Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[HFlash]

http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-20160327473528

By far, the highlight of Falcon's competitive career in Smash 4.

 

[Pancracio17]

Wat
How
Wat
WAT

 

[DE235]

NAKAT won BATTLEGROUNDS 2 with Lucas.

 

[Djent]

Here are some Tearbear highlights.

The commentators note that Tearbear's playstyle is a perfect counter to FOW's, but I have to think that this is one of Falcon's better high-tier MUs as well. Ness can't win on strong reward alone (because Falcon has that too), and it's not like his neutral vastly outclasses Falcon's either.

 

[Das Koopa]

Larry Lurr beats Falln 3-1 by just staying Fox. Falln gets 5th.

Rosalina still doing pretty good post-patch

 

[19_]

Zss and falcon in winners finals...

I wonder how Trifroze is feeling right now.

 

[Trifroze]

Smash is pretty different from other fighting games in many aspects, but rushing in when it's a 1vs1 fighting scenario is always just plain dumb. It is strange how in SF for example going in recklessly is looked down upon and solid defense is respected, while in Smash it's the opposite. A rarely seen character killing someone with a deadly confirm at <100% is hype until you see it more than 3 times. Then it's just "wow dumb when's nerf".

Can only hope that knowledge and experience spreads in the viewing community with time and people realize that xthrow to uair kills at 80% are dumb whether they're done by Diddy or Bowser. Luigi stands as a good past example, he went from hero to villain in the eyes of the community pretty swiftly simply because people got used to his gameplan. I wonder how sick these same people would become of something like Mega Man's pellets if he made appearances in every top 8, but right now Mega Man is always "hype" (note that I'm not actually looking down on Mega Man or saying that anyone should).

I guess half of this is just due to the whole upset/underdog mentality, but it's still pretty shortsighted.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Watching FOW live til like 200% is making me feel bad for Sheik mains...wonder if I genuinely feel bad, or if this is just my hatred for Ness poking through.
Context: FOW vs K9sbruce @ 2GGT

 

[IsmaR]

Some very unfortunate SDs on K9's part. That last match in particular was basically "who could instill the fear in the other's heart first."

 

[DunnoBro]

Really doubt ness actually loses to sheik if they know how to play the MU.

Yea, sheik has the tools to keep ness out but ness has the tools to stay out and not dead.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Fow just made it look impossible for DK to recover off stage

edit: pk thunder, pk fire, d smash and dair just eat dongcopter alive jesus

 

[sedrf]

zss vs falcon still seems horrible fr falcon, There's also terry playing sloppy though.

 

[IsmaR]

Well this is probably the most interesting loser's finals that was possible given all the entrants, even considering character variety.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Disclaimer: I'm rolling back to the Bayonetta secondary after the MK changes

But I flipped on the FOW tourney and I'm not sure why we're all discussing nerfs because we're so convinced Bayonetta ruins the game this patch when we she's totally absent. Meanwhile DK is fighting Lucas in losers finals.

She simply seems like one of many characters that has a chance to win at the top level since Shiek was given a weakness.

 

[deepseadiva]

you did that thing again where you compare smash to other things that most people are not interested in and it kinda isn't even related to smash at all..

At least it's not like, Roman history or something

 

[Djent]

Spoiler: FOW Saga Results

1) Nairo
2) Larry Lurr
3) Tearbear
4) FOW
5) K9sbruce
5) Falln
5) 3xA
5) VoiD

This tournament was pretty incredible. I'm pretty sure VoiD was the only player to use a DLC character in the top 16 (I could be mistaken though). EDIT: WOW I'm an idiot...

 

[Solfiner]

Good Lucas rep today, I'm liking it.

Edit: ELEVEN unique characters in top 8.

 

[Das Koopa]

2GGT FOW Saga Top 16 (Large Regional, March 26th 2016)

1st: Nairo ()
2nd: Larry Lurr ()
3rd: Tearbear ()
4th: FOW ()
5th: Falln ()
5th: K9 ()
7th: VoiD ()
7th: 3xA ()
9th: JWest ()
9th: Zan ()
9th: SS ()
9th: MrConCon ()
13th: IC ()
13th: TLTC ()
13th: Scizor ()
13th: Sleeh ()

*Didn't include VoiD's Mewtwo because he used it one game and lost, but there's that too, I guess.

 

[sedrf]

and people say bayonetta gonna ruin everything.
Is their any bayos in sol cal?
Another note: how did c.falcon get so far

 

[ARGHETH]

7th: Ax3 ()

Just a note, that's 3xA, not Ax3.

 

[sedrf]

results for battleground/outfoxx'd?

 

[juddy96]

and people say bayonetta gonna ruin everything.
Is their any bayos in sol cal?
Another note: how did c.falcon get so far

Yes, NCJacobT, who's famous for SD'ing at really bad moments, and Aphro, who got DQ'd from singles.

 

[Halifax?]

Is it necessary that every single person in this thread take their own 2 shots? Mob mentality much. Does it really take 10 different stern talking to's

 

[rm88]

Yesterday at The Arena 2016 in Mexico there was a pretty controversial set of 2v2 matches where a Bayo player got some insanely early kills (including a ~10% kill against Leo, sending his team to losers bracket). People are not very happy about Bayo around here, but eh, I can see most of them switching to her in response :[ This was a MetaKnight nation back in the Brawl days.

I hope we're just being overly dramatic, and I hope (what we had of) balance in this game is not jeopardized because of one character.

 

[|RK|]

Y'know, even in ZeRo's video, he didn't say Bayonetta was unstoppable. But her design is kind of dumb. No, defensive play isn't bad. But one player has to be significantly slower and more defensive, and they don't get the same kind of reward as Bayonetta. This is where I believe (and someone more versed in traditional fighting games can correct me if I'm wrong) the comparison to traditional fighting games falls short - Bayonetta is the only character that causes this level of defensive play, but she doesn't have to play that same way.

Hell, as a spectator, the defensive play isn't even boring. The issue is watching a whole stock get thrown away by one mistake at almost any percent. It is the opposite of hype, because it over-punishes the opponent. It doesn't go away with a stock like Aura or Limit; it is an ever-present threat.

Personally, I think the character is dumb as hell. But that's just my humble opinion.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

How much were Link and Tink held back by Shiek before the patch? I've always thought they were both underrated and there were a few in top 16 for this tourney. Who did they end up losing to?

 

[FullMoon]

Spoiler: FOW Saga Results

1) Nairo
2) Larry Lurr
3) Tearbear
4) FOW
5) K9sbruce
5) Falln
5) 3xA
5) VoiD

This tournament was pretty incredible. I'm pretty sure VoiD was the only player to use a DLC character in the top 16 (I could be mistaken though).

Everybody neglects poor Lucas.

 

[ARGHETH]

How much were Link and Tink held back by Shiek before the patch? I've always thought they were both underrated and there were a few in top 16 for this tourney. Who did they end up losing to?

3xA lost to Nairo and K9
Zan lost to FOW and Falln
Scizor lost to Tearbear and Jonny Westside.

 

[Das Koopa]

Who did Anti use at Outfoxx'd? He does what Larry does so I have no idea, I'm collecting the Outfoxx'd results.

 

[sedrf]

I think anti went mario/diddy

 

[MachoCheeze]

Who did Anti use at Outfoxx'd? He does what Larry does so I have no idea, I'm collecting the Outfoxx'd results.

From what I was able to catch of it he used Sonic and Diddy.

 

[Thetwinmasters]

Who did Anti use at Outfoxx'd? He does what Larry does so I have no idea, I'm collecting the Outfoxx'd results.

Mario sonic zss

 

[deepseadiva]

2GGT FOW Saga Top 16 (Large Regional, March 26th 2016)

1st: Nairo ()
2nd: Larry Lurr ()
3rd: Tearbear ()
4th: FOW ()
5th: Falln ()
5th: K9 ()
7th: VoiD ()
7th: 3xA ()
9th: JWest ()
9th: Zan ()
9th: SS ()
9th: MrConCon ()
13th: IC ()
13th: TLTC ()
13th: Scizor ()
13th: Sleeh ()

*Didn't include VoiD's Mewtwo because he used it one game and lost, but there's that too, I guess.

Kinda creepy there's not a single Cloud or Bayonetta on this.

wtf is going on

 

[Kofu]

Everybody neglects poor Lucas.

Can I talk about the boy from Nowhere for a second?

My initial impression of him wasn't very good. But now that he's been out a while and his playstyle has seen some refinement, I've warmed up to his competitive potential quite a bit.

He's probably one of the best characters at keeping opponents out, with some great rock-paper-scissors type tools that let him beat practically any option if he chooses correctly. ZAir and PK Fire allow him to keep his opponents out and ward off other projectiles (as do PSI Magnet and FSmash). His jab is frame 2 with hitboxes that extend nicely past his fist to give it some good range, making it a wonderful get-off-me move. DTilt acts as a nice mixup for jab that can occasionally lead into grabs. None of his aerials autocancel but they have pretty low landing lag and can flow into each other nicely in the air.

His grab game is scary. He has among the best grab reward in the game IMO. DThrow can be DIed but a followup is almost guaranteed if he reads the opponent's escape option, which can net a kill at higher percents. Also, he has three kill throws. If you're between 140-150% and you get grabbed by Lucas, you're probably dead. His tether grab is both a blessing and a curse. It keeps him threatening at mid-range as you try to approach but whiffing with is leaves him vulnerable.

His offstage game is strong. He's succeptible to gimps just like Ness, but ZAir makes him not nearly as reliant on PK Thunder as the other kid is which is a tremendous blessing against characters like Rosalina. You also can't cut PKT2's distance just by jumping into it, but its weaker damage allows it to be beat by well-timed attacks. He can also gimp rather well thanks to DAir, BAir, FAir, and ZAir.

If Lucas can stay in control and force the approach he does well, but when he has to go in himself he falters. ZAir is about his only "consistent" option but even that can be punished.

I think he's good and not having as many recovery issues as Ness is a godsend. But he's a very cerebral character that can't rely on one strategy against a competent opponent since all his options are at least a little exploitable.

 

[Das Koopa]

VODs helped me sort things out

Outfoxx'd Top 16 (Regional) (March 26th 2016)

Spoiler

1st: Mr. R ()
2nd: Ally ()
3rd: Zinoto ()
4th: Mew2King ()
5th: Tyroy ()
5th: Anti ( ,, )
7th: H-Man ()
7th: Viev (, )
9th: Ned ()
9th: Dark Shad ()
9th: JJROCKETS ()
9th: Colinies ()
13th: Ruins ()
13th: Ksev ()
13th: Naoto ()
13th: Sai ()

Good day for Samus mains.

 

[Big-Cat]

Smash is pretty different from other fighting games in many aspects, but rushing in when it's a 1vs1 fighting scenario is always just plain dumb. It is strange how in SF for example going in recklessly is looked down upon and solid defense is respected, while in Smash it's the opposite. A rarely seen character killing someone with a deadly confirm at <100% is hype until you see it more than 3 times. Then it's just "wow dumb when's nerf".

Can only hope that knowledge and experience spreads in the viewing community with time and people realize that xthrow to uair kills at 80% are dumb whether they're done by Diddy or Bowser. Luigi stands as a good past example, he went from hero to villain in the eyes of the community pretty swiftly simply because people got used to his gameplan. I wonder how sick these same people would become of something like Mega Man's pellets if he made appearances in every top 8, but right now Mega Man is always "hype" (note that I'm not actually looking down on Mega Man or saying that anyone should).

I guess half of this is just due to the whole upset/underdog mentality, but it's still pretty shortsighted.

As a Bowser main, let me try to say this without bias.

In terms of approaching, Diddy is by far superior to Bowser in this area. Getting a grab with Diddy requires far less tactical effort than Bowser. Bowser does not have as big of a room for error as Diddy either. It's only natural that for the effort involved to get in that the player should be reasonably rewarded.

Bayonetta, at the moment, does not go through this major effort supposedly, yet her approach is pretty bad. The only real option she has is BAir. Her jab and FTilt are SLOWER THAN BOWSER'S with hers having 8 and 11 frames of startup respectively. Bowser's are two frames slower each for comparison and he has intangible arms. DTilt and UTilt are her fastest moves with 6 frames of startup. So she really has only a handful of tools in neutral that are reliable against someone with a concept of footsies.

As for her combos, let's put that in quotes okay? Until we can absolutely prove without a shadow of a doubt that her combos are DI independent, we can't even say they're combos.

 

[DunnoBro]

Real talk putting quotes on bayonetta combos should be a bannable offense

Reminds me of when low-level players legit thought people were just DIing Hoo Ha poorly.

Her combos are in the reveal trailer lol Obviously DI effects things, but how much? Who knows but MVD would still die at zero.

Regardless, her combos aren't the core issue.

 

[Das Koopa]

Annnnd for a bonus, Battlegrounds 2 Top 16 results: (Regional) (March 26th, 2016)

Spoiler

1st: NAKAT (, )
2nd: Jbandrew ()
3rd: The Wall ()
4th: DJ Fliphop ()
5th: Karna ()
5th: AeroLink ()
7th: MegaFox ()
7th: ThisGuy ()
9th: Jerm ()
9th: SaSSy ()
9th: Whispy ()
9th: BC ()
13th: MikEffect ()
13th: HaKii ()
13th: Nicole ()
13th: iiGGy ()

Good weekend for Fox, Lucas, Samus, Ness, and Diddy. Not so good for Sheik.

 

[juddy96]

Rough overview of the day https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/126jREkId0h2H011fA0ffQTWdOnZelDTmrMeDFw2u_8k/edit?usp=sharing

 

[thehard]

Annnnd for a bonus, Battlegrounds 2 Top 16 results: (Regional) (March 26th, 2016)

Spoiler

1st: NAKAT (, )
2nd: Jbandrew ()
3rd: The Wall ()
4th: DJ Fliphop ()
5th: Karna ()
5th: AeroLink ()
7th: MegaFox ()
7th: ThisGuy ()
9th: Jerm ()
9th: SaSSy ()
9th: Whispy ()
9th: BC ()
13th: MikEffect ()
13th: HaKii ()
13th: Nicole ()
13th: iiGGy ()

Good weekend for Fox, Lucas, Samus, Ness, and Diddy. Not so good for Sheik.

Yoshi's highest result in... forever?