Previous D3 discussions:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186738
Index:
1. Overview/Normal Play:
- Summaries
- D3's Style(s) of Play
- Marth's Style(s) of Play
- Positioning/Zoning
2. Killing Methods
- Killing
-Getting Killed
3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game
- Recovering as Marth
- Against D3's recovery
4. Moves
-Down Throw(D3)
5. Stages
6. Videos
1. Overview/Normal Play
Summaries
It's a match up about caution.
Dedede will struggle to approach you (he really only has dash to shield / spot dodge); otherwise he may try rar bair or try to beat out a counter approach with ftilt.
~Shaya
ehh i think this matchup is really straight forward. you both space until dedede gets a grab or marth breaks dedede's zone
~mikeHAZE
just avoid ddd's grab f-tilt b-air and juggle him in the air/recovery
rest is experience-based
~Junk
Overall, this match-up is a really lame one to fight, since you either going to win by a bit, or get horribly ***** if he keeps landing grabs.
It's probably 45:55 Dedede's favor, but I wouldn't kill you for saying even or 40:60 Dedede. It's a lame match-up, but not impossible once you learn it.
~Raziek
D3's Style(s) of Play
Marth's Style(s) of Play
Anyway not the most experienced person in the world here, but for the most part you if you can avoid getting grabbed then you win the match.
~Shaya
Dealing with Dedede's grab range is mad gay, as already noted. Rising Nair, Retreating Fair, and Cross-up Nair or Fair are my favorite ways to deal with the ground game. If he tries to space you with waddle toss, PS and get in there quick, because those things have a lot of lag. F-Throw x3 to F-Smash is guaranteed, but don't waste time and % fishing for it. If you CAN get it, it's an easy way to get Dedede off-stage and into the part of the match-up where we win.
If your opponent likes to play the neutral situation with aerials (bair), DON'T CHALLENGE IT WITH FAIR. You will get hit almost every time, and trading hits is NOT something we want to do with Dedede. Use Nair or optimally bair, our bair out-disjoints his and has sexy range.
Watch out for ground inhale shenanigans. If you're ballsy, DS his face if he tries it. Otherwise, just stay out of it. Worth noting: You can counter the windbox, but it often counters in the wrong direction, so you get inhaled anyway.
DO NOT DASH IN. If you dash in, you are PROBABLY going to get hit by a Gordo. Walk in and react to F-tilt/projectiles, if you are attempting the ground route.
Jet Hammer is really awful, don't ever get hit by this. If you do, pray it was because he broke your shield somehow.
~Raziek
Positioning/Zoning
Anyway talking about some specific zoning.
Dedede only has grab from infront of him. Like Snake, full hop rising retreating aerials **** all over what he can do; we can react to everything else.
Our back air beats his. He cannot compete with our back air
~Shaya
marths back air is only 1 frame slower too iirc......
~Blacknight99923
If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.
On the matter of dancing blade, it's really unsafe in this match-up, since doing anything unsafe on Dedede's shield means you get grabbed and it's game over. Don't let that happen. It's still GREAT, just risky as all hell.
USE NAIR A LOT. SERIOUSLY.
D-tilt is also pretty sexy, just don't use it enough to get close enough for a shield-grab, and watch out for his godly spot-dodge.
~Raziek
You can also spike d3 at the top of his upB.
~mikeHAZE
IF d3 lands on the battlefield platform with his up-b, its a free tipper fsmash... I dont see anybody else doing it
MintyFlesh
=================================================
2. Killing Moves
To Kill D3
Getting Killed By D3:
When we're in kill percent (Which is about 100%), you have to play like you're going to die at any second. Because, you will. U-tilt has preposterous range and will kill you at like 110%. D-Smash is another major one to watch out for, as are off-stage Fair and Bair. B-Throw by the ledge will also kill you around 120%
~Raziek
=================================================
3. Recovery
For Marth:
On the flip side, if HE gets a grab on the ground, prepare your cornhole. If he's close to a ledge, he's either gonna CG you ACROSS the stage, then F-Throw, or just F-Throw where he is. He also might B-Throw if he's not sure he can get the CG 100%.
If you ARE getting CG'd, don't try to DS out. If he's doing it right, there's nothing you can do. Just walk away, mash jump, and react to whatever he does. My friend likes to use Dash Attack after a CG just because EVERYONE instinctively spot-dodges and gets ***** by it. Don't die at 100% to the Hug.
Once you're offstage, you're in big trouble. If you can come in really high, DO THAT. Dedede shouldn't EVER be juggling you, just SDI out of his Uair. Coming in at jump height is probably your worst option, because he'll just fair or bair you back out. Counter it if you can, but don't get baited.
Second Safest option is recovering low (Since recovering high is optimal), as it is in a lot of match-ups. Be patient, use your DB stall, and land on the stage if you HAVE to.
If you make it to the ledge, getting back onstage is still a job. Honestly, if he's up in your face, just poke him through the ledge with fair until he moves away. There's not really a ton he can do about it, as far as I know.
All your other options are basically going to get you *****.
If you ledge-roll, you are going to get re-grabbed, eat a backwards u-tilt (This kills at like 115%) or D-Smash (Kills a bit earlier), or get d-tilted back out.
Below 100%, the quick get up IS an option if you are fast. Don't rely on it though, and this will get beat out by d-tilt EVERY time.
Ledge-jump is ok, but not great. If the Dedede is paying attention, he'll jump up and fair or bair.
Ledge-drop nair onto the stage is an AWFUL idea, and you should get punished for this every time.
If you actually manage to get back onstage, congratulations! You're now back at neutral situation and are one grab away from getting ***** again.
~Raziek
For D3:
Once Dedede is off-stage, we have a couple options. If he tries to come in high, you don't really have a whole lot you can do. If he uses Up-B to do it, shield, then hit him back out. If he just uses his ridiculous fall speed, he probably successfully reset the situation.
If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.
Chase him out with ledgejump bair, it has ridiculous range and is actually a solid tipper kill around 100% or so, if you land it. If you're chasing him high, beware of Inhale. This should only ever be a move you fall for once.
Beware of his fair, the hitbox is HUGE. Counter it on reaction for an easy 17 or 18%.
Basically, this match-up revolves around just keeping him offstage until he's dead. Abuse his hilariously linear recovery. It make take you until 180% to do it, but eventually he's gonna die.
~Raziek
When DDD uses upb from below the stage, marth can grab him on his way up. Don't start pummeling immediately after the grab, otherwise it auto-releases and DDD instantly grabs the ledge. If after the release and DDD had a few jumps left, try and dtilt him as he goes for the ledge. Otherwise, when he up's again, regrab and start the whole process over.
At high percents (usmash killing range), follow their upb on stage and go for it.
~Nike20
[In response to Nike20] Actually, this isn't only true to marth.
You're correct in the immediate pummel, only i should tell you it's only if you BUFFER pummel they auto break. I'm not sure if grabbing the edge is DI dependant or not, but it is a very good option. The autobreak is actually really good for opponents trying to mash out really quickly, as they will occasionally buffer an aerial and die. the up b grab is an infinite if you walk backwards after every release. if you're at the edge d3 can di away and out of your grab range.
Someone posted earlier that the best option for his fast landing up b is to shield. while this is always an option (followed by a free smash) it's better to keep him off of the stage with counter. You can even catch him in the air. This is very oldschool but nobody seems to do it anymore.
If they still have jumps after you grab them from up b, you can always just grab the edge with invincibility. you have enough time from when they can jump, to fast grab the ledge. if you want to be risky/tricky, you can dolphin slash regrab to refresh your invinicibilty, thus making them waste their jumps and you getting a free follow up.
edit: if he is able to DI in to grab the edge after the pummel break, you can always forward throw and he wont regain jumps. He'll be sent out far enough to where you can follow him up with any aerial and possibly a smash if you react fast enough or get a read.
~mikeHAZE
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4. Moves
Down Throw
Don't try to DS out of the CG... If they're doing it right, it doesn't work. If you're mashing, well, they can hear that and shield. Just hold away from DDD. If they mess up, at all, you'll just walk out unharmed.
~C.J.
If you ARE getting CG'd, don't try to DS out. If he's doing it right, there's nothing you can do. Just walk away, mash jump, and react to whatever he does. My friend likes to use Dash Attack after a CG just because EVERYONE instinctively spot-dodges and gets ***** by it. Don't die at 100% to the Hug.
~Raziek
=================================================
5. Stages
Any not FD neutral is fine, probably ban FD unless you have a pocket Falco
Brinstar and RC are pretty bad for us but just run away at least there are platforms and pocket MK might work if your MK is anywhere near decent.
I say ban FD because you can't really run away on that stage like you can on Bristar or RC
~Punishment Divine
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11150353&postcount=27
~Raziek
=================================================
6. Videos
billybegood(D3) vs. Raziek(Marth): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3PgqzTBaE
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186738
King Dedede
Index:
1. Overview/Normal Play:
- Summaries
- D3's Style(s) of Play
- Marth's Style(s) of Play
- Positioning/Zoning
2. Killing Methods
- Killing
-Getting Killed
3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game
- Recovering as Marth
- Against D3's recovery
4. Moves
-Down Throw(D3)
5. Stages
6. Videos
1. Overview/Normal Play
Summaries
It's a match up about caution.
Dedede will struggle to approach you (he really only has dash to shield / spot dodge); otherwise he may try rar bair or try to beat out a counter approach with ftilt.
~Shaya
ehh i think this matchup is really straight forward. you both space until dedede gets a grab or marth breaks dedede's zone
~mikeHAZE
just avoid ddd's grab f-tilt b-air and juggle him in the air/recovery
rest is experience-based
~Junk
Overall, this match-up is a really lame one to fight, since you either going to win by a bit, or get horribly ***** if he keeps landing grabs.
It's probably 45:55 Dedede's favor, but I wouldn't kill you for saying even or 40:60 Dedede. It's a lame match-up, but not impossible once you learn it.
~Raziek
D3's Style(s) of Play
Marth's Style(s) of Play
Anyway not the most experienced person in the world here, but for the most part you if you can avoid getting grabbed then you win the match.
~Shaya
Dealing with Dedede's grab range is mad gay, as already noted. Rising Nair, Retreating Fair, and Cross-up Nair or Fair are my favorite ways to deal with the ground game. If he tries to space you with waddle toss, PS and get in there quick, because those things have a lot of lag. F-Throw x3 to F-Smash is guaranteed, but don't waste time and % fishing for it. If you CAN get it, it's an easy way to get Dedede off-stage and into the part of the match-up where we win.
If your opponent likes to play the neutral situation with aerials (bair), DON'T CHALLENGE IT WITH FAIR. You will get hit almost every time, and trading hits is NOT something we want to do with Dedede. Use Nair or optimally bair, our bair out-disjoints his and has sexy range.
Watch out for ground inhale shenanigans. If you're ballsy, DS his face if he tries it. Otherwise, just stay out of it. Worth noting: You can counter the windbox, but it often counters in the wrong direction, so you get inhaled anyway.
DO NOT DASH IN. If you dash in, you are PROBABLY going to get hit by a Gordo. Walk in and react to F-tilt/projectiles, if you are attempting the ground route.
Jet Hammer is really awful, don't ever get hit by this. If you do, pray it was because he broke your shield somehow.
~Raziek
Positioning/Zoning
Anyway talking about some specific zoning.
Dedede only has grab from infront of him. Like Snake, full hop rising retreating aerials **** all over what he can do; we can react to everything else.
Our back air beats his. He cannot compete with our back air
~Shaya
marths back air is only 1 frame slower too iirc......
~Blacknight99923
If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.
On the matter of dancing blade, it's really unsafe in this match-up, since doing anything unsafe on Dedede's shield means you get grabbed and it's game over. Don't let that happen. It's still GREAT, just risky as all hell.
USE NAIR A LOT. SERIOUSLY.
D-tilt is also pretty sexy, just don't use it enough to get close enough for a shield-grab, and watch out for his godly spot-dodge.
~Raziek
You can also spike d3 at the top of his upB.
~mikeHAZE
IF d3 lands on the battlefield platform with his up-b, its a free tipper fsmash... I dont see anybody else doing it
MintyFlesh
=================================================
2. Killing Moves
To Kill D3
Getting Killed By D3:
When we're in kill percent (Which is about 100%), you have to play like you're going to die at any second. Because, you will. U-tilt has preposterous range and will kill you at like 110%. D-Smash is another major one to watch out for, as are off-stage Fair and Bair. B-Throw by the ledge will also kill you around 120%
~Raziek
=================================================
3. Recovery
For Marth:
On the flip side, if HE gets a grab on the ground, prepare your cornhole. If he's close to a ledge, he's either gonna CG you ACROSS the stage, then F-Throw, or just F-Throw where he is. He also might B-Throw if he's not sure he can get the CG 100%.
If you ARE getting CG'd, don't try to DS out. If he's doing it right, there's nothing you can do. Just walk away, mash jump, and react to whatever he does. My friend likes to use Dash Attack after a CG just because EVERYONE instinctively spot-dodges and gets ***** by it. Don't die at 100% to the Hug.
Once you're offstage, you're in big trouble. If you can come in really high, DO THAT. Dedede shouldn't EVER be juggling you, just SDI out of his Uair. Coming in at jump height is probably your worst option, because he'll just fair or bair you back out. Counter it if you can, but don't get baited.
Second Safest option is recovering low (Since recovering high is optimal), as it is in a lot of match-ups. Be patient, use your DB stall, and land on the stage if you HAVE to.
If you make it to the ledge, getting back onstage is still a job. Honestly, if he's up in your face, just poke him through the ledge with fair until he moves away. There's not really a ton he can do about it, as far as I know.
All your other options are basically going to get you *****.
If you ledge-roll, you are going to get re-grabbed, eat a backwards u-tilt (This kills at like 115%) or D-Smash (Kills a bit earlier), or get d-tilted back out.
Below 100%, the quick get up IS an option if you are fast. Don't rely on it though, and this will get beat out by d-tilt EVERY time.
Ledge-jump is ok, but not great. If the Dedede is paying attention, he'll jump up and fair or bair.
Ledge-drop nair onto the stage is an AWFUL idea, and you should get punished for this every time.
If you actually manage to get back onstage, congratulations! You're now back at neutral situation and are one grab away from getting ***** again.
~Raziek
For D3:
Once Dedede is off-stage, we have a couple options. If he tries to come in high, you don't really have a whole lot you can do. If he uses Up-B to do it, shield, then hit him back out. If he just uses his ridiculous fall speed, he probably successfully reset the situation.
If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.
Chase him out with ledgejump bair, it has ridiculous range and is actually a solid tipper kill around 100% or so, if you land it. If you're chasing him high, beware of Inhale. This should only ever be a move you fall for once.
Beware of his fair, the hitbox is HUGE. Counter it on reaction for an easy 17 or 18%.
Basically, this match-up revolves around just keeping him offstage until he's dead. Abuse his hilariously linear recovery. It make take you until 180% to do it, but eventually he's gonna die.
~Raziek
When DDD uses upb from below the stage, marth can grab him on his way up. Don't start pummeling immediately after the grab, otherwise it auto-releases and DDD instantly grabs the ledge. If after the release and DDD had a few jumps left, try and dtilt him as he goes for the ledge. Otherwise, when he up's again, regrab and start the whole process over.
At high percents (usmash killing range), follow their upb on stage and go for it.
~Nike20
[In response to Nike20] Actually, this isn't only true to marth.
You're correct in the immediate pummel, only i should tell you it's only if you BUFFER pummel they auto break. I'm not sure if grabbing the edge is DI dependant or not, but it is a very good option. The autobreak is actually really good for opponents trying to mash out really quickly, as they will occasionally buffer an aerial and die. the up b grab is an infinite if you walk backwards after every release. if you're at the edge d3 can di away and out of your grab range.
Someone posted earlier that the best option for his fast landing up b is to shield. while this is always an option (followed by a free smash) it's better to keep him off of the stage with counter. You can even catch him in the air. This is very oldschool but nobody seems to do it anymore.
If they still have jumps after you grab them from up b, you can always just grab the edge with invincibility. you have enough time from when they can jump, to fast grab the ledge. if you want to be risky/tricky, you can dolphin slash regrab to refresh your invinicibilty, thus making them waste their jumps and you getting a free follow up.
edit: if he is able to DI in to grab the edge after the pummel break, you can always forward throw and he wont regain jumps. He'll be sent out far enough to where you can follow him up with any aerial and possibly a smash if you react fast enough or get a read.
~mikeHAZE
=================================================
4. Moves
Down Throw
Don't try to DS out of the CG... If they're doing it right, it doesn't work. If you're mashing, well, they can hear that and shield. Just hold away from DDD. If they mess up, at all, you'll just walk out unharmed.
~C.J.
If you ARE getting CG'd, don't try to DS out. If he's doing it right, there's nothing you can do. Just walk away, mash jump, and react to whatever he does. My friend likes to use Dash Attack after a CG just because EVERYONE instinctively spot-dodges and gets ***** by it. Don't die at 100% to the Hug.
~Raziek
=================================================
5. Stages
Any not FD neutral is fine, probably ban FD unless you have a pocket Falco
Brinstar and RC are pretty bad for us but just run away at least there are platforms and pocket MK might work if your MK is anywhere near decent.
I say ban FD because you can't really run away on that stage like you can on Bristar or RC
~Punishment Divine
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11150353&postcount=27
~Raziek
=================================================
6. Videos
billybegood(D3) vs. Raziek(Marth): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3PgqzTBaE