Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[falln]

falln I think it goes without saying that I am curious of your placement of Bowser in the middle of D-Tier, almost at the bottom. Some of the characters that are higher up, like G&W, have a losing matchup to Bowser. Was there not much supportive evidence for Bowser to be higher?

EDIT: It strikes me as odd even moreso considering Donkey Kong's placement. I am not arguing Bowser is better but I will argue that Bowser is not far behind DK, so the huge gap between the two gives more reason for me to be curious.

dk is much more formidable in neutral stance due to his tilts and movement with back air. he also has a much earlier + generous window for his throw kills than bowser. bowser gets all the perks of being tossed around like the heavy weight with a nonexistent disadvantage state but his comeback mechanics are not even close enough vs disciplined play

 

[LancerStaff]

Consider Dark Pit is playable both in the story and in the multiplayer, you can get him to use those weapons, so yeah.

I'm saying it would of made more sense if it was the Crusher Arm, a weapon he does use, or perhaps the Taurus Arm because it's strength is similar to Upperdash.

Dark Pit uses Electroshock Arm because a dev programmed it into the game for some random reason, and so Sakurai and Namco decided to give it to him when the decision to have Dark Pit standalone was made. There's really no canon basis for it.

It gets to join Pikachu's Skull Bash, Jigglypuff's Rollout, and Luigi Missile as a move that was seemingly created on the fly and added on with little to no regard for canon or mechanical consistency.




That reminds me, why has Puff's Rollout not been adjusted to be like its canon counterpart yet? It would have made for an interesting move if it effectively defied the Stale Move Queue, and actually got stronger and stronger for each successful hit in a row. Make the first Rollout hit pitifully weak to the point she can be punished on hit if you need to, but give it similar startup to Sonic's quickest Spin Charge, and I think this would have been a wonderful move. After a few successful hits, she would have two trump cards to play with to punish you for getting hit by it so many times.

Doubt it was just randomly put in... Probably was a custom move before Dark Pit became his own thing.

On that note, Pikachu will probably be able to use Skull Bash in Sun and Moon after transfering from RBY.

hi guys. i noticed that both this tier list (and the MU based list that me and ito made a few weeks back) had generated some discussion and also differs in a lot of ways from what the internet consensus for several characters. specifically, i rate luigi/marth/lucina/kirby/palutena quite highly and wario/bowser/ike quite low. i'm not trying to get sucked into pages of debate but i am happy to give a bit of reasoning if someone would like a specific insight. i'll check the next page or so and i've also been answering questions on my twitter. this type of thing is a lot of fun for me and i promise i'm not as biased as some of these lists look.

I'll bite... Why are the Pits so low? Lucina a whole tier above them especially seems really off, since there's not much she has over them.

 

[zzmorg82]

Switching topics: who do we see as the top 3 characters in the game (and why)? After the patch, we've all seemed to gather our own opinions and I'm interested on what we think.

In my opinion, the top 3 are Bayo, Rosa, and Cloud; with Sheik and ZSS right behind them.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Not disputing that Bowser was better than Donkey Kong. Sorry if I came off that way. My argument was that the general consensus was that Donkey Kong was a few tier spots above Bowser, not a few tiers.

If you are referring to Bowser's landing difficulties when you discuss 'comeback mechanics' then I would be inclined to agree, but I don't think Bowser would remain in D-Tier. I suppose it would be vain to bring up MU information since, with all due respect, you seem to have a stark contrast in certain MU spreads than most others do.

 

[falln]

I'll bite... Why are the Pits so low? Lucina a whole tier above them especially seems really off, since there's not much she has over them.

in several ways yea they're pretty similar in that they outrange a lot of people and can hold their ground quite well. but lucina/marth's range -specifically the arc in which they swing on several of their moves - allows them more versatility over the pits. they are less prone to blind spots with a better recovery (specifically with regards to safety around the edge) and i also value marth/lucina's edgeguarding game very highly

 

[HeavyLobster]

You think that DK's neutral game is far better than Bowser's until you get swallowed by the black hole that is Bowser's pivot grab. In reality there's not all that much difference between them. Bowser's better on the ground and has a couple of amazing tools but not much else. DK's tools are more varied but less overwhelming.

 

[falln]

ultimately the difference in my eyes that really sets the 2 apart is that bowser's tools are more limited to *read* or *punish* whereas dk can more effectively/safely pressure or box you out with his tilts and other moves. bowser's tools in neutral are too reliant on the opponent extending into bowser. that's the extent of my opinion on the char

 

[Appledees]

falln

Any reason for Mega's placement along with Ike and Greninja on that list cause personally I think those characters are honestly on the same level of power along with similar results (though slightly higher in some levels) I'm kinda curious why you rate Megaman so high but those two pretty low on your list.

 

[Y2Kay]

falln Why did you put greninja so low in regards to everyone else? He has a really good matchup spread, good all around abilities bar frame data and OOS options, and has some pretty good results.

But then I see characters like Shulk and Marcina above him, and then I'm just confused.

 

[C0rvus]

I'll bite... Why are the Pits so low? Lucina a whole tier above them especially seems really off, since there's not much she has over them.

I find myself saying this sort of thing often enough, but I don't think that's how tier lists necessarily work. It's sort of a vacuum comparison. It's more about results and MU spreads, and then theory. Marcina has the best walk speed in the game and a set of amazing tilts to match. In terms of pure spacing, they are better than the Pits. Lucina is a weird case where she cannot be too far from Marth but I struggle to consider her good, despite the fact that I think Marth is quite strong. Friggin clones, man.

 

[Ninety]

Hey falln . Could you expound on your reasoning on putting Marth and Lucina above Ike, Greninja and the Pits? (not that watching greninja mains' reactions isn't funny or anything, mind you)

 

[falln]

falln Why did you put greninja so low in regards to everyone else? He has a really good matchup spread, good all around abilities bar frame data and OOS options, and has some pretty good results.

But then I see characters like Shulk and Marcina above him, and then I'm just confused.

falln

Any reason for Mega's placement along with Ike and Greninja on that list cause personally I think those characters are honestly on the same level of power along with similar results (though slightly higher in some levels) I'm kinda curious why you rate Megaman so high but those two pretty low on your list.

I think gren is quite good actually. It's more that I rate Shulk and Lucina very highly compared to most than me undervaluing gren. same goes for ike. i think ike embodies a lot of what it means to be a solid mid tier

MM's zoning is criminally underdeveloped. being able to consistently maintain the proper lateral/vertical spacing with pellets shuts down so many options on so many characters and while yea the reward is pretty low i think as conditioning and zoning tools the lemons are basically just too good.

Hey Falln. Could you expound on your reasoning on putting Marth and Lucina above Ike, Greninja and the Pits? (not that watching greninja mains' reactions isn't funny or anything, mind you)

i talked a bit about marth/lucina over the angels a couple posts ago. they can zone out even a lot of high tiers and have some of the best edgeguarding in the business. they do fall to characters with strong dash -> shield and dash -> roll like mario but otherwise they are very good at keeping other characters out and maintaining advantage states

 

[sedrf]

So how do you feel bayo would be in the future?
Also do you think the bayos from europe and japan might make waves at apex,ceo,goml,eglx,etc.

 

[bc1910]

Top 3 is probably Bayo, Cloud and Sheik, with Diddy right behind.

ZSS and MK have lost a lot with their crazy advantage states being toned down. ZSS is still solid and probably rounds out top 5 but I don't see her as top 3 material. MK is significantly weaker.

Rosalina is held back by her MK and Cloud MUs IMO, while Mario lacks some of the incredible strengths and positive MUs of the (few) characters above him, but those two are 6th and 7th I'd say.

Hey falln . Could you expound on your reasoning on putting Marth and Lucina above Ike, Greninja and the Pits? (not that watching greninja mains' reactions isn't funny or anything, mind you)

Barely any Greninja mains have even commented, so I don't know what you've been watching.

I think you overestimate how much we care when someone occasionally underrates him, when for the most part he's rightfully well-regarded now.

 

[C0rvus]

I think gren is quite good actually. It's more that I rate Shulk and Lucina very highly compared to most than me undervaluing gren. same goes for ike. i think ike embodies a lot of what it means to be a solid mid tier

MM's zoning is criminally underdeveloped. being able to consistently maintain the proper lateral/vertical spacing with pellets shuts down so many options on so many characters and while yea the reward is pretty low i think as conditioning and zoning tools the lemons are basically just too good.

Where do you see Shulk developing in order to be placed that high? As is, he seems to struggle with defensive play and he more or less has to play at mid range. That's a very generous placing for him, and while I don't necessarily disagree, what made you rate him so high? Do you see something that others don't? I know of many Shulk players who have switched off of him or simply think he's not good or worth the effort.

I understand your placings of Luigi and Kirby based on your reasoning, but in that case, zoners sound like they shouldn't be able to do their job. Do you foresee projectile-based characters to fall in effectiveness as we move towards optimization?

Sorry for the questions, I just wanted to jump on the opportunity to ask a high level player who also seems to enjoy theory what they think. This sort of stuff is fun to think about.

My only real confusion is your placing of Rosalina, when she has clear losing matchups. Arguably more so than her neighbors, Bayonetta, Cloud, and Diddy.

 

[falln]

i don't see bayo as different from any other top tier. she is without a doubt a very effective noob stomp but i do think by this summer's nationals the top players will have understood and carry out the discipline needed to capitalize on bayo's weaknesses (of which she has several). i can't speak for the rest of the community though because it seems to be a lot more popular to try and haze people out of playing the char within most regions than it does to learn how she works.

 

[LancerStaff]

in several ways yea they're pretty similar in that they outrange a lot of people and can hold their ground quite well. but lucina/marth's range -specifically the arc in which they swing on several of their moves - allows them more versatility over the pits. they are less prone to blind spots with a better recovery (specifically with regards to safety around the edge) and i also value marth/lucina's edgeguarding game very highly

Blindspots? Eh... Trying to hit somebody especially above or below you with Marcina's Fair doesn't seem to work out often. It's not Ike's Fair. Meanwhile the hitboxes on, oh say, Pit's Uair are much better placed then theirs.

I really think you're missing something with Pit's recovery. Up B doesn't have a hitbox, yeah, but unlike Marcina you don't need to fly back to the ledge predictably between how you can angle it and the multiple jumps. Side B's armor does most of the work anyway...

I find myself saying this sort of thing often enough, but I don't think that's how tier lists necessarily work. It's sort of a vacuum comparison. It's more about results and MU spreads, and then theory. Marcina has the best walk speed in the game and a set of amazing tilts to match. In terms of pure spacing, they are better than the Pits. Lucina is a weird case where she cannot be too far from Marth but I struggle to consider her good, despite the fact that I think Marth is quite strong. Friggin clones, man.

Marth's raw spacing is probably better then Pit's because he can kill with it... Lucina, I don't think so. Their top walking speed is the best in the game, while their walking acceleration is garbage. Since acceleration is a rate of + X every frame and not a percent of the top speed that makes Pit's walk more effective for spacing. Actually, most swordsmen have low or bottom tier walking acceleration if only so their spacing isn't absolutely ridiculous, and I believe Pit's the only exception.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

i don't see bayo as different from any other top tier. she is without a doubt a very effective noob stomp but i do think by this summer's nationals the top players will have understood and carry out the discipline needed to capitalize on bayo's weaknesses (of which she has several). i can't speak for the rest of the community though because it seems to be a lot more popular to try and haze people out of playing the char within most regions than it does to learn how she works.

lol whoops had a diff tierlist in tab lol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Interesting.

falln How much weight did you put in results on this list? That's where a lot of the uh, oddities are coming from. (Shulk effectively has none, Ike and MegaMan both have top 8 at MLG with their worst MUs getting improved since then with Ike fairly consistently overall popping up in top 8 in larger regional tournaments with good Ike mains and Scatt doing very impressive work, Kirby effectively has none, iStudying is getting results for Greninja, Marth is just starting to get some results but even then its more top 16 stuff than top 8 stuff, etc).

 

[Jalil]

Shulk and megaman definitely aren't better than greninja. Results and mu spread wise he should be above them (tho idk of the results thing is true for megaman). Even just playing greninja you can feel the difference in power.
That's your opinion tho

 

[TimidKitsune129]

falln

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Corrin and why you think they are that high, if you don't mind. :3

 

[falln]

Where do you see Shulk developing in order to be placed that high? As is, he seems to struggle with defensive play and he more or less has to play at mid range. That's a very generous placing for him, and while I don't necessarily disagree, what made you rate him so high? Do you see something that others don't? I know of many Shulk players who have switched off of him or simply think he's not good or worth the effort.

I understand your placings of Luigi and Kirby based on your reasoning, but in that case, zoners sound like they shouldn't be able to do their job. Do you foresee projectile-based characters to fall in effectiveness as we move towards optimization?

Sorry for the questions, I just wanted to jump on the opportunity to ask a high level player who also seems to enjoy theory what they think. This sort of stuff is fun to think about.

no problem at all. this is what smashboards was made for!

to start with zoning, it's a very tricky concept. it can frequently become too pattern based + low reward to the point where even characters that struggle against zoning strongly will eventually work their way in and invert everything off 1 favorable exchange. this is largely why i reject the notion that anyone can simply zone luigi even if their kit is not really built around zoning. for zoning to be effective you need to convert the snuff into a high reward situation. rosalina for example can zone effectively with luma jab but that hits people up which either directly combos into upairs or sets up juggle situations where rosalina thrives. getting past the jab can get you grabbed which achieves the same thing, etc.

projectile based zoners like megaman and villager won't win off just slingshots or pellets alone (although honestly ranai made slingshot seem like the best move in the game when i played him) but what happens is these characters can switch up the zone patterns into very strong rewards. villager can convert into bowling ball or other edgeguard situations. megaman gets less overall which is why i have him near the end of B tier but his rewards are proportional with the pool of characters he is placed around.

shulk i agree does struggle a bit with defensive play. however with a lead of his own, he can play defensively pretty effectively. it's the same vein idea as kirby which i listed earlier but shulk's damage output isn't quite on par with kirby unless you get a really good purple string. for shulk to be played at the potential i see in him the player has to be exceptionally patient because shulk's offensive neutral without blue is not his strong point. however he gets disproportionately stronger in his advantage state with proper management of purple and red.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Top 3 is probably Bayo, Cloud and Sheik, with Diddy right behind.

ZSS and MK have lost a lot with their crazy advantage states being toned down. ZSS is still solid and probably rounds out top 5 but I don't see her as top 3 material. MK is significantly weaker.

Rosalina is held back by her MK and Cloud MUs IMO, while Mario lacks some of the incredible strengths and positive MUs of the (few) characters above him, but those two are 6th and 7th I'd say.

Largely agree, though I can't really see Diddy as meaningfully worse than the top 3. I'd probably group the top 4 into S tier, ZSS/Rosa into A+, and the rest into A. Not opposed to the idea of Mario being 7th since the other contenders have similarly significant warts, but he's not really a dominant char like the ones above him, just kind of indifferent about whether he's like 7th or 10th. Kind of interchangeable with Sonic or Fox or MK imo.

 

[Hero_2_All]

no problem at all. this is what smashboards was made for!

to start with zoning, it's a very tricky concept. it can frequently become too pattern based + low reward to the point where even characters that struggle against zoning strongly will eventually work their way in and invert everything off 1 favorable exchange. this is largely why i reject the notion that anyone can simply zone luigi even if their kit is not really built around zoning. for zoning to be effective you need to convert the snuff into a high reward situation. rosalina for example can zone effectively with luma jab but that hits people up which either directly combos into upairs or sets up juggle situations where rosalina thrives. getting past the jab can get you grabbed which achieves the same thing, etc.

projectile based zoners like megaman and villager won't win off just slingshots or pellets alone (although honestly ranai made slingshot seem like the best move in the game when i played him) but what happens is these characters can switch up the zone patterns into very strong rewards. villager can convert into bowling ball or other edgeguard situations. megaman gets less overall which is why i have him near the end of B tier but his rewards are proportional with the pool of characters he is placed around.

shulk i agree does struggle a bit with defensive play. however with a lead of his own, he can play defensively pretty effectively. it's the same vein idea as kirby which i listed earlier but shulk's damage output isn't quite on par with kirby unless you get a really good purple string. for shulk to be played at the potential i see in him the player has to be exceptionally patient because shulk's offensive neutral without blue is not his strong point. however he gets disproportionately stronger in his advantage state with proper management of purple and red.

Hmm that's actually a really good theory for what makes good zoning. Its not only how well you can zone, but also how well you can convert off the advantage created by successful zoning. The combination of both is what makes a good zoner. Under that I can definitely see how you value Rosa, Cloud, Corrin and other swordies so much. They not only zone well, but have great advantage state off successful zoning. Without the ability to convert off zoning your just delaying a possible Luigi or falcon from blowing you up once they do get in. Really until then without the ability to convert your advantage you only have the illusion of being ahead. (correct me If I miss interpreted what your saying).

 

[C0rvus]

Very interesting. I agree with your notion of zoning. It's only good if it converts into good reward, which is what makes Toon Link better than many people might have expected, since that's like, his entire gameplan. I also had never thought of Rosalina like that, makes her more clear to me now.

I notice you don't think very highly of Wii Fit Trainer, I suppose for those reasons. Her zoning doesn't really lead into anything but like, more zoning or getting a tiny bit of health back. She's certainly proven herself to be pretty decent. This game's cast seems pretty top heavy, which is good.

Shulk is such a strange bird. I think he could be played in the manner that you described for Luigi and Kirby, but what they have for capitalizing on small openings, Shulk lacks. And that is grounded frame data. His reward, while currently under developed, isn't terribly impressive to me, but I suppose he can make up for it in his own ability to zone with a lead and his mobility.

 

[falln]

Blindspots? Eh... Trying to hit somebody especially above or below you with Marcina's Fair doesn't seem to work out often. It's not Ike's Fair. Meanwhile the hitboxes on, oh say, Pit's Uair are much better placed then theirs.

I really think you're missing something with Pit's recovery. Up B doesn't have a hitbox, yeah, but unlike Marcina you don't need to fly back to the ledge predictably between how you can angle it and the multiple jumps. Side B's armor does most of the work anyway...

landing into people with fair isn't the business. retreating fair/spaced upair/tomahawk mixup and pivot jab are more what you'd be looking for in that situation. the pits can't replicate these same angles because they are more reliant on maintaining autocancel ranges with their aerials and the grounded attacks. the character still functions just fine, but i still see marth and lucina as outclassing them in that regard.

the angels have a lot of diversity in their recovery but if the opponent is in a position to set up an edgeguard it can be difficult for the angels to actually put forward a fast option. when it comes to actually choosing how to recover the angels move too slowly and tip their hand. that's the extent of my opinion on marth/lucina vs the angels.

What makes ZSS in the top 3 over Cloud? I'm not saying I disagree but plenty of people here like to say otherwise.

i have cloud at 3 and zss at 6

Interesting.

falln How much weight did you put in results on this list? That's where a lot of the uh, oddities are coming from. (Shulk effectively has none, Ike and MegaMan both have top 8 at MLG with their worst MUs getting improved since then with Ike fairly consistently overall popping up in top 8 in larger regional tournaments with good Ike mains and Scatt doing very impressive work, Kirby effectively has none, iStudying is getting results for Greninja, Marth is just starting to get some results but even then its more top 16 stuff than top 8 stuff, etc).

i will value results of something like myself vs ito or larry vs void when it comes to understanding certain matchups because you can see many iterations and evolution of the matchup as well as when both players are off or on. other than that no i really don't value results with regards to a character's strength. too many out-of-game factors aren't accounted for. i understand how this is frustrating for discussion since everything else gets a bit subjective but that's how it is.

falln

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Corrin and why you think they are that high, if you don't mind. :3

her advantage state (catching landings with fsmash/dsmash/skewer, trapping with aerials, skewer out of shield), along with her combo break nair and ever looming threat of dragon death counter makes her incredibly effective vs mixup/5050 scenarios. she's a bundle of stats and attributes that you have to respect all at the same time. the strength of the mixups are i think too much for most characters to keep up with

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Bowser is a defensive character but saying he is read and punish based is stretching it a little. Donkey Kong's tools may be MORE offensive than Bowser's, but Bowser still has a fair share of offensive tools and tech that allows him to be offensive and pressure, even against disciplined play. For example, Jab 1 - Bowser Bomb. By itself Bowser Bomb can be easy to see coming and easy to punish, but as a jab followup it can earn us kills. That being said, it isn't a true combo - at the farthest range of our jab, a majority of the cast has a very small frame advantage over us (with the exception of a few characters, including ZSS), but at any other range we have frame advantage against them which allows for easy pickings. I know you expressed the extent of your opinion on Bowser, so this will be my final word - I'm sure there are other questions you want to answer so I won't keep you, haha!

 

[Trifroze]

Again I want to point out that right now in the meta, ordering top tiers among each other and getting stuck on whether character x is top 1 or top 3 or top 6½ is simply pointless. Everyone has clear weaknesses and clear strengths, and it's much more productive to move the conversation to that straight up and focus on it rather than ever even bring up arbitrary numbers or orderings outside of rough viability descriptions. That should be left to the people who make the final lists when and only when they have to be made, but everyone is obsessed with that for some reason, and it's always a distraction and it's more bound to create bias than anything.

"I don't know exactly where to place Cloud, but everyone places him in top 3 so I guess I'll do that too", and now there's even more reason for the next person to think in this way, all while the conversation is kept away from what actually matters and this whole idea snowballs until everyone unanimously thinks Cloud is obviously top 3.

Sure there are some facts to be said, like Bayonetta is the "dumbest" character considering her gameplan and the community outcry, Cloud is the most efficient character across all levels, Sheik bodies everyone in neutral, or that all of them are very viable and so on, but those facts are all a 100 times more descriptive than turning the characters into numbers and switching them around until it all feels pretty.

 

[ItoI6]

I want to say that matchup chart falln and I made originally came about when for fun I decided to make the matchups between top 15 and I did that all on my own. Then I showed him it and he changed a few, then we decided to include Corrin and Luigi as well, which at the time I had as 16 and 17 on my tier list, so he made the matchups for those two. Now here is my amazing new tier list I made like a week ago.

I think right now Falcon, Megaman and Lucario are underrated and could really take off under a good player. I think people are badly underestimating how strong sheik was, and she could still be #1 but we'll see.
Kirby, Wario and Shulk are overrated.
B- and up can win tournaments with top players in them I think if lucky enough.
C- and up I feel there's actually a legitimate reason to play the character and they're not just totally outclassed or bad.
D and below are totally outclassed and Ganon and Mii Gunner are just miserable characters.

I also want to clear something up when everyone said that falln put luigi too high or that I think of luigi as being too high because concon is in my region, or some other character is in my region and I think highly of them because of it. I literally have played concon only 3 times in tournament ever, and all those times were with prepatch diddy inbetween february-april 2015 last year. I really honestly do not take into account my personal record against most people when im making these lol.

 

[Jalil]

Edit: ignore this.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Someone needs to post a good tier list.

Spoiler

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

 

[Y2Kay]

Someone needs to post a good tier list.

Spoiler

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Switch Marth and Lucario and you would be golden.

 

[MistressRemilia]

I would like everyone to agree on that:
Let's stop ranking Miis, alright, please?
Admit it, you don't know **** about these characters unless you main them or they're a significant secondary for you. Aside from the fact that their results are extremely shaky, which is kind of logical, due to the fact that they have tons of restrictions that led into few Mii mains from the get go. I'd really like to argue that, for example; Gunner is absolutely not the worst character in the game, and considering him above the likes of Ganondorf or Zelda or Jiggs.
The problem is that i can't even argue well enough about this topic: All i know of Gunner is that 1111 still has a good neutral, which for me, is enough to set him above the 3 characters mentionned because said characters are kind of just hopeless vs most characters that don't have a **** neutral because theirs' is absolute crap.

See how shaky my argument is? And the problem is that i'm not alone, i'm not the only one who's knowledge on these characters is so lackluster, many people legitimately can't argue for or against these characters' placement on a tier list. They're just placed there almost by default.

 

[zeldasmash]

Someone needs to post a good tier list.

Spoiler

S:
A:
B:
C:
D:
E:
F:

Roy is too low. There's no way the guy is Zelda/Dedede/Jigglypuff levels of bad. I think Ganondorf would be at the very bottom of E while Roy would be below Mac. Mega Man also feels a bit too high.

Everything seems fine.

 

[Greward]

Bowser is heavily underestimated.

He has slowly been getting them top8 results all over the world, and lately we are seeing more of him.

While his disadvantage state is awful, he has ways to work around it (basically going to the ledge), and his punishes out of a very solid and underestimated neutral game make up for it. Besides, bowser in rage is known to kill in the ranges of 60-70% out of grabs which is relevant.

Bowser excelent tilts and jab (better than DK in neutral state, as bowser you only miss DK's god tier up tilt which is anyways a better tool for advantage game) do make his neutral game strong, and his fearful grabs do make shielding against him not safe. His pivot grab and excellent run speed give him tools to punish landing and bad approaches. I don't think he has an all around worse neutral than DK, matchup dependant worse maybe. But I think saying bowser has a superior neutral game isn't farfetched, DK doesn't really dominate at any point in neutral and Bowser in range (which he'll get eventually) nullifies a lot of options.
His advantage is not as good as DK since he can't really juggle or go offstage like DK can, but he has superior tools to punish landings. Overall it's slightly worse (wish he had DK's bair/upair) but Bowser is known to hit like a truck anyways.

Each grab will build 25-30% as a character that will get some stocks at the 70% range, which is very few punishes to get a stock in comparison to other characters, and he doesn't have a horrible neutral as many people think (except in some matchups).

He's not that worse than DK.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ito's tier list is more in line with what I'd expect. Still a few oddities, but every list is going to have some otherwise we'd have a list everyone could agree with by now. (Bowser, Luigi, Pac-Man and Wario being the big ones but same scene as Falln so there will be some overlap)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

falln Deviating from questions on your tier list a bit, where do you see the Rosalina meta going with respect to utilizing Luma? I noticed that Dabuz likes to keep it synced to Rosalina while you seem a bit more free with sending it out and doing more puppet-y things with it. Do you think that Luma is too vulnerable when desynced for such tactics to work in the long run, or are there enough characters that struggle to handle it? What about edgeguards and combo extensions? Is it even possible to actively protect a desynced Luma or is it mostly at the mercy of the opponent?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser is heavily underestimated.

He has slowly been getting them top8 results all over the world, and lately we are seeing more of him.

While his disadvantage state is awful, he has ways to work around it (basically going to the ledge), and his punishes out of a very solid and underestimated neutral game make up for it. Besides, bowser in rage is known to kill in the ranges of 60-70% out of grabs which is relevant.

Bowser excelent tilts and jab (better than DK in neutral state, as bowser you only miss DK's god tier up tilt which is anyways a better tool for advantage game) do make his neutral game strong, and his fearful grabs do make shielding against him not safe. His pivot grab and excellent run speed give him tools to punish landing and bad approaches. I don't think he has an all around worse neutral than DK, matchup dependant worse maybe. But I think saying bowser has a superior neutral game isn't farfetched, DK doesn't really dominate at any point in neutral and Bowser in range (which he'll get eventually) nullifies a lot of options.
His advantage is not as good as DK since he can't really juggle or go offstage like DK can, but he has superior tools to punish landings. Overall it's slightly worse (wish he had DK's bair/upair) but Bowser is known to hit like a truck anyways.

Each grab will build 25-30% as a character that will get some stocks at the 70% range, which is very few punishes to get a stock in comparison to other characters, and he doesn't have a horrible neutral as many people think (except in some matchups).

He's not that worse than DK.

I mean I don't think C and D tier are really that far apart to begin with, and are usually where I put all my "I don't know" characters like Wario and Olimar, but I think DK has better air mobility and aerials to help his disadvantage, and that plus better combos and edgeguarding give him the edge. I think their neutrals are probably a wash, but DK feels more well rounded to me and thus slightly better. Also I generally hate fighting all of S tier outside of Bayonetta as Bowser, so that's a factor in me being reluctant to place him particularly high, though I do regard most anyone D and up as a solid character capable of getting results.

 

[Dre89]

ultimately the difference in my eyes that really sets the 2 apart is that bowser's tools are more limited to *read* or *punish* whereas dk can more effectively/safely pressure or box you out with his tilts and other moves. bowser's tools in neutral are too reliant on the opponent extending into bowser. that's the extent of my opinion on the char

It's the opposite actually. DK is much more dependant on his pivot grab because he doesn't have a good dashgrab like Bowser. Bowser is much better at threatening passive opponents because of his enormous dashgrab range. He can even be annoying with firebreath if they're just trying to wall him out.

DK has no good forward burst options except dash attack, so he's the one who is more dependant on his opponent extending into him.

 

[bc1910]

I want to say that matchup chart falln and I made originally came about when for fun I decided to make the matchups between top 15 and I did that all on my own. Then I showed him it and he changed a few, then we decided to include Corrin and Luigi as well, which at the time I had as 16 and 17 on my tier list, so he made the matchups for those two. Now here is my amazing new tier list I made like a week ago.

I think right now Falcon, Megaman and Lucario are underrated and could really take off under a good player. I think people are badly underestimating how strong sheik was, and she could still be #1 but we'll see.
Kirby, Wario and Shulk are overrated.
B- and up can win tournaments with top players in them I think if lucky enough.
C- and up I feel there's actually a legitimate reason to play the character and they're not just totally outclassed or bad.
D and below are totally outclassed and Ganon and Mii Gunner are just miserable characters.

I also want to clear something up when everyone said that falln put luigi too high or that I think of luigi as being too high because concon is in my region, or some other character is in my region and I think highly of them because of it. I literally have played concon only 3 times in tournament ever, and all those times were with prepatch diddy inbetween february-april 2015 last year. I really honestly do not take into account my personal record against most people when im making these lol.

I do think Luigi and DK are too high. Both are easy for a lot of good characters to shut out, and regarding Luigi in particular I don't agree with the notion that he can just "shield to create a stalemate then roll past something". Against a good character, a read on that can lead to just as much damage as Luigi would have dealt if he got in.

Otherwise, this is pretty good.