Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Diddy Kong]

Combined top 16 usage results from 2GGT, OUTFOXX'D, PPT, and BG2. (Still waiting on MARS and The Arena)

Used:
x9
x8
x6
x6
x5
x4
x4
x3
x3
x3
x3
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2












Not Used:



Hey, remember that time everyone was 100% sure that was the new meta?

TOLD YOU ALL!

 

[Zelder]

TOLD YOU ALL!

Please stop, this is getting embarrassing. This blatant character boosting doesn't benefit the discussion, and is honestly kind of grating to read. I understand Diddy Kong is your favorite character, but maybe pull back on the cheerleading at bit.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So, not to derail, but I've a metagame question. I wasn't that active back then, but I remember a hell of a lot of buzz around the shieldstun patch (1.1.2?). Did it have a marked impact on the meta after all? Perhaps making kill confirms out of grab less dominant, paving the way for Cloud?

The main impact it had was making mostly safe stuff completely safe. Cloud is helped but with his range and frame data he'd still be pretty good. Unlike Corrin, he has the ability to get grabs, and can charge limit or go for juggles after throwing his opponents. I think he also at least has a little in terms of low% stuff off throw. So it's good for Cloud but not that good.

 

[EnhaloTricks]

Fox doesn't beat Mewtwo because he has a reflector, that's not how Shadow Ball works.

C'mob didn't I rant about this a while ago?

I agree with you. Having Mew^2 in my region taught me that. I'm not the most well-versed in the MU as a recent Fox main, so I'm interested in hearing a summary of your thoughts on it. The one time I reflected a Shadow Ball he reflected it back (which I'm positive he labbed out re-reflecting SB), but does reflector break on a second reflect?

Watching OUTFOXX'D VODs right now, Mr. R is showing why Sheik will still be SO dominant in the meta at a high level... just in a different way. Sheik players can't look for "quick" games anymore. They almost have to be content with letting a game go on until 200% per stock. Which is exhausting. Personally, I'm liking this change. Sheik is still a hard character to play just that her weakness is, y'know, actually a weakness. I'm also super excited to be seeing more BF confirms seal stocks. Nair, needles, bair... it's just all so pretty..!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

[...] but does reflector break on a second reflect?

Yes it does.

Edit: If the Shadow Ball is fully charged, that is.

 

[bc1910]

TOLD YOU ALL!

Few people in this thread, if any, have recently denied that Diddy is top 5. Most are very receptive to the fact that he's remained top 5 since the game came out (though he was briefly 6th IMO last patch when the top 5 were the 3 queens, Bayo and Cloud). I think your fight is with the wider community and, to a lesser extent, the BR.

Don't take this the wrong way but right now these posts are kind of like going up to a bunch of people who love cookies and shouting "You were all wrong, cookies are amazing!". They're just aimed at the wrong crowd and don't make much sense.

 

[Megamang]

Special mention to pits reflector, which has a different breaking point (not in m2s favor iirc) vs a staled shadow ball, but breaks all the same with a fresh one.

The shieldstun patch was great for the game. It gave shields less utility, and at the time that was good. Safety on shield no longer became a top tier trait, but a trait everyone has somewhere in their neutral kit.

I especially like that it makes certain smashes become safe when charged. This is so cool and adds a nice element to pulling out a smash in certain situations.

 

[Solfiner]

the shieldstun patch is probably my favorite so far. It really helps a lot of the cast.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So Rango took two games off of ESAM, almost resetting the bracket at Tiger Smash 4. I think he probably could've reset it if he didn't screw up his recovery. Either way, I don't see how ESAM could still think the MU is 60:40 in Pika's favor after those games.

To add onto this: one of the stages Rango won on was Lylat of all places. Ya know, a stage where Pika should completely dominate.

Also ya, no way Pika has an advantage if two Ikes got to "If they hadn't screwed up in their recovery they would have won the set" distance from winning against freaking ESAM. Rango is improving from when he started off yes, but he ain't on ESAM's level.

@ Pound discussion: I think San said he's going to that, add that to the list of names.

@ Shield stun change patch: it was pretty important. Lots of moves became safe on shield. For aerials used in approaching that was particularly huge.

 

[FullMoon]

I believe aMSa will attend Pound as well, so that might be 2 Greninja players there.

 

[PK Gaming]

So, not to derail, but I've a metagame question. I wasn't that active back then, but I remember a hell of a lot of buzz around the shieldstun patch (1.1.2?). Did it have a marked impact on the meta after all? Perhaps making kill confirms out of grab less dominant, paving the way for Cloud?

It was a pretty substantial change. Go and compare pre-1.12 matches with what we have now and you'll notice that the pre 1.12 meta was a lot more defensive... stuff like down tilt pressure from Diddy Kong flat out didn't get exist, and it was harder most of the cast to actually do things. It was literally the turning point for Robin, since most his aerials could be shield grabbed before.

 

[Mister M]

sigh
2ggt, outfoxx'd, ppt, bg2, mars, and the arena.
+tus because why not.

Spoiler: Top 8

Spoiler: Top 3

Where is Ryu.

If I'm not mistaken, all top tiers and most high tiers are present bit where is ryu.

I think he's great but it seems to me use his neutral is far too honest, and his disadvantage is not crazy enough to compete. All his best reps dumped him like a low tier, and and those that still play him do not make the same waves as high tiers.

Could it be, that hes not competitive...

 

[FallofBrawl]

Where is Ryu.

If I'm not mistaken, all top tiers and most high tiers are present bit where is ryu.

I think he's great but it seems to me use his neutral is far too honest, and his disadvantage is not crazy enough to compete. All his best reps dumped him like a low tier, and and those that still play him do not make the same waves as high tiers.

Could it be, that hes not competitive...

By your flawed logic, Villager is not a competitive character.

Ryu's advantage is far too good and guaranteed to not be competitive. I don't know if there were any notable Ryus in attendance.

 

[Illusion.]

Ryu is a really hard character to use, that's why you don't see him much. It doesn't mean he isn't a good character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Most Non Top Level Sheik players have switched to Cloud or Bayonetta so far. Very interesting

No no. I think you mean just as expected because they were frauds and thats what frauds do.

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah, most of those players likely only played Sheik in order to play the best character. So when she no longer holds that title, off they go. Nothing inherently wrong with that, but this patch certainly showed us who the real Sheik mains are.

 

[Teshie U]

It was a pretty substantial change. Go and compare pre-1.12 matches with what we have now and you'll notice that the pre 1.12 meta was a lot more defensive... stuff like down tilt pressure from Diddy Kong flat out didn't get exist, and it was harder most of the cast to actually do things. It was literally the turning point for Robin, since most his aerials could be shield grabbed before.

Shieldstun patch pretty much bodied megaman. He shoots you and grabs you. That + all the other buffs to his favorable matchups hurt him alot imo.

 

[LancerStaff]

@ The Shadow Ball vs. reflector talk

Wasn't aware that Pit could break Mewtwo's reflector in certain conditions, though that's not really why Pit's Dspecial is useful against Shadow Ball. Mostly it's because it has it's own unique break animation which is unpunishable in this situation, and then it's the only reflector that doesn't halt/force momentum that can be held out. Combined it means he never loses anything using it against Shadow Ball, and can only potentially gain a stock (or fully charged Fsmash as I've just learned) if Mewtwo screws up. If the Pit player knows a SB is coming then jumping forwards with his Dspecial then Mewtwo may not be able to reflect fast enough depending on the spacing.

Though, I've heard that other reflectors can potentially break Mewtwo's too, namely Fox's. That's something you'd probably have to ask a Mewtwo about.

 

[Nobie]

No no. I think you mean just as expected because they were frauds and thats what frauds do.

It'd be an interesting project to track the history of fraudulence in Smash 4, from all of the sudden Diddy mains, to the Customs Villager era and on.

Important too would be those who un-frauded themselves, like how MVD picked up Diddy but stayed with him even after the nerfs.

 

[juddy96]

Really terrific set from 2GGT: FOW Saga that got relegated to the side stream. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKjxWke68tI

 

[TheGlove]

Where is Ryu.

If I'm not mistaken, all top tiers and most high tiers are present bit where is ryu.

I think he's great but it seems to me use his neutral is far too honest, and his disadvantage is not crazy enough to compete. All his best reps dumped him like a low tier, and and those that still play him do not make the same waves as high tiers.

Could it be, that hes not competitive...

There are literally like 5 nationally accredited Ryu's 9B, Trela, Dj Jack, False, and Venom I dont believe any of them were present in these tournies

Of these five only 9B has dropped the character, and I dont think its because he didn't think the character was good. Trela was recently on break but he is back into the competitive scene and he is still playing Ryu, I think he has won 2 Texas tournaments since his return.

As emblem lord has said a lot of mid level Ryus dont really understand the patience needed to play Ryu and are mainly thriving off of his high damage conversions and kill power which makes them fall off in higher seats of competition. Much like actual fighting games he has many good tolls in neutral, but no one option is so bonkers that it allows him to cheese through neutral.

I wolld have t o question your definition of competitiveness when luigi lucas yoshi megaman and samus could be competitve, they all were present in the top 8 , but ryu is in question

 

[Chalice]

No no. I think you mean just as expected because they were frauds and thats what frauds do.

Is it fraud when our pocket ends up doing better than our mains () and so we switch to maining Cloud and pocketing the previous main?

Or is 20FF taking over 20XX

 

[Megamang]

That's the issue with a higher powered pocket. Eventually you wonder why you arent using it more.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Is it fraud when our pocket ends up doing better than our mains () and so we switch to maining Cloud and pocketing the previous main?

Or is 20FF taking over 20XX

That's just intelligence.

 

[HeavyLobster]

All I'm gonna say about frauds is that I was seeing a lot of Marios up until around 1.1.3 hit, and then most of them vanished while lots of Clouds started appearing.

 

[epicnights]

There was some talk yesterday about Cloud's performance against Diddy and how Diddy most likely won the matchup, especially with M2K placing fourth at Outfoxxed after losing to Zinoto in Loser's Semis. However, is it possible that this is simply a player v. Player advantage rather than character advantage? Zinoto has beaten Mew2king in all of their recent sets, with Mew2king losing in Loser's Finals of Shuffle VIII 3-1, and losing in both winners and losers bracket of Outfoxxed, going 2-0 against Zinoto in winners and 3-1 once again in Loser's Semis. Might it be that Zinoto simply has M2K's number right now? Just a thought.

 

[[BROF]]

So Ive been seeing through the thread that a lot of people dont like when people refer to Bayonetta combos as combos because you can "escape" them with good DI.
Id like to point out how Smash 4 is too focused on only referring to strings that are 100% true as combos. While this the traditional definition, it hasnt always fully applied to smash.
The most famous combo in smash history, the Ken combo, is not a true combo. It only works when they DI in. As with many other combos in smash, you can escape them through DI provided your opponent doesnt follow it.
Most of the most amazing combos, both in melee and smash4 have the agressor follow the defendants DI, which is why the best combos are so hype, because theyre not guaranteed by nature.

Now here's where Bayonetta comes in. People can escape her combos with DI, yes, but just like with any other character, she can react to DI and continue a combo, possibly even to death.

0-to-deaths are still real, as expecting a player to react to DI (especially a top player) is not something unfeasible.

Id like your input on this.

 

[Rizen]

Now here's where Bayonetta comes in. People can escape her combos with DI, yes, but just like with any other character, she can react to DI and continue a combo, possibly even to death.

That's the thing; most characters' "combos" that can be escaped with DI can't be followed up. Bayo doesn't enter freefalling with hers and can continue attacking and chasing all the way to the ceiling and then some.

 

[[BROF]]

My bad, I still had a bit of melee in mind with that sentence. Im aware a lot of characters just get stage control when the opponent does optimal DI.

 

[C0rvus]

Other characters can do the thing he's saying. Moves may not continue to true combo, but you can expect options and cover them, or simply apply pressure on their landing. In that sense, you are still in advantage. This is more important than actual true combos most of the time.

 

[Mister M]

By your flawed logic, Villager is not a competitive character.

Ryu's advantage is far too good and guaranteed to not be competitive. I don't know if there were any notable Ryus in attendance.

My thinking is that the list had six notable tournaments from notable regions. At worst it shows a lack of reps. Still, my post was phrased as an honest question which TheGlove answerd.

I agree with the idea that he requires large amounts of mental prowess to navigate the neutral consistently, and this creates a difficulty barrier, but this isn't an obstacle to top players. Or it might just be a smash players thing.

Clearly his monstrous advantage state means he cant be written off, but I get the feeling that he is lacking alot in the other areas. Meaning he should be considered somewhat worse than people currently place him.

He can't apply any real pressure beyond being a threat. A good character needs more than mind games to get in. He can't zone or force approaches, and his tilt confirms can be sdi'd. Only bair is reliably safe on shield and focus attack can and has been well adapted too. These things matter alot.

It was wrong of me to imply, that because he wasn't present at the tournaments I mentioned, that hes bad. I don't think he bad, ryu is gr8 and I love him. But he's playing the same heavy weight game as bowser. Pressure your opponent for reads and then kill. Yes he can fish with safe confirms but I honestly dnot think it's enough to seat him at the top of high tier. I could be wrong.

 

[Yonder]

All I'm gonna say about frauds is that I was seeing a lot of Marios up until around 1.1.3 hit, and then most of them vanished while lots of Clouds started appearing.

Most? Isn't Mario still extremely popular? He is still probably the 3rd most used next to Cloud and Bayo. All three are super easy to use.

Remmeber when we all said Bayo would be hard to master, then even CPUs are mastering her off the top kill combos?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Most? Isn't Mario still extremely popular? He is still probably the 3rd most used next to Cloud and Bayo. All three are super easy to use.

Remmeber when we all said Bayo would be hard to master, then even CPUs are mastering her off the top kill combos?

To be fair, the CPU has frame perfect timing and reads your inputs.

I'd like to submit the idea that even if Bayonetta can theoretically cover all possible DI options, she does not necessarily have the luxury of waiting to see the opponent's DI. Otherwise she'll either fall and lose the chance to continue, or the opponent will escape hitstun. It may be the case that for any given DI option, Bayonetta has an answer, but it may be that she has to read the DI instead of reacting to it.

I know I still struggle with her combos popping the target into unexpected places in training mode of all things, so I can only imagine what a human can do to make her life tricky. I'd like people with more experience than me (both with and against Bayonetta) to weigh in on this.

 

[Yikarur]

Is anyone willing to open and update a result complation thread for Smash 4 tournaments in general?
It's annoying to search through old pages for tournament results

 

[Blobface]

Something worth noting regarding hitstun: Hitstun carries over when bouncing off of walls, meaning that, if you went through 72 frames of Jump hitstun and bounced off a wall on frame 36, you'd still need to wait 36 frames to jump. However, the same 40 frame "cap" on airdodge hitstun still applies, so you'd only need to wait 4 frames to airdodge.

As far as I know, floors act like walls in this game, so this applies to groundbounces as well.

 

[Kofu]

Though, I've heard that other reflectors can potentially break Mewtwo's too, namely Fox's. That's something you'd probably have to ask a Mewtwo about.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mewtwo-the-ping-pong-master.399468/

 

[Das Koopa]

Is anyone willing to open and update a result complation thread for Smash 4 tournaments in general?
It's annoying to search through old pages for tournament results

I have a large backlog of results but I have a few requirements for documenting tournies. I'm going to very shortly release my data list for the back half of March and that'll include the results from every relevant post-patch tourney this month. Results aren't too unexpected overall.

So, I could post one in the results forum, but idk how useful it'd be since I'd be primarily documenting only relevant stuff I add to my lists, e.g, tournies with noteworthy players and/or 128+ attendance.

 

[Djent]

Is anyone willing to open and update a result complation thread for Smash 4 tournaments in general?
It's annoying to search through old pages for tournament results

More scenes should do this. A few regular weekly series update regularly, but I think it's better to have things organized at the regional level. FWIW I already maintain such a thread for all of Japan and it's a lot of work even with help. If anyone else wants to try something like this, I recommend reserving several posts right off the bat. It'll help you stay organized if you can have different types of information in separate posts. This is the one thing I regret not doing, though fortunately it's not necessary.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Falcon still has a pretty bad Pika MU and I can't see the MK MU being much better.

No. It was even pre-patch, even with the ridiculous ladder combo. It's probably still around even.
Now, I realize this was several pages ago, but I want to bring it up as an example for something else.

Please don't try to talk about the more obscure MUs for a character you don't play. I'm not trying to call you out or anything, more so just the thread in general, but this is how misinformation gets spread and that's not helpful for anyone. Feel free to talk about obvious losing MUs like Falcon still losing to Pikachu or Falcon/Greninja losing hard to pre-patch Sheik, but if you don't play a character please don't try and go into their MUs unless it's against your own characters. It would be like if, for example, I randomly came into this thread and started saying Greninja loses to ROB (I don't actually think that, I don't know a damn thing about that MU). Whether or not Greninja actually loses to ROB, I don't know, but that's not really the point. The point is that it would be misinformation and it could potentially spread around.
So please, if you don't actually play the MU then let's ask for mains of those characters to give their insight rather than trying to fill in the blanks with our lack of knowledge. There are certainly people who come here and just lurk and read the thread rather than discuss, and they might come here to learn. Let's just make sure that they're learning the correct thing, rather than just learning and potentially continuing to spread misinformation.

Back on topic now, it's interesting (and a little disappointing) that we're back to discussing Bayonetta again. This wouldn't be a bad thing if this thread didn't have a bad habit of complaining about things. So before this turns into another complaining fest about Bayonetta and how she should/will be nerfed, please go out and try and develop counter play rather than complaining. There are no guarantees that there will be another patch. Just because 1.1.5 dropped out of nowhere, doesn't mean it will happen again. It's better to treat the game as if it will never be patched and learn to adapt, because even if there is a patch, that counter play won't go away. So please, get out there. I understand it's hard and that it's frustrating, but it's a lot more useful than complaining.

 

[Emblem Lord]

My thinking is that the list had six notable tournaments from notable regions. At worst it shows a lack of reps. Still, my post was phrased as an honest question which TheGlove answerd.

I agree with the idea that he requires large amounts of mental prowess to navigate the neutral consistently, and this creates a difficulty barrier, but this isn't an obstacle to top players. Or it might just be a smash players thing.

Clearly his monstrous advantage state means he cant be written off, but I get the feeling that he is lacking alot in the other areas. Meaning he should be considered somewhat worse than people currently place him.

He can't apply any real pressure beyond being a threat. A good character needs more than mind games to get in. He can't zone or force approaches, and his tilt confirms can be sdi'd. Only bair is reliably safe on shield and focus attack can and has been well adapted too. These things matter alot.

It was wrong of me to imply, that because he wasn't present at the tournaments I mentioned, that hes bad. I don't think he bad, ryu is gr8 and I love him. But he's playing the same heavy weight game as bowser. Pressure your opponent for reads and then kill. Yes he can fish with safe confirms but I honestly dnot think it's enough to seat him at the top of high tier. I could be wrong.

Define real pressure.

Because Ryu is technically the ONLY char in the game with ACTUAL block strings.