Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

I don't care too much about "bottom 5/10/15" arguments mostly because I don't presume its that easy to a) naturally fit the lower tiers into such neat brackets or b) to figure out the proper ranking within low tier. To the extent anyone should be discussing low tiers at this point it should only be about figuring out who actually is low tier to begin with.

seem to be the characters considered most often as the "low tiers" of this game and that's already 17 characters! It just comes off as pointless semantics.

Honestly people put bottom tier as 15, 10, and 5 spots just because it's a neat little number. The number of bottom tiers probably something like 6-8

 

[Ninety]

I don't care too much about "bottom 5/10/15" arguments mostly because I don't presume its that easy to a) naturally fit the lower tiers into such neat brackets or b) to figure out the proper ranking within low tier. To the extent anyone should be discussing low tiers at this point it should only be about figuring out who actually is low tier to begin with.

seem to be the characters considered most often as the "low tiers" of this game and that's already 17 characters! It just comes off as pointless semantics.

If nothing else, I think you could roughly draft a high-mid-low division by thirds that shouldn't be too contentious, perhaps with some grey areas at the seams. Aside from this list of low tiers, there's also some 20-25 characters that everyone seems to agree comprise the high tiers, and the rest are in mid.

 

[Dre89]

I'd argue zoning/range characters are designed to get bodied when someone gets in.

The question is, how hard can they make it to get in?

Link is actually extremely difficult to approach because of his range. His projectiles are more for just making people approach so he can punish it, rather than doing most of the damage themselves.

I'm honestly surprised they gave him grab reward considering it's so easy to get grabs with him due to his absurd dashgrab range.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

On the topic of Link, who is carrying him? On the competitive channels I follow, the only notable Link I know about is Hyrule Hero and he's usually bopped before the top 16. As Fox is Openly Deceptive kind of alluded to, I never hear about Link players or them making waves.

Here.

Scizor - 13th at Fire and Dice. 33rd at Paragon, 9th at Collegiate Colosseum, 13th at 2GGT FOW Saga
Izaw - 9th at Beast 6
LordXa1vier - 9th at GUMS 07
Ember - 17th at Wii Bear Bairs 11
Lotuz - 7th at 96 man regional in Germany
Cat - 7th at Avalon U-III

These are just random recent ones with more known players. I'm sure someone like @TurboLink or @Rizen would know more.

Hyrule Hero made Top 16 at the last Shockwave (#77) and 9th at #74, #72, and #68, 7th at #71, #70, and 5th at #69 and #67.

So its really only those two weeks where it looks like he was slumping outside of Top 16 (76 and 75) recently.

 

[Das Koopa]

There are a few characters people often categorize as low tier that have or do get passable results:



At the bottom, there are characters that get very little in comparison to the above and are often considered to be plainly bad:


Then, there's a pile of characters who "theoretically" could be the top list, but have little to no representation, but theory doesn't place them to be as bad as the bottom members of the cast:


All of these characters tend to have excuses for no representation:


A: While it appears rulesets seem to be settling on 1111, few people use Mii Fighters.
B: It seems agreed (?) upon that all of the clones are just worse versions of existing characters. Dark Pit is arguable I guess but I'd think the better arrow control matters a lot more than Dark pit's extra kill power since the former gives a more consistent neutral game. Not a Pit main so IDK for sure.

 

[Megamang]

I think something that Dark Pit has in his corner, that is almost never mentioned, is that the arrows he shoots are more powerful.

Analysis will show that regular pit does more damage with arrows for all the situations he gets to bully people without them being able to fight back, and he gimps recoveries, etc etc etc. I know that they have more utility, and can even score gimps...

But for a straight shooting horizontal zoning tool... Dark arrows are stronger! They hit for more damage. For someone like Cloud, this can make a difference too! Damage counts. It makes your shield less able to block multi hits later, for example, if you were to take two Dark arrows over two regular arrows.

Also, I'd imagine there is some significant different projectile interactions due to the damage? Maybe? Maybe with full charged DFS?

IDK, but I do know that sometimes you just wanna fire a horizontal shot, and DP isn't worse at that!

And electroshock arm is... super good. even if it doesn't land, it really forces a lot of respect when you fear you might just get disrespect-armor'd thru your landing option/wakeup option/ground option... And if you survive, you're doing another landing, which is scary because between Electroshock arm and Dashgrab-Fthrow, Dpit covers your options well...


Im not gonna go too much into Eshock vs Rollerskate or whatever Pit has, that has been covered well here. I just wanted to say, that Dpits arrows aren't strictly worse. There is a lot to be said about more aggressive players who decide to take stage control instead of trying to loop arrows around at you anyways.

 

[williamsga555]

@- IMO, top 10. I think the radius in which this character gets to dominate is massive, kinda shuts down tons of characters for free. Too many Corrin mains press too many buttons.

This is something I think is right on the money (and I believe Shaya at one point also made a Corrin post saying something rather similar). Non-committal Corrin is strong, and I wouldn't be shocked at all if they end up developing into a top 10 spot (if they're not there already, which seems to be the majority view at the moment).

The risk/reward is almost always skewed in Corrin's favor against a majority of the cast. The speed, reach, and damage output of almost every one of their buttons is amazing. And those that tend to do less damage, like nair, have some other absurd properties to compensate (I'll be the last person to tell you Corrin's nair is bad. That move is nutty).

Also, calling it now (perhaps it's a bit late at this point?), but down the line, Dragon Fang Shot is going to be considered an incredibly obnoxious move, if it isn't already. While the projectile isn't terribly impressive, it belonging to Corrin's neutral in particular is amazing, and the bite is one of the most overtuned moves in the game on its own. It's a smash attack with a potential confirm/whiff punish built in with the projectile, can be used to stall in mid-air (this is amazing for off-stage pressure, particularly with the threat of instant side-b ever present), and carries fairly minimal risk for how dangerous the move is. I'm not saying it's something that will be a cornerstone of their neutral, but rather, that the move isn't yet being given the amount of credit it's due.

 

[ARGHETH]

Also, I'd imagine there is some significant different projectile interactions due to the damage? Maybe? Maybe with full charged DFS?

Nope. Pit's arrows are 3% minimum, so even if DFS (11%) wasn't low priority, they would still clank.

 

[Hero_2_All]

This is something I think is right on the money (and I believe Shaya at one point also made a Corrin post saying something rather similar). Non-committal Corrin is strong, and I wouldn't be shocked at all if they end up developing into a top 10 spot (if they're not there already, which seems to be the majority view at the moment).

The risk/reward is almost always skewed in Corrin's favor against a majority of the cast. The speed, reach, and damage output of almost every one of their buttons is amazing. And those that tend to do less damage, like nair, have some other absurd properties to compensate (I'll be the last person to tell you Corrin's nair is bad. That move is nutty).

Also, calling it now (perhaps it's a bit late at this point?), but down the line, Dragon Fang Shot is going to be considered an incredibly obnoxious move, if it isn't already. While the projectile isn't terribly impressive, it belonging to Corrin's neutral in particular is amazing, and the bite is one of the most overtuned moves in the game on its own. It's a smash attack with a potential confirm/whiff punish built in with the projectile, can be used to stall in mid-air (this is amazing for off-stage pressure, particularly with the threat of instant side-b ever present), and carries fairly minimal risk for how dangerous the move is. I'm not saying it's something that will be a cornerstone of their neutral, but rather, that the move isn't yet being given the amount of credit it's due.

Don't forget you can kill set up into aerial neutral B off of a f-air, or n-air:

Like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4ArgXWG1WI

Or like so : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al38lrJLV38

Also the momentum off her B reverses are amazing (and when it kills at 60 you best watch for it).

 

[Mr. Johan]

I think DFS is most potent when coming straight out of a dash. Corrin's dash -> neutral is actually pretty quick, so he can go straight into prepping a DFS from a dash in neutral to force an action.

That itself also creates a 50/50. If you thought a DFS was coming and shielded in response, Corrin can Dragon Lunge and back off, or just simply grab you. If you figured a grab or DL was coming and spotdodged, Corrin can call it out and throw out DFS for even more damage than you would have gotten otherwise, and may have even lost a stock for it. All for a single spotdodge from a DL's length away. I didn't even blink when the patch nerfed his speed slightly, because with DFS left unchanged, a very slick neutral option was also left unchanged.

DFS may be baaaaad as a projectile to use for camping as a projectile is oft used for, but the applications surrounding the chargeup itself are so highly tuned that it doesn't matter.

 

[Megamang]

On the other hand, a stun projectile that goes as far as DFS would be stupid strong on any other character. Landing sonic traps, but if you land on the charge shot you freeze and take a charged f-smash? The stuff of nightmares.

Corrin's kit... Likes it, and its amazing with her. I'd say she works alright with the stun and stuff, and she works amazingly with the bite. Again, these options are much scarier when she isn't pressing a button, and when she does the threat disappears... unless she hit you, then you're playing an even scarier game.

does she have intangible arms on nair and fair?


EDIT: And what are some MU's she suffers in? Sonic is a mystery to me, because the speed and style of his game usually dumps on people with poor mobility, but at the same time he doesn't like super dominant, safe hitboxes, so thats a wash in my head. Anyone with experience or high level footage want to let me know how that one goes?

Also, I find she isn't too scary when playing as Megaman. You can safely zone her out, and if you are max range her sword doesn't have too many followups. She can't contest pellets with her sword, and her projectile is pretty useless in this scenario. She can be sniped with dair if you position it right, since there is a time when she can't use it (during double jumps) due to its short range. Otherwise, crash bomber / uair / bair / bthrow sets up most of my kills on her. Or she does something dumb and overrcommital to try and break the zoning, and utilt kills her off the top extremely early.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

Ryo fought SuperGirlKels' Sonic using Corrin, and he had a tough time. Keep in mind he has a ton of experience vs Sonics, but then again he was still kind of newish to Corrin. Take that for what you will.

And here's said match:

 

[Mr. Johan]

If Corrin does become a dominant metagame character, Falcon might see a resurgence. Falcon gives no damns about Dragon Lunge safety options, and the disjoints are not enough to avoid his dash grab and mixups involving it. Corrin also doesn't have options good enough to fight Uair after said dash grab either.

 

[KamikazePotato]

I think Corrin has the potential to become a Top Tier character, or very close to it. Her aerials are absolutely silly considering the combination of speed+range they pack. A properly campy Corrin is extremely, extremely difficult for most characters to deal with.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think something that Dark Pit has in his corner, that is almost never mentioned, is that the arrows he shoots are more powerful.

Analysis will show that regular pit does more damage with arrows for all the situations he gets to bully people without them being able to fight back, and he gimps recoveries, etc etc etc. I know that they have more utility, and can even score gimps...

But for a straight shooting horizontal zoning tool... Dark arrows are stronger! They hit for more damage. For someone like Cloud, this can make a difference too! Damage counts. It makes your shield less able to block multi hits later, for example, if you were to take two Dark arrows over two regular arrows.

Eh... It doesn't really work out that way because Pit can charge them and still hit wherever offstage. Charging arrows makes them harder to turn, though with Pit against somebody offstage it doesn't make much of a difference. With Dark Pit his handling goes from just enough to matter to no difference at all quickly.

Pit can fire three aerial arrows for 3.3% each in 133 frames while Dark Pit can shoot two grounded arrows for 4.3% each in 116 frames. 9.9% for Pit and 8.9% for Dark Pit. Frame difference is further trivialized by the fact that Pit can space while shooting but Dark Pit can't. Even if you narrowed it down to just wearing down a shield a bit Pit's are still better.

I get what you're saying. Dark Pit's arrows aren't useless, actually I think they're a bit underrated as a projectile, but they're still practically a straight downgrade from Pit's. The most significant advantage Dark Pit's has over Pit's that I can think of is that his can kill in sudden death fully charged while Pit's can't, and obviously in a tournament setting that's not very helpful.

 

[Djmarcus44]

There are a few characters people often categorize as low tier that have or do get passable results:



At the bottom, there are characters that get very little in comparison to the above and are often considered to be plainly bad:


Then, there's a pile of characters who "theoretically" could be the top list, but have little to no representation, but theory doesn't place them to be as bad as the bottom members of the cast:


All of these characters tend to have excuses for no representation:


A: While it appears rulesets seem to be settling on 1111, few people use Mii Fighters.
B: It seems agreed (?) upon that all of the clones are just worse versions of existing characters. Dark Pit is arguable I guess but I'd think the better arrow control matters a lot more than Dark pit's extra kill power since the former gives a more consistent neutral game. Not a Pit main so IDK for sure.

Actually 1111 Brawler is worse than 1111 Swordfighter because 1111 Brawler has worse theory and results than 1111 Swordfighter. While 1111 Brawler is a fast character, his/her poor range, slow, short-ranged, projectile, and subpar aerial acceleration make his/her neutral pretty bad. While Swordfighter's neutral isn't very good either, the disjoint of the sword and the good priority of gale strike make 1111 Swordfighter at least somewhat capable of keeping an opponent out. Swordfighter's advantage state is better than Mii Brawler's because Swordfighter has an easier time killing. Both characters have good throw combos, but Swordfighter can kill with up air after an airdodge read. While 1111 Mii Brawler is better at racking up damage than 1111 Swordfighter, 1111 Mii Swordfighter is better at killing than 1111 Mii Brawler because Mii Swordfighter has more killing options. 1111 Brawler only has 2 moves that come out at or earlier than frame 11 that kill at reasonable percents while 1111 Swordfighter has 5 moves that fit these qualifications. 1111 Swordfighter is also better at edgeguarding than 1111 Brawler because 1111 Swordfighter's aerials have more range. In addition, 1111 Brawler's fall speed makes it harder for Brawler to go offstage. While Shotput is a pretty good move to throw offstage, it is hard to land this move since it is a slow projectile. 1111 Swordfighter and 1111 Brawler are about even in the disadvantage state. Although 1111 Mii Brawler has a combo breaker, 1111 Swordfighter has a better recovery.

1111 Swordfighter also has more tournament results than 1111 Brawler. 1111 Swordfighter has gotten some results from Nyani, CHOMPY, and Trela while 1111 Brawler is only a secondary for a player named Zyth. It literally took me over a year to find tournament representation for 1111 Brawler on YouTube. In addition, Dapuffster has also stated that 1111 Brawler is the worst character in the game. While Mii Brawler has shown great potential when the character is allowed to use his/her best movesets, 1111 Mii Brawler is the worst character in the game because the character has very few results, and the removal of Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump delivers a crippling blow to the killing power and recovery of Mii Brawler.

 

[Megamang]

But, I'd think Dark Pit would use his dark arrows (?) to charge and shoot in a straight line on stage, as a one time high damage high range projectile.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

You know...

Since we're talking about low tiers...

Let's try something...

Take @Deathcarter 's list.



That's a lot of characters.

Let's try and say one positive thing about each of these characters and discuss whether that positive is given enough credit. Just don't make it brain dead like " Ganondorf hits really hard." Try to make it more profound.

I'll start with one.

Samus has some nasty shield break setups and can do them from a very safe distance. She also has a neat and somewhat reliable way of meteoring out of a shield break if the conditions are right. Personally I think the meteor isn't as reliable as it should be, but the rate she can get shield breaks is incredibly exciting. I think that people aren't highlighting that fact enough and that high level Samus play will eventually turn her into a trap character as opposed to the pure zoner people seem to label her as.

Go ahead and give it a go.

 

[jespoke]

You know...

Since we're talking about low tiers...

Let's try something...

Take @Deathcarter 's list.



That's a lot of characters.

Let's try and say one positive thing about each of these characters and discuss whether that positive is given enough credit. Just don't make it brain dead like " Ganondorf hits really hard." Try to make it more profound.

I'll start with one.

Samus has some nasty shield break setups and can do them from a very safe distance. She also has a neat and somewhat reliable way of meteoring out of a shield break if the conditions are right. Personally I think the meteor isn't as reliable as it should be, but the rate she can get shield breaks is incredibly exciting. I think that people aren't highlighting that fact enough and that high level Samus play will eventually turn her into a trap character as opposed to the pure zoner people seem to label her as.

Go ahead and give it a go.

For i remember a commentator at some point during a Pugwest match mentioning how certain matchups simply don't take place at Marth's tipper range most of the time. A player that knows the matchup well shouldn't let it happen much. In those matchups Lucina does just as well as Marth without the extra headaches, making her not much theoretically better but way less difficult to execute in practice.

My personal experience doesn't count for much, but i feel it working to an extent. I intend to try it against my local scene's Fox next time i meet him, as i have yet to even put a dent in him.

 

[adom4]

You know...

Since we're talking about low tiers...

Let's try something...

Take @Deathcarter 's list.



That's a lot of characters.

Let's try and say one positive thing about each of these characters and discuss whether that positive is given enough credit. Just don't make it brain dead like " Ganondorf hits really hard." Try to make it more profound.

I'll start with one.

Samus has some nasty shield break setups and can do them from a very safe distance. She also has a neat and somewhat reliable way of meteoring out of a shield break if the conditions are right. Personally I think the meteor isn't as reliable as it should be, but the rate she can get shield breaks is incredibly exciting. I think that people aren't highlighting that fact enough and that high level Samus play will eventually turn her into a trap character as opposed to the pure zoner people seem to label her as.

Go ahead and give it a go.

Ganon's edgeguarding is very good & surpsrisingly versatile.
Every aerial he has has some use off stage:
Nair: strong, lasts forever, probably his 2nd best aerial offstage after Uair.
Fair: long lasting, meaty hitbox, strong as hell.
Bair: probably his least useful one offstage but it's still decent for stage spiking & it ends quickly enough to not be too big of a commitment.
Dair: One of the strongest spikes in the game, big hitbox, sourspot will usually KO too.
Uair: Fast as hell, strong, ends quickly, lasts forever, tipman is terrifying for most characters & it outright murders some recoveries.

His biggest problem is that he lacks the airspeed to go super deep but he can usually go low enough because all of his aerials end quickly & up-B still gives decent height.

 

[Megamang]

Doc's kit is actually pretty impressive. Bair is a much better Mario Bair, and can pretty much be a low to mid percent gameplan in itself since its AC and landing lag data makes it totally spammable, and it does crazy shieldstun for such a quick, meaty aerial. Dair is actually pretty good for highly damaged shields, some dodge beating situations, and its really good offstage. It has a landing hitbox that makes it a little safer than it would otherwise be, and you can mixup stuff like the hitbox timing being off into a sudden landing hitbox to make shieldgrabbing or OOS punishing you a little harder. Fair is really damn strong, and will kill confirm from dthrow on some of the cast, and it happens to be (like most character specific confirms really) on the better characters for it to be, light fastfallers.

Differences don't all swing against him either. His cape doesn't do the little stall, which I guess sucks for his recovery but makes it way more usable in my opinion. You can drop beneath the stage in a decent area and slap someone with it, gimping many characters. And, for a solid mixup from the cape. you have Doc Tornado to do some gimps. Unfortunately, actually hitting Doc Tornado makes it basically random if you get the button presses that let you raise, or they can't come in during hitlag, or something... but sometimes you land Doc Tornado and plummet to your death while they survive. That sucks. The falling cape lets you use it as a landing option, which is a really deadly one against someone firing a close range projectile, since you'll hit them with their own (multiplied!) projectile and the cape, and then have a nice advantage state while they are in cooldown facing backwards...

But hey, its really nice at the ledge.

While mobility alone makes Mario's usmash one of the best smashes, most of the great properties exist in Dr's. Also, its hitbox is better and sends them back offstage if you are facing centre stage in a stage get up situation... or something. Its also extremely powerful, like... extremely.

Nair is a fun tool. It is also worse for breaking out ASAP and protecting you, and doing optimal damage when it does, but its better for lingering hitbox applications. You can read a late spotdodge or follow an airdodge (if they aren't going too fast) and get the strong hit. I also like it for shield pressure stuff, since it does more damage and stun than people would expect if they forget its the reverse nair. Rising FH Bair -> Nair at peak of jump -> Fastfall so you hit with the late hitbox before you land -> Up B is a string that will break shields... and you can get out of it, of course, but... it just, fits in Doc's gameplan. I mean, you'll hit your share of Bair, rising or otherwise. If you hit a rising, full hop bair, you can drop a nair on their shield late and it will be at the breaking point with up B. Its pretty sweet.

He does a lot of damage in general actually, since its not like Mario lacks in damage and the boost just pushes it into almost ridiculous. He also kills pretty damn well, and has a kill confirm in some really important MUs. Otherwise, he still has the smashes of Mario, + hitbox + power, gimps, Doc Tornado kills, up B (which I didn't go into, its great!), Basically anything at high enough damage since he is powerful, like a mini-ike syndrome.

Wow, I basically turned a simple paragraph thing into a wall of text, but I like typing and if someone wants to read it I think I hit some good Doc points, its not complete.

 

[TriTails]

Doc's Sheet not stalling him is actually a damn big boost from Mario's. Both are quite scary moves if they manage to flip you around, and Doc's Sheet simply does miles better in that. Not only the flip turns them backwards and reverse their controls for a second or so, but you can use the confusion time to your advantage (A CPU Doc managed to aerial Sheet + back hit of D-smash'd me once. Pretty sure there are more 'combos' in there).

Obvious, but it's also better for gimping and reflecting projectiles. You fall and have the hitbox go down with you. Can't say the same for Mario's.

It also can wavebounce, effective for mixups, something Cape can't do. You could be jumping away from your opponent, then you suddenly rocket back to 'em and give them a slap dose of dizzyness that may convert into an advantage.

Recovering, you can't B-reverse it like Mario can to have your back facing the stage and start spamming B-air, but it's kinda an aerial in itself????

It's pretty slow to come out (frame 12), but the reward is pretty fair when you can still move freely instead of levitating for a second. Honestly, Mario with this Side-B is probably gonna be a monster.

 

[Yikarur]

I think Mr.R's Sheik MU Chart is overall pretty on-point.
There are probably some more even MU's but overall Sheik is still a very dominant character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm not the only one who thinks Mr r's matchup spread looks pretty accurate?

Rosalina could be a bit closer to even and I'm not sure if Sheik's advantage against Mewtwo is that great anymore. I'd also be extremely careful about how I'd rate Sheik vs Lucario. The rest looks good.

Comparing that spread to the nonsene ESAM keeps spouting is almost sacrilegious imo.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I like ESAM but Pikachu having 3 bad matchups with like only Mario, G&W and Ness is like... no.

 

[Deleted member]

You know...

Since we're talking about low tiers...

Let's try something...

Take @Deathcarter 's list.



That's a lot of characters.

Let's try and say one positive thing about each of these characters and discuss whether that positive is given enough credit. Just don't make it brain dead like " Ganondorf hits really hard." Try to make it more profound.

I'll start with one.

Samus has some nasty shield break setups and can do them from a very safe distance. She also has a neat and somewhat reliable way of meteoring out of a shield break if the conditions are right. Personally I think the meteor isn't as reliable as it should be, but the rate she can get shield breaks is incredibly exciting. I think that people aren't highlighting that fact enough and that high level Samus play will eventually turn her into a trap character as opposed to the pure zoner people seem to label her as.

Go ahead and give it a go.

I'll talk about my former main, King Dedede!

Even with his significant flaws, be still has some really neat stuff I want to emphasize on.

Dedede legit never ****in' dies. Considering he's the third heaviest character in the game it's natural, bit he's outfitted with the second fastest falling speed. While it makes him easier to combo it gives him very impressive vertical endurance, and his horizontal longevity only loses out to and . Him having the potential to live so long allows him to make effective use of Rage, and nobody wants to get smacked by a fresh bair or down smash when he's in that state.

Another obvious one is his recovery. Even though his air speed is the worst in the game and he has low jumps, the amount of them and Super Dedede Jump's great horizontal and vertical distance save it. Plus, it has super armor on the rising portion. If a Dedede recovers low while being safe with his jumps, he's definitely making it back. Most superheavies wish they could have a recovery like that.

Dedede has the luxury of being the only superheavy with a sex kick (unless 's counts?), and it's an overall solid move. Comes out frame 7 and the landing lag isnt too bad either. Down throw > fair > nair (more of a mixup, but a good one) does a hella meaty 30%, and down throw > bair does 22%. THAT'S SOME GOOD **** RIGHT THERE. Besides that, it's sourspot can lead for followups into up tilt at low to mid percents, and potentially up air at high percents for the kill. It's pretty much a second down throw for him after his down throw stops combo'ing. It's great. The move also has killing potential at high percents as well if it's the sweetspot.

Down smash is a great move. It's a semispike, covers rolls and standard/roll ledge getup, and it's Dedede's most reliable kill move overall. It's decently fast coming out at frame 14. Another move of his that shines is his back air. Its startup is a bit slow, but it's Dedede's main spacing tool. Does 16%, autocancels out of a shorthop and is safe on shield if spaced properly. It's nowhere near amazing as his Brawl bair, but it's gucci nonetheless. Up air is also great. It bypasses the ledge and hits opponent, can protect Dedede when he's recovering to fend off edgeguarders, hard to escape and is a good kill move.

Let's talk about Gordos now, then I'll stop gushing over his positive traits. Gordos are good at doing so many things. Gordo Toss at point-blank does 24%, definitely not something you'd want to get hit by even if it will not be a common occurrence. For Gordos themselves, the fact they can be angled allows for creative use of them in neutral and give them leeway as very good tools for harassing people offstage. Since Gordos get weaker after each bounce, early Gordos have higher KOing potential while ones on their second or last bounce are better at extending followups. Really shows how much thought they put into the move even if it can be easy to reflect.

The fact they stick to the ledge too is also something fierce, considering if opponents get hit by the Gordo they are either stage spiked or popped up right in front of you for a free punish.

Up-angled Gordo in general is really versatile in my opinion. It gives Dedede's opponents an actual way to carefully approach Dedede since it's akin to a wall... and what that damn thing does at the ledge. Oh man. If the opponent does jumping ledge getup against an up-angled Gordo, they're eating an fsmash or bair for that. Throwing down-angled Gordos onto the stage when coming from below is also ridiculously hard to punish and makes it safer for Dedede to get back to the stage considering his poor ledge getup options.

So yeah, that's all I gotta say. I really liked this idea, Swamp Sensei ! Hopefully this line of discussion continues, putting more light on some of the more neglected characters in the metagame is something this thread needed to be honest.

 

[Jalil]

Idk if this is already known by Corrin mains but their dragon fang shot can combo from nair or fair at around 65% near the ledge. You won't be able to get a full charge before falling out of range but you get enough to kill. Dfs also combo's from fair at a lil higher percents.
Reminds me of zss's nair-->flipkick but in reverse and less affected by di. If you think they'll di up to avoid dfs you can just go for it earlier. It's not hard to react if they di left or right either.
Edit: nevermind. It's already known

 

[Megamang]

Jigglypuff is legitimately scary in some situations, especially last stock situations. Airdodge -rest and crouch - rest are two of the best reactionary punishes available, and punish some of the strangest things easily. Someone charges a smash vs jiggly and they can quickly regret it.

Her great airspeed and nair allows her to chase really well. In general, nair is a really great and really fun move. You can find yourself nairing, forcing a roll... so you go and falling nair after them. Then nair knocks them down on its last frame, so you startup-nair their getup option. Then you nair them offstage for a gimp. Her mobility in the air is pretty good, even if we often state its lack of importance for a few reasons, she still does the quick in the air thing well. So when you add in airdodge, she gets scary. If she airdodges past you and you're in a commitment, you'll get rested pretty damn early. Also, while the airdodging is committal, it isn't a big commitment for jigs. She can maneuver the entire time, so she is able to choose where she comes out. She can come out with nair too, or fair if she needs the range, which means she can airdodge pretty damn freely.

Also, after they get scared of airdodge nair/fair and start shielding your airdodge, airdodge pound can rekt them. If anyone doesn't respect the hitbox or extreme duration of Pound, they get popped up for a lot of damage and probable air followups.

If there is anyone out there really committed to bringing her to competitive play (mains of other games notwithstanding, since they naturally learn towards how they would play puff in their game and haven't truly put hours into smash 4 puff labbage) and they focus on landing rests.... You could see some upsets. She can take a set at warp speed. And if you can't kill her at 0, an early rest can give her a much needed lead pretty easily. Otherwise, if you don't have a top tier recovery she can probably take the game at any point. I believe this character will come out and make some small waves in the future of smash, when everyone is better at their main than they are now, and, more importantly, when more hours have been devoted to Puff.


But, the other day I played Puff against Greninja... Jeez. She needs a projectile =B

 

[Smog Frog]

has some neat combos out of his jab, a f5 move with a faf of 23. at lower %, you can get jab->double edge dance, jab->grab, or jab->jab. at mid %, you can still get jab->side b, but you also get jab->nair. at around kill %, you can get jab->blazer(though i've heard you can di out-is it true?).

also double edge dance in general is a great move. a f6 whiff punish tool that can also be used to pressure shields(a lot of his moves are in the general area of -1 on shield). it's not as good as dancing blade because of sword layout(they often get pushed into the tip), and because of this it will likely never kill.

nair 1 is a great kill setup. at around 100% it will start confirming into dsmash/utilt, and it's very safe considering it sets up into these moves. also at around mid % it will confirm into double edge dance.

 

[HoSmash4]

I think Mr.R's Sheik MU Chart is overall pretty on-point.
There are probably some more even MU's but overall Sheik is still a very dominant character.

I'm not the only one who thinks Mr r's matchup spread looks pretty accurate?

Rosalina could be a bit closer to even and I'm not sure if Sheik's advantage against Mewtwo is that great anymore. I'd also be extremely careful about how I'd rate Sheik vs Lucario. The rest looks good.

Comparing that spread to the nonsene ESAM keeps spouting is almost sacrilegious imo.

Yeah honestly I think Mr.R's sheik matchup chart is pretty representative of top level sheik play. Matchup ratios will change as the skill level changes. I dont agree with Ness/Falcon being blowouts though. I also think Ramin underestimate's Sheik's ability to feed rage and hence be a victim to Super Rage Bros 4 shenanigans, but Ramin's results post-sheik nerf have been pretty much the same as before the nerf. One main thing about post-patch sheik is she is much less likely to overextend trying to get the grab. Retreating fair still is ridiculously safe

 

[Nemesis561]

I don't really post much and read instead but Since I know nobody will talk about and it's going to bother me, I guess I will.

The koopalings advantaged state is absurd.. Juggling with aerials, especially up air is a breeze. F air and back air are good moves as well , good disjointed moves to use during advantaged or neutral state as a spacing tool.

You can control neutral with mecha koopa as long as you use it intelligently and be smart about when you throw it out, as this move has massive end lag. Side b - down air- follow-ups - release mecca koopa is a hell of a combo at early percents.

Edge guarding with the koopa lings is another big strength. Doing Up b and having the cart slide offstage is a huge tool against characters that have linear recoveries that hug up near the wall, etc. You can condition your opponent by laying explosive carts by the edge and reading a roll on stage and using jump cancel up smash or f smash to cover the roll.

F smash is a great tool to throw out in neutral sometimes similar to meta knight. Can get you cheap kills or induce baits which you can punish.

Side b to up b is a nice confirm too that works on all characters at different percent s

That's all I got hopefully somebody can take tweeks mantle bowser jr isn't awful just needs representation

 

[Deleted member]

If there is anyone out there really committed to bringing her to competitive play (mains of other games notwithstanding, since they naturally learn towards how they would play puff in their game and haven't truly put hours into smash 4 puff labbage) and they focus on landing rests.... You could see some upsets.

There already is. @RDR7 has beaten Rango and Eldin, and almost took a set off ESAM. He does have a secondary but only pulls him out in like a couple MUs. Once he starts going to larger tournaments he'll make an impact for sure in my opinion. Currently he's ranked #7 on South Carolina PR but the new season is starting and he's supposed to be ranked much higher.

 

[jespoke]

I don't really post much and read instead but Since I know nobody will talk about and it's going to bother me, I guess I will.

The koopalings advantaged state is absurd.. Juggling with aerials, especially up air is a breeze. F air and back air are good moves as well , good disjointed moves to use during advantaged or neutral state as a spacing tool.

You can control neutral with mecha koopa as long as you use it intelligently and be smart about when you throw it out, as this move has massive end lag. Side b - down air- follow-ups - release mecca koopa is a hell of a combo at early percents.

Edge guarding with the koopa lings is another big strength. Doing Up b and having the cart slide offstage is a huge tool against characters that have linear recoveries that hug up near the wall, etc. You can condition your opponent by laying explosive carts by the edge and reading a roll on stage and using jump cancel up smash or f smash to cover the roll.

F smash is a great tool to throw out in neutral sometimes similar to meta knight. Can get you cheap kills or induce baits which you can punish.

Side b to up b is a nice confirm too that works on all characters at different percent s

That's all I got hopefully somebody can take tweeks mantle bowser jr isn't awful just needs representation

The feel i get from is that a good player can do a bunch of stuff with the character, but the type of player that can bring out all those things can bring out even more in other characters and get a safer neutral/disadvantage in the same deal. (Think Void)

Cloud is not at all what i refer to, but i guess Tweek just found another heavy with amazing U-airs

 

[Nemesis561]

Good point, others can do what Jr can but safer. I think it shows though that if bowser Jr is low tier this game's balance is very good

 

[Jamurai]

Dabuz is the only top player to have posted a sensible and realistic MU spread IMO.

I think Ito's was almost spot-on, but (sadly) it is no longer relevant as it was made last patch.

Having a stigma is really detrimental to how people view a character. For example, only recently have I realised I've been unconsciously biased against Link just cause slow, meh CQC and was bad in Brawl. He's obviously not ~secret high tier!~ or anything but I've mostly thought of him at bottom 10 or 15 without question. People still rank Mii Sword as an "obvious" rock bottom character which is a view about a year out of date (I agree that 1111 Brawler is relatively awful though).

The only characters I'm actually confident ranking as bottom tier are . Having a bottom 10 discussion is kinda pointless (as has already been stated).

EDIT: Btw I would talk a bit about Doc, but he's not low tier.

 

[Nobie]

I consider Palutena to be a similar character to Bayonetta. Obviously one is much, much better than the other, but they're both mobile characters that are designed to "cheat" in certain respects, only Bayo gets more reward off of her breaking of the rules.

Palutena has I think the only truly unblockable attack in the game that isn't a grab (though others can break shields). The issue is that it does a piddly 5%, but imagine if it activated sooner or had an active hitbox for longer. Reflect would be absurd.

Think about other characters having to edgeguard Bayonetta. She has huge hitboxes on Witch Twist and After Burner Kick, which can make even trading with her difficult. Palutena can just back air and win, and that's a luxury few other characters even get close to.

Another odd property that appears with Palutena is that her ftilt can't rebound so even if it gets Witch TImed it stays out and can't get its hit "eaten" in order to set up for a Smash.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Great idea Swamp Sensei

For , there are alot of ATs that are overlooked by the community. Since it would take months to list them all, I'll just go over the core ones. (There is a great smashboards thread for this but whatever)

1. MALLC (Monado arts landing lag cancel)
This tech is well known all across the community. This tech nullifies shulk's landing lag by activating a monado art. It can be used for many things, such as making bair a very efficient spacing tool. Mallc also opens up one of the best landing options in the game: MALLC airdodge. Mallc airdodge can make shulk invincible as he is landing and activating a monado art can cancel the landing lag. This tech is shulk's bread and butter, and all shulk mains should master this tech.

Here is a video for MALLC. Credits to @erico9001

2. MABD (Monado arts buffer deactivation)

This advanced tech is also one of shulk's most important techniques. The way you preform this tech is to Press 3 times during an art activation to "buffer" the art, then input an action for run, walk, or jump. This tech can lead into insane combo strings and opens a new door of possibilites into shulk's gameplay.

EXAMPLES:

(Monado purge, this is true for characters like falcon, rob, limit break cloud, D3, and marth. Shulk mains are testing more)

https://gfycat.com/EqualEagerFlickertailsquirrel

DACUS is back Kappa

Credits to Getshulked. This is for the speed art

There are many more examples of this and combo strings that can be done, but these are the major ones.

Video for MABD:

Credits to @erico9001

3. B reversing monado Arts

This advanced technique can be done on the ground and in the air as well. B reversing can openup shulk's mixup game quite nicely. B reversing arts allows you to preform some crazy things, like mindgames. You can approach with an art, then wavebounce to trick your opponent. This can also be used for many applications of b reversing, such as grabbing after a b reverse.

B reverse tech:

Credits to apathy on youtube

Example:

https://gfycat.com/ChillyGrossBlacklab

Mace b reverses jump art near the end of the gfycat


These advanced techs are just a fraction of shulk's techs. You have to put insane effort for medium reward, which is one of shulk's downfalls. You have to put alot of time into him, and Cloud and corrin outclass shulk as swordsmen
Credits to the amazing Shulk discord and this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/i-ho...s-power-one-day-shulk-ats-tech-thread.393113/ for the information.
I hoped you all learned about shulk a little more!

 

[Plain Yogurt]

You know...

Since we're talking about low tiers...

Let's try something...

Take @Deathcarter 's list.



That's a lot of characters.

Let's try and say one positive thing about each of these characters and discuss whether that positive is given enough credit. Just don't make it brain dead like " Ganondorf hits really hard." Try to make it more profound.

I'll start with one.

Samus has some nasty shield break setups and can do them from a very safe distance. She also has a neat and somewhat reliable way of meteoring out of a shield break if the conditions are right. Personally I think the meteor isn't as reliable as it should be, but the rate she can get shield breaks is incredibly exciting. I think that people aren't highlighting that fact enough and that high level Samus play will eventually turn her into a trap character as opposed to the pure zoner people seem to label her as.

Go ahead and give it a go.

I'll gush a bit about , sure.

I sometimes feel like people underestimate just how insanely good a move Monado Arts is. We all know about his frame data and his range is less impressive than it used to be with the introductions of Cloud and Corrin + the recent FE range buffs, but let's just look at this move for a sec. It lets you:
-Cancel your landing lag that you otherwise almost always have, including that of your air dodge, into essentially a spotdodge you can act out of 6 frames in.
-Cancel your run or dash into any action, which if I'm not mistaken no other character can do.
-B-reverse/wavebounce yourself in the air without committing to a move, which has proven to be a pretty handy tool to have by characters like Diddy and ROB, if a bit more situational for Shulk.

And that's the activation alone. As for the arts themselves:
-Jump and Speed probably do the best job at letting Shulk play his keepaway game, letting him maneuver around his opponent to keep them at big-ass sword's length, while also letting him mix in grabs when necessary. Specific strengths include Jump turning nair into a combo starter into fair or bair (and sometimes uair and dair)at a fairly large percent range, while speed gives access to an excellent pivot game, including a pivot grab that slides pretty far when successful, as well as an nice juggle game with walking Utilt. And of course both of them aid Shulk's unfortunately linear recovery by making it a smidge less linear.
-Shield is of course an excellent rage battery, and its knockback resistance discourages low percent combos that characters that want to get in like to use. It also buffs your actual shield, increasing its strength and improving its regeneration (IIRC?). And your skid animation from a run is GREATLY reduced, though the usefulness of this is questionable with your slow-ass running speed.
-Buster helps Shulk work against shields a bit, not only by improving his safety by up to 3 frames (if I've done my math right nair is +5 vs shield drop in the most optimal situations. Even without said situations that's pretty darn good.), but also improving his reward off of grab. A pummel into backthrow does 20% or so and at mid percents sets up a back slash. And of course otherwise you do a truckload of damage. A bit camp-able, but excellent if you've already got advantage.
-Smash is horrendous and easily camp-able in neutral sure, but if you've knocked the guy offstage at 90-100% they HAVE to respect that art on the way back. DThrow and BThrow become kill options and Shulk's ledge coverage game isn't too shabby thanks to his range. Not to mention the option of hopping off and fairing/air slashing them in the face if they don't expect it. And if they manage to get by you? Turn it off. Suddenly its awful downsides are pretty much non-existent.

And to round things out, he can buffer the deactivation of the arts to use their benefits in other ways:
-Canceling Jump from UThrow can be a mixup into Uair if you read DI properly.
-Canceling speed lets you chase you opponent from a throw without the damage reduction and also lets you do a fancy far-sliding up smash.
-Canceling buster lets you confirm a falling nair into an FSmash/Air slash at certain percents.

Long story short, Monado Arts is a damn good move and it's the real reason you should give Shulk at least the time of day.

Aww phooey Valak beat me to some of it. Oh well.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

I'll gush a bit about , sure.

I sometimes feel like people underestimate just how insanely good a move Monado Arts is. We all know about his frame data and his range is less impressive than it used to be with the introductions of Cloud and Corrin + the recent FE range buffs, but let's just look at this move for a sec. It lets you:
-Cancel your landing lag that you otherwise almost always have, including that of your air dodge, into essentially a spotdodge you can act out of 6 frames in.
-Cancel your run or dash into any action, which if I'm not mistaken no other character can do.
-B-reverse/wavebounce yourself in the air without committing to a move, which has proven to be a pretty handy tool to have by characters like Diddy and ROB, if a bit more situational for Shulk.

And that's the activation alone. As for the arts themselves:
-Jump and Speed probably do the best job at letting Shulk play his keepaway game, letting him maneuver around his opponent to keep them at big-*** sword's length, while also letting him mix in grabs when necessary. Specific strengths include Jump turning nair into a combo starter into fair or bair (and sometimes uair and dair)at a fairly large percent range, while speed gives access to an excellent pivot game, including a pivot grab that slides pretty far when successful, as well as an nice juggle game with walking Utilt. And of course both of them aid Shulk's unfortunately linear recovery by making it a smidge less linear.
-Shield is of course an excellent rage battery, and its knockback resistance discourages low percent combos that characters that want to get in like to use. It also buffs your actual shield, increasing its strength and improving its regeneration (IIRC?). And your skid animation from a run is GREATLY reduced, though the usefulness of this is questionable with your slow-*** running speed.
-Buster helps Shulk work against shields a bit, not only by improving his safety by up to 3 frames (if I've done my math right nair is +5 vs shield drop in the most optimal situations. Even without said situations that's pretty darn good.), but also improving his reward off of grab. A pummel into backthrow does 20% or so and at mid percents sets up a back slash. And of course otherwise you do a truckload of damage. A bit camp-able, but excellent if you've already got advantage.
-Smash is horrendous and easily camp-able in neutral sure, but if you've knocked the guy offstage at 90-100% they HAVE to respect that art on the way back. DThrow and BThrow become kill options and Shulk's ledge coverage game isn't too shabby thanks to his range. Not to mention the option of hopping off and fairing/air slashing them in the face if they don't expect it. And if they manage to get by you? Turn it off. Suddenly its awful downsides are pretty much non-existent.

And to round things out, he can buffer the deactivation of the arts to use their benefits in other ways:
-Canceling Jump from UThrow can be a mixup into Uair if you read DI properly.
-Canceling speed lets you chase you opponent from a throw without the damage reduction and also lets you do a fancy far-sliding up smash.
-Canceling buster lets you confirm a falling nair into an FSmash/Air slash at certain percents.

Long story short, Monado Arts is a damn good move and it's the real reason you should give Shulk at least the time of day.

Aww phooey Valak beat me to some of it. Oh well.

Jump and shield are the ultimate camping tools, and great post!

 

[ARISTOS]

I think suffers from the fact that a ton of losing MUs are meta- namely, he suffers against rushdown pretty badly. Because of that, he's not really too useable.

However, I think he does well against the rest of the cast