Official 4BR Tier List v1.0 - Competitive Impressions

[Das Koopa]

Leo ran a train on Regi. I don't see a scenario where Leo loses this, tbh. He's been completely destroying people today.

 

[Kofu]

Brief research indicates Chag is a Sheik main EDIT: Nope, Bayonetta main.

Update: Leo vs. Regi is Winners Finals :O

Is there a stream I could check out later to watch those matches?

 

[Das Koopa]

Is there a stream I could check out later to watch those matches?

https://www.twitch.tv/ligasmashdf

The VODs will have the Top 8.

Hyuga up 2-1 vs. Regi, Regi currently on Corrin.

2-2!

Edit: Hyuuga beats Regi 3-2. Now we're going to see Leon vs. Hyuga. Two of Mexico's best.

 

[Cereal Bawks]

So Rango took two games off of ESAM, almost resetting the bracket at Tiger Smash 4. I think he probably could've reset it if he didn't screw up his recovery. Either way, I don't see how ESAM could still think the MU is 60:40 in Pika's favor after those games.

 

[Trifroze]

Yeah ZSS' neutral is pretty limited despite her mobility, disjoints and good falling aerials, because on the other side of spectrum she has absolutely no rising aerials/autocancels that hit grounded opponents and both of her burst options (dash grab and dash attack) have long cooldown, thus being very risky.

As a result ZSS is really good at stuffing out approaches, air to airs and punishing shield pressure, but if her opponent just decides to focus on staying grounded and shielding/dodging patiently, it can be really awkward for her to get things started. All of her falling aerials can be reliably shielded by just clicking shield every time she lands, and empty hop into grab isn't really an option due to how slow it is. On top of this, her burst options are unsafe and more likely to get her punished than not. She can still mix it up well enough to manage, but this kind of a playstyle vs ZSS is pretty hard to deal with if you have the lead and your character has any ability to play from a distance. The more I play ZSS vs different people the more I notice this clear difference in her ability to defend vs her ability to approach.

I'm certainly glad zair and up b (mainly for OoS) exist, otherwise her defense wouldn't be nearly as good as it is. It's pretty apparent that a decent amount of thought was put into ZSS' risk/reward ratio, and it's probably why her Brawl dash attack and dtilt didn't carry over. Such a safe dtilt and dash attack would be absolutely silly for ZSS in this game where they'd convert into massive uair/up b juggles.

Also despite having mostly slow-but-safe zoning tools that converted into a lot of damage in Brawl and with Brawl's balance being the way it is, ZSS (or Salem) did relatively well. True, shields were less strong and armor pieces were a thing, but her essence is pretty similar in Smash 4 with a heavier emphasis on grabs and a much better OoS game. So yeah I'm not really saying her neutral is bad, but it can sometimes be.

 

[Das Koopa]

Leo straight-up disrespected Hyuga game 3 by switching to a secondary (Cloud) and rolling a train on him. Leo didn't drop one game in the Top 96, congrats to him.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Top 8 THE ARENA 2016 :

1- MKLeo () ( Undefeated )

2- Hyuga () ( Lost to Javi & Leo )

3- Regi ( ) ( Lost to Leo & Hyuga )

4- Javi () ( Lost to Regi & Hyuga )

5- Addy () ( Lost to Klein & Javi )

5- Wonf ( ) ( Lost to Leo & Hyuga )

7- Chag ( ) ( Lost to Hyuga, came from Losers Top 96 so idk who sent him there )

7- Emm_72K () ( Lost to Wonf & Addy )

This may look a bit cloudy, but Leo went Cloud vs Hyuga only in Game 3.
I don't think i missed anyone, i don't think Addy ever went Dedede, and i don't remember if Javi picked anyone else.

 

[Das Koopa]

The Arena 2016 Top 16 (March 25th-27th 2016)

Spoiler

1st: Leo (, )
2nd: Hyuga ()
3rd: Regi (, )
4th: Javi (, )
5th: Womf ()
5th: Addy ()
7th: Chag ()
7th: Emm_72k ()
9th: Nalga ()
9th: Chota ()
9th: Serge (,)
9th: Bedgar ()
13th: Kevin ()
13th: Manzano ()
13th: Pollo ()
13th: Ramos ()

 

[sedrf]

No sheik in top 8 seems pretty suprising

 

[Shady Shaymin]

Good lord, Leo is an effing monster. He actually landed some uair strings in that tournament. He and his metaknight just gave a nice big "**** you" to Sakurai.

Disappointing performance from hyuga in grand finals, but wow, did he give it his all tonight or what? His comeback against that javi, his complete bodying of wonf's bayonetta...he's going places for sure.

 

[Yikarur]

Most Non Top Level Sheik players have switched to Cloud or Bayonetta so far. Very interesting

 

[Das Koopa]

"What nerfs?" - Leo 2016

 

[Ninety]

And of course they have players named "nalga" and "chota" tied, haha.

 

[Dre89]

OK, so who does actually lose to that could keep him out of (the bottom of) high tier? He's been continuously pulling results that are at least comparable to the other characters in that grouping. He probably loses hard to Bayonetta; the results are certainly in her favor. Plus, I'd argue that pitting a character that struggles vs. shields against one with a brilliant OoS option that nets massive damage and even kills favors the latter in theory as well. Rosalina might be awful too but I'd kind of like to see this actually played out at a high level before I conclude that. Going by results, MK was pretty bad but still winnable pre-patch, but I'm not sure how the MK nerfs affect this match. Otherwise, I really can't see this guy losing anything worse than -1 right now. And since characters like Ness and Villager aren't disqualified from a lower A ranking by one or two bad MUs, I don't think TL should be either. But maybe he struggles against other characters that I'm not aware of.

Cloud is really bad for him. Bayo may be worse but I don't know the match up. He still loses to Sheik post-nerf and struggles to Rosa. He pretty much loses to anyone with good rush down.

He also doesn't really abolsutely body anyone below him due to the nature of his kit, because most characters have better reward than he does from his safe play. He's the type of character that outplays you an entire stock then you just kill him with a frame 10 rage move.

Hyuga just makes him look good because he's better than most players. He gets away with his aggressive play style because he has great reads, but remember he's committing with a character with poor range for a swordie and worse frame data than DK.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Abadango's Mewtwo defeating Nyanko's Bayonetta is up on YouTube for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aHE4mf300

 

[PK Gaming]

Tangentially related, but a Bayonetta CPU just pulled off a KO-combo on someone and it was goddamn hilarious.

(Not trying to make any hard points here, the video is just funny)

EDIT: Edited for FallofBrawl's convenience

 

[FallofBrawl]

Can people stop referring to Bayo's death combos as zero-deaths when they're clearly not..please?

Side note: Would it be crazy to say characters that are grab-centric (Mario, DK, Bowser) do well against Bayonetta?

Also does DK's invincible tilts still get him witch timed or is his hurtbox too far for that (at max distance)

 

[Lavani]

Also does DK's invincible tilts still get him witch timed or is his hurtbox too far for that (at max distance)

They aren't projectiles, so they get him witch timed.

Bayo's bullet arts also can be Witch Timed from max distance as they aren't projectiles either.

Witch Time's slow range is either "infinite if a direct attack, or slightly less than spaced RosaLuma jab2 if projectile".

 

[RonNewcomb]

OK, so who does actually lose to that could keep him out of (the bottom of) high tier? He's been continuously pulling results that are at least comparable to the other characters in that grouping. He probably loses hard to Bayonetta; the results are certainly in her favor. Plus, I'd argue that pitting a character that struggles vs. shields against one with a brilliant OoS option that nets massive damage and even kills favors the latter in theory as well.

You mention her results over Tink at the same time everyone's linking a Mexican tourney where Hyuga 3-0's Bayo in Top 8. I was legit confused when you mentioned "a character that struggles vs shields" cause I assumed you were referring to Bayo at first. Oh, she has a kill throw? Not as good as Tink's. Neither of them have a grab game worth a darn. (Neither does Cloud for that matter.)

Anyway, brilliant OoS options doesn't matter much when the only thing hitting your shield is projectiles, zair, and a tethergrab.

Tink has good MUs with most chars below him, but some of the high and top tier MUs aren't so hot. He also isn't as easy to learn. For example, vs Rosa I prefer big brother over little brother. Cloud sucks, Diddy, Sonic & Sheik ain't fun, I'd also prefer big brother vs Ryu. Against the Captain I could go either way.

 

[conTAgi0n]

Can people stop referring to Bayo's death combos as zero-deaths when they're clearly not..please?

Side note: Would it be crazy to say characters that are grab-centric (Mario, DK, Bowser) do well against Bayonetta?

Also does DK's invincible tilts still get him witch timed or is his hurtbox too far for that (at max distance)

Up until now I've made the judgment call just to lurk on this thread but this is something I have been thinking about myself. I won't be so bold as to say Bowser has an advantageous or even an even matchup with Bayonetta. At least in theory though, he's got a lot more going for him against Bayonetta than he does against other top tiers.

Because of Bayonetta's fall speed, it is very easy for Bowser to get the full 30 percent off uthrow -> nair against her, and uthrow -> uair kills her at like 84 or something without rage. Thus Bayonetta really cannot afford to get grabbed more than a few times in this matchup.

By contrast, really the only thing to discourage Bowser from holding shield is Bayonetta's up throw, because it puts him in the air above her, and Bowser is a pretty big target. I am not sure exactly how this would play out in general, but my experience so far is that if Bowser jumps away and heads for the ledge, he should be able to avoid getting death combo'd from this position fairly reliably. That part I am more tentative about though. I would really need to sit down with a good Bayo and lab that situation out to say so with more confidence.

Tough guy allows Bowser to ignore bullet climax until past 100 percent, and both dtilt and ftilt stuff Bayonetta's grounded side b pretty easily. With the range and power on his moves, his dash speed, and the huge threat of his grab, Bowser definitely has the tools to beat Bayonetta's ground game if he plays patiently. When Bayonetta is in the air, Bowser can basically just abuse shield and look for openings to punish landings with his great grab range. Bowser does not care about chip damage at all in this matchup, so he can afford to be very patient.

Of course the obvious problem is that Bowser is famous for having trouble landing, and is combo food, so if a competent Bayonetta gets Bowser off the ground, it is difficult for him get back down without losing a stock.

As explained above though, Bowser can give Bayonetta some headaches in neutral if he is prepared to play extremely patiently, and only needs like 3 grabs to close out a stock.

I'm not going to speculate about the matchup ratio, but let's just say that as a Bowser player myself, I'll take the Bayo matchup over the Cloud matchup any day of the week.

 

[KTVX]

Combined top 16 usage results from 2GGT, OUTFOXX'D, PPT, and BG2. (Still waiting on MARS and The Arena)

Used:
x9
x8
x6
x6
x5
x4
x4
x3
x3
x3
x3
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2
x2












Not Used:



Hey, remember that time everyone was 100% sure that was the new meta?

Narrow it down to top 8 and top 3.

 

[HoSmash4]

Most Non Top Level Sheik players have switched to Cloud or Bayonetta so far. Very interesting

It's to be expected as Sheik had the best risk:reward ratio. Now cloud and bayinetta have better risk:reward and to be honest not being able to kill is kinda taxing.

Also obviously a lot of people played sheik because they wanted to play the best character.

 

[Das Koopa]

My new Data Tier List model is looking pretty good. Any more tournaments this month? (noteworthy regionals, mainly)

 

[ARGHETH]

Narrow it down to top 8 and top 3.

sigh
2ggt, outfoxx'd, ppt, bg2, mars, and the arena.
+tus because why not.

Spoiler: Top 8

Spoiler: Top 3

 

[Mr. Johan]

Kansas also had a monthly Saturday, and the character variety extends even to local/interstate level.

In order

MJG -
Mr. Doom -
Zeton -
Johan -
Muse -
Regulating Mofo -
Dansdaman -
Blazey -
Sand_Veil -
Enoki -
Steeler -
Quote: -
Pokemon Virus -
Shalashaska -
Crome -
Clel -

3 character overlaps, none of which were in the Top 8.

The grassrootiest of grassroots will be fairly diverse for a while if its something to go by.

 

[bc1910]

OK, so who does actually lose to that could keep him out of (the bottom of) high tier? He's been continuously pulling results that are at least comparable to the other characters in that grouping. He probably loses hard to Bayonetta; the results are certainly in her favor. Plus, I'd argue that pitting a character that struggles vs. shields against one with a brilliant OoS option that nets massive damage and even kills favors the latter in theory as well. Rosalina might be awful too but I'd kind of like to see this actually played out at a high level before I conclude that. Going by results, MK was pretty bad but still winnable pre-patch, but I'm not sure how the MK nerfs affect this match. Otherwise, I really can't see this guy losing anything worse than -1 right now. And since characters like Ness and Villager aren't disqualified from a lower A ranking by one or two bad MUs, I don't think TL should be either. But maybe he struggles against other characters that I'm not aware of.

This really depends on your definition of high tier. Are you using the BR's definition on the previous list? Or the more broad definition with around 20 characters (or 28 in ZeRo's case)?

I'm gonna talk about the latter because I do think the former is very flawed (we've never had less than 1/4 of the roster be considered high tier in the history of Smash, and this is the game with the best balance and biggest roster). I don't think anyone's denying that Toon Link is a high tier. He has the results for it, he's great on paper with his fantastic projectile game and Hyuga is very consistent. However, he does have two pretty bad MUs in Rosalina and Cloud. Both are top 5 characters, one is extremely common even as a pocket, and both can roadblock him in tournament. This keeps him around the middle-low end of high tier for me.

I would also say TL lacks that real breakout result that characters around him have achieved - iStudying/Greninja at BEAST 6, Earth/Pit winning the Japanese national etc. Closest thing I can think of is Hyuga's 12th at Genesis which is amazing because that tourney was so stacked, but it may not be quite what TL needs. Correct me if I'm wrong on TL's results though.

Now if you're using the BR's definition, which I think you are considering Ness and Villager's shoutouts, then I don't think Toon Link qualifies at all. Whilst Ness and Villager have their bad MUs, they also have polarizing strengths that let them beat up characters below and around them. Their bad MUs can never autopilot against them, even Rosalina has to get Ness offstage before she can abuse her MU-breaking advantage and that's no mean feat in itself. Toon Link never feels overwhelming. The closest he comes is when he's really in the swing of his projectile game, which can feel suffocating to play against until you remember the shield button exists. Not to say TL "loses to shield" because I think that's a silly phrase, but it definitely takes the heat off when you're fighting him.

For what it's worth I don't think Pikachu qualifies as a high tier in the BR's definition either and Villager is only there because of Ranai. Again, I think their definition is way too narrow and we need to remember that Smash games usually have about 1/3 of the roster as high/top tiers - a ~20 char high/top tier would fit this game fine.

This got a bit rambly but hopefully you can see where I'm coming from with Toony.

 

[Yonder]

Are we only including westener results? If not, like someone posted about with the M2 vs Bayo GFs, http://challonge.com/tus_tournament_4

Out of 96, Abadango takes it in a best of 5 I think it was. The main points I grabbed from that matchup is that Bayo's witch time is silly at the edge (free D smash to death) and M2's frame 2 (?) airdodge and floatiness let him escape all of Bayo's ladder kills off the tops. I think it's a close matchup indeed, to which I believe M2 also shares a close matchup with Cloud, coming out victorious against arguably the current best characters in the game.

Yeah M2 gets wrecked by Fox, and doesn't do amazing vs Falcon (who I note because hscmay possibly be on the rise) but Bayo and Cloud are good matchups to not get rawked in. He even does OK vs Rosa due to just how easy he can tumble Luma to death (dash attack at the edge automatically kills Luma).

I can't vouch for the Diddy matchup who has definitely, definitely provsn himself to be top 5 at the very least. He sure as heck should be knocking Ryu and Pikachu down below at least.

I don't know much for the ZSS matchup either but I don't think M2 wins it or does very well in it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Up until now I've made the judgment call just to lurk on this thread but this is something I have been thinking about myself. I won't be so bold as to say Bowser has an advantageous or even an even matchup with Bayonetta. At least in theory though, he's got a lot more going for him against Bayonetta than he does against other top tiers.

Because of Bayonetta's fall speed, it is very easy for Bowser to get the full 30 percent off uthrow -> nair against her, and uthrow -> uair kills her at like 84 or something without rage. Thus Bayonetta really cannot afford to get grabbed more than a few times in this matchup.

By contrast, really the only thing to discourage Bowser from holding shield is Bayonetta's up throw, because it puts him in the air above her, and Bowser is a pretty big target. I am not sure exactly how this would play out in general, but my experience so far is that if Bowser jumps away and heads for the ledge, he should be able to avoid getting death combo'd from this position fairly reliably. That part I am more tentative about though. I would really need to sit down with a good Bayo and lab that situation out to say so with more confidence.

Tough guy allows Bowser to ignore bullet climax until past 100 percent, and both dtilt and ftilt stuff Bayonetta's grounded side b pretty easily. With the range and power on his moves, his dash speed, and the huge threat of his grab, Bowser definitely has the tools to beat Bayonetta's ground game if he plays patiently. When Bayonetta is in the air, Bowser can basically just abuse shield and look for openings to punish landings with his great grab range. Bowser does not care about chip damage at all in this matchup, so he can afford to be very patient.

Of course the obvious problem is that Bowser is famous for having trouble landing, and is combo food, so if a competent Bayonetta gets Bowser off the ground, it is difficult for him get back down without losing a stock.

As explained above though, Bowser can give Bayonetta some headaches in neutral if he is prepared to play extremely patiently, and only needs like 3 grabs to close out a stock.

I'm not going to speculate about the matchup ratio, but let's just say that as a Bowser player myself, I'll take the Bayo matchup over the Cloud matchup any day of the week.

Honestly...

As a main, I feel the same way.

is much easier than or especially for mostly the same reasons.

has a harder time with actually comboing her but landing and recovering is easier as we have more options to do so.

Just wish we had an equivalent for tough guy. I mean Flare Bltiz is useful and hits like a truck, but it can get predictable sometimes.

I wonder, what happens if Whirling Fortress is Witch Timed... Does it clank with stuff? What about Bowser's Down Smash?

 

[Yikarur]

I don't think Mewtwo gets "wrecked" by anyone at this point. Mewtwo is a really good character overall now.
Mewtwo has one of the best edgeguard games in the game. I think Fox and Falco have to be insanely careful when facing Mewtwo.

 

[Mo433]

Both Fox and Falcon are incredibly good at breaking Mewtwo's zoning ability. Falcon is starting to become a less threatening MU thanks to Mewtwo's new speed, but I still think Fox is a huge threat for Mewtwo.

Fox has speed, combos AND a reflector. Off stage Mewtwo does win against Fox, but it's pretty hard to catch Fox and get him to that point.

 

[Deleted member]

I agree with Mo433 . Both are far from pleasant MUs at all. I'd say Fox is close to Mewtwo's worst matchup. He just gives Mewtwo so little room to breathe and can easily put him in uncomfortable spots, especially when Mewtwo is getting up from the ledge.

 

[G. Stache]

Question about Villager since I'm not too knowledgable about the character: Doesn't Villager lose pretty hard against Rosa, Cloud and possibly Bayonetta? I know Ranai is an amazing player and has shown that Villager can prove to be extremely dangerous given the right person (even managing to bring Zero's Sheik to game 5 pre-patch). But if Villager loses to 3 characters that are quite possibly the top 3 characters right now, then how well do we see Villager doing in the near future?

 

[BlazGreen]

A lot of Mewtwo's matchups have changed recently and I've had to reevaluate who he loses to now. Falcon and ZSS used to win convincingly but now I'm not so sure. Blue vs Nairo gave me hope that that matchup was doable and 1.1.5 made things even better with the nerfs to ZSS and buffs to Mewtwo. I haven't seen anything from the Falcon MU since before 1.1.3 but theoretically it should be close to even now since the buffs to Mewtwo's aerials and speed make Falcon even more susceptible to combos and he gets absolutely bodied off stage. The mobility buffs make it harder for Falcon to constantly keep the pressure on Mewtwo but of course if he does get in then Mewtwo is in for a world of hurt.

As far as actual losing matchups go then I'd say he has a tough time against MK, Fox and maybe ZSS still, however I don't think Fox is as bad a MU as people think. I recently saw a 10 game set between two of the UK's best players ( KillerJawz and C.R.Z) who play M2 and Fox respectively and it changed my opinion on MU to an extent.

I still think it's a losing MU but not a curbstomp. As for MK I don't have any video evidence but his size and mobilty have always been a problem for Mewtwo and despite the nerfs, he can still combo Mewtwo a lot due to his large frame. I'd say this is his worst MU.

 

[Nobie]

Abadango's Mewtwo defeating Nyanko's Bayonetta is up on YouTube for those interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n6aHE4mf300

Observations and Thoughts:

1) Either Mewtwo, Abadango, or both are really good at following Bat Within with meaty hitboxes. A lot of turning points and even kills came about because Abadango successfully followed up on Bat Within.

2) Mewtwo's defensive stats are such that he falls out a lot of elevator combos at the crucial moment (before he can die).

3) Mewtwo has a rather unique fall speed because has an AVERAGE fall speed both a BELOW AVERAGE gravity, whereas most characters will have a gravity to match their fall speed. This means he has a kind of floaty feeling but he also dies later than one might expect, because higher gravity causes your character to die more quickly (and most fast fallers have high gravity to prevent them from living forever).

4) Personally, I have a tendency to fight as Mewtwo with my back to the ledge. I've always thought that it was just because I was bad and didn't exert enough stage control, but then I see it happening to Abadango as well. I'm thinking now that Mewtwo is just a character that tends to fight close to the ledge because he has the mobility to get out of there if needed, and the space created by retreating is usually better than being center stage but having to fight too close for comfort.

5) Re: the conversation about Mewtwo vs. Falcon and Fox, neither of those matchups are great fun but it's those rushdown characters where the speed buffs help the most. It used to be that, even if you ran away from Falcon anticipating his dash grab, he could still grab you regardless. Now there's more breathing room.

 

[Megamang]

Fox's reflector can be a liability, as losing a game of shadow ball ping pong gets exponentially more damaging each rally.


I noticed abadango would often cut his charge short, since this allowed him to play 'am i firing a 24% projectile or just charging it to 25% and putting it away' basically constantly, which is a high pressure neutral.
Also, his nair punishes were on point, nair grab especially looked damn useful.
I think the future for m2 might be fox specific combos, he is often susceptible to these and mewtwo has some quick, hard hitting moves with low endlag...

Utilt usmash is a confirm that works on exactly who you'd want it to, and the tail is basically a sword except at the very base, contrary to popular belief... go hit some bumpers, its pretty revealing.

Mewtwo is in a good place.

 

[Ninety]

So, not to derail, but I've a metagame question. I wasn't that active back then, but I remember a hell of a lot of buzz around the shieldstun patch (1.1.2?). Did it have a marked impact on the meta after all? Perhaps making kill confirms out of grab less dominant, paving the way for Cloud?

 

[Trifroze]

A lot of Mewtwo's matchups have changed recently and I've had to reevaluate who he loses to now. Falcon and ZSS used to win convincingly but now I'm not so sure. Blue vs Nairo gave me hope that that matchup was doable and 1.1.5 made things even better with the nerfs to ZSS and buffs to Mewtwo. I haven't seen anything from the Falcon MU since before 1.1.3 but theoretically it should be close to even now since the buffs to Mewtwo's aerials and speed make Falcon even more susceptible to combos and he gets absolutely bodied off stage. The mobility buffs make it harder for Falcon to constantly keep the pressure on Mewtwo but of course if he does get in then Mewtwo is in for a world of hurt.

since we're describing matchups by only listing positive traits

I should balance it out by adding that Mewtwo struggles with landing pretty hard, when Falcon and ZSS have some of the best if not the best juggle games and landing traps around. I can also imagine getting off the ledge being hard for Mewtwo in both matchups since jumping makes him particularly vulnerable and he doesn't have any notable ways to deal with Falcon's repeated jab or ZSS' down smash. Mewtwo also has to deal with continuous pressure in neutral against both characters, so I'm pretty sure both of these are still some of Mewtwo's hardest matchups.

what comes to Blue vs Nairo, the GF from that tournament which went 0-4 should also be noted

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox reflector is never an option against Shadow Ball. Never.

 

[Trunks159]

Big Names From Pound (Apr 2, 3):

Nairo
Dabuz
Esam
Mr. R/
MVD
Tweek
Ally
Abadango others
Larry Lurr //
Void /
Wizzrobe
Marss
iStudying
Pugwest
Mr. E
K9sbruce
Zenyou
Pink Fresh
DJ Jack
Seagull Joe
Scatt
Rango
Day
DKwill
San
and a few more...

 

[Y2Kay]

Fox doesn't beat Mewtwo because he has a reflector, that's not how Shadow Ball works.

C'mon didn't I rant about this a while ago?