheik. I know Rango for... w/e reason still thinks we lose to Sonic. Seen several who think ZSS might be an even MU. Some think MK is down to 45-55, got a few who think Mario might be 50-50...

The list I posted was me just trying to grab the more common opinions, the ones that would most likely end up winning if we had to make an "official" MU chart for Ike. Truthfully we're all over the place, particularly if the MU is between 45-55 and 55-45. Which is probably close to 75% of our MUs.

 

[Fatmanonice]

What are people's thoughts on where Corrin is at right about now? People talk about Bayo and Cloud (and Mewtwo) so much that this topic seems cast aside in the corner. I thought the general consensus was that he/she is definitely above average and probably high tier. I haven't really followed how much the nerfs last patch affected him/her. Corrin may be slow but he/she is also a wall of large disjoints with a threatening projectile. Also what are his/her results like so far?

Honestly, I find it hard to say because Corrin is definitely good but it's hard to say just how good because, in my opinion, the character has a lot of competition, especially if we were to label them high tier. Arguments for what qualifies as high tier has definitely expanded as the ceiling has been lowered with the past couple of patches. Think about all the new characters that people have regularly argued for high tier since the last tier list was published: . Of these 10 candidates only 2 are virtually unanimous for their high tier placement ((top but, whatever) ), leaving 8 to be argued. In the last tier list, top and high consisted of 15 characters so adding the full 10 is highly unlikely and things are made even more difficult when maybe half of these characters have fairly similar results. Still, it's obvious that not all of them will get the stamp of approval and most would likely be squeezed in at the lower end of high tier/higher end of mid tier anyways. Of the remaining 8, I will say that and probably have the biggest chances of graduating to high tier though.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Every time someone tries to say slow jump squats don't matter, I feel compelled to remind that Robin with a standardized frame 4 jumpsquat would be goddamn horrifying.

People can barely react to an effectively frame 17 Uair and frame 18 Fair as it is, I can't imagine how they'd deal with a Fair just at the limit of a non-vacuum reaction time and a Bair and Uair that's even faster.

Imagine all superheavies with a frame 3 or 2 jump squat and 3 frames worth of landing lag

That'd be crazzzy...........fun

 

[KamikazePotato]

In the last tier list, top and high consisted of 15 characters so adding the full 10 is highly unlikely and things are made even more difficult when maybe half of these characters have fairly similar results.

What's wrong with High tier just being bigger? At least until further notice. I honestly don't think there's a huge difference between the characters you just listed and most of the characters already in High tier, if there's a difference at all. Smash 4 is a pretty well-balanced game and I think the clearly-stratified tier lists of the past aren't going to work anymore. Even most of the absolute worst characters in this game are somewhat viable. I honestly think there could be a Top Tier of 6-8 characters, a High Tier of 20 or so, and then a Mid Tier of everyone else. Except Jigglypuff.

 

[Yikarur]

I think Diddy is by far Ike's worst MU. I'd say it's Ikes only -2 MU. In neutral Diddy just needs to wait until Ike commits and if Diddy is in advantage Ike needs a hard-guess to get back in neutral or his opponent needs to mess up. This is an oversimplified representation of the MU but it's really accurate.

 

[Nobie]

Slight tangent: Based on all your avatars, I know this thread is filled with anime and manga fans. Well, the Nisekoi author mentioned Abadango in this week's issue of Shonen Jump: http://imgur.com/D8t17kr

Back to the actual thread, I think it's rather notable that Komorikiri rates Cloud's best matchups like 55:45 at absolute worst, which is way less extreme than the numbers that get thrown around in this thread and in the scene in general. Is he just rating Cloud's bad recovery as that much of a weakness, or perhaps that while Cloud is easy to learn he does have his limitations (which are meant to be broken)?

 

[bc1910]

Honestly, I find it hard to say because Corrin is definitely good but it's hard to say just how good because, in my opinion, the character has a lot of competition, especially if we were to label them high tier. Arguments for what qualifies as high tier has definitely expanded as the ceiling has been lowered with the past couple of patches. Think about all the new characters that people have regularly argued for high tier since the last tier list was published: . Of these 10 candidates only 2 are virtually unanimous for their high tier placement ((top but, whatever) ), leaving 8 to be argued. In the last tier list, top and high consisted of 15 characters so adding the full 10 is highly unlikely and things are made even more difficult when maybe half of these characters have fairly similar results. Still, it's obvious that not all of them will get the stamp of approval and most would likely be squeezed in at the lower end of high tier/higher end of mid tier anyways. Of the remaining 8, I will say that and probably have the biggest chances of graduating to high tier though.

Thing is, going by the BR's previous tier separations, there would no longer be any top tiers except Bayonetta.

By this I mean the BR's definition of top and high tier is far too narrow. In all previous Smash games around 1/3rd of the roster has made high tier, and this is probably the most balanced game in the series. Why, then, should high tier be restricted to around 15 characters? We should be looking at a 20 character high tier, minimum. I really don't know why the cutoff point for high tier is as high as it is.

Bear in mind we don't really know how the tier separations were decided and most top player tier lists (including ones from people who voted in the BR, like Dabuz and ZeRo) have high tier extending down to the ~#25 mark. There's just no reason to restrict high tier as much as it was restricted before.

Of your candidates I think Wii Fit is the odd one out, she's good but I don't see her rising to high tier even if it's expanded by ~10 characters. Remember Falcon, Yoshi and the Pits technically aren't high tier either.

...Greninja's reward hit for hit is more or less on par with Ryus.

Agree with everything you said, but this in particular caught my eye. Do you think Greninja's advantage state is about as good as Ryu's? Whilst I think Greninja's advantage state is very good, Ryu is one of the characters who I'd say gets more hit for hit due to having earlier kill confirms and higher guaranteed damage.

Though if you're mostly considering the moves Ryu is most likely to land, I do see where you're coming from. He'll land dashgrabs and whatnot but his truly devasting combo starters, like his tilts and Focus Attack, aren't that easy to land on Greninja.

Also, out of interest, can I ask what you consider the Ryu/Sheik MU to be now?

 

[ぱみゅ]

Slight tangent: Based on all your avatars, I know this thread is filled with anime and manga fans. Well, the Nisekoi author mentioned Abadango in this week's issue of Shonen Jump: http://imgur.com/D8t17kr

Just when I switched off the Chitoge avi....


Komorikiri's list is quite strange.
Having only one losing matchup speaks volumes of the character.
Strangely enough tho... I don't think it's wrong. Really, what matchups do Clouds think he actually loses?

 

[Fatmanonice]

What's wrong with High tier just being bigger? At least until further notice. I honestly don't think there's a huge difference between the characters you just listed and most of the characters already in High tier, if there's a difference at all. Smash 4 is a pretty well-balanced game and I think the clearly-stratified tier lists of the past aren't going to work anymore. Even most of the absolute worst characters in this game are somewhat viable. I honestly think there could be a Top Tier of 6-8 characters, a High Tier of 20 or so, and then a Mid Tier of everyone else. Except Jigglypuff.

I dunno. Maybe it's just because a 20+ high tier would be downright surreal to most people. I've followed competitive Smash since about 2006 and it's still kind of hard for me to wrap my head around the balance of this game. Like me and a number of other people have pointed out in the past couple of months, roughly half of the characters in this game can reasonably rank at a decent sized tournament with maybe up to a fourth being able to reasonably win. With Brawl and Melee, you could count the number of characters likely to win a tournament on one hand so it kind of becomes an issue what "high tier" really even means in this game. Unlike past games, high tier isn't a sort of exclusive club anymore and even low tier isn't completely damning anymore. As someone pointed out the other day, we've gotten to a point where people have made arguments that Roy, Falco, and Bowser Jr are bottom ten when these characters, given their traits and match ups, would probably be mid tier in Melee and Brawl. Again, this is kind of surreal when we've reached a point where "meh" is the new "bad" and mid tier is no longer a strict glass ceiling for competitive hopefuls because so many of them are that good and well rounded.

 

[C0rvus]

If Luigi is high tier, then Roy is mid tier. Get real.

Call me a pessimist, but Luigi isn't good at all. He can be camped and he has to fish for kills. Sure, his has some dumb frame data and Cyclone cheese, but I think he has nowhere to go but down.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Thing is, going by the BR's previous tier separations, there would no longer be any top tiers except Bayonetta.

By this I mean the BR's definition of top and high tier is far too narrow. In all previous Smash games around 1/3rd of the roster has made high tier, and this is probably the most balanced game in the series. Why, then, should high tier be restricted to around 15 characters? We should be looking at a 20 character high tier, minimum. I really don't know why the cutoff point for high tier is as high as it is.

Bear in mind we don't really know how the tier separations were decided and most top player tier lists (including ones from people who voted in the BR, like Dabuz and ZeRo) have high tier extending down to the ~#25 mark. There's just no reason to restrict high tier as much as it was restricted before.

Of your candidates I think Wii Fit is the odd one out, she's good but I don't see her rising to high tier even if it's expanded by ~10 characters. Remember Falcon, Yoshi and the Pits technically aren't high tier either.



Agree with everything you said, but this in particular caught my eye. Do you think Greninja's advantage state is about as good as Ryu's? Whilst I think Greninja's advantage state is very good, Ryu is one of the characters who I'd say gets more hit for hit due to having earlier kill confirms and higher guaranteed damage.

Though if you're mostly considering the moves Ryu is most likely to land, I do see where you're coming from. He'll land dashgrabs and whatnot but his truly devasting combo starters, like his tilts and Focus Attack, aren't that easy to land on Greninja.

Also, out of interest, can I ask what you consider the Ryu/Sheik MU to be now?

Ryu smacks sheik now imo.

Fair was the main thing she could throw out in footsies. Now Ryu can easily tap it with an utilt and thats an easy 20% combo more or less if she gets hit. She has to run with needles which is less effective now. And she gets way less with grabs.

For the damage comparison I'm looking at what Ryu and Greninja are likely to land as well as common conversions during footsie exchanges and whiff punishes. Greninja isnt really far off from what Ryu will get not to mention a more threatening grab game. And since shadow sneak cancel is a thing with the frog, talking about hypothetical HYUGE DAMNUGHE CAWHBUHS FRUM RYUH...is effin pointless.

No Greninja's advantage is not better then Ryus. Only Bayonetta can claim that title. But in this match when you compare and contrast tools between characters NOT overall or in a vacuum, the two characters are comparable in terms of raw consistent damage output.

Ryu kills way better tho which keeps it close. It could be even. I dont think it is. But the match is close enough that the smarter player will prevail.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Slight tangent: Based on all your avatars, I know this thread is filled with anime and manga fans. Well, the Nisekoi author mentioned Abadango in this week's issue of Shonen Jump: http://imgur.com/D8t17kr

Back to the actual thread, I think it's rather notable that Komorikiri rates Cloud's best matchups like 55:45 at absolute worst, which is way less extreme than the numbers that get thrown around in this thread and in the scene in general. Is he just rating Cloud's bad recovery as that much of a weakness, or perhaps that while Cloud is easy to learn he does have his limitations (which are meant to be broken)?

Ganon definitely loses to Cloud 60-40 or worse. Against an optimized one I'd guess 65-35, mostly because Ganon can gimp him well enough. Otherwise it'd be insanely bad.

 

[Mario766]

I think Diddy is by far Ike's worst MU. I'd say it's Ikes only -2 MU. In neutral Diddy just needs to wait until Ike commits and if Diddy is in advantage Ike needs a hard-guess to get back in neutral or his opponent needs to mess up. This is an oversimplified representation of the MU but it's really accurate.

Until Bayo can't 0-death us...

No.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I dunno. Maybe it's just because a 20+ high tier would be downright surreal to most people. I've followed competitive Smash since about 2006 and it's still kind of hard for me to wrap my head around the balance of this game. Like me and a number of other people have pointed out in the past couple of months, roughly half of the characters in this game can reasonably rank at a decent sized tournament with maybe up to a fourth being able to reasonably win. With Brawl and Melee, you could count the number of characters likely to win a tournament on one hand so it kind of becomes an issue what "high tier" really even means in this game. Unlike past games, high tier isn't a sort of exclusive club anymore and even low tier isn't completely damning anymore. As someone pointed out the other day, we've gotten to a point where people have made arguments that Roy, Falco, and Bowser Jr are bottom ten when these characters, given their traits and match ups, would probably be mid tier in Melee and Brawl. Again, this is kind of surreal when we've reached a point where "meh" is the new "bad" and mid tier is no longer a strict glass ceiling for competitive hopefuls because so many of them are that good and well rounded.

I have also been here for a while, and while it would've been unthinkable at the times of Brawl that 40-ish% of the cast would be viable, the game's higher part of the board is just that stacked.
My personal list right now has 14 characters at the Top+High realm and other 9 at the Threatening tier, while a good other bunch is at the "may take sets off of top tiers if not careful" side.
I simply think it is amazing how much the game has developed (it was about as bad as the previous ones at release, Balance-wise), and that so many characters are actually usable, unlike in other games.

Spoiler: My list, in case anyone is interested

S: Bayonetta, Cloud, Rosalina, Diddy
A: ZSS, Fox, Sonic, Mario, Sheik, MK, Pikachu, Ness, Villager, Ryu
B (not actually ordered): Falcon, Kamui, Pits, Toon Link, Greninja, Yoshi, ROB, Luigi, Lucario
Those are 23 usable characters.

 

[Radical Larry]

Until Bayo can't 0-death us...

No.

Wait, are we talking about a character who's weaknesses are just windboxes, Cloud and projectiles off stage?
Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XDLkXTCOvw

 

[Polar Bair]

Somebody has to be bottom 10. Who would you put below Falco? Be honest. 9 characters is pushing it a little, imo

Being bottom 10 doesn't necessarily mean you're outright bad in this game, keep that in mind.

In no order: Zelda, Puff, B.Jr., DDD, Duck Hunt, Ganon, Link, Doc, Charizard, Roy. Bonus: Miis, if we're counting them. Falco has a lot of solid moves (one of, if not the best bair in the game), combo game, and setups. The only thing he lacks is speed. I feel like I have to actually respect Falco when I fight him, with anyone I play.

 

[Deleted member]

If Luigi is high tier, then Roy is mid tier. Get real.

Call me a pessimist, but Luigi isn't good at all. He can be camped and he has to fish for kills. Sure, his has some dumb frame data and Cyclone cheese, but I think he has nowhere to go but down.

You are being a pessimist.

People are way too adamant on characters being "overrated" in this thread.

He still has a solid projectile, grab game, damage output, juggles and aerials. He isn't a great character, but he's fulfills his design philosophy and does it well. He also still gets decent results which most people seem to gloss over. I agree he's not high tier and does have apparent flaws, but calling him "not good" is simply not true considering his toolkit. Mid tier isn't a very bad place to be in Smash 4. As others have said, some amount of characters wish they could be mid tier.

Also pretty annoying to see everyone and their mom thinking they beat Luigi, even if his higher tier MUs aren't exactly stellar if to my knowledge anyway. Somebody can clear that up for me if they want.

 

[Mario766]

Wait, are we talking about a character who's weaknesses are just windboxes, Cloud and projectiles off stage?
Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XDLkXTCOvw

Chalk up another terrible post from Larry.

Cloud's a MU that is even

Projectiles can be avoided by sweetspotting

and windboxes can be avoided as well.


I suggest you go back to trying to talk about how Link goes even or beats pre-patch Sheik, that was a fun time.

 

[Yonder]

You are being a pessimist.

People are way too adamant on characters being "overrated" in this thread.

He still has a solid projectile, grab game, damage output, juggles and aerials. He isn't a great character, but he's fulfills his design philosophy and does it well. He also still gets decent results which most people seem to gloss over. I agree he's not high tier and does have apparent flaws, but calling him "not good" is simply not true considering his toolkit. Mid tier isn't a very bad place to be in Smash 4. As others have said, some amount of characters wish they could be mid tier.

Also pretty annoying to see everyone and their mom thinking they beat Luigi, even if his higher tier MUs aren't exactly stellar if to my knowledge anyway. Somebody can clear that up for me if they want.

Luigi is usually the suspect I see when it comes to a mid tier justifying themselves on what high tier they beat. Yeah, Luigi probably does lose to Pac Man, Mega Man, Greninja, all suspected mid tiers closing in on high (well not pac)

On the other hand, Luigi has a combination of good high/top tier matchups that pretty much no mid tier can claim to have. What mid tier goes even/beats slightly Fox, Mario, AND Diddy? Sonic is a wildcard but Luigi also holds his ground against him, and Luigi goes even against Falcon, who is on the rise. It helps that Falcon is the easiest character in the game to dair spike when he tries to recover.

Luigi may lose a lot of random mid tier matchups but also does decent against a lot of relevant characters in the current metagame. Yeah yeah he loses to Sheik, Rosa, Bayo is undermined...

But he is a radical character. At least a radical upper mid to middle of the pack. We all should have seen like in Brawl, he was bound to drop as speed became more prevalent. But unlike Brawl, MK doesn't beat him even worse than he did almost anyone else (it was 90:10 MK's favor). That alone keeps him afloat, no one wrecks him that badly.

He is not a low tier though. The physics in this game complementing his dthrow and his frame data to combo ratio is just too invalidating to be low tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In neutral Diddy just needs to wait until <insert character> commits and if Diddy is in advantage <insert character> needs a hard-guess to get back in neutral or his opponent needs to mess up. This is an oversimplified representation of the MU but it's really accurate.

That's just how Diddy works though, isn't it? His mere non-commitment is so good, it probably covers more than half of his matchups all by itself easily.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

That's just how Diddy works though, isn't it? His mere non-commitment is so good, it probably covers more than half of his matchups all by itself easily.

On that line of thought, what's Diddys bad MUs? Or rather which character would be the easiest pocket character to pick up to deal with Diddy?

 

[sedrf]

MR R made a sheik match up chart

 

[Y2Kay]

Honestly, Luigi's match up spread is one of the most suspect things about him

He has troublesome match ups with top tiers like

Then he has some iffy or bad matchups with "his fellow high tiers"

And then he gets problems with random mid/ low tiers like:

He has strengths in his down throw combos, but they are so easy to counter-play. That's my main issue with him. He just doesn't strike me as super good, honestly.

 

[Smog Frog]

earlier in the thread, i said that fair was the best aerial. i've changed my mind now, i remembered bair exists

-frame 6-8, same startup and active frames(for the strong hitbox) as fair
-can be shff ac, considering it's f19 autocancel
-very strong considering it's speed+safety
-can set up traps w/ usmash considering it's a low commitment aerial
-it's range and safety allows him to effectively block most approaches

it's a borked aerial in a vacuum, at least it's on

 

[LiL.Will]

On that line of thought, what's Diddys bad MUs? Or rather which character would be the easiest pocket character to pick up to deal with Diddy?

or

 

[ぱみゅ]

MR R made a sheik match up chart

It looks like one of ESAM's lists where he needs to move down like half the characters there.
Sheik has a lot of difficult matchups now, not only 2.

 

[Nekoo]

I'm going to be extremely biased. But...Are people really saying that Roy is Bottom 10 when (without Any order) exist?

You guys are 17 Day late. April Fools is already over.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I think Roy is bottom 10 because I do not see 1111 Miis as real characters.
Also, Little Mac is extremely inconsistent, but I don't see how he'd be a bottom 10 with that scary frame data.

 

[Pancracio17]

is samus still that bad? i thought her new buffs helped her a ton and got her out of it. but maybe they didnt change that much.

 

[Nekoo]

is samus still that bad? i thought her new buffs helped her a ton and got her out of it. but maybe they didnt change that much.

Her buff are really good. Some Hitbox fix, frame etc. But i don't know if there as been some big Result (since it's what we use to back claim if i correctly understand) of Samus result since then.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to be extremely biased. But...Are people really saying that Roy is Bottom 10 when (without Any order) exist?

You guys are 17 Day late. April Fools is already over.

I hate getting into discussions like this because I find them mostly fruitless, but I'll indulge.

..People still think Samus is a bottom 10 character? Really? Her results and toolkit are far too good to be "bottom 10" material. When she's a character that's almost taken a set off ZeRo and has had other notable upsets even before her big set of buffs, I've felt like people haven't given this character the real light of day. I have similar feelings about Palutena, I'm fairly adamant she isn't in that spot either when she's actually doing quite okay.

 

[TurboLink]

Is Samus really worse than Roy? Doesn't she even have better results than Roy?