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That's what my post was. It was just a big sarcarsm.
Fox with Samus' zair would be absolutely bonkers. It would be beautiful.
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Well...no set link, but Jonny Westside (I don't really know who the best Samus main so I'm just going by the Wiki page) got 49th at Paragon LA, 7th at 2GGT ESAM Saga, and 9th at 2GGT FOW Saga. He has wins over Mr. Concon, Zenyou, and Scizor.
There's a best moves thread, but it kinda died.
I don't want to imagine that. That would mean Bowser's Showtime would be true on every character for a percent range 80% wide.
I dunno Jiggs is really butt
Corrin goes pretty evenly vs the other swordsmen. The match ups are either slightly for or against Corrin. Her ground range is the best in the game, and as such she can out range and out frame data pretty much any swordsman on the ground ( In grounded CQB some swordsmen beat her though). Cloud on the ground though can beat her due to his mobility, limit, and better CQB. In the air though other swordsmen can beat out Corrin is some ways. A good chunk of the swordsmen slightly out range her excluding her B-air. Yet, her frame data in the air is generally the best out of the swordsmen. So she can preemptively throw a N-air and get in their space to win aerial challenges, or you can out range them with b-air. Also her combo / juggle game is also probably one of if not the best among the swordsmen ( Cloud juggles better, but Corrin combos better). Side note her option coverage from on the stage is pretty god like as well. From what Ive seen on the Corrin boards she rated to be low top 15, or top 20 character. So a high high tier, or low top tier (around 11- 12th some say, we don't thinks shes top 10 material). Though I've praised her allot, she does still have some problems. Chiefly her low mobility, lack of a combo throw, and her slightly bellow average recovery. All those do hinder her, and do open her to counter play, but her pros greatly out weight her cons.Corrin IMO can't possibly be lower than high-mid tier. When you have crazy disjoints that stay out for a long time, a useful projectile, insane killing power (tipper F-Smash, Dragon Lunge), a difficult to gimp recovery (albeit lacking in range), good frame data in terms of attack speed, one of the strongest counters in the game, AND kill throws, you are pretty much the complete package. All of these make up for lack of mobility in spades, though I'd like if people more familiar with Corrin could chime in on how Corrin does against other swordsmen.
Speaking of swords, Abadango mentioned in his AMA that he considers Roy EDIT: his least favorite character to play (whoops read that wrong before).
Fox Is Openly Deceptive I noticed in your Link down throw ratings that quite a few high tier characters are in there. Do you think that Link is better than a lot of people perceive, or is he so lacking in other areas (like getting the grab) that even the reward he gets from down throw isn't enough to make up for it?
This is extremely optimistic.
MR R made a sheik match up chart
There's definitely a bottom 10-15 or so who have fewer tools relative to the rest of the cast, but they're generally not garbage. If I had to make a general outline of low tier, I'd probably list in no particular order
as generally lowish characters who struggle against a good chunk of the relevant cast instead of just a few MUs.
What about Greninja? And how does Robin beat Shulk?
I think Kirby murders the rest of your selection in results, but otherwise these seem to be rounding out the cast. At some point Samus might rejoin if the buffs were not enough, as may something we are overrating here that we can't predict.There's definitely a bottom 10-15 or so who have fewer tools relative to the rest of the cast, but they're generally not garbage. If I had to make a general outline of low tier, I'd probably list in no particular order
Kirby and Mac are kind of borderline here, and are probably interchangeable with Doc or whoever is just above them. The exact rank of some of these characters are pretty fuzzy. Kirby strikes me as kind of bad but has some unique properties that make him effective as situational anti-meta character who's easy to pick up and play, and so is effective when used selectively as a counterpick character. He's pretty lackluster overall though.
I don't know, theory wise I'd be inclined to agree with you about Bowser Jr. being bottom 10, but Tweek's results with this character were too good even BEFORE all his worst matchups were nerfed. Look at this result list and realize that Tweek was going solo-Bowser Jr. for the majority of it. KTAR XVII is when he made the complete switch-over. He knew something the rest of us did not.
are actually decent. But I can't argue that they're objectively not bottom 15. It's just how the numbers end up working out, and it's kind of frustrating.
- Loses to some common characters in but having good MUs against is pretty neat. I feel not losing to Diddy will be very important in the coming months. I see him as a bit anti-meta.- Has really benefited from Sheik nerfs and the general disappearance of Pika.- IMO, top 10. I think the radius in which this character gets to dominate is massive, kinda shuts down tons of characters for free. Too many Corrin mains press too many buttons. is the only REALLY bad character, and she isn't irredeemable (don't want to see a good Puff though)
Here's a writeup.
Eh, I don't think it's out of a desire to compare Smash 4 to Melee directly. Either way, I think the point is that most characters have some sort of use. Low tier Kirby goes even with or beats top tier Fox. Shulk does decently against Cloud. So on and so forth. Doesn't mean every character is viable - doubly so if we mean "solo-viable." But it's nice to know that there exists no character that is so terrible that they can literally do nothing. There are poor matchups, there is a bottom 10, etc. But for a game with nearly 60 characters? The balance is pretty good.
that's because ranking by numbers is next to useless in this gameBottom 15 is just as urky as the high/mid tier is for me. I think that
I feel like sure, there bottom 15 technically but their not bottom tier to me. Does that make any sense?
Except that's what we've been doing, and look where that's gotten us.
Well yeah. There are definitely characters in this game with too many realistically unwinnable top level MUs. It's not unreasonable to think a Ness main could get a nice bracket draw and avoid top Rosas on their way to winning a national, but it is unreasonable to think a top Ganon could wind up avoiding top Bayos, Sheiks, Clouds, Rosas, Sonics, Villagers, Greninjas, Pikas, etc. and win a national. Being better than Melee/Brawl bottom tiers is great. Being viable at a local and regional level is great. But there are still some significantly underpowered characters in this game, some of which may be improved in the future, but some will likely not, and we need to come to terms with that.
Kind of. Zard is definitely not trash and is noticeably better than the bottom 5 or so. But he's still bottom 15 because there still aren't all that many characters he's better than.
Replace Shulk with Link and I'd pretty much agree. I feel like there's no getting around that Link's low tier. He may be one of those "scary in the right hands" characters like Bowser Jr. and Little Mac but his shortcomings are still pretty big. .There's definitely a bottom 10-15 or so who have fewer tools relative to the rest of the cast, but they're generally not garbage. If I had to make a general outline of low tier, I'd probably list in no particular order
Having a lower weight, faster fall speed, and/or slower aerial-acceleration will all contribute towards Link's grab game being a serious threat, and it just so happens to be that many higher tiers conveniently fit this formula. It absolutely makes those MU's more manageable/favourable. When you're already susceptible to dying pretty early, the damage coming out of such a high priority move kinda sucks.
The fact that Link has had multiple people getting results with him lately has me thinking he might be around the top of low tier at least.
No. Link is pretty solid overall. He's got too many tools, way more than Shulk does. Link hits harder while also having better frame data, especially in terms of endlag. He does get bodied too hard up close to be in the upper half of the cast, but at least he has a semi-fast Nair that can help him get out of trouble. Shulk has nothing except Vision, which has crazy lag if it fails. Link is on the lower end of mid tier, which is more than I can convince myself of regarding Shulk.
seem to be the characters considered most often as the "low tiers" of this game and that's already 17 characters! It just comes off as pointless semantics.
's mu vs the various high/top tiers. and loses somewhat vs . And she beats,and. Do any of you guys have any other suggestions or mu analysis vs top and high tiers
In neutral I feel like Greninja vs Shulk is pretty even.
