Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[L9999]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3jaie65Tb8
ZeRo forgot the big one: Sheik got butchered, so Greninja has more chance of beating her. And I have this feeling that there is some misinformation in this video.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yes it does.

Edit: If the Shadow Ball is fully charged, that is.

But only if it's completely fresh (does 26%). At all other times it's best to use mostly charged balls, though Fox can always reflect-cancel jump to bail.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Most? Isn't Mario still extremely popular? He is still probably the 3rd most used next to Cloud and Bayo. All three are super easy to use.

Remmeber when we all said Bayo would be hard to master, then even CPUs are mastering her off the top kill combos?

Talking mostly about my local scene. 3 out of the 8 entrants at this evening's weekly played at least some Cloud. Mario's not totally gone, but from my fairly limited frame of reference most of the Marios have jumped ship, usually to Cloud.

 

[Y2Kay]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3jaie65Tb8
ZeRo forgot the big one: Sheik got butchered, so Greninja has more chance of beating her. And I have this feeling that there is some misinformation in this video.

Nah, the video is....alright. It's pretty bare bones and gives a general summary of the buffs and what they do for him. It's mostly for new players that don't understand the patch notes / frame data and non-greninja mains. He obviously wanted to avoid sounding like a fool and talk too much about a character he doesn't play.

The 1.0.8 greninja video was way worse. This one is okay with me though.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

Just sayin', but have you guys considered that you're not ZeRo's target audience for these videos? His videos are for those who are new to the Smash 4 scene, so they look to the best player for basic information about the changes to a character. They're not intended for the people in this thread who discuss the game pretty much every day.

If it's about a specific character that isn't one he uses, I just ignore it because I already understand the basic changes. If I wanted to know the bigger changes, I'd either talk with some of the characters' mains or explore the character myself.

 

[Y2Kay]

Just sayin', but have you guys considered that you're not ZeRo's target audience for these videos? His videos are for those who are new to the Smash 4 scene, so they look to the best player for basic information about the changes to a character. They're not intended for the people in this thread who discuss the game pretty much every day.

If it's about a specific character that isn't one he uses, I just ignore it because I already understand the basic changes. If I wanted to know the bigger changes, I'd either talk with some of the characters' mains or explore the character myself.

that's......literally what I said. The video was for people new to the game or don't play the character

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

that's......literally what I said. The video was for people new to the game or don't play the character

And I agree with you. You certainly understand that, but the two of us saying this probably won't stop someone from posting his next video and complaining about it.
But since when did complaining become something new to this thread. Rather than a competitive impressions thread, lately this has been more of a competitive complaints thread. But that's none of my business.

 

[Das Koopa]

1.1.5 March 16th-March 27th Data-Based Tier List

Scores go by placement. 13th at the lowest category = 1 point, 9th = 2 points, and so on until 1st = 8 points. All secondaries are at half value (.5-4). This applies for Category 1 Tournaments, aka typical regionals. Category 2 tournaments, which would usually be defined as larger regionals or ones with denser skill pools (e.g. Regs in Tristate or SoCal), have point increases, going from 13th = 3 to 1st = 10 (1.5-5). Majors (Category 3) and supermajors (Category 4) would have point increases (5-12, 9-16), but there weren't any in the time frame.

I've updated my system to refine some of the results in better detail and to eliminate inflated results seen in the last data-based list I had using a simpler system (Diddy Kong in particular was heavily overvalued)

Tournaments used:

Spoiler

Category 2:
Outfoxx'd (March 26th)
2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th)
The Arena 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Category 1:
Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th)
Austin is Really Feeling it 12 (March 19th)
Hirosuma 3 (March 19th)
TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th)
Midwest Mayhem (March 19th)
Come to Papa (March 19th)
Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th)
The Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th)
Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th)
MARS 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Tournament results:

Spoiler

Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th) (Category 1)

1st: Karna (Sheik)
2nd: Awestin (Ness)
3rd: Denti (Cloud)
4th: Cosmos (Corrin)
5th: Gyo (R.O.B.)
5th: Sassy (R.O.B.)
7th: Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: P2P With Gibus (Greninja)
9th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
9th: CalmAnimal (Bowser)
9th: Phenom (Fox)
13th: Deezus (Ryu)
13th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
13th: Johan (Robin)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)

Austin is Really Feeling It 12 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link, Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS, Luigi)
9th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: Denti (Cloud)
9th: HaKii (Lucas)
9th: Espy (Sonic)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)
13th: Lucy (Toon Link)
13th: KJ (Cloud)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Hirosuma 3 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ikep (Bayonetta)
2nd: Wasubi (Wario, Mario)
3rd: 9B (Bayonetta)
4th: Ri-Ma (Toon Link)
5th: FILIP (Mario)
5th: Lagnel (Cloud, Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Mizero (Bayonetta, Peach)
7th: Ron (Luigi, Mario)
9th: Karoegu (Pikachu)
9th: Shimitake (Pikachu)
9th: Depuzo (King Dedede)
9th: Persia (???)
13th: Zoma (Mewtwo)
13th: Lickey (Meta Knight)
13th: Yassan (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: Sushi (???)

TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th?) (Category 1)
1st: Abadango (Mewtwo, Meta Knight)
2nd: Nyanko (Bayonetta)
3rd: Kamemushu (Mega Man, Cloud)
4th: KEN (Sonic)
5th: Zeke (Pikachu)
5th: Shogun (Mr. Game & Watch)
7th: Tsu- (Lucario)
7th: YOC (Corrin)
9th: Taranito (Ness)
9th: Mao (???)
9th: Elm (Sheik)
9th: bAhuto (Luigi, Mario)
13th: Daiki (Mega Man)
13th: Paseriman (???)
13th: Kawakami (???)
13th: Hikari (???)

Midwest Mayhem (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ally (Mario, R.O.B)
2nd: Mr. R. (Sheik)
3rd: Tyroy (Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
4th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
5th: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
5th: Nite (Rosalina)
7th: Greenbeast (Olimar)
7th: MJG (Villager, Toon Link)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: Shel (Luigi)
9th: Akiro (Sheik)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
13th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: BoScotty (R.O.B., Peach)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Nero (Pikachu)

Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th) (Category 1)
1st: Anti (Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik)
2nd: Scatt (Mega Man, Cloud)
3rd: Fatality (Captain Falcon)
4th: LordMix (Bowser)
5th: Wrath (Sonic)
5th: Oni Day (Lucario)
7th: Player-1 (Diddy Kong)
7th: Rango (Ike)


Come to Papa (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: MVD (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Ryo (Corrin, Ike)
3rd: Myran (Olimar)
4th: Master Raven (Sheik)
5th: Dyr (Diddy Kong)
5th: Heero/Static Manny (Sonic)
7th: Riot (Donkey Kong, Bayonetta)
7th: Dath (Robin)
9th: Purple Guy (Sheik, Zelda)
9th: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9th: TrueBlue (Sonic)
9th: RoguePenguin (Mario)
13th: Sol (Little Mac)
13th: Pthas (Lucario)
13th: Seibrik (Meta Knight)
13th: Xaltis (Rosalina)

2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd:Larry Lurr (Fox, Mario, Donkey Kong)
3rd:Tearbear (Captain Falcon, Lucas)
4th: FOW (Ness)
5th: K9 (Sheik)
5th: Falln (Rosalina)
7th: VoiD (Sheik)
7th: 3xA (Toon Link)
9th: JWest (Samus)
9th: Zan (Toon Link)
9th: SS (Villager)
9th: MrConCon (Luigi)
13th: IC (Diddy Kong)
13th: TLTC (Palutena)
13th: Scizor (Link)
13th: Sleeh (Diddy Kong)

Outfoxx’d (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Mr. R (Sheik)
2nd: Ally (Mario)
3rd: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
4th: Mew2King (Cloud)
5th: Tyroy (Bayonetta)
5th: Anti (Mario, Diddy Kong, Sonic)
7th: H-Man (Samus)
7th: Viev ( Zero Suit Samus, Luigi)
9th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
9th: Darkshad (Ryu)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
9th: Colinies (Fox)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Ksev (Fox)
13th: Naoto (Little Mac)
13th: Sai (Diddy Kong)

Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: NAKAT (Ness, Lucas)
2nd: Jbandrew (Meta Knight)
3rd: The Wall (Yoshi)
4th: DJ Fliphop (Diddy Kong)
5th: Karna (Sheik)
5th: AeroLink (Bayonetta)
7th: MegaFox (Fox)
7th: ThisGuy (Fox)
9th: Jerm (Robin)
9th: SaSSy (R.O.B)
9th: Whispy (Diddy Kong)
9th: BC (Villager)
13th: MikEffect (Ness)
13th: HaKii (Lucas)
13th: Nicole (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: Cyve (Diddy Kong, Bayonetta)
2nd: Sodrek (Fox)
3rd: LoNg0uw (R.O.B, Cloud)
4th: Katsumi (Rosalina)
5th: Ganis (Mega Man)
5th: VyQ (Mario)
7th: Light (Sheik, Mario)
7th: Meth (Captain Falcon)
9th: Fire (Captain Falcon)
9th: Sabaca (Captain Falcon)
9th: LuiS (Yoshi, Sheik, Captain Falcon)
9th: Tsunayoshi (Toon Link, Corrin)
13th: Boomuki (Captain Falcon)
13th: Frieddo (Fox)
13th: Koyu (Pit, Corrin)
13th: Luigi Player (Luigi, Mewtwo)

MARS 2016 (Category 1) (March 26th-27th 2016)
1st: Phogos (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Elexiao (Greninja, Pac-Man)
3rd: J. Miller (Luigi)
4th: Griffith (Bayonetta)
5th: Deimos (Zero Suit Samus, Ness)
5th: Homika (Rosalina)
7th: Mana (Toon Link)
7th: Glutonny (Bayonetta, Captain Falcon)
9th: Devskil (Bayonetta)
9th: Pur Gars (Lucario)
9th: Zudenka (Yoshi)
9th: Anragon (Falco, Ryu)
13th: Dakou (Lucas)
13th: Yoren (Cloud)
13th: Greil (Bayonetta)
13th: Yoyod (Zero Suit Samus)

The Arena 2016 (Category 2) (March 26th-27th)
1st: Leo (Meta Knight, Cloud)
2nd: Hyuga (Toon Link)
3rd: Regi (Mr. Game & Watch, Corrin)
4th: Javi (Cloud, Ness)
5th: Womf (Bayonetta)
5th: Addy (Cloud)
7th: Chag (Bayonetta)
7th: Emm_72k (Sonic)
9th: Nalga (Donkey Kong)
9th: Chota (Little Mac)
9th: Serge (Lucario, Cloud)
9th: Bedgar (Sheik)
13th: Kevin (Mewtwo)
13th: Manzano (Peach)
13th: Pollo (Bowser)
13th: Ramos (Diddy Kong)

Character Results:

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 81.5
Diddy Kong: 73
Sheik: 63
Mario: 55
Cloud: 50.5
Fox: 42
Toon Link: 39.5
Zero Suit Samus: 39
Ness: 35.5
Meta Knight: 26
Luigi: 25
Captain Falcon: 24.5
Sonic: 22
R.O.B: 21
Corrin: 20.5
Rosalina: 20
Mewtwo: 18.5
Mega Man: 18
Yoshi: 17
Ryu: 14
Lucario: 14
Lucas: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 12
Donkey Kong: 11.5
Little Mac: 10
Bowser: 10
Villager: 9
Greninja: 9
Samus: 9
Pikachu: 9
Olimar: 9
Wario: 7
Ike: 6.5
Robin: 6
Peach: 5
Pac-Man: 3.5
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Marth: 2
King Dedede: 2
Falco: 2
Zelda: 1
Pit: 1

Picture version:

This is very preliminary, as only two weeks have passed and very few significant tournies have occurred. This is basically just a test run of the new system, and a more accurate meta state will likely make itself clear within 1-2 months. I'll continue to document noteworthy tournies and refine where necessary.

 

[Tri Knight]

1.1.5 March 16th-March 27th Data-Based Tier List

Scores go by placement. 13th at the lowest category = 1 point, 9th = 2 points, and so on until 1st = 8 points. All secondaries are at half value (.5-4). This applies for Category 1 Tournaments, aka typical regionals. Category 2 tournaments, which would usually be defined as larger regionals or ones with denser skill pools (e.g. Regs in Tristate or SoCal), have point increases, going from 13th = 3 to 1st = 10 (1.5-5). Majors (Category 3) and supermajors (Category 4) would have point increases (5-12, 9-16), but there weren't any in the time frame.

I've updated my system to refine some of the results in better detail and to eliminate inflated results seen in the last data-based list I had using a simpler system (Diddy Kong in particular was heavily overvalued)

Tournaments used:

Spoiler

Category 2:
Outfoxx'd (March 26th)
2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th)
The Arena 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Category 1:
Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th)
Austin is Really Feeling it 12 (March 19th)
Hirosuma 3 (March 19th)
TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th)
Midwest Mayhem (March 19th)
Come to Papa (March 19th)
Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th)
The Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th)
Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th)
MARS 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Tournament results:

Spoiler

Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th) (Category 1)

1st: Karna (Sheik)
2nd: Awestin (Ness)
3rd: Denti (Cloud)
4th: Cosmos (Corrin)
5th: Gyo (R.O.B.)
5th: Sassy (R.O.B.)
7th: Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: P2P With Gibus (Greninja)
9th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
9th: CalmAnimal (Bowser)
9th: Phenom (Fox)
13th: Deezus (Ryu)
13th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
13th: Johan (Robin)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)

Austin is Really Feeling It 12 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link, Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS, Luigi)
9th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: Denti (Cloud)
9th: HaKii (Lucas)
9th: Espy (Sonic)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)
13th: Lucy (Toon Link)
13th: KJ (Cloud)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Hirosuma 3 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ikep (Bayonetta)
2nd: Wasubi (Wario, Mario)
3rd: 9B (Bayonetta)
4th: Ri-Ma (Toon Link)
5th: FILIP (Mario)
5th: Lagnel (Cloud, Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Mizero (Bayonetta, Peach)
7th: Ron (Luigi, Mario)
9th: Karoegu (Pikachu)
9th: Shimitake (Pikachu)
9th: Depuzo (King Dedede)
9th: Persia (???)
13th: Zoma (Mewtwo)
13th: Lickey (Meta Knight)
13th: Yassan (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: Sushi (???)

TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th?) (Category 1)
1st: Abadango (Mewtwo, Meta Knight)
2nd: Nyanko (Bayonetta)
3rd: Kamemushu (Mega Man, Cloud)
4th: KEN (Sonic)
5th: Zeke (Pikachu)
5th: Shogun (Mr. Game & Watch)
7th: Tsu- (Lucario)
7th: YOC (Corrin)
9th: Taranito (Ness)
9th: Mao (???)
9th: Elm (Sheik)
9th: bAhuto (Luigi, Mario)
13th: Daiki (Mega Man)
13th: Paseriman (???)
13th: Kawakami (???)
13th: Hikari (???)

Midwest Mayhem (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ally (Mario, R.O.B)
2nd: Mr. R. (Sheik)
3rd: Tyroy (Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
4th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
5th: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
5th: Nite (Rosalina)
7th: Greenbeast (Olimar)
7th: MJG (Villager, Toon Link)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: Shel (Luigi)
9th: Akiro (Sheik)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
13th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: BoScotty (R.O.B., Peach)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Nero (Pikachu)

Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th) (Category 1)
1st: Anti (Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik)
2nd: Scatt (Mega Man, Cloud)
3rd: Fatality (Captain Falcon)
4th: LordMix (Bowser)
5th: Wrath (Sonic)
5th: Oni Day (Lucario)
7th: Player-1 (Diddy Kong)
7th: Rango (Ike)


Come to Papa (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: MVD (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Ryo (Corrin, Ike)
3rd: Myran (Olimar)
4th: Master Raven (Sheik)
5th: Dyr (Diddy Kong)
5th: Heero/Static Manny (Sonic)
7th: Riot (Donkey Kong, Bayonetta)
7th: Dath (Robin)
9th: Purple Guy (Sheik, Zelda)
9th: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9th: TrueBlue (Sonic)
9th: RoguePenguin (Mario)
13th: Sol (Little Mac)
13th: Pthas (Lucario)
13th: Seibrik (Meta Knight)
13th: Xaltis (Rosalina)

2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd:Larry Lurr (Fox, Mario, Donkey Kong)
3rd:Tearbear (Captain Falcon, Lucas)
4th: FOW (Ness)
5th: K9 (Sheik)
5th: Falln (Rosalina)
7th: VoiD (Sheik)
7th: 3xA (Toon Link)
9th: JWest (Samus)
9th: Zan (Toon Link)
9th: SS (Villager)
9th: MrConCon (Luigi)
13th: IC (Diddy Kong)
13th: TLTC (Palutena)
13th: Scizor (Link)
13th: Sleeh (Diddy Kong)

Outfoxx’d (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Mr. R (Sheik)
2nd: Ally (Mario)
3rd: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
4th: Mew2King (Cloud)
5th: Tyroy (Bayonetta)
5th: Anti (Mario, Diddy Kong, Sonic)
7th: H-Man (Samus)
7th: Viev ( Zero Suit Samus, Luigi)
9th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
9th: Darkshad (Ryu)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
9th: Colinies (Fox)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Ksev (Fox)
13th: Naoto (Little Mac)
13th: Sai (Diddy Kong)

Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: NAKAT (Ness, Lucas)
2nd: Jbandrew (Meta Knight)
3rd: The Wall (Yoshi)
4th: DJ Fliphop (Diddy Kong)
5th: Karna (Sheik)
5th: AeroLink (Bayonetta)
7th: MegaFox (Fox)
7th: ThisGuy (Fox)
9th: Jerm (Robin)
9th: SaSSy (R.O.B)
9th: Whispy (Diddy Kong)
9th: BC (Villager)
13th: MikEffect (Ness)
13th: HaKii (Lucas)
13th: Nicole (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: Cyve (Diddy Kong, Bayonetta)
2nd: Sodrek (Fox)
3rd: LoNg0uw (R.O.B, Cloud)
4th: Katsumi (Rosalina)
5th: Ganis (Mega Man)
5th: VyQ (Mario)
7th: Light (Sheik, Mario)
7th: Meth (Captain Falcon)
9th: Fire (Captain Falcon)
9th: Sabaca (Captain Falcon)
9th: LuiS (Yoshi, Sheik, Captain Falcon)
9th: Tsunayoshi (Toon Link, Corrin)
13th: Boomuki (Captain Falcon)
13th: Frieddo (Fox)
13th: Koyu (Pit, Corrin)
13th: Luigi Player (Luigi, Mewtwo)

MARS 2016 (Category 1) (March 26th-27th 2016)
1st: Phogos (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Elexiao (Greninja, Pac-Man)
3rd: J. Miller (Luigi)
4th: Griffith (Bayonetta)
5th: Deimos (Zero Suit Samus, Ness)
5th: Homika (Rosalina)
7th: Mana (Toon Link)
7th: Glutonny (Bayonetta, Captain Falcon)
9th: Devskil (Bayonetta)
9th: Pur Gars (Lucario)
9th: Zudenka (Yoshi)
9th: Anragon (Falco, Ryu)
13th: Dakou (Lucas)
13th: Yoren (Cloud)
13th: Greil (Bayonetta)
13th: Yoyod (Zero Suit Samus)

The Arena 2016 (Category 2) (March 26th-27th)
1st: Leo (Meta Knight, Cloud)
2nd: Hyuga (Toon Link)
3rd: Regi (Mr. Game & Watch, Corrin)
4th: Javi (Cloud, Ness)
5th: Womf (Bayonetta)
5th: Addy (Cloud)
7th: Chag (Bayonetta)
7th: Emm_72k (Sonic)
9th: Nalga (Donkey Kong)
9th: Chota (Little Mac)
9th: Serge (Lucario, Cloud)
9th: Bedgar (Sheik)
13th: Kevin (Mewtwo)
13th: Manzano (Peach)
13th: Pollo (Bowser)
13th: Ramos (Diddy Kong)

Character Results:

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 81.5
Diddy Kong: 73
Sheik: 63
Mario: 55
Cloud: 50.5
Fox: 42
Toon Link: 39.5
Zero Suit Samus: 39
Ness: 35.5
Meta Knight: 26
Luigi: 25
Captain Falcon: 24.5
Sonic: 22
R.O.B: 21
Corrin: 20.5
Rosalina: 20
Mewtwo: 18.5
Mega Man: 18
Yoshi: 17
Ryu: 14
Lucario: 14
Lucas: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 12
Donkey Kong: 11.5
Little Mac: 10
Bowser: 10
Villager: 9
Greninja: 9
Samus: 9
Pikachu: 9
Olimar: 9
Wario: 7
Ike: 6.5
Robin: 6
Peach: 5
Pac-Man: 3.5
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Marth: 2
King Dedede: 2
Falco: 2
Zelda: 1
Pit: 1

Picture version:

This is very preliminary, as only two weeks have passed and very few significant tournies have occurred. This is basically just a test run of the new system, and a more accurate meta state will likely make itself clear within 1-2 months. I'll continue to document noteworthy tournies and refine where necessary.

Wow, this is great. I like the system you got here. Shows what characters have been shining for the past couple weeks at least.

 

[Luco]

Love the picture system, but be careful of using uneven points or ranges in graphs / tables / pictures, it can make the results look a little different than they really are.

Or perhaps divide up the incrementals the further down you go. It just looks a bit weird to see Diddy and Sheik in a 20 point range, Mario and Cloud in a 10 point range and then back to Fox and friends in a 20 point range. :3

EDIT: It might actually not be too big of a deal if you think about it as more of a 'I separated tiers when there were norticeable gaps in point values'.

 

[L9999]

1.1.5 March 16th-March 27th Data-Based Tier List

Scores go by placement. 13th at the lowest category = 1 point, 9th = 2 points, and so on until 1st = 8 points. All secondaries are at half value (.5-4). This applies for Category 1 Tournaments, aka typical regionals. Category 2 tournaments, which would usually be defined as larger regionals or ones with denser skill pools (e.g. Regs in Tristate or SoCal), have point increases, going from 13th = 3 to 1st = 10 (1.5-5). Majors (Category 3) and supermajors (Category 4) would have point increases (5-12, 9-16), but there weren't any in the time frame.

I've updated my system to refine some of the results in better detail and to eliminate inflated results seen in the last data-based list I had using a simpler system (Diddy Kong in particular was heavily overvalued)

Tournaments used:

Spoiler

Category 2:
Outfoxx'd (March 26th)
2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th)
The Arena 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Category 1:
Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th)
Austin is Really Feeling it 12 (March 19th)
Hirosuma 3 (March 19th)
TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th)
Midwest Mayhem (March 19th)
Come to Papa (March 19th)
Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th)
The Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th)
Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th)
MARS 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Tournament results:

Spoiler

Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th) (Category 1)

1st: Karna (Sheik)
2nd: Awestin (Ness)
3rd: Denti (Cloud)
4th: Cosmos (Corrin)
5th: Gyo (R.O.B.)
5th: Sassy (R.O.B.)
7th: Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: P2P With Gibus (Greninja)
9th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
9th: CalmAnimal (Bowser)
9th: Phenom (Fox)
13th: Deezus (Ryu)
13th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
13th: Johan (Robin)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)

Austin is Really Feeling It 12 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link, Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS, Luigi)
9th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: Denti (Cloud)
9th: HaKii (Lucas)
9th: Espy (Sonic)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)
13th: Lucy (Toon Link)
13th: KJ (Cloud)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Hirosuma 3 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ikep (Bayonetta)
2nd: Wasubi (Wario, Mario)
3rd: 9B (Bayonetta)
4th: Ri-Ma (Toon Link)
5th: FILIP (Mario)
5th: Lagnel (Cloud, Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Mizero (Bayonetta, Peach)
7th: Ron (Luigi, Mario)
9th: Karoegu (Pikachu)
9th: Shimitake (Pikachu)
9th: Depuzo (King Dedede)
9th: Persia (???)
13th: Zoma (Mewtwo)
13th: Lickey (Meta Knight)
13th: Yassan (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: Sushi (???)

TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th?) (Category 1)
1st: Abadango (Mewtwo, Meta Knight)
2nd: Nyanko (Bayonetta)
3rd: Kamemushu (Mega Man, Cloud)
4th: KEN (Sonic)
5th: Zeke (Pikachu)
5th: Shogun (Mr. Game & Watch)
7th: Tsu- (Lucario)
7th: YOC (Corrin)
9th: Taranito (Ness)
9th: Mao (???)
9th: Elm (Sheik)
9th: bAhuto (Luigi, Mario)
13th: Daiki (Mega Man)
13th: Paseriman (???)
13th: Kawakami (???)
13th: Hikari (???)

Midwest Mayhem (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ally (Mario, R.O.B)
2nd: Mr. R. (Sheik)
3rd: Tyroy (Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
4th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
5th: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
5th: Nite (Rosalina)
7th: Greenbeast (Olimar)
7th: MJG (Villager, Toon Link)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: Shel (Luigi)
9th: Akiro (Sheik)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
13th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: BoScotty (R.O.B., Peach)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Nero (Pikachu)

Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th) (Category 1)
1st: Anti (Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik)
2nd: Scatt (Mega Man, Cloud)
3rd: Fatality (Captain Falcon)
4th: LordMix (Bowser)
5th: Wrath (Sonic)
5th: Oni Day (Lucario)
7th: Player-1 (Diddy Kong)
7th: Rango (Ike)


Come to Papa (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: MVD (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Ryo (Corrin, Ike)
3rd: Myran (Olimar)
4th: Master Raven (Sheik)
5th: Dyr (Diddy Kong)
5th: Heero/Static Manny (Sonic)
7th: Riot (Donkey Kong, Bayonetta)
7th: Dath (Robin)
9th: Purple Guy (Sheik, Zelda)
9th: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9th: TrueBlue (Sonic)
9th: RoguePenguin (Mario)
13th: Sol (Little Mac)
13th: Pthas (Lucario)
13th: Seibrik (Meta Knight)
13th: Xaltis (Rosalina)

2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd:Larry Lurr (Fox, Mario, Donkey Kong)
3rd:Tearbear (Captain Falcon, Lucas)
4th: FOW (Ness)
5th: K9 (Sheik)
5th: Falln (Rosalina)
7th: VoiD (Sheik)
7th: 3xA (Toon Link)
9th: JWest (Samus)
9th: Zan (Toon Link)
9th: SS (Villager)
9th: MrConCon (Luigi)
13th: IC (Diddy Kong)
13th: TLTC (Palutena)
13th: Scizor (Link)
13th: Sleeh (Diddy Kong)

Outfoxx’d (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Mr. R (Sheik)
2nd: Ally (Mario)
3rd: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
4th: Mew2King (Cloud)
5th: Tyroy (Bayonetta)
5th: Anti (Mario, Diddy Kong, Sonic)
7th: H-Man (Samus)
7th: Viev ( Zero Suit Samus, Luigi)
9th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
9th: Darkshad (Ryu)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
9th: Colinies (Fox)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Ksev (Fox)
13th: Naoto (Little Mac)
13th: Sai (Diddy Kong)

Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: NAKAT (Ness, Lucas)
2nd: Jbandrew (Meta Knight)
3rd: The Wall (Yoshi)
4th: DJ Fliphop (Diddy Kong)
5th: Karna (Sheik)
5th: AeroLink (Bayonetta)
7th: MegaFox (Fox)
7th: ThisGuy (Fox)
9th: Jerm (Robin)
9th: SaSSy (R.O.B)
9th: Whispy (Diddy Kong)
9th: BC (Villager)
13th: MikEffect (Ness)
13th: HaKii (Lucas)
13th: Nicole (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: Cyve (Diddy Kong, Bayonetta)
2nd: Sodrek (Fox)
3rd: LoNg0uw (R.O.B, Cloud)
4th: Katsumi (Rosalina)
5th: Ganis (Mega Man)
5th: VyQ (Mario)
7th: Light (Sheik, Mario)
7th: Meth (Captain Falcon)
9th: Fire (Captain Falcon)
9th: Sabaca (Captain Falcon)
9th: LuiS (Yoshi, Sheik, Captain Falcon)
9th: Tsunayoshi (Toon Link, Corrin)
13th: Boomuki (Captain Falcon)
13th: Frieddo (Fox)
13th: Koyu (Pit, Corrin)
13th: Luigi Player (Luigi, Mewtwo)

MARS 2016 (Category 1) (March 26th-27th 2016)
1st: Phogos (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Elexiao (Greninja, Pac-Man)
3rd: J. Miller (Luigi)
4th: Griffith (Bayonetta)
5th: Deimos (Zero Suit Samus, Ness)
5th: Homika (Rosalina)
7th: Mana (Toon Link)
7th: Glutonny (Bayonetta, Captain Falcon)
9th: Devskil (Bayonetta)
9th: Pur Gars (Lucario)
9th: Zudenka (Yoshi)
9th: Anragon (Falco, Ryu)
13th: Dakou (Lucas)
13th: Yoren (Cloud)
13th: Greil (Bayonetta)
13th: Yoyod (Zero Suit Samus)

The Arena 2016 (Category 2) (March 26th-27th)
1st: Leo (Meta Knight, Cloud)
2nd: Hyuga (Toon Link)
3rd: Regi (Mr. Game & Watch, Corrin)
4th: Javi (Cloud, Ness)
5th: Womf (Bayonetta)
5th: Addy (Cloud)
7th: Chag (Bayonetta)
7th: Emm_72k (Sonic)
9th: Nalga (Donkey Kong)
9th: Chota (Little Mac)
9th: Serge (Lucario, Cloud)
9th: Bedgar (Sheik)
13th: Kevin (Mewtwo)
13th: Manzano (Peach)
13th: Pollo (Bowser)
13th: Ramos (Diddy Kong)

Character Results:

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 81.5
Diddy Kong: 73
Sheik: 63
Mario: 55
Cloud: 50.5
Fox: 42
Toon Link: 39.5
Zero Suit Samus: 39
Ness: 35.5
Meta Knight: 26
Luigi: 25
Captain Falcon: 24.5
Sonic: 22
R.O.B: 21
Corrin: 20.5
Rosalina: 20
Mewtwo: 18.5
Mega Man: 18
Yoshi: 17
Ryu: 14
Lucario: 14
Lucas: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 12
Donkey Kong: 11.5
Little Mac: 10
Bowser: 10
Villager: 9
Greninja: 9
Samus: 9
Pikachu: 9
Olimar: 9
Wario: 7
Ike: 6.5
Robin: 6
Peach: 5
Pac-Man: 3.5
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Marth: 2
King Dedede: 2
Falco: 2
Zelda: 1
Pit: 1

Picture version:

This is very preliminary, as only two weeks have passed and very few significant tournies have occurred. This is basically just a test run of the new system, and a more accurate meta state will likely make itself clear within 1-2 months. I'll continue to document noteworthy tournies and refine where necessary.

Bayonetta and Diddy were very obvious. I'm surprised Diddy isn't number 1 in results, he is everywhere. Toon Link surpassed freaking Ness. That's impressive. Freaking Yoshi, Lucas and Mr. Game and Watch have done something of worth! Ryu, Rat, Ike, and Killager are drowning, Wario hasn't completely drowned, Samus and Olimar have been doing good stuff lately. 0 is not surprising at all, they are all trash tiers or unpopular picks.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Just sayin', but have you guys considered that you're not ZeRo's target audience for these videos? His videos are for those who are new to the Smash 4 scene, so they look to the best player for basic information about the changes to a character. They're not intended for the people in this thread who discuss the game pretty much every day.

If it's about a specific character that isn't one he uses, I just ignore it because I already understand the basic changes. If I wanted to know the bigger changes, I'd either talk with some of the characters' mains or explore the character myself.

ZeRo's audience is the average Sm4sh community: The (generally) brainless masses that are quick to pull triggers, are obsessed with bidou, quick and flashy gameplay and play 90% on For Glory.

The Bayonetta video for example, is pretty much a like bait echoing the average player's claims.


He sometimes does well explaining things like this Greninja video, sometimes he does have the right data or is simply an informed opinion.
But more often than not, his points lack any backup or actual experience, and the characters' mains can easily point out where he misjudged something. But the general community doesn't know that and that usually ends up making his opinions to weigh a lot.

A personal recommendation? To treat it as any other opinion and not discuss it too much, specially if he will not come here to defend or change what was stated.
A mod recommendation? To treat it as any other opinion and not discuss it too much, specially if he will not come here to defend or change what was stated

 

[Rizen]

But more often than not, his points lack any backup or actual experience, and the characters' mains can easily point out where he misjudged something. But the general community doesn't know that and that usually ends up making his opinions to weigh a lot.

I'm not disagreeing but am curious to see an example of this.

 

[YerTheBestAROUND]

ZeRo's audience is the average Sm4sh community: The (generally) brainless masses that are quick to pull triggers, are obsessed with bidou, quick and flashy gameplay and play 90% on For Glory.

The Bayonetta video for example, is pretty much a like bait echoing the average player's claims.


He sometimes does well explaining things like this Greninja video, sometimes he does have the right data or is simply an informed opinion.
But more often than not, his points lack any backup or actual experience, and the characters' mains can easily point out where he misjudged something. But the general community doesn't know that and that usually ends up making his opinions to weigh a lot.

A personal recommendation? To treat it as any other opinion and not discuss it too much, specially if he will not come here to defend or change what was stated.
A mod recommendation? To treat it as any other opinion and not discuss it too much, specially if he will not come here to defend or change what was stated

Pretty much my thoughts in a nutshell. But I can't say I'd be surprised to see someone complain about whatever character thoughts he might post on Wednesday.
If his character videos aren't about Sheik or Diddy Kong, frankly I could care less if they existed or not.

 

[[BROF]]

Either for good or misguided evil, Zero has earned the power to influence people like that.
After all smash, like traditional fighting games, is a meritocracy at its core. Nobody has more merit in all of the community than Zero himself, cause he earned it.

We all know that he makes a ton of videos cause thats good for SEO and his youtube channel. It's obvious that he means well at least.

A serious player will inform itself more beyond what Zero offers him. Besides as some of you have said, most of Zeros audience doesnt even play competitively.

 

[Solfiner]

ZeRo is basically like any user in here: knows a lot about his mains, but still wants to state his opinion on other character that he knows a lot less about.

 

[RonNewcomb]

OK, so who does actually lose to that could keep him out of (the bottom of) high tier? He's been continuously pulling results that are at least comparable to the other characters in that grouping. He probably loses hard to Bayonetta; the results are certainly in her favor. Plus, I'd argue that pitting a character that struggles vs. shields against one with a brilliant OoS option that nets massive damage and even kills favors the latter in theory as well. Rosalina might be awful too but I'd kind of like to see this actually played out at a high level before I conclude that. Going by results, MK was pretty bad but still winnable pre-patch, but I'm not sure how the MK nerfs affect this match. Otherwise, I really can't see this guy losing anything worse than -1 right now. And since characters like Ness and Villager aren't disqualified from a lower A ranking by one or two bad MUs, I don't think TL should be either. But maybe he struggles against other characters that I'm not aware of.

Argh, forgot to mention Corrin. Tink's preferred range happens around lance tip range, and Tink doesn't CQC him very well either. Or outsword him, obviously.

Where is Ryu.

If I'm not mistaken, all top tiers and most high tiers are present bit where is ryu

Caring nothing for ceremony, he is already seeking his next challenge.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I'm not disagreeing but am curious to see an example of this.

The 1.1.5 Meta Knight Analysis
He stated that MK was "uair combo: the character", but dedicated MK mains were quick to re-state that MK was not successful ONLY because of that combo. He has tons of other options, juggling abilities and raw kill power/setups.

Even Dabuz acknowledged that MK is still very very good here: https://youtu.be/xQF8FjUUOmE?t=7m15s

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Yeah, Diddy most likely beats Bayonetta, has a chance at going even or better with Cloud and is completely unchained in general now with the top tier nerfs. Not to say he has no bad matchups or that there's no counterplay to his kit but he's a major contender for best character in the game right now.

So don't shut down @Diddy Kong for being happy; we deserve to celebrate. It's poetic justice that Diddy Kong mains are now hugely rewarded for sticking with the character we love for the better part of a year despite him receiving what may have been the most severe nerf in the history of fighting games.

Feels good man.

 

[R3D3MON]

RedBeefBaron

Luigi says hi. Also sheik now possibly.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

RedBeefBaron

Luigi says hi. Also sheik now possibly.

Not even close.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Sheik nerfs were huge, but the character still works.
Diddy lost his Grab kill confirms, but then players developed the Dtilt followups.
Sheik lost her Grab 50/50s, but her Ftilt and Dtilt still setup to 50/50 themselves.
Luigi.... was hugely nerfed as well, but he never had other amazing options, and was never compensated for his loss.

 

[Yonder]

1.1.5 March 16th-March 27th Data-Based Tier List

Scores go by placement. 13th at the lowest category = 1 point, 9th = 2 points, and so on until 1st = 8 points. All secondaries are at half value (.5-4). This applies for Category 1 Tournaments, aka typical regionals. Category 2 tournaments, which would usually be defined as larger regionals or ones with denser skill pools (e.g. Regs in Tristate or SoCal), have point increases, going from 13th = 3 to 1st = 10 (1.5-5). Majors (Category 3) and supermajors (Category 4) would have point increases (5-12, 9-16), but there weren't any in the time frame.

I've updated my system to refine some of the results in better detail and to eliminate inflated results seen in the last data-based list I had using a simpler system (Diddy Kong in particular was heavily overvalued)

Tournaments used:

Spoiler

Category 2:
Outfoxx'd (March 26th)
2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th)
The Arena 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Category 1:
Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th)
Austin is Really Feeling it 12 (March 19th)
Hirosuma 3 (March 19th)
TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th)
Midwest Mayhem (March 19th)
Come to Papa (March 19th)
Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th)
The Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th)
Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th)
MARS 2016 (March 26th-27th)

Tournament results:

Spoiler

Shockwave Plano 76 (March 16th) (Category 1)

1st: Karna (Sheik)
2nd: Awestin (Ness)
3rd: Denti (Cloud)
4th: Cosmos (Corrin)
5th: Gyo (R.O.B.)
5th: Sassy (R.O.B.)
7th: Dakpo (Zero Suit Samus)
7th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: P2P With Gibus (Greninja)
9th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
9th: CalmAnimal (Bowser)
9th: Phenom (Fox)
13th: Deezus (Ryu)
13th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
13th: Johan (Robin)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)

Austin is Really Feeling It 12 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Trela (Ryu)
2nd:Grim Turtle (Bayonetta)
3rd: Megafox (Fox)
4th: Mew^2 (Mewtwo)
5th: Asa (Ness)
5th: Gnes (Toon Link, Marth)
7th: Aerolink (Bayonetta)
7th: Dakpo (ZSS, Luigi)
9th: YellowRello (Yoshi)
9th: Denti (Cloud)
9th: HaKii (Lucas)
9th: Espy (Sonic)
13th: LiLPac (Little Mac)
13th: Lucy (Toon Link)
13th: KJ (Cloud)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Hirosuma 3 (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ikep (Bayonetta)
2nd: Wasubi (Wario, Mario)
3rd: 9B (Bayonetta)
4th: Ri-Ma (Toon Link)
5th: FILIP (Mario)
5th: Lagnel (Cloud, Zero Suit Samus)
7th: Mizero (Bayonetta, Peach)
7th: Ron (Luigi, Mario)
9th: Karoegu (Pikachu)
9th: Shimitake (Pikachu)
9th: Depuzo (King Dedede)
9th: Persia (???)
13th: Zoma (Mewtwo)
13th: Lickey (Meta Knight)
13th: Yassan (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: Sushi (???)

TUS Tournament 4 (March 19th?) (Category 1)
1st: Abadango (Mewtwo, Meta Knight)
2nd: Nyanko (Bayonetta)
3rd: Kamemushu (Mega Man, Cloud)
4th: KEN (Sonic)
5th: Zeke (Pikachu)
5th: Shogun (Mr. Game & Watch)
7th: Tsu- (Lucario)
7th: YOC (Corrin)
9th: Taranito (Ness)
9th: Mao (???)
9th: Elm (Sheik)
9th: bAhuto (Luigi, Mario)
13th: Daiki (Mega Man)
13th: Paseriman (???)
13th: Kawakami (???)
13th: Hikari (???)

Midwest Mayhem (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: Ally (Mario, R.O.B)
2nd: Mr. R. (Sheik)
3rd: Tyroy (Bayonetta, Meta Knight)
4th: Hyuga (Toon Link)
5th: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
5th: Nite (Rosalina)
7th: Greenbeast (Olimar)
7th: MJG (Villager, Toon Link)
9th: Dan (Mario)
9th: Shel (Luigi)
9th: Akiro (Sheik)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
13th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: BoScotty (R.O.B., Peach)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Nero (Pikachu)

Final Round 19 (March 18th-20th) (Category 1)
1st: Anti (Mario, Zero Suit Samus, Sheik)
2nd: Scatt (Mega Man, Cloud)
3rd: Fatality (Captain Falcon)
4th: LordMix (Bowser)
5th: Wrath (Sonic)
5th: Oni Day (Lucario)
7th: Player-1 (Diddy Kong)
7th: Rango (Ike)


Come to Papa (March 19th) (Category 1)
1st: MVD (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Ryo (Corrin, Ike)
3rd: Myran (Olimar)
4th: Master Raven (Sheik)
5th: Dyr (Diddy Kong)
5th: Heero/Static Manny (Sonic)
7th: Riot (Donkey Kong, Bayonetta)
7th: Dath (Robin)
9th: Purple Guy (Sheik, Zelda)
9th: Poltergust (Yoshi)
9th: TrueBlue (Sonic)
9th: RoguePenguin (Mario)
13th: Sol (Little Mac)
13th: Pthas (Lucario)
13th: Seibrik (Meta Knight)
13th: Xaltis (Rosalina)

2GGT FOW Saga (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Nairo (Zero Suit Samus)
2nd:Larry Lurr (Fox, Mario, Donkey Kong)
3rd:Tearbear (Captain Falcon, Lucas)
4th: FOW (Ness)
5th: K9 (Sheik)
5th: Falln (Rosalina)
7th: VoiD (Sheik)
7th: 3xA (Toon Link)
9th: JWest (Samus)
9th: Zan (Toon Link)
9th: SS (Villager)
9th: MrConCon (Luigi)
13th: IC (Diddy Kong)
13th: TLTC (Palutena)
13th: Scizor (Link)
13th: Sleeh (Diddy Kong)

Outfoxx’d (March 26th) (Category 2)
1st: Mr. R (Sheik)
2nd: Ally (Mario)
3rd: Zinoto (Diddy Kong)
4th: Mew2King (Cloud)
5th: Tyroy (Bayonetta)
5th: Anti (Mario, Diddy Kong, Sonic)
7th: H-Man (Samus)
7th: Viev ( Zero Suit Samus, Luigi)
9th: Ned (Zero Suit Samus)
9th: Darkshad (Ryu)
9th: JJROCKETS (Diddy Kong)
9th: Colinies (Fox)
13th: Ruins (Fox)
13th: Ksev (Fox)
13th: Naoto (Little Mac)
13th: Sai (Diddy Kong)

Battlegrounds 2 (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: NAKAT (Ness, Lucas)
2nd: Jbandrew (Meta Knight)
3rd: The Wall (Yoshi)
4th: DJ Fliphop (Diddy Kong)
5th: Karna (Sheik)
5th: AeroLink (Bayonetta)
7th: MegaFox (Fox)
7th: ThisGuy (Fox)
9th: Jerm (Robin)
9th: SaSSy (R.O.B)
9th: Whispy (Diddy Kong)
9th: BC (Villager)
13th: MikEffect (Ness)
13th: HaKii (Lucas)
13th: Nicole (Zero Suit Samus)
13th: iiGGy (Bayonetta)

Pandali’s Pandemonium Tournament (March 26th, 2016) (Category 1)
1st: Cyve (Diddy Kong, Bayonetta)
2nd: Sodrek (Fox)
3rd: LoNg0uw (R.O.B, Cloud)
4th: Katsumi (Rosalina)
5th: Ganis (Mega Man)
5th: VyQ (Mario)
7th: Light (Sheik, Mario)
7th: Meth (Captain Falcon)
9th: Fire (Captain Falcon)
9th: Sabaca (Captain Falcon)
9th: LuiS (Yoshi, Sheik, Captain Falcon)
9th: Tsunayoshi (Toon Link, Corrin)
13th: Boomuki (Captain Falcon)
13th: Frieddo (Fox)
13th: Koyu (Pit, Corrin)
13th: Luigi Player (Luigi, Mewtwo)

MARS 2016 (Category 1) (March 26th-27th 2016)
1st: Phogos (Diddy Kong)
2nd: Elexiao (Greninja, Pac-Man)
3rd: J. Miller (Luigi)
4th: Griffith (Bayonetta)
5th: Deimos (Zero Suit Samus, Ness)
5th: Homika (Rosalina)
7th: Mana (Toon Link)
7th: Glutonny (Bayonetta, Captain Falcon)
9th: Devskil (Bayonetta)
9th: Pur Gars (Lucario)
9th: Zudenka (Yoshi)
9th: Anragon (Falco, Ryu)
13th: Dakou (Lucas)
13th: Yoren (Cloud)
13th: Greil (Bayonetta)
13th: Yoyod (Zero Suit Samus)

The Arena 2016 (Category 2) (March 26th-27th)
1st: Leo (Meta Knight, Cloud)
2nd: Hyuga (Toon Link)
3rd: Regi (Mr. Game & Watch, Corrin)
4th: Javi (Cloud, Ness)
5th: Womf (Bayonetta)
5th: Addy (Cloud)
7th: Chag (Bayonetta)
7th: Emm_72k (Sonic)
9th: Nalga (Donkey Kong)
9th: Chota (Little Mac)
9th: Serge (Lucario, Cloud)
9th: Bedgar (Sheik)
13th: Kevin (Mewtwo)
13th: Manzano (Peach)
13th: Pollo (Bowser)
13th: Ramos (Diddy Kong)

Character Results:

Spoiler

Bayonetta: 81.5
Diddy Kong: 73
Sheik: 63
Mario: 55
Cloud: 50.5
Fox: 42
Toon Link: 39.5
Zero Suit Samus: 39
Ness: 35.5
Meta Knight: 26
Luigi: 25
Captain Falcon: 24.5
Sonic: 22
R.O.B: 21
Corrin: 20.5
Rosalina: 20
Mewtwo: 18.5
Mega Man: 18
Yoshi: 17
Ryu: 14
Lucario: 14
Lucas: 12
Mr. Game & Watch: 12
Donkey Kong: 11.5
Little Mac: 10
Bowser: 10
Villager: 9
Greninja: 9
Samus: 9
Pikachu: 9
Olimar: 9
Wario: 7
Ike: 6.5
Robin: 6
Peach: 5
Pac-Man: 3.5
Palutena: 3
Link: 3
Marth: 2
King Dedede: 2
Falco: 2
Zelda: 1
Pit: 1

Picture version:

This is very preliminary, as only two weeks have passed and very few significant tournies have occurred. This is basically just a test run of the new system, and a more accurate meta state will likely make itself clear within 1-2 months. I'll continue to document noteworthy tournies and refine where necessary.

So I'm going to consider awful results in the last two tiers.

Looking at this, there are 3 big stinkers here, Peach, Pit, and Dark Pit. These are pretty much the characters virtually acclaimed to be "good" characters. So what gives? People cite these 3 as high tiers. Yet their tournament results are abysmal. Peach might have an excuse because her skill cap is amongst the highest, but I can't vouch for the other Pits. They are easier to play, which should warrent a higher position. Characters like Mario and Cloud are easy to play too. So why aren't these two at least in M2's tier? Because they have no strong advantage state probably. Mario has blitzing speed, Cloud has ridiculous disjoints and lagless attacks, the Pits just kind of do everything...OK. Almost like Mario in Brawl, except better. They actually do everything average instead of below average. Very disappointing showing from these guys.

Really, I never thought these three were high tiers and this proves it. If the bar for upper mid is Luigi and Falcon, with other mid tiers on the rise like TL (why is he not universally high tier yet?) Lucas, and M2, these character should stay in middle of mid tier.

Honorable 4th stinker mention to WFT. I know her viability has been on the fence thanks to John Numbers, but I think she's the next best character out of the failures ive listed here.

Ninja is a bit of a shock too but he will probably rise. Not surprised about Villager and Pikachu. They only have one talented player and pretty much no local or regional players whatsoever.


Edit: Sorry I saw Luigi talk; he is doing fine now without being braindead, I would prioritize other characters first before him for buffs (Jigglypuff hmm?) Although Luigi is one of the first characters that come to mind on who cannot be viable without a secondary. Maybe it's because I main him. I still get womped by ROBs in locals and have to switch to M2 for that one. It is just a horrible matchup, along with Ninja, Pac man, Rosa...

 

[TTTTTsd]

most severe nerf in the history of fighting games.

I'm sorry I feel the absolute need to address this. What?

Have you played SF2? Have you played Dictator in Champion Edition and then played him in Hyper Fighting where he went from best in the game to UNDISPUTED WORST, and then got stuck in mid tier hell in ST? Or Kokonoe post-nerf I hear got it pretty bad in Blazblue.

You can be happy about Diddy, that's cool. But please don't make it sound like any of his nerfs ever made him not Top Tier. He stopped netting free kills with D-Throw > Uair and then the rest of his kit explained itself as people actually explored the character. Minor adjustments and linking improvements were made and like, DSmash got buffed (USmash did too at one point in terms of linking IIRC.)

I can't idle by and leave this alone, I'm really sorry.

 

[GHNeko]

most severe nerf in the history of fighting games.

bruh

you dont play fighting games if you think this.

In the history of fighting games, Diddy has gotten light taps on the buttocks compared to some nasty **** I've seen.

EDIT: and dont defend the statement with, "I said May" or "it's my opinion."

It was a straight up gross exaggeration/hyperbole that can't be objectively backed at all.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja still is a fairly unpopular pick, so it's no surprise that in a tier list based entirely on results would have him low. Doesn't help that Greninja mains don't show up in large tournaments very often.

On the other hand Lucas results make me very happy, I might not play the character anymore but being my Brawl main I still want to see sunflower boy succeed.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Well I meant within the same game, but point taken.

Diddy had just about all his moves severely reduced in kill power and damage, with frame data and hitbox nerfs to boot.

Grab was given more end lag. Lost his grab kill confirms. Fair used too kill early. Up air used to link into itself and kill early with faster startup and a much better hitbox. All smashes reduced in knockback. F smash given more end lag. Everything did much more damage, so he reached kill range (about 85%) much faster. He was given sour spots on fair and fsmash which used to kill regardless of spacing.

All with the EXACT SAME mobility, safety, and a better nuetral that currently makes him top tier now.

And I never claimed his nerfs made him lower than top tier. If you go back to that day on these boards I was one of few Diddy mains not jumping ship. The reason that he didn't go from top to undisputed bottom was release Diddy was so completely and utterly broken that ridiculous a set of nerfs couldn't stop him. He would've easily been worse than Brawl MK with the lower average power level in this game, his meta just never got a chance to develop to the point where he would've been banned for sure.

So no, I'm not gonna try to take it back and say just my opinion man, I'm gonna double down. Possibly the worst nerf within the same game's life cycle. The character's power was beyond cut in half.

 

[Vyrnx]

Diddy nerfs were easily the biggest of any Smash 4 character so far. Don't know how it's a debate. Diddy staying relevant doesn't change the fact that he was bonkers insane pre patch. Diddy's dtilt stuff was around and developed before the nerfs as well but that doesn't really matter.

 

[Solfiner]

Completely result based tier lists can never work in my honest opinion, not in a game with this many characters. Of course certain characters are gonna fall behind, there are almost SIXTY of them.

Theory backed by results will always be the way to go imo.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Completely result based tier lists can never work in my honest opinion, not in a game with this many characters. Of course certain characters are gonna fall behind, there are almost SIXTY of them.

Theory backed by results will always be the way to go imo.

iirc, the Shi-G Tier List is almost entirely results-based.

Oh, and I am not sure if Diddy's nerfs were the biggest in Smash 4 either.
The removal of the roll-cancelled pivot grab having massive range moved Zelda from "solid mid tier" to "unimpressive bottom tier".

 

[Dabuz]

None of you remember Rosa nerfs, imagine having brawl MK dsmash, killing throws, all smashes, tilts, aerials, and jab having more range, speed, power, luma respawn being 8.5 seconds, more health, being heavier, AND BEING ABLE TO BREAK GRABS MID THROW! You are all lucky that never made it past 3ds days...

 

[Shaya]

What happened to Falcon between Melee and Brawl...
Marth between Brawl and [release] S4...

are a lot worse nerfs than anything done to anyone in the smash4 patch cycle.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So don't shut down @Diddy Kong for being happy; we deserve to celebrate. It's poetic justice that Diddy Kong mains are now hugely rewarded for sticking with the character we love for the better part of a year despite him receiving what may have been the most severe nerf in the history of fighting games.

Feels good man.

Celebrating for the character and its players? Sure.

Celebrating ad nauseum? Um.

 

[Gunla]

I'm sorry I feel the absolute need to address this. What?

Have you played SF2? Have you played Dictator in Champion Edition and then played him in Hyper Fighting where he went from best in the game to UNDISPUTED WORST, and then got stuck in mid tier hell in ST? Or Kokonoe post-nerf I hear got it pretty bad in Blazblue.

You can be happy about Diddy, that's cool. But please don't make it sound like any of his nerfs ever made him not Top Tier. He stopped netting free kills with D-Throw > Uair and then the rest of his kit explained itself as people actually explored the character. Minor adjustments and linking improvements were made and like, DSmash got buffed (USmash did too at one point in terms of linking IIRC.)

I can't idle by and leave this alone, I'm really sorry.

Kokonoe was certainly nuts and got tuned down (currently in CF she's a decent character and isn't bottom tier, nor was she after her nerfs in CP), but Dictator is likely by far the most extreme case of a nerf in fighting game history.

In terms of extreme Smash buffs/nerfs, the case for that could go to Brawl -> S4 MK, Brawl -> S4 Marth or Melee -> Brawl Puff/Falcon/Dorf. The former is because MK simply isn't the dominant monster that he was in Brawl with all of his tools, Marth is probably better explained by Shaya, and the latter is... well, rather self-explanatory (with Falcon/Puff having the more extreme cases).

The patches in Smash 4 haven't really made any massive tunings to characters that have made them nonviable (Diddy has always been around the top/high tier realm, Rosa's still top 3/5, Greninja has made his way back up, Sheik is easily in the top 5/10 range, MK is definitely a potent threat, Luigi is still dangerous, etc).

 

[Solfiner]

Haven't seen much of Tyrant before today, but damn his Meta Knight is sick as hell.

 

[bc1910]

No. It was even pre-patch, even with the ridiculous ladder combo. It's probably still around even.
Now, I realize this was several pages ago, but I want to bring it up as an example for something else.

Please don't try to talk about the more obscure MUs for a character you don't play. I'm not trying to call you out or anything, more so just the thread in general, but this is how misinformation gets spread and that's not helpful for anyone. Feel free to talk about obvious losing MUs like Falcon still losing to Pikachu or Falcon/Greninja losing hard to pre-patch Sheik, but if you don't play a character please don't try and go into their MUs unless it's against your own characters. It would be like if, for example, I randomly came into this thread and started saying Greninja loses to ROB (I don't actually think that, I don't know a damn thing about that MU). Whether or not Greninja actually loses to ROB, I don't know, but that's not really the point. The point is that it would be misinformation and it could potentially spread around.
So please, if you don't actually play the MU then let's ask for mains of those characters to give their insight rather than trying to fill in the blanks with our lack of knowledge. There are certainly people who come here and just lurk and read the thread rather than discuss, and they might come here to learn. Let's just make sure that they're learning the correct thing, rather than just learning and potentially continuing to spread misinformation.

Back on topic now, it's interesting (and a little disappointing) that we're back to discussing Bayonetta again. This wouldn't be a bad thing if this thread didn't have a bad habit of complaining about things. So before this turns into another complaining fest about Bayonetta and how she should/will be nerfed, please go out and try and develop counter play rather than complaining. There are no guarantees that there will be another patch. Just because 1.1.5 dropped out of nowhere, doesn't mean it will happen again. It's better to treat the game as if it will never be patched and learn to adapt, because even if there is a patch, that counter play won't go away. So please, get out there. I understand it's hard and that it's frustrating, but it's a lot more useful than complaining.

Ah, but is it misinformation, or just a common opinion you don't agree with? I know I'm not the only one who thinks Falcon loses to MK. I wouldn't call it obscure; the only times I've seen it played on stream, Falcon has lost. And with respect, what would you know about my secondaries? I happen to play a lot of MK. My personal experience isn't hugely important though.

Of course, I don't presume to know more about Falcon's MUs than a Falcon main, and there may be sets between these two that I'm not appreciating. Can you provide any evidence of high level Falcon beating a high level MK?

 

[thehard]

I swear to god, every Sheik down smash I see now always BARELY kills. For that matter, I SEE Sheik down smash. This is the power of small buffs.

 

[Trifroze]

I don't know if cross game transitions should be counted as nerfs in the same way as patches or adjustments within the same engine. A big reason Falcon suffered so hard in the transition to Brawl was due to engine changes and other characters being able to abuse them better. His actual attributes and numbers haven't really changed all that much since Melee unless it's in line with universal changes like fall speeds, he's just sort of riding on whatever engine he's put in. The dash grab they gave him in Smash 4 helps a lot though, still it can be argued this too is a universal change since on average Smash 4 has the best dash grabs by far.

 

[LordShade67]

snip

And then there's Marvel 3 Sentinel, who went from THE go-to anchor in Week 1 Vanilla to "lol this character exists" in Ultimate. Oh, and SFxT Hugo. He longs for the early days when Tekken characters weren't as good.

 

[LancerStaff]

So I'm going to consider awful results in the last two tiers.

Looking at this, there are 3 big stinkers here, Peach, Pit, and Dark Pit. These are pretty much the characters virtually acclaimed to be "good" characters. So what gives? People cite these 3 as high tiers. Yet their tournament results are abysmal. Peach might have an excuse because her skill cap is amongst the highest, but I can't vouch for the other Pits. They are easier to play, which should warrent a higher position. Characters like Mario and Cloud are easy to play too. So why aren't these two at least in M2's tier?

Usually when you see their results ranked it's done so separately, though that wouldn't make a gigantic difference here... For those that haven't heard me say it before, most people that play one play the other depending on the situation. They're really just that similar.

To answer your question, I suppose the problem is that they're only as good as their player. They're pretty easy to play but unlike Mario and Cloud if you're **** you won't win a thing. There's no easy catch-alls to kill raw, though it's not so bad to where you absolutely need a hard read to win. They have some very impressive tools and no major weaknesses to speak of, and with a great player they can achieve equally great results.