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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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Trifroze

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As a Bowser main, let me try to say this without bias.

In terms of approaching, Diddy is by far superior to Bowser in this area. Getting a grab with Diddy requires far less tactical effort than Bowser. Bowser does not have as big of a room for error as Diddy either. It's only natural that for the effort involved to get in that the player should be reasonably rewarded.
I get that characters like DK and Bowser now have a sort of grappler gameplan, chasing after the opponent with below average approach tools and then finally catching and bopping them, and if someone should have those kinds of options then it's characters like that. Still, when it gives characters a tool that they should be going for over all their other options in most situations, it's bad design and I don't think anyone should be hyped for it. It's just a quickfix to a problem that deserves a more thorough solution.

Also to be fair DK and Bowser are pretty fast and have good grabs, especially pivots. It's not like landing Falcon's knee or Ike's up smash.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Bayonetta is the only character that causes this level of defensive play, but she doesn't have to play that same way.
Jigglypuff in Melee, Baiken from GG has skewed defensive options, etc

C'mon, guys. I would add Metaknight to that (admittedly tiny) list above as a more immediate example, but I'm afraid ya'll would get the wrong ****ing idea.

Smooth Criminal
 
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rm88

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We'll have to give it time because, well, there's no other thing we can do right now, lol. I want to believe she won't considerably impact the game in a negative way, but yeah, at this point that's not completely out of the question. And I'm honestly a bit worried that 1.1.5 will be the last patch. And jeez, it's just so true, facing Bayo is not fun. Maybe it's my incompetence, or my characters, or both, but I don't get any "reward" for exploiting her weaknesses that are kind of vague at the moment. As a Kirby main I'm not super thrilled about this last batch of newcomers, lol.
 
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bc1910

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The highest placing Sheik at that tourney was 5th, and it wasn't even VoiD. Bit of an upset there.

So, Captain Falcon is still overrated or nah? I don't have much of an opinion but I'm curious about the general consensus now.
Overrated by the wider community and a few top players including ZeRo.

Underrated by this thread.

VoiD did not play well in that match. But I guess this shows Falcon can punish less-than-perfect Sheik play pretty well, when before she would have just gotten away with it. Tearbear was playing extremely well today too.

I do think Falcon deserves to be in lower top 20 now. He's about as good as the Pits, Greninja, Toon Link, DK, Mewtwo, Lucario and Corrin.
 
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DunnoBro

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I have absolutely no fear whatsoever this patch was the last nor did I fear 1.1.4 was the last either.

The balance team has more than proven themselves to be competent and caring enough to stay with us to make sure the potent new variables they've added to the game don't ruin it. (Though obviously not enough to give us patch notes =p)

Also, instantly winning a japanese major would definitely ring red flags even for Sakurai.

The only question is when, how, and before what tournaments. (And if they'll give that **** to duck hunt stop listening to the fuggin japanese)
 
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Shaya

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Eh, I think Falcon is probably heavily underrated at this time.
He was "stupid" when his back air and up air were killing earlier than Cloud and Charizard (almost), respectively.

But now that Sheik is not "the most relevant 100% of the time", he has an opportunity to be be seen again.
His combo game from his back air is honestly insane, we were talking about Mewtwo's fair the other day and I kinda think to myself "I'd probably take Falcon's back air instead"; sour spotting with it combos forever and with his mobility he can chain sour hits of back air like nobody else can (as in, it tends to be difficult to string sour hits of moves; not for the Captain).
His up air is still one of the best in the cast, and if it wasn't obviously better than Zero Suits before (it was, bigger hitboxes, same landing lag/AC, a lot more damage, 'tipman' sour spot) it should be super obvious now.

Terry has had break out results with Falcon often though, and then we remember the character exists. With his tournament record vastly outshining Fatality's, he is hard to not be seen as the best Falcon, yet he isn't a top level player: although he was beating and doing well against top level players today.


There isn't too much relevant Falcon play out there to observe unfortunately. But his disadvantage state is looking a lot better when considering his weight now that the all the best advantage state characters in the game bar Ryu were taken back. Luigi stopped being a roadblock to him a long time ago, he does and always has done fine against Diddy. Not sure about Rosa but I do recall Apex 2015 thoughts were she lost to him (which Ramin tried out and then we stopped thinking this).

I honestly hope to see more Falcon revival; he probably got the most out of the latest patch than any other character implicitly (this could be an interesting discussion to have though).
 
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DunnoBro

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Tearbear is an honest to god enigma. Back when Kid Icarus uprising was a thing and people found out how to abuse the game to essentially allow the equivalent of equipment + customs(slipshot tracks, wall brawlers, etc) he was using the equivalent of default mario (general stuff you got by playing story mode) and often won the tournaments iirc.

Also tangentially related thank god Sakurai wasn't given free reign of this game.

@ Patch shifts: I think greninja got the most out of the patch. Sheik was easily his main roadblock and with the meta shifting towards bayonetta, he's looking more and more favorable in the later rounds of tournaments.
 
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Wintermelon43

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Falln 3-0s VoiD

VoiD wasn't in top shape today
It isn't Void that's bad, it's his character.

But srrsly though, how viable really is Sheik at this point. She has the problem of dying early, but yet having a ton of trouble (It's almost as bad, if not as bad at this point, as Pikachu's killing problem), killing.

And her top/possibly top tier matchups...... Seem like they might be this, or around this range.

+2: RIP

+1::4ness::4greninja:(Possibly :4cloud:)

0::4sheik::4metaknight::4fox::4pikachu: (Possibly :4cloud:)

-1::4mario::4sonic::rosalina::4zss::4villager::4ryu:

-2::4diddy::4bayonetta:

That looks like the matchup spread of somebody in the Pikachu-Ness-Greninja category without a HUGELY bad matchup, but muitiple losing matchups in return.
 

Trifroze

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When you're using Falcon, you're in a constant inner battle always questioning whether his smashes and raptor boost are bad moves that should generally never be thrown out or actually just really good. I think that while Fatality is more solid in a lot of areas, he's sort of struggling with that inner battle while Tearbear has figured it all out. With Falcon's speed, conditioning tools and survivability, something like raptor boost and fsmash are honestly pretty scary and also work as great comeback tools along with his down air.

And yeah, with all the patches and nerfs that have happened it's pretty silly to think now that Falcon's back air used to kill Mario at 115% from the center of FD, and uair used to kill him somewhere around 130-135% from full jump height. Now I believe it's 135% and 150% respectively which is still above average (above in terms of strength), and the moves do so many other things as well. It's worth noting that his fsmash got nerfed at one point as well, the downwards angled one used to kill 5% earlier than the next strongest variation and now it's the weakest but yeah.
 
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Yikarur

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what the ****. No. You don't go from no losing MUs to -2s wtf
She is probably still even or +1 with most of the cast. And has no -2 for sure. This MU spread is pretty made-up and I hope no one will consider that a serious claim.
She probably loses the Sonic, ZSS, Yoshi, Rosalina and maybe the Diddy MU slightly (could still be even because her edgeguarding was what gave her the edge in this MU anyway) but she is still completely solid overall.

Sheik plays pretty differently now and their players have to get used to the nerf first. A lot of Sheiks are struggeling right now because they are not used to such a huge change in gameplan. They probably feel uncomfortable playing the character in tournament. I've seen Sheiks that were really successful before to play a lot more respectful (aka worse) against their opponent then they are used to be. I think the nerf has a huge mental effect as well.

E:

well I just posted Top8 for PPT but everyone is posting Top16 so I'll do an updated version:
1. cyve :4diddy::4bayonetta: (GF1 and GF2 only after losing WF 2:3 to Sodreks Fox with Diddy Kong)
2. Sodrek :4fox:
3. LoNg0uw :4rob::4cloud: (against Katsumis Rosalina only)
4. Katsumi :rosalina:
5. Ganis :4megaman:
5. vyQ :4mario:
7. Light :4sheik::4mario:
7. Meth :4falcon:
-
9. Fire :4falcon:
9. Sabaca :4falcon:
9. LuiS :4yoshi::4sheik: (only 1 set) :4falcon: (only 1 set)
9. Tsunayoshi :4tlink: :4corrinf:
13. Boomuki :4falcon:
13. Frieddo :4fox:
13. Koyu :4pit: :4corrinf:
13. Luigi player :4luigi: :4mewtwo:

E: lol oops, I thought there was a post between my last and this one
 
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bc1910

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It isn't Void that's bad, it's his character.

But srrsly though, how viable really is Sheik at this point. She has the problem of dying early, but yet having a ton of trouble (It's almost as bad, if not as bad at this point, as Pikachu's killing problem), killing.

And her top/possibly top tier matchups...... Seem like they might be this, or around this range.

+2: RIP

+1::4ness::4greninja:(Possibly :4cloud:)

0::4sheik::4metaknight::4fox::4pikachu: (Possibly :4cloud:)

-1::4mario::4sonic::rosalina::4zss::4villager::4ryu:

-2::4diddy::4bayonetta:

That looks like the matchup spread of somebody in the Pikachu-Ness-Greninja category without a HUGELY bad matchup, but muitiple losing matchups in return.
Ness has a horrible Rosalina MU.

This Sheik spread is wrong, by the way. There's no way this character has any -2s, and a lot of those -1s look sketchy.

I honestly hope to see more Falcon revival; he probably got the most out of the latest patch than any other character implicitly (this could be an interesting discussion to have though).
Contest is between :4falcon::4greninja::4yoshi: IMO.

All three were roadblocked badly by Sheik, but were otherwise solid characters. With Sheik being not only worse but less dominant, they should all get their chance to shine. It's worth examining what else they contend with.

Falcon still has a pretty bad Pika MU and I can't see the MK MU being much better. Not sure if he has any -2s but he probably has the "worst -1s" out of this group. And yes, I know Pika is bad, and yes, I know it's much better to have a bad MU with an uncommon character than the best in the game. Though it's worth noting Bayo looks liable to stomp Falcon while both Greninja and Yoshi do okay.

I can't pretend to know anything about Yoshi's MUs but it's impossible to ignore the complete dearth of results from this character. He also has a few issues with kill setups... neither Yoshi nor Falcon are fans of the kill confirm meta, actually. Also I don't know where Yoshi beating Sheik is coming from but I find that unlikely, that would have meant he still did well pre-patch and results should have followed from this.

Greninja still contends with... um... low representation, to be honest. On paper I'm confident he's the best of the three. In practice iStudy's BEAST 6 placement is arguably a better singular result than anything Falcon has accomplished (Yoshi goes without saying) but Falcon has greater consistency with Tearbear and Fatality. Though it's worth noting that iStudy gets top 3 at pretty much every Avalon which usually has around 150 entrants. MU spread looks the most balanced but he lacks meaningful advantages against the top tiers. Genuine question - can Falcon claim any meaningful advantages either?
Oh and Greninja got his own buffs as well lol. Nowhere near as important as the meta shift from the Sheik nerf but the buffs still helped him in the right places (OoS game, recovery and general "clunkiness").

Biggest immediate gain from the patch will be Falcon. Biggest long-term gain should be Greninja. All IMO of course.
 
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Yikarur

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Yoshi wasn't roadblocked by Sheik at all.. the MU was already arguably even.
Yoshis Problem is Diddy Kong and Cloud. I think the Cloud MU is not that bad but you have to lab the MU like 20 times as much as Cloud has to. Everyone can pick up Cloud and beat Yoshi because you only need to know upair in this MU, while Yoshi has to lab this MU hard or he gets rekked.
 

Espy Rose

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Even post nerf, I doubt that Sonic has any business having a winning MU vs. Sheik.
An even MU is something that sounds more in line now. He probably lost the MU prior to the nerf. :applejack:
 

Diddy Kong

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Am actually quite convined Diddy > Sheik now, even if it's just 55-45. The advantage in neutral definitely shows off right now.
 

Yikarur

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Ho (UK Sheik) said that he was going about even with Ixis (Sonic) all the time before but after the patch he gets bodied pretty hard. He told me that the needle nerf is a hugeee loss in that MU.
 

Espy Rose

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User was warned for this post
Ixis is the better player then, and Sheik's qualities pre-patch were helping Ho sneak out the wins. :applejack:
 
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DunnoBro

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That makes sense. That MU was always "hard to kill sonic but shuts him down with needles."

Can't edgeguard him, he can spring out of like everything, and she's never killing him off his spring landings.

I think people really underestimate how huge the sheik nerfs were. Despite it coming into play rather late, the fact she could kill you off a grab was huge and why she won a large majority of the MUs she did.

She's still a fine character, definitely at least high tier but matchups and character placing in this game is defined largely by how well you kill. Sheik was the best because she had the best neutral + a really consistent kill method. Off grabs.

Her only saving grace for kills now are edgeguards, and ledge get-ups which are wayyyy more MU specific.

Like really, remember when we were talking about how good pikachu's neutral and edgeguarding was but his lack of kill confirms held him back? Same thing's gonna happen for sheik. Mark my words.
 

Trifroze

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Another way to paint the picture is to think about all those times Sheiks missed their 50:50 window and had to get the opponent to ~180% and then finish them off with fair. That's every stock now.

yes hyperbole because bouncing fish and up smash
 

Smog Frog

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yo so i found this really cool

what characters benefit the most from consistent frame perfect inputs?
 

Dre89

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I'm pretty sure the recent DLC was deliberately overtuned to entice people into buying it.

Just looking at Cloud, many of his design choices are not in line with the design philosophy of the past.

For starters, swordies have traditionally had their ranged disjoint balanced out by poor frame data and mobility, but Cloud has good mobility and frame data on top of massive range.

That alone should raise eyebrows. They then give him a projectile which the other long ranged swordies didn't get.

They also give him a buff mechanic on top of an already strong kit. Compare his buff mechanic to Shulk's, whose 'buffs' all have drawbacks to them. Cloud not only gets enhanced stats, but also enhanced specials with no drawbacks at all.

His charge mechanic is by far the best in the game too. He takes Mac's ability to charge it passively, getting rewarded for both dealing and taking damage. He also then gets to charge it manually, having it also be lagless and non-commital. This mechanic also forces people to approach him, removing the only other weakness long range swordies have.

They didn't give him a grab game, but it's not really a meaningful weakness seeing as he kills before most champions kill with their grab kill confirms anyway.

Apparently they thought giving him a situationally bad recovery would balance this all out. It's funny because when you look at Mac not only does he have a permanently bad recovery, but also no air game. Clearly in the past they thought a permanently bad recovery was not enough to balance out overtuning in certain areas. But now in the case of a character with overtuned base stats, a buff mechanic that buffs already overtuned stats and enhances his specials, with no drawbacks that has free ways to charge, early KOs and a simple playstyle they thought giving him a situationally bad recovery would be enough to balance this all out.
 
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MistressRemilia

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yo so i found this really cool

what characters benefit the most from consistent frame perfect inputs?
I'm leaving this thread.
Call me when the discussion about it is done.
Seriously tho it's been not a long amount of time & i'm already sick of arguments about Bidou.
 

BlazGreen

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I'm pretty sure the recent DLC was deliberately overtuned to entice people into buying it.
Do you really think people need a reason to buy Cloud? He's not some unknown character from a long dead franchise or something. People would buy him regardless of the tier he's in since a) he's Cloud and b) casuals outnumber competitive players by a big margin and they certainly wouldn't care if he's good at 1v1s or not.

The only character you could really make that claim for would be Corrin since hardly anyone knew who he was and yet he's not OP and definitely not on Cloud's level so that doesn't work. Bayonetta was the ballot winner so of course people are going to buy her regardless.

Cloud is good because Sakurai wanted him to be easy to pick up and play since he's a hugely popular character and that's it.
 

Dre89

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Do you really think people need a reason to buy Cloud? He's not some unknown character from a long dead franchise or something. People would buy him regardless of the tier he's in since a) he's Cloud and b) casuals outnumber competitive players by a big margin and they certainly wouldn't care if he's good at 1v1s or not.

The only character you could really make that claim for would be Corrin since hardly anyone knew who he was and yet he's not OP and definitely not on Cloud's level so that doesn't work. Bayonetta was the ballot winner so of course people are going to buy her regardless.

Cloud is good because Sakurai wanted him to be easy to pick up and play since he's a hugely popular character and that's it.
Actually yes seeing as none of his games were on a Nintendo console. Many people who are young or don't play other consoles probably didn't know much about him.

Also Bayonetta was only the ballot winner in Europe (despite Bayonetta 2 only selling 200k copies there). She wasn't the most popular character overall, just the most popular 'realisable' character, whatever that means.

But I'm not saying they were deliberately overturned due to fandom obscurity. I'm just saying it because looking at Cloud's design clearly several balancing restraints that have been applied to other characters clearly haven't been to him, so it's most likely intentional.
 
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Man Li Gi

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Fow just made it look impossible for DK to recover off stage

edit: pk thunder, pk fire, d smash and dair just eat dongcopter alive jesus
I didn't see the match, but I assume Larry panic jumped and was eye level with the stage and just kept trying to up b. Or he was set up into it with pk thunder. Bair and uair work wonders to null that move but pk fire is hard for DK to stop. Dsmash is bad since DK has the worst ledge options. Still, DK should win the MU.
 

PK Gaming

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2GGT FOW Saga Top 16 (Large Regional, March 26th 2016)

1st: Nairo (:4zss:)
2nd: Larry Lurr (:4fox::4mario::4dk:)
3rd: Tearbear (:4falcon::4lucas:)
4th: FOW (:4ness:)
5th: Falln (:rosalina:)
5th: K9 (:4sheik:)
7th: VoiD (:4sheik:)
7th: 3xA (:4tlink:)
9th: JWest (:4samus:)
9th: Zan (:4tlink:)
9th: SS (:4villager:)
9th: MrConCon (:4luigi:)
13th: IC (:4diddy:)
13th: TLTC (:4palutena:)
13th: Scizor (:4link:)
13th: Sleeh (:4diddy:)

*Didn't include VoiD's Mewtwo because he used it one game and lost, but there's that too, I guess.
What an incredibly sexy top 16. 16 different characters, high placings from Palutena/Link and Falcon actually placing 3rd.

I expect this trend to continue as more and more tournaments are populated with various different characters.
 
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Shady Shaymin

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I'm pretty sure the recent DLC was deliberately overtuned to entice people into buying it.

Just looking at Cloud, many of his design choices are not in line with the design philosophy of the past.

For starters, swordies have traditionally had their ranged disjoint balanced out by poor frame data and mobility, but Cloud has good mobility and frame data on top of massive range.

That alone should raise eyebrows. They then give him a projectile which the other long ranged swordies didn't get.

They also give him a buff mechanic on top of an already strong kit. Compare his buff mechanic to Shulk's, whose 'buffs' all have drawbacks to them. Cloud not only gets enhanced stats, but also enhanced specials with no drawbacks at all.

His charge mechanic is by far the best in the game too. He takes Mac's ability to charge it passively, getting rewarded for both dealing and taking damage. He also then gets to charge it manually, having it also be lagless and non-commital. This mechanic also forces people to approach him, removing the only other weakness long range swordies have.


They didn't give him a grab game, but it's not really a meaningful weakness seeing as he kills before most champions kill with their grab kill confirms anyway.

Apparently they thought giving him a situationally bad recovery would balance this all out. It's funny because when you look at Mac not only does he have a permanently bad recovery, but also no air game. Clearly in the past they thought a permanently bad recovery was not enough to balance out overtuning in certain areas. But now in the case of a character with overtuned base stats, a buff mechanic that buffs already overtuned stats and enhances his specials, with no drawbacks that has free ways to charge, early KOs and a simple playstyle they thought giving him a situationally bad recovery would be enough to balance this all out.
This is precisely the issue with Cloud. No other character in this game has the ability to throw out those insane hitboxes without significantly more startup or endlag. For a sword so big, he's unreasonably hard to punish.

And to those of you who say it'd be impossible to make bayonetta balanced while also keeping her fun to play...lol. By saying that, not only are you acknowledging that she is broken, but you're really just highlighting the fact that bayonetta is only fun to play because of how broken she is. No character is ever as fun to play after a nerf, have you ever switched to an inferior fighter and had fun doing it? Nothing in her design suggests that she has to be broken. Her "design" is just a versatile combo based fighter with a strong punish options. I don't know why that means she has to have an insane kill confirm that can be landed from a variety of percents, crazy disjoint and frame data on the best combo starter in the game, and a counter that gives enough time to land two smash attacks at once.

I think lowering the duration of witch time, adding more endlag to it as well as some of her grounded moves, and adusting the hitstun on her aerial combos so that they can't kill so early and can be beaten out by more frame-fast aerials like Mario's nair would all be completely reasonable and probably keep her somewhere in the high tier anyway.
 

Big-Cat

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I get that characters like DK and Bowser now have a sort of grappler gameplan, chasing after the opponent with below average approach tools and then finally catching and bopping them, and if someone should have those kinds of options then it's characters like that. Still, when it gives characters a tool that they should be going for over all their other options in most situations, it's bad design and I don't think anyone should be hyped for it. It's just a quickfix to a problem that deserves a more thorough solution.

Also to be fair DK and Bowser are pretty fast and have good grabs, especially pivots. It's not like landing Falcon's knee or Ike's up smash.
Hence why Showtime got the change it did. It over centralized his gameplan. The same happened to Luigi, but at a larger scale.
 

Solfiner

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I think Cloud's frame data is fine for the most part, but that up air is ridiculous. Dair is also pretty filthy.
 

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Since we are talking about Falcon, I'll put my two cents about something I realized about how his "optimal play" looks like. For a long time, people have been conflicted about Falcon. Although Falcon is the most popular character in the game (or top 3 at least), has one of the best punish games, and one of the best movement options, he just doesn't have results. Although I disagree with alot of what Zero puts out on Youtube (like I seriously unsubbed his channel after watching half of the bayo video, but that's a topic for another time) he does make a decent point about what the Falcon metagame is lacking. Essentially, he says that most top level Falcons focus too much on playing optimally, always going for safe, guaranteed punishes and never really mixing up his play style. Playing that way is smarter when talking about Shiek or ZSS because their bread and butter, safe punishes and combos work so well. Not so much the case with Falcon. What Falcon thrives is honestly being unpredictable, punishing randomly, and in different ways, or situations. Zero says that this is what the top level Falcons don't do, and I completely agree. Funny enough, Tearbear claims that he plays a "boring Falcon" in that he goes for bair walling, and safe guaranteed d throw to uair strings. He played PHENOMENALLY against Fow, by being unpredictable (he got Fow with a freakin Falcon Punch for crying out loud!) to the point that the commentators noted it. No one could predict what Tearbear was about to do in that match. With Shiek finally not a roadblock (went from a -2 to a -1 MU), maybe Falcon can finally get some decent tourney placings (which early results point to). Developing a strong Falcon punish game is more important that perfect pivoting (or Bidou tech) for the future of Falcon meta imo.
 

Illuminose

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stuff from Saturday's tournaments:

FOW Saga
Why does Larry Lurr have a Mario that looks like a main for months? I suppose he plays with Zenyou a lot, but in general his Mario is actually insanely good. Nairo looked pretty good, but it does kinda seem like he's getting more and more 'carried' (emphasis on the quotes) by ZSS's punish game as the game develops. People are really figuring out ZSS's neutral, but I think we forget that her punish game is still super bonkers lol. This and what I saw of Choco over the weekend pretty much convinced me that ZSS is not dropping from top 5 any time soon and imo has a solid 4th spot. nair -> down b is brutal, dsmash punishes are brutal, and dthrow uair still exists for kills (sigh). ZSS players are getting a lot more creative and consistent with punishes too, especially off paralyzer (paralyzer -> down b, up b on reaction consistently after anti started doing it) and air dodge baits (nairo finally doing the down b out of up airs). It really does feel like she's the same character with ladders toned down and we're just going to ZSS players become more creative/optimized with their punishes, which is pretty cool.

Outfoxx'd
Mr. R is so good at this game lol. It's almost like this patch was a power-up for him; he was one of the last Sheiks to really learn the 50/50 anyways, and the needles nerf means that his pressure-oriented style is a lot more optimal. I'm still not sure how he 6-0'd Ally because his record against Ally before this was extremely bad and he lost to him like a few days ago, but the way Mr. R plays Sheik will easily make him the best Sheik in this patch, imo. Her nerfs are a big deal, but I'm kind of feeling what Mr. R was saying last week tbh: Sheik is the best character with perfect play. She has the frame data, safety, combos, recovery, mobility, the infinite options...Sheik didn't really lose any of this, and it's actually making me pretty optimistic. I don't think Sheik is the practical best character or even close to it, but it's a pretty interesting line of thought.

Apart from things I said, there was stuff like Tearbear getting 3rd, yet another Toon Link player almost freeing up Nairo, and Yoshi getting 3rd (!) at a stacked Texas regional. There's only one character stopping this metagame from looking really fun and balanced....

:4bayonetta2:

At least people are figuring out the cringe tyroy Bayonetta style (aka spam Witch Twist and Witch Time hoping they work even though Witch Twist is completely unpunishable so.....) but this character is utterly bonkers in the hands of virtually anyone who invests time in learning her neutral game, which is much better than many keep insisting. I feel like there definitely are legitimate tactics (ANTi decided to do nothing but grab and actually beat tyroy pretty solidly when he did that) to fight her, but she kind of marginalizes these tactics by being a more ridiculous Brawl Ice Climbers. ZeRo's video is extremely on point about this character so I don't really have much more to say, but Bayonetta in her current state is imo a few things: she punishes you for playing the game normally, she's not overrated, and she's indisputably #1 in the game.
 

sedrf

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I compare bayoneta to algol or hilde in soul calibur 4. They had a similar case and reception from the soul calibur community.
Algol had an insane juggle game and hilda had a zero to death combo where if an oppone tis hit they would, get comboed off the stage. Seems familiar. Anyway tos would ban them both outside of evo where hilda was allowed. While hilda didn't make top 8, people hated the combo so much players of her were booed excessively on stage. Hilda was eventually unbanned due to people figuring out tech to deal with her. But she was late banned due to people not attending tournies where she was present. What I'm saying is despite bayo showing she is perfectley beatable people hate fighting a charcter so much they will out discourage doing anything with her. This also goes agaisnt the narrative that fgc players "deal" with **** like this(see chris g's domminance/ultra elena)
is bayonetta fine?
Idk ,but she has shown many weaknesses due to laggy moves,floaty nature, and in some case issues killing stocks
 

Shouxiao

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Apr 11, 2013
Messages
213
I am like what I am seeing from the meta these days. I think a lot of characters have more potential then people think. When more future patches come the only thing I see happening is high tiers getting tone down and low tiers getting buffs/overhauls to make them better.

Compare Smash 4 on 3DS release to Smash 4 now. The gap between the tiers has closed significantly. Yes some characters are going to be rank higher but characters that are consider lower tier have a good fighting chance now. Also at times it can be gameplay mechanic changes that really effect the meta/character match ups. Look what the shield stun changes did.

Bayonetta is considered the best by many right now but she is not unbeatable like people think she is.
 

Shady Shaymin

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No one is saying she is unbeatable. Almost everyone who criticizes her puts the disclaimer that she IS beatable. Even brawl Metaknight was beatable. By definition, any character who has the ability to be knocked off the stage and hit to the blast zone is "beatable" at top level smash play. It's another cowardly way for Bayonetta mains to distract from the real underlying issue. Perhaps even a strawman, if you will.

Also, does anyone else take issue with the fact that we have low-level Bayonetta players basically responding the the concerns of the best Smash 4 player in the world by just saying "learn the matchup"? Do they really think the man himself TSM ZeRo has not already spent hours doing that? Some people here just baffle me.
 

sedrf

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User was warned for this post; double post
so watching nor cal regionals, Apologyman isn't that bad of a lucario.
So that's neat

Maybe people aren't used to bayo. Even then the more"fraudulent" bayos are falling off.
 
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juddy96

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Top 6 of MARS 2016, a European regional, is about to start https://www.twitch.tv/smashonsud

Winners Finals J. Miller :4luigi: vs. Phogos :4diddy:
Losers Quarters Deimos :4zss:/:4ness: vs. Griffith :4bayonetta2:
Losers Quarters Elexiao :4greninja:/:4pacman: vs. Homika :rosalina:

7th place Glutonny :4bayonetta2:/:4falcon: Mana :4tlink:
 
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Shouxiao

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Joined
Apr 11, 2013
Messages
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As far as Bayonetta goes I think she should be tone down a bit(like what happen with Diddy, Zero Suit Samus, and Sheik) but I say she is not the god tier people think she. I think people really just need more time to figure things out.
 

C0rvus

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I think ZeRo made some decent points in his video, but he definitely undersold how dominant Sheik was in the metagame. Yes, Sheik was winning because top level players play her. But you cannot honestly tell me that playing against Sheik was better than playing against Bayonetta. I would rather play lame and have a shot than get effortlessly walled out by Needles and Sheik's ridiculously good frame data. Bayonetta can feel like an uphill struggle, but Sheik could make you feel completely hopeless. And pre-patch Diddy? Forget that monster.

Until Bayos start placing higher via players that are suspect, I'm not calling anything. Salem, Pink Fresh, etc are good players. If they place well playing a top tier, that makes perfect sense. I do think she's currently the best character in the game, but someone has to be.
 

Baby_Sneak

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I have a Theory: top players are "complaining"
About bayo in order to get her nerfed, but they don't actually think she's that bad. They know Nintendo listens to this community and will enact decisions based on what we say.
 
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