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Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

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RedBeefBaron

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Oh wow Elexiao just did an amazing bracket reset on Phogos.

I'm still not sure how to feel about the Greninja vs Diddy MU.
The shadow sneak cancel looks like it has a lot of utility against a good portion of the top tiers, Diddy included. Greninja has a real chance to shine now with there being fewer shieks.
 

bc1910

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The shadow sneak cancel looks like it has a lot of utility against a good portion of the top tiers, Diddy included. Greninja has a real chance to shine now with there being fewer shieks.
What moves was he using it on? I've never found it useful against Diddy, you can't use it on Usmash. Works on Fsmash though.

I think Greninja/Diddy is in Diddy's favour but there's ample evidence to the contrary.
 
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FullMoon

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Yeah if there's one thing I noticed is that since a lot of Diddy's kill moves are multi-hit (Up/Forward Smash mainly), SSHC can actually help Greninja last longer against him and build rage.

Elexiao sure managed to live up to really high percentages very often.
 

FullMoon

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And Phogos won 3-1. Second place for Greninja (and Pac-Man too I suppose) is pretty good though.

Diddy MU is either even or slightly in his favor, I'm inclined to say it's in his favor just because of banana, that really messes Greninja up.
 
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Dre89

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Combined top 16 usage results from 2GGT, OUTFOXX'D, PPT, and BG2. (Still waiting on MARS and The Arena)

Used:
:4diddy:x9
:4fox:x8
:4falcon:x6
:4sheik:x6
:4mario:x5
:4zss:x4
:4bayonetta:x4
:4ness:x3
:4tlink:x3
:4luigi:x3
:4lucas:x3
:rosalina:x2
:4cloud:x2
:4samus:x2
:4villager:x2
:4rob:x2
:4yoshi:x2
:4corrin:x2
:4palutena:
:4link:
:4dk:
:4sonic:
:4ryu:
:4littlemac:
:4metaknight:
:4robinm:
:4megaman:
:4pit:
:4mewtwo:

Not Used:
:4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dedede::4darkpit::4drmario::4duckhunt::4falco::4ganondorf::4greninja::4myfriends::4jigglypuff::4kirby::4lucario::4lucina::4marth::4gaw::4olimar::4pacman::4peach::4pikachu::4feroy::4shulk::4wario::4wiifit::4zelda::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:


Hey, remember that time everyone was 100% sure that :4bayonetta::4cloud::rosalina: was the new meta?

So apparently it's too soon to call for for Bayonetta nerfs, but it's not too soon to make judgements over the future of the meta and assume she won't get played more and dominate.
 
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HoSmash4

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Ixis is the better player then, and Sheik's qualities pre-patch were helping Ho sneak out the wins. :applejack:
Well... for sure because sheik's strengths in the matchup were nerfed and ixis is the better player? And technically my placing at the tournament series post-patch was higher than i ever achieved pre-patch.

I dont know why you're overseeing the statement where I was significantly worse vs Ixis after the patch. Yes I may have been using sheik's overpowering options in the matchup vs sonic pre-patch but these options were removed... not changed... just removed.

Each of sheik's nerfs hit her in the sonic matchup hard.

1. Needle range nerf means Sheik has to deal with Sonic's spindash mixups when pre-patch needle range was enough for sheik not to deal with the scenario as frequently.
2. Fair range reduction makes attempting to hit sonic even harder
3. Downthrow 50/50 still exists as a kill confirm at certain percentages, but it is completely gone versus Sonic.
4. Forward throw angle change and knockback increase means Sonic's physics allows him to escape fthrow bouncing fish more easily.

My main gripe right now is it is very hard to kill Sonic at this point. Only reliable kill setup is needles to bouncing fish. Sheik has kill 50/50s off ftilt/dtilt but they're not as easily landed as you think as the kill percent ranges are smaller than the downthrow kill % ranges as well as obviously losing to shield and sonic being a extremely hard character to catch in tilt range. Sheik has kill 50/50s off fair bair and nair but landing with sheik's aerials isnt the greatest idea versus Sonic.

I think Sheik's main problem issue at the moment is that she has limited conversions from neutral to kill results. What I mean by this is she has 0 safe moves (Safe being, uair, bair, fair, nair, ftilt, dtilt) that can kill instantly off a whiff punish (I.E bad approach) or off a read off a jump (Several moves like fox/zss/bayonetta/villager/luigi bair, ness uair). Meaning even at 170%, she wont be killing instantly off neutral using her safe pokes.

Sheik is definitely still one of the best in the game at converting neutral in a advantageous position on top of having an amazing disadvantageous state but I'm sure she'd prefer to convert win in neutral into a ensured kill like the majority of the characters in the game can.

Sheik's disadvantageous state though actually got hit. 84->81 weight nerf might be more signifcant than we think. Furthermore with her reduced kill potential, she is feeding rage to the opponents... which happened to Void when a max-rage raptor boost killed him... hitting at 69%.

Sheik has an amazing neutral for sure, but neutral is still a guessing game and Sheik cannot win every trade in neutral even with perfect play because it becomes a rock paper scissor scenario... and Sheik has to win RPS a few more times than other top tiers.

As an example, I believe that Mr.R has the better neutral than Void, whilst Void had the better kill setups/punish game. Mr.R beat Ally this weekend whilst Void got 7th at 2GGT. The amount of times the sheik player is able to be able to win neutral may possibly be a better factor for sheik play rather than being 'more creative with kill setups'
 
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Thinkaman

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So apparently it's too soon to call for for Bayonetta nerfs, but it's not too soon to make judgements over the future of the meta and assume she won't get played more and dominate.
Hey man, the moment we start getting results from time periods later than the present, I'll start posting 'em.
 

Das Koopa

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MARS 2016 Top 16 (Regional) (March 26th-27th)

VODs, Twitch chat (?!?), and Smashboards rankings were remarkably useful here.

1st: Phogos (:4diddy:)
2nd: Elexiao (:4greninja:,:4pacman:)
3rd: J. Miller (:4luigi:)
4th: Griffith (:4bayonetta2:)
5th: Deimos (:4zss:,:4ness:)
5th: Homika (:rosalina:)
7th: Mana (:4tlink:)
7th: Glutonny (:4bayonetta2:,:4falcon:)
9th: Devskil (:4bayonetta2:)
9th: Pur Gars (:4lucario:)
9th: Zudenka (:4yoshi:)
9th: Anragon (:4falco:,:4ryu:)
13th: Dakou (:4lucas:)
13th: Yoren (:4cloud2:)
13th: Greil (:4bayonetta2:)
13th: Yoyod (:4zss:)
 

HoSmash4

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MARS 2016 Top 16 (Regional) (March 26th-27th)

VODs, Twitch chat (?!?), and Smashboards rankings were remarkably useful here.

1st: Phogos (:4diddy:)
2nd: Elexiao (:4greninja:,:4pacman:)
3rd: J. Miller (:4luigi:)
4th: Griffith (:4bayonetta2:)
5th: Deimos (:4zss:,:4ness:)
5th: Homika (:rosalina:)
7th: Mana (:4tlink:)
7th: Glutonny (:4bayonetta2:,:4falcon:)
9th: Devskil (:4bayonetta2:)
9th: Pur Gars (:4lucario:)
9th: Zudenka (:4yoshi:)
9th: Anragon (:4falco:,:4ryu:)
13th: Dakou (:4lucas:)
13th: Yoren (:4cloud2:)
13th: Greil (:4bayonetta2:)
13th: Yoyod (:4zss:)
No Sheik top 16, mind Griffith/Yoren didn't use them on stream at least.
 

Das Koopa

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Originally I had Yoren listed with Sheik but when I looked through the VODs he only used Cloud. It's a fickle time for some mains.

I'm also not totally sure on Dakou, but research turns up a French player who used Lucas in Brawl by the tag of "et Dakou", and there are videos of a 4-game match of a guy named Otakuni vs. Dakou. It was posted in December annnd "Go!" was "Partez!", so it's also french, leading me to believe Dakou is some long-time Lucas main.
 

Yonder

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So with Mars, Luigi has had 4 top 16 placements, with one being in the top 3. So he was also used about the 7th most in terms of character usage. That's pretty decent for a character whose metagame has stagnates after the nerf. I suppose he still holds water as a high tier.

Other notable that were starting on the decline were Lucas, Yoshi (I guess with his first placement at the Wall in forever) and especially Falcon. I felt this character was going down for his super linear gameplay but I was proven otherwise with a whopping 6 placements, wow!

It's a shame M2 didn't get to shine given his rise, but Blue or Mew^2 wasn't there so fair enough . Void used him but lost with him apparently so idk if that counts for much. Unless the game with him was really close and not a total sweep.
 

Das Koopa

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Regi still uses G&W apparently.

Edit: Regi 2-0s Question. Regi makes G&W look good
 
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Djent

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OK, so who does :4tlink: actually lose to that could keep him out of (the bottom of) high tier? He's been continuously pulling results that are at least comparable to the other characters in that grouping. He probably loses hard to Bayonetta; the results are certainly in her favor. Plus, I'd argue that pitting a character that struggles vs. shields against one with a brilliant OoS option that nets massive damage and even kills favors the latter in theory as well. Rosalina might be awful too but I'd kind of like to see this actually played out at a high level before I conclude that. Going by results, MK was pretty bad but still winnable pre-patch, but I'm not sure how the MK nerfs affect this match. Otherwise, I really can't see this guy losing anything worse than -1 right now. And since characters like Ness and Villager aren't disqualified from a lower A ranking by one or two bad MUs, I don't think TL should be either. But maybe he struggles against other characters that I'm not aware of.
 
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Megamang

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Losing to a bunch of characters -1 isn't damning, of course, but it isn't the mark of a top or even high tier character in a lot of ways. Such is the balance of smash 4.,
 

Das Koopa

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Bayonetta vs. Rosalina - the Puff/Peach of Smash 4.
 

Djent

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Megamang Megamang Of course, but what I meant to imply by "no worse than" is that he might go even with some good characters as well.

Flux0r Flux0r Yes, but it was not well attended (~60 people, and no harder than their weeklies in terms of competition).
 

Das Koopa

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Javi 2-1s Hyuuga using Cloud. Ohhh dear.

Edit: Then Leo ends the life of some poor Sheik main lol
 
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FullMoon

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Combined top 16 usage results from 2GGT, OUTFOXX'D, PPT, and BG2. (Still waiting on MARS and The Arena)

Used:
:4diddy:x9
:4fox:x8
:4falcon:x6
:4sheik:x6
:4mario:x5
:4zss:x4
:4bayonetta:x4
:4ness:x3
:4tlink:x3
:4luigi:x3
:4lucas:x3
:rosalina:x2
:4cloud:x2
:4samus:x2
:4villager:x2
:4rob:x2
:4yoshi:x2
:4corrin:x2
:4palutena:
:4link:
:4dk:
:4sonic:
:4ryu:
:4littlemac:
:4metaknight:
:4robinm:
:4megaman:
:4pit:
:4mewtwo:

Not Used:
:4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dedede::4darkpit::4drmario::4duckhunt::4falco::4ganondorf::4greninja::4myfriends::4jigglypuff::4kirby::4lucario::4lucina::4marth::4gaw::4olimar::4pacman::4peach::4pikachu::4feroy::4shulk::4wario::4wiifit::4zelda::4miibrawl::4miigun::4miisword:


Hey, remember that time everyone was 100% sure that :4bayonetta::4cloud::rosalina: was the new meta?

Funny thing now is that thanks to MARS Bayonetta now is tied with Fox for second most frequent character in top 16

Oops.
 

Das Koopa

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Pollo (Bowser main) beats Waymas (best Mexican Wario) in Loser's Bracket. Waymas out at 17th. Sad to see :/
 

sedrf

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On the arena stream: Mr r and esam are confirmed for smash factor 5.
 

bc1910

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And Phogos won 3-1. Second place for Greninja (and Pac-Man too I suppose) is pretty good though.

Diddy MU is either even or slightly in his favor, I'm inclined to say it's in his favor just because of banana, that really messes Greninja up.
Eh, banana is alright. Greninja has a fast dash attack which he can use to safely pick it up. I think he's one of the best characters at fighting "Diddy holding a banana" because shurikens outrange his banana tosses (though Monkey Flip is annoying here; more on that below) and SHFF Nair/Fair are -4/-5 on block, which is too safe for banana OoS to punish (Diddy throws it on frame 7). Any attempt by Diddy to throw the banana at Greninja's shield and link into a grab, Greninja can jump out of. You need quick reactions but you can get a guaranteed Nair/Fair every time. The only annoying thing about the banana is that when Greninja is holding it, he isn't threatening. He throws it so high up and it usually goes sailing over Diddy's head.

Diddy NOT holding a banana is worse because Fair shuts down Greninja's entire short hop game by itself.

Grounded Monkey Flip is a massive reason why this MU is hard IMO. Diddy can soft read shurikens and kick Greninja in the face for 12%, and probably be safe if he misses. Any attempt to charge the shuriken can be met with Monkey Flip on reaction. This is another reason why Greninja holding the banana isn't threatening - trying to zone Diddy with shurikens can still be answered easily with MF. It's notable that when iStudy beat MVD, MVD was using aerial MF a lot (which Greninja will Usmash all day) but wasn't using the grounded version that gives the frog trouble.
 

Shady Shaymin

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I know this meta has its jank, but good lord, what a time to be playing Smash 4. If these placings and tourney results continue, I will be very optimistic about the future of this game. As someone who currently doesn't have a main, I feel like I have so many options now.
 

Das Koopa

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Brief research indicates Chag is a Sheik main EDIT: Nope, Bayonetta main.

Update: Leo vs. Regi is Winners Finals :O
 
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Trifroze

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I am getting mildly enraged by all the "x doesn't work anymore after the patch" comments when x actually never worked to begin with and wasn't even touched in any meaningful way in the patch. Or for that matter "x now works" when it always did. People are flipping over how ZSS' ladder shockingly doesn't kill anymore or how Samus can get follow ups out of her dash attack (!)
 

Illuminose

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Poor choice of words maybe....but @Nairo you virtually repeated the whole point I was making. I think that ZSS is becoming more punish-reliant and that what I'm seeing of your play indicates this (as THE Zero Suit main). I said emphasis on the quotes because I didn't want people to take the word carried and attach it to Nairo as a skilled player who utilizes many of Zero Suit's tools to their full potential and is good at the game. There was no personal attack, no laced 'salt' or call out l whatever anyone wants to call it. It's interesting to me how play develops as people adapt. I'm not surprised that people are figuring out ZSS's neutral either because it's limited. The point of what I was saying is that the impact and potency of Zero Suit's punish game is being amplified as people figure out her neutral, to the point where I have trouble seeing her drop off as some have predicted. It's a point that makes sense and shouldn't be underscored by petty nonsense, so putting this out there.

To say something relevant...
OK, so who does :4tlink: actually lose to that could keep him out of (the bottom of) high tier? He's been continuously pulling results that are at least comparable to the other characters in that grouping. He probably loses hard to Bayonetta; the results are certainly in her favor. Plus, I'd argue that pitting a character that struggles vs. shields against one with a brilliant OoS option that nets massive damage and even kills favors the latter in theory as well. Rosalina might be awful too but I'd kind of like to see this actually played out at a high level before I conclude that. Going by results, MK was pretty bad but still winnable pre-patch, but I'm not sure how the MK nerfs affect this match. Otherwise, I really can't see this guy losing anything worse than -1 right now. And since characters like Ness and Villager aren't disqualified from a lower A ranking by one or two bad MUs, I don't think TL should be either. But maybe he struggles against other characters that I'm not aware of.
I personally think TL is very good, but I get where the detractors are coming from. Toon Link has like bottom 5 oos without a bomb, and he's not good against shield himself. Toon Link is pretty non-threatening without a bomb tbh, and the bomb pull is pretty laggy so what you can do against Toon Link is employ smart shielding and pressure him so that he can't pull bombs. Sheik is really good at this and it's why the matchup sucks even still despite nerfs. Toon Link's Rosa and Cloud matchups are also kind of...abysmal for a variety of reasons, mostly range-related and possessing properties that prevent Toon Link from accomplishing his goals with pressure effectively. You're working with two pretty terrible top 3 matchups right here. But Toon Link has serviceable matchups against many characters like Diddy, Bayonetta, Fox, Mario, etc and is actually a very threatening character that racks up damage quick, is slippery, and has powerful kill confirms. You also don't need to be Hyuga to win with Toon Link; the campy style works and has proven high level results in Hayato and Sigma. I guess you could say the thing holding him back in the eyes of some is that on paper and in a vacuum, a lot of Toon Link looks mediocre. Whatever range, meh frame data, bad against shield, bad oos without bomb, mediocre landing options (this is a real problem though lol), and other things people complain about; however, Toon Link is really solid and effective as a cohesive package. A lot of people look at things (especially matchups and character viability) pretty linearly in Smash.
 

Das Koopa

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I let out an inner primal roar every time a Bayonetta is knocked out of a tournament

#Expose5.99
 

NotLiquid

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I let out an inner primal roar every time a Bayonetta is knocked out of a tournament

#Expose5.99
It's a bit of a shame that this is a character that can't really win with people. With as much flack as top pros has been giving her, with very few seemingly speaking for her, the character has caught a stigma so fast that either she's someone who will get jeered at for winning or humiliated for losing.

Then again I suppose this is how Sheik mains felt.
 

wedl!!

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people just irrationally hate the top tiers that are more top tier than theirs, even if they aren't actually as gamebreaking (or whatever) as people claim
 
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Das Koopa

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It's a bit of a shame that this is a character that can't really win with people. With as much flack as top pros has been giving her, with very few seemingly speaking for her, the character has caught a stigma so fast that either she's someone who will get jeered at for winning or humiliated for losing.

Then again I suppose this is how Sheik mains felt.
I don't even think she's the best character (hi cloud) I just absolutely hate watching one mistake get punished so absurdly. It reminds me of Icies and this isn't a game that's designed to handle a mechanic like that. Nothing against the players, but the less Bayo in top 4 the more it proves she's overrated and the less jank we see in the last few games of a tourney. If she continues to fail to get top results I'll stop "cheering" when Bayos get beaten.

I can't say I felt the same of Sheik pre-patch or Rosa even though I thought the former needed a nerf so more characters could be viable.
 
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RedBeefBaron

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Such a high damage output but she really seems like she has trouble landing the kill on good players. People were consistently living to like 150% and then murdering with a guaranteed rage kill combo vs the Bayonetta player at this Arena Mexico tourney. Everyone still just goes on and on about how if she touches you you die because its a fact that DI doesn't work but clearly good players such as Leo and Hyuga are doing something that is working to break the combos.

The more I actually see her in tourney the more I think all the hate is based on poor understanding of the character being repeated and the echo chamber culture at its worst.

I'm sure she will soon be nerfed hard regardless though; it's pretty much certain with this widespread public outcry.
 
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