Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Y2Kay]

Top 6 of MARS 2016, a European regional, is about to start https://www.twitch.tv/smashonsud

Winners Finals J. Miller vs. Phogos
Losers Quarters Deimos / vs. Griffith
Losers Quarters Elexiao / vs. Homika

7th place Glutonny Mana

Elexiao is an underrated Greninja. Isn't he PRed top 10 in France?

 

[DunnoBro]

Funny enough, Tearbear claims that he plays a "boring Falcon" in that he goes for bair walling, and safe guaranteed d throw to uair strings. He played PHENOMENALLY against Fow, by being unpredictable (he got Fow with a freakin Falcon Punch for crying out loud!) to the point that the commentators noted it. No one could predict what Tearbear was about to do in that match.

Actually it was FOW's like 12th time airdodging onto the stage so Terry just called him out on it. That's the only real set-up for a falcon punch. I definitely couldn't have predicted it but it was definitely calculated and optimal despite how hype it was.

But you cannot honestly tell me that playing against Sheik was better than playing against Bayonetta

Yes I can, because a sheik HAD to be better than you to beat you. They had to beat you in neutral again and again and needles weren't the insta-win I'm sure people like to claim they were in 1.1.4

Bayonetta does not have to be better than you, she doesn't have to win neutral that much at all, she can hit buttons and get a few easybake combos started and witchtime you.

And when a sheik lost neutral, her big, light fast falling body ensured the punish was big. Bayo is also big and light but witch time and bat within take away almost all of the consequences for that.

 

[DanGR]

I have a Theory: top players are "complaining"
About bayo in order to get her nerfed, but they don't actually think she's that bad. They know Nintendo listens to this community and will enact decisions based on what we say.

Except there's a long record of Nintendo not balancing based on community feedback.

Thankfully.

 

[C0rvus]

Bowser Jr. in top 8 of NorCal Regional? Never heard of the player (Andy Sauro?) but it's a very good result for a character who's meta is on life support.

So this event only has 3 PRed players in attendance. I guess everyone's busy today. Even so, any BowJow footage is a welcome surprise.

 

[Das Koopa]

What was the NorCal regional?

Also, is there a bracket for single of The Arena 2016?

 

[juddy96]

As a guy that's quite involved in the NorCal scene, NorCal Regionals 2016 was free af. The smash portion last year wasn't run well so most of NorCal either went to 2GGT, went to a biweekly in Oakland, or stayed home.

 

[Nairo]

stuff from Saturday's tournaments:

FOW Saga
Why does Larry Lurr have a Mario that looks like a main for months? I suppose he plays with Zenyou a lot, but in general his Mario is actually insanely good. Nairo looked pretty good, but it does kinda seem like he's getting more and more 'carried' (emphasis on the quotes) by ZSS's punish game as the game develops. People are really figuring out ZSS's neutral, but I think we forget that her punish game is still super bonkers lol. This and what I saw of Choco over the weekend pretty much convinced me that ZSS is not dropping from top 5 any time soon and imo has a solid 4th spot. nair -> down b is brutal, dsmash punishes are brutal, and dthrow uair still exists for kills (sigh). ZSS players are getting a lot more creative and consistent with punishes too, especially off paralyzer (paralyzer -> down b, up b on reaction consistently after anti started doing it) and air dodge baits (nairo finally doing the down b out of up airs). It really does feel like she's the same character with ladders toned down and we're just going to ZSS players become more creative/optimized with their punishes, which is pretty cool.

Outfoxx'd
Mr. R is so good at this game lol. It's almost like this patch was a power-up for him; he was one of the last Sheiks to really learn the 50/50 anyways, and the needles nerf means that his pressure-oriented style is a lot more optimal. I'm still not sure how he 6-0'd Ally because his record against Ally before this was extremely bad and he lost to him like a few days ago, but the way Mr. R plays Sheik will easily make him the best Sheik in this patch, imo. Her nerfs are a big deal, but I'm kind of feeling what Mr. R was saying last week tbh: Sheik is the best character with perfect play. She has the frame data, safety, combos, recovery, mobility, the infinite options...Sheik didn't really lose any of this, and it's actually making me pretty optimistic. I don't think Sheik is the practical best character or even close to it, but it's a pretty interesting line of thought.

Apart from things I said, there was stuff like Tearbear getting 3rd, yet another Toon Link player almost freeing up Nairo, and Yoshi getting 3rd (!) at a stacked Texas regional. There's only one character stopping this metagame from looking really fun and balanced....



At least people are figuring out the cringe tyroy Bayonetta style (aka spam Witch Twist and Witch Time hoping they work even though Witch Twist is completely unpunishable so.....) but this character is utterly bonkers in the hands of virtually anyone who invests time in learning her neutral game, which is much better than many keep insisting. I feel like there definitely are legitimate tactics (ANTi decided to do nothing but grab and actually beat tyroy pretty solidly when he did that) to fight her, but she kind of marginalizes these tactics by being a more ridiculous Brawl Ice Climbers. ZeRo's video is extremely on point about this character so I don't really have much more to say, but Bayonetta in her current state is imo a few things: she punishes you for playing the game normally, she's not overrated, and she's indisputably #1 in the game.

Lol good stuff saying people looked good but threw in that I get "carried" (I see the emphasis don't worry Im not blind! haha) clearly disliked that I won or just dislike ZSS. Just find it silly/funny you didn't say anyone else got "carried" like Sheik/Mario do not have very good things about them too. ZSS' neutral isn't that great so people figuring it out or dealing it with better isn't surprising, not the worst of course but there are others with a better/scarier one. Downb after upairs is good but also saving it so it doesn't stale by a bit is also good too if you think you might use it later on like near the ledge (horizontal hitbox not the spike one!) at a higher or kill percent.

 

[Big-Cat]

NAIRO HAS GREETED US WITH HIS PRESENCE!

You say her neutral isn't great, but wouldn't positioning be a part of neutral? To me, she's amazing in that aspect.

 

[Thinkaman]

Combined top 16 usage results from 2GGT, OUTFOXX'D, PPT, and BG2. (Still waiting on MARS and The Arena)

Used:
x9
x8
x6
x6
x5
x4
x4
x3
x3
x3
x3
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2












Not Used:



Hey, remember that time everyone was 100% sure that was the new meta?

 

[Das Koopa]

I'd just like to say that Wario is the least used perceived good/decent character in the game at this point

rip 20WahWah

 

[juddy96]

And then you have Minnesota. That one state. Had 114 man monthly yesterday that ended in grand finals of... Greninja vs. Ganondorf.

 

[Smog Frog]

hey, you gotta be fair to . his best players are spread out all over the world and only meet in majors. thats when we get 3 of em in top 8.

 

[C0rvus]

And then you have Minnesota. That one state. Had 114 man monthly yesterday that ended in grand finals of... Greninja vs. Ganondorf.

You know what channel those matches will be uploaded to? I'm interested.

 

[Thinkaman]

And then you have Minnesota. That one state. Had 114 man monthly yesterday that ended in grand finals of... Greninja vs. Ganondorf.

I debated rather or not to total it up, and ultimately declined solely because I was lazy and didn't have the data spoon-fed to me.

Also, our very own @John12346 went and won a 40-man local with WFT, so there was a little fitness going on this weekend.

Also also, someone won a tourney in CO with Yoshi???

 

[juddy96]

I debated rather or not to total it up, and ultimately declined solely because I was lazy and didn't have the data spoon-fed to me.

Also, our very own @John12346 went and won a 40-man local with WFT, so there was a little fitness going on this weekend.

Also also, someone won a tourney in CO with Yoshi???

I believe so. I listed him as a Yoshi main (cuz thats what I've seen him play before at Super Bit Wars 4)

 

[Solfiner]

Combined top 16 usage results from 2GGT, OUTFOXX'D, PPT, and BG2. (Still waiting on MARS and The Arena)

Used:
x9
x8
x6
x6
x5
x4
x4
x3
x3
x3
x3
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2












Not Used:



Hey, remember that time everyone was 100% sure that was the new meta?

And we still have people saying this game isn't balanced, smh.

It's only gonna get better from here as well since buffs aren't over.

 

[FimPhym]

I'm pretty sure the recent DLC was deliberately overtuned to entice people into buying it.

It's really embarrassing that people liked this.This narrative comes up in pretty much every game, but it's especially strange in this case.

Cloud, perhaps the most iconic final fantasy character of all time, needs to be overtuned in smash bros to sell. In smash bros, a game with a massive casual audience. And Sakurai still messed up so bad that after trying to make him overpowered to coerce you to spend money, he still failed to make a character absolutely dominating tournaments. He's just regular "top tier" good.

Can you guys try to zoom out a little? Your perspective is so self centred it's cringe inducing.

Furthermore, I sure hope bayonetta naysayers can get her banned before more tournament results show she's basically just a regular top character in a game. If the results don't back you up soon you'll have to really lean on this scrubby "but she's not fun to fight!" stuff even harder, and that doesn't fly in any game.

Bayonetta, and any character in a competitive game, does not owe you the favour of being "fun to fight". Fun as in "wet and wild and loose". Competitive games in general are no fun at all - they're grueling and difficult and intense. That's fun if you really stretch the word to mean everything, but it's a very different kind of fun.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Hey, remember that time everyone was 100% sure that was the new meta?

What a jerk.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Thinkaman]

Also, can we talk about Ryo winning Smash Con 56 while playing in top 8?

(Sol got 2nd with , having become d-tilt to up-b incarnate.)

 

[juddy96]

Also, can we talk about Ryo winning Smash Con 56 while playing in top 8?

(Sol got 2nd with , having become d-tilt to up-b incarnate.)

And as you can see on my spreadsheet, Ryo did not have the best time in Jacksonville yesterday lol, got 3rd losing to Saj's Bayo. Saj ended up resetting bracket in grands, but fell to Day's Lucario in the end.

 

[sedrf]

It's seems the chance of bayo winning a major is slim

 

[juddy96]

Elexiao makes top 3 at MARS 2016 beating Griffith's 3-2!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ For those who don't know, Griffith used to go by the name Dany in Brawl where he was the EU's best IC player having wins like Mr-r under his belt.

 

[Thinkaman]

^ For those who don't know, Griffith used to go by the name Dany in Brawl where he was the EU's best IC player having wins like Mr-r under his belt.

But-but-but I thought only nobodies like Salem got wins with Bayo!

 

[HFlash]

Also, can we talk about Ryo winning Smash Con 56 while playing in top 8?

(Sol got 2nd with , having become d-tilt to up-b incarnate.)

Not to be that guy but that local weekly (Gainesville, Florida) is always dominated by Ryo (or M2k if he shows up). He is known to just pull out random characters, even in grand finals just because he can.

I would use data from this tourney with a heavy grain of salt.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This meta lookin REAL bayo centric guys.

Oh wait a sec....

 

[Thinkaman]

Not to be that guy but that local weekly (Gainesville, Florida) is always dominated by Ryo (or M2k if he shows up). He is known to just pull out random characters, even in grand finals just because he can.

I would use data from this tourney with a heavy grain of salt.

Of course, I'd never dream of including data like that in a any sort of meaningful compilation. It was just funny; I love watching Ryo's play.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But-but-but I thought only nobodies like Salem got wins with Bayo!

... who?

 

[Nobie]

I notice that a lot of Bayos just straight up SD fairly often, including players like 9B. As people get more used to her it'll probably happen less often, but there's something to be said about a character who needs her second jump OR ELSE.

 

[juddy96]

Phogos just won an amazing WF set with J. Miller

https://www.twitch.tv/smashonsud

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Also, can we talk about Ryo winning Smash Con 56 while playing in top 8?

(Sol got 2nd with , having become d-tilt to up-b incarnate.)

Is this the part where I get to chuckle at the guy whoever it was however long ago that claimed that Ryo should count as a Palutena rep? He used that many characters and she STILL didn't show up.

Didn't know he had a Samus or Dr. Mario though. Cool. Knew about the other ones.

EDIT: Was Sol using that new control scheme thingy?

 

[Das Koopa]

Looking at the MARS Top 16, there sure do seem to be a lot of Bayonettas.

Spoiler

none of which are in the top 3 hue

But Devskil, Glutonny, Griffith, and Greil all seem to be Bayonetta players, looking at their most recent results at CWC 2016.

But hey we have a Luigi vs. Pac-Man loser's Final so I'm happy

 

[|RK|]

Scrolling through Twitter, it would appear Pink Fresh agrees with ZeRo. Did not expect that, lol.

So, with Samus's performance this weekend, what is the prevailing opinion on the character?

 

[bc1910]

Elexiao makes top 3 at MARS 2016 beating Griffith's 3-2!

Griffith is a good player as well, as others have pointed out he's beaten players like Mr R. Nice example of Greninja doing well in this MU.

Is MARS still going on?

Also, PLEASE tell me the Greninja beat the Ganon at the Minnesota monthly.

 

[FullMoon]

Wow all these tournament results. Most characters seem to have gotten good placement

 

[PK Gaming]

Is this the part where I get to chuckle at the guy whoever it was however long ago that claimed that Ryo should count as a Palutena rep? He used that many characters and she STILL didn't show up.

Didn't know he had a Samus or Dr. Mario though. Cool. Knew about the other ones.

EDIT: Was Sol using that new control scheme thingy?

No.

Btw, you can watch the SC56 sets here.

 

[juddy96]

Griffith is a good player as well, as others have pointed out he's beaten players like Mr R. Nice example of Greninja doing well in this MU.

Is MARS still going on?

Also, PLEASE tell me the Greninja beat the Ganon at the Minnesota monthly.

GF of MARS is streaming right now https://www.twitch.tv/smashonsud
and yes he did, Shinjoebi beat GanonTheBeast

 

[Pancracio17]

Whats with the variety this weekend, its glorious

 

[Aaron1997]

Meanwhile... Elexiao takes out J miller 3-0 >

Yep Elexiao duo mains Greninja and Pacman. Miller end up running into terrible Match-up. Luigi cant do anything against Fruit and Hydrant spam because of his Mobility Specs.

 

[bc1910]

GF of MARS is streaming right now https://www.twitch.tv/smashonsud
and yes he did, Shinjoebi beat GanonTheBeast

Thank God. That's Greninja's best MU IMO.

Greninja and Pac-Man both stomp Luigi. All going well we should have two frogs placing 1st this weekend.