2010 Marth MU Discussion vs. D3

[ChKn]

Previous D3 discussions:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186738

King Dedede​

Index:
1. Overview/Normal Play:
- Summaries
- D3's Style(s) of Play
- Marth's Style(s) of Play
- Positioning/Zoning
2. Killing Methods
- Killing
-Getting Killed
3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game
- Recovering as Marth
- Against D3's recovery
4. Moves
-Down Throw(D3)
5. Stages
6. Videos

1. Overview/Normal Play

Summaries

It's a match up about caution.
Dedede will struggle to approach you (he really only has dash to shield / spot dodge); otherwise he may try rar bair or try to beat out a counter approach with ftilt.

~Shaya

ehh i think this matchup is really straight forward. you both space until dedede gets a grab or marth breaks dedede's zone

~mikeHAZE

just avoid ddd's grab f-tilt b-air and juggle him in the air/recovery

rest is experience-based

~Junk

Overall, this match-up is a really lame one to fight, since you either going to win by a bit, or get horribly ***** if he keeps landing grabs.

It's probably 45:55 Dedede's favor, but I wouldn't kill you for saying even or 40:60 Dedede. It's a lame match-up, but not impossible once you learn it.

~Raziek

D3's Style(s) of Play



Marth's Style(s) of Play

Anyway not the most experienced person in the world here, but for the most part you if you can avoid getting grabbed then you win the match.

~Shaya

Dealing with Dedede's grab range is mad gay, as already noted. Rising Nair, Retreating Fair, and Cross-up Nair or Fair are my favorite ways to deal with the ground game. If he tries to space you with waddle toss, PS and get in there quick, because those things have a lot of lag. F-Throw x3 to F-Smash is guaranteed, but don't waste time and % fishing for it. If you CAN get it, it's an easy way to get Dedede off-stage and into the part of the match-up where we win.

If your opponent likes to play the neutral situation with aerials (bair), DON'T CHALLENGE IT WITH FAIR. You will get hit almost every time, and trading hits is NOT something we want to do with Dedede. Use Nair or optimally bair, our bair out-disjoints his and has sexy range.

Watch out for ground inhale shenanigans. If you're ballsy, DS his face if he tries it. Otherwise, just stay out of it. Worth noting: You can counter the windbox, but it often counters in the wrong direction, so you get inhaled anyway.

DO NOT DASH IN. If you dash in, you are PROBABLY going to get hit by a Gordo. Walk in and react to F-tilt/projectiles, if you are attempting the ground route.

Jet Hammer is really awful, don't ever get hit by this. If you do, pray it was because he broke your shield somehow.

~Raziek

Positioning/Zoning

Anyway talking about some specific zoning.
Dedede only has grab from infront of him. Like Snake, full hop rising retreating aerials **** all over what he can do; we can react to everything else.
Our back air beats his. He cannot compete with our back air

~Shaya

marths back air is only 1 frame slower too iirc......

~Blacknight99923

If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.

On the matter of dancing blade, it's really unsafe in this match-up, since doing anything unsafe on Dedede's shield means you get grabbed and it's game over. Don't let that happen. It's still GREAT, just risky as all hell.

USE NAIR A LOT. SERIOUSLY.

D-tilt is also pretty sexy, just don't use it enough to get close enough for a shield-grab, and watch out for his godly spot-dodge.

~Raziek

You can also spike d3 at the top of his upB.

~mikeHAZE

IF d3 lands on the battlefield platform with his up-b, its a free tipper fsmash... I dont see anybody else doing it

MintyFlesh


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2. Killing Moves

To Kill D3

Getting Killed By D3:

When we're in kill percent (Which is about 100%), you have to play like you're going to die at any second. Because, you will. U-tilt has preposterous range and will kill you at like 110%. D-Smash is another major one to watch out for, as are off-stage Fair and Bair. B-Throw by the ledge will also kill you around 120%

~Raziek

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3. Recovery

For Marth:

On the flip side, if HE gets a grab on the ground, prepare your cornhole. If he's close to a ledge, he's either gonna CG you ACROSS the stage, then F-Throw, or just F-Throw where he is. He also might B-Throw if he's not sure he can get the CG 100%.

If you ARE getting CG'd, don't try to DS out. If he's doing it right, there's nothing you can do. Just walk away, mash jump, and react to whatever he does. My friend likes to use Dash Attack after a CG just because EVERYONE instinctively spot-dodges and gets ***** by it. Don't die at 100% to the Hug.

Once you're offstage, you're in big trouble. If you can come in really high, DO THAT. Dedede shouldn't EVER be juggling you, just SDI out of his Uair. Coming in at jump height is probably your worst option, because he'll just fair or bair you back out. Counter it if you can, but don't get baited.

Second Safest option is recovering low (Since recovering high is optimal), as it is in a lot of match-ups. Be patient, use your DB stall, and land on the stage if you HAVE to.

If you make it to the ledge, getting back onstage is still a job. Honestly, if he's up in your face, just poke him through the ledge with fair until he moves away. There's not really a ton he can do about it, as far as I know.

All your other options are basically going to get you *****.

If you ledge-roll, you are going to get re-grabbed, eat a backwards u-tilt (This kills at like 115%) or D-Smash (Kills a bit earlier), or get d-tilted back out.

Below 100%, the quick get up IS an option if you are fast. Don't rely on it though, and this will get beat out by d-tilt EVERY time.

Ledge-jump is ok, but not great. If the Dedede is paying attention, he'll jump up and fair or bair.

Ledge-drop nair onto the stage is an AWFUL idea, and you should get punished for this every time.

If you actually manage to get back onstage, congratulations! You're now back at neutral situation and are one grab away from getting ***** again.

~Raziek

For D3:

Once Dedede is off-stage, we have a couple options. If he tries to come in high, you don't really have a whole lot you can do. If he uses Up-B to do it, shield, then hit him back out. If he just uses his ridiculous fall speed, he probably successfully reset the situation.

If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.

Chase him out with ledgejump bair, it has ridiculous range and is actually a solid tipper kill around 100% or so, if you land it. If you're chasing him high, beware of Inhale. This should only ever be a move you fall for once.

Beware of his fair, the hitbox is HUGE. Counter it on reaction for an easy 17 or 18%.

Basically, this match-up revolves around just keeping him offstage until he's dead. Abuse his hilariously linear recovery. It make take you until 180% to do it, but eventually he's gonna die.

~Raziek

When DDD uses upb from below the stage, marth can grab him on his way up. Don't start pummeling immediately after the grab, otherwise it auto-releases and DDD instantly grabs the ledge. If after the release and DDD had a few jumps left, try and dtilt him as he goes for the ledge. Otherwise, when he up's again, regrab and start the whole process over.

At high percents (usmash killing range), follow their upb on stage and go for it.

~Nike20

[In response to Nike20] Actually, this isn't only true to marth.

You're correct in the immediate pummel, only i should tell you it's only if you BUFFER pummel they auto break. I'm not sure if grabbing the edge is DI dependant or not, but it is a very good option. The autobreak is actually really good for opponents trying to mash out really quickly, as they will occasionally buffer an aerial and die. the up b grab is an infinite if you walk backwards after every release. if you're at the edge d3 can di away and out of your grab range.

Someone posted earlier that the best option for his fast landing up b is to shield. while this is always an option (followed by a free smash) it's better to keep him off of the stage with counter. You can even catch him in the air. This is very oldschool but nobody seems to do it anymore.

If they still have jumps after you grab them from up b, you can always just grab the edge with invincibility. you have enough time from when they can jump, to fast grab the ledge. if you want to be risky/tricky, you can dolphin slash regrab to refresh your invinicibilty, thus making them waste their jumps and you getting a free follow up.


edit: if he is able to DI in to grab the edge after the pummel break, you can always forward throw and he wont regain jumps. He'll be sent out far enough to where you can follow him up with any aerial and possibly a smash if you react fast enough or get a read.

~mikeHAZE

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4. Moves

Down Throw

Don't try to DS out of the CG... If they're doing it right, it doesn't work. If you're mashing, well, they can hear that and shield. Just hold away from DDD. If they mess up, at all, you'll just walk out unharmed.

~C.J.

If you ARE getting CG'd, don't try to DS out. If he's doing it right, there's nothing you can do. Just walk away, mash jump, and react to whatever he does. My friend likes to use Dash Attack after a CG just because EVERYONE instinctively spot-dodges and gets ***** by it. Don't die at 100% to the Hug.

~Raziek

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5. Stages

Any not FD neutral is fine, probably ban FD unless you have a pocket Falco

Brinstar and RC are pretty bad for us but just run away at least there are platforms and pocket MK might work if your MK is anywhere near decent.

I say ban FD because you can't really run away on that stage like you can on Bristar or RC

~Punishment Divine

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=11150353&postcount=27

~Raziek

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6. Videos

billybegood(D3) vs. Raziek(Marth): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3PgqzTBaE

 

[Player-3]

don't play this matchup






<_<

 

[clowsui]

the "boa"

fullhop rising nair vs ddd's shield

so good esp if you retreat...mad gay for ddd to try and punish

 

[Honor]

this is a tough machup 4 me but i found that it is very winable

the main thing that sticks out at me about this machup is that D3 is punishable when he recovers
if u can perdict where he's gonna land u can really lay into him and often force him over the edge again

 

[Shaya]

Approved
and 500 supports.

So what is dedede?
well for a while I thought that dedede was a tougher match up than meta knight.
This was during a magical time in which I was playing the game a lot, and beating every meta knight in the country. Whilst on the other hand training buddies using dedede would cause me severe brain damage.

It's a match up about caution.
Dedede will struggle to approach you (he really only has dash to shield / spot dodge); otherwise he may try rar bair or try to beat out a counter approach with ftilt.

You play the match up in two phases,
when you're at kill percent of utilt and when you're not.
The latter is full of magical things such as crossing over, abusing footstools (oh so big dedede), maybe even ROLLING. The former can be painful.

Anyway not the most experienced person in the world here, but for the most part you if you can avoid getting grabbed then you win the match.
If we only had to worry about back throw.. this match up would be... advantaged for us.

Anyway talking about some specific zoning.
Dedede only has grab from infront of him. Like Snake, full hop rising retreating aerials **** all over what he can do; we can react to everything else.
Our back air beats his. He cannot compete with our back air.

 

[Blacknight99923]

marths back air is only 1 frame slower too iirc......

I'll have to remember that......

WE MUST FOREVER USE BAIR AGAINST D3

 

[C.J.]

Co18 says watching NEO play the MU makes him think it's Marth's favor, lol
We should get him to respond... yeah right

Also Shaya, who can compete with out back air? I mean seriously. That angle/range. It is unstoppable!

 

[iamjason8]

Weee a non-Toon Link MU I've actually played! Here are MY thoughts view.

1. Overview/Normal Play:
Summary
I still think this is disadvantageous or at least "difficult" MU for Marth. D3 has CG and outranges. He can also camp. Thankfully Marth still has some tools that make the match winnable.

D3's Style(s) of Play
D3's should never have to approach. Simple as that. Yes he doesn't have that great approach options but why should that matter when he shouldn't have to? He has projectiles and when the Marth gets close, you can either space with F-Tilt or Shield-Grab. He also has a few hard hitting, yet reliable killers, namely B-Air, B-Throw, F-Throw, U-Tilt and to a much lesser extent, D-Tilt.

Marth's Style(s) of Play
Marth should really be careful about grabbing since a grab can really pay off but is hard to pull off. The Marth should spam F-Air like a beech too. Do as many F-Airs as long as you're within range since he can shield punish, has no room to camp, and F-Air outranges F-Tilt (well you're in the air) and U-Tilt. Dancing Blade is also works incredibly well here in building up damage.

Positioning/Zoning
D3's only really good spacing tool imo is F-Tilt. Its an amazing move that shield pokes and has incredible range. Too bad it only works on the ground. That's really all D3 has to space. Waddle Dee Toss is okay but has lots of start up lag so if you're using it you might as well be camping instead. The rest of his spacing moves have a lot of start up lag too like F-Air.

But B-Air and D-Air are pretty good too I guess.

Marth, in spite of having less range, has much more options. F-Airs, N-Airs and to a lesser extent B-Airs work quite nicely. Marths will want to play mid distance in the air. I like to call this the "Short Hop Zone" because he's in the air within range - where he likes to be.

2. Killing Methods
Marth's Killing
A lot of the time, in my opinion again, Marth will find getting more damage on the D3 player but will end up dying first. Yea, D3 has gay survivability. Marth also loses a lot of his killing options since he virtually can't vertical KO.

What to use:
~Tipper F-Air
~Tipper N-Air
~Tipper B-Air
~Tipper D-Air (to meteor of course)
~F-Smash
~D-Smash (which launches them horizontally)
~[Surprise] Dolphin Slash (if you want to and he's high enough % or close to the ledge/blast line)

Anything that horizontally KO's. Preferably not diagonal.

What not to use:
~U-Smash
~U-Tilt
~U-Air
~D-Tilt (no gimping sorry)
~D-Smash (that sends them up)
~Tipper Dancing Blade

Anything that vertical KO's because D3 has amazing resistance to vertical KO's.

D3's Killing
D3 has some surprise killers and some steady killers. I really don't think I have to explain much.

Surprise:
~Offstage F-Air
~D-Tilt
~D-Smash
~F-Smash
~Gordo
~Dash attack (especially after D-Throw)

Steady:
~U-Tilt
~[Offstage] B-Air
~F-Throw & B-Throw (when near the ledge)
~Inhale

So there. The steady ones are obviously the ones you'll be seeing most and the surprise ones are just things you'd wanna watch out for when you reach 100 or so %.

3. Recovery/Edge or Ledge Game
Recovering as Marth
Like fighting MK, recover low. Aim for the ledge. If you see him going off stage to try gimp your or something then Up-B. You'll probably either end up grabbing the ledge and stage spiking him or you being on the stage and D3 away. Never recover high. You will always end up getting punished since D3 is amazing at that. Or grabbing. Either one.

Against D3's recovery
I not exactly sure what this means. Just do as much damage as you can whilst he doesn't have super armor and try to space for a tipper D-Air, even though its not a guaranteed kill.

4. Moves
For Marth:
-F-Smash
F-Smash has always been my favorite move. Tipper F-Smash is amazing against D3 just like in any other MU. Imo Marth's best killer.

-Any aerials except D-Air performed in the Short Hop Zone
He can't grab you out of them (unless you're getting punished by B-Airs ending lag) and he really can't do anything. His F-Tilt probably won't hit since Marth after can jump twice :O and you can outrange his U-Tilt.

-Dancing Blade
When you're inside him (well really close to him) is the best time to use Dancing Blade. I find it just incredibly useful and in my experience hardly gets shield punished. Just do it really fast. Like how the Melee pace is: 1--2--3-4, do it 1-2-3-4, just because you can in Brawl haha.

-Dolphin Slash
Just use this to escape the CG. I don't see that much use for it outside of that. Sure its a surprise killer but its more situational than versatile. And its also incredible easy for D3 to punish. Oh, yea and for recovering lol.

Oh, and I can't believe I forgot N-Air. Its crazy good in this MU for Marth!

For D3:
-B-Air
Amazing for edge-guarding and stage spiking as well as killing. Its an extremely fast and powerful sex kick. You can also Wall of Pain with it. Its just a really good self-explanatory move basically.

-D-Throw
Chain Grab Marth because you can! Its also an easy way to build up damage by following it up with a Dash Attack or F-Tilt. Just be wary of Dolphin Slash.

-Inhale
Sacrificial KO-ing is fun and easy. I don't think I have to explain why you'd only do this when you're above in stock or behind in percentage and same stock. And in my experience, D3 ALWAYS wins sudden death. Just toss a waddle dee hahaha or F-Tilt or shield punish throw.

-Waddle Dee Toss
This is how D3's should start off all games. Just camp and wait for the Marth to approach and then poke or grab. Waddle Doos are really annoying for Marth and can give you a free F-Smash/stock. Gordos are even better, free 20%!

-U-Tilt
D3's best killer next to B-Air. Let's all remember that Marth has especially poor vertical survivability and can't do that much when someone is below him.

5. Videos
Just one incredibly old and outdated video of me playing with my friend. My D3's gotten better! :D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMLkaMQRIsM

Verdict
As both a Marth and D3 player, I find this MU an incredibly fun one to play for both Marth and D3, although I'm not sure if my friend feels the same way. I also find it an extremely even MU but D3 does have a tiny advantage. I would probably dub this 45:55 in Dedede's favor but I also would accept "50:50 - Marth's gayest MU". Just like how Marth is 50 with ROB but its an extremely difficult MU or how Tink and Sheik are basically even but Tink has a really hard time during the match.

Approximately even, very challenging for Marth. 45:55

 

[mikeHAZE]

i lose every time

 

[Shaya]

i lose every time

tell me how!

 

[Laurel]

from experience...i'm kinda bad at this mu but it's something i kind of have experience with so i'll contribute from my standpoint

all right, punishing marth is pretty easy from d3's standpoint

because i have the habit of up-bing out of the chaingrab i get punished for it a lot, especially if it's at a low percentage, so bait it out

also if marth holds onto the ledge too long, stage spike him

um...baiting an inexperienced marth's counter too, i used to try and counter his down-b

marth can poke through his up-b with usmash

that's about it...the better marths can clean up my garbage advice

 

[_Kadaj_]

I lose as well lol

I'll maybe post something a little later

 

[mikeHAZE]

ehh i think this matchup is really straight forward. you both space until dedede gets a grab or marth breaks dedede's zone

 

[Reizilla]

Subscribing to this for reference. No decent DDDs in my area. Will post something if I ever play one.

 

[C.J.]

Don't try to DS out of the CG... If they're doing it right, it doesn't work. If you're mashing, well, they can hear that and shield. Just hold away from DDD. If they mess up, at all, you'll just walk out unharmed.

 

[Raziek]

OK, I have to play this Match-up a lot, so I'll chip in here.

On the ground

Dealing with Dedede's grab range is mad gay, as already noted. Rising Nair, Retreating Fair, and Cross-up Nair or Fair are my favorite ways to deal with the ground game. If he tries to space you with waddle toss, PS and get in there quick, because those things have a lot of lag. F-Throw x3 to F-Smash is guaranteed, but don't waste time and % fishing for it. If you CAN get it, it's an easy way to get Dedede off-stage and into the part of the match-up where we win.

Dedede Off-stage

Once Dedede is off-stage, we have a couple options. If he tries to come in high, you don't really have a whole lot you can do. If he uses Up-B to do it, shield, then hit him back out. If he just uses his ridiculous fall speed, he probably successfully reset the situation.

If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.

Chase him out with ledgejump bair, it has ridiculous range and is actually a solid tipper kill around 100% or so, if you land it. If you're chasing him high, beware of Inhale. This should only ever be a move you fall for once.

Beware of his fair, the hitbox is HUGE. Counter it on reaction for an easy 17 or 18%.

Basically, this match-up revolves around just keeping him offstage until he's dead. Abuse his hilariously linear recovery. It make take you until 180% to do it, but eventually he's gonna die.

When Things Go Wrong

On the flip side, if HE gets a grab on the ground, prepare your cornhole. If he's close to a ledge, he's either gonna CG you ACROSS the stage, then F-Throw, or just F-Throw where he is. He also might B-Throw if he's not sure he can get the CG 100%.

If you ARE getting CG'd, don't try to DS out. If he's doing it right, there's nothing you can do. Just walk away, mash jump, and react to whatever he does. My friend likes to use Dash Attack after a CG just because EVERYONE instinctively spot-dodges and gets ***** by it. Don't die at 100% to the Hug.

Once you're offstage, you're in big trouble. If you can come in really high, DO THAT. Dedede shouldn't EVER be juggling you, just SDI out of his Uair. Coming in at jump height is probably your worst option, because he'll just fair or bair you back out. Counter it if you can, but don't get baited.

Second Safest option is recovering low (Since recovering high is optimal), as it is in a lot of match-ups. Be patient, use your DB stall, and land on the stage if you HAVE to.

If you make it to the ledge, getting back onstage is still a job. Honestly, if he's up in your face, just poke him through the ledge with fair until he moves away. There's not really a ton he can do about it, as far as I know.

All your other options are basically going to get you *****.

If you ledge-roll, you are going to get re-grabbed, eat a backwards u-tilt (This kills at like 115%) or D-Smash (Kills a bit earlier), or get d-tilted back out.

Below 100%, the quick get up IS an option if you are fast. Don't rely on it though, and this will get beat out by d-tilt EVERY time.

Ledge-jump is ok, but not great. If the Dedede is paying attention, he'll jump up and fair or bair.

Ledge-drop nair onto the stage is an AWFUL idea, and you should get punished for this every time.

If you actually manage to get back onstage, congratulations! You're now back at neutral situation and are one grab away from getting ***** again.

Other Stuff to mention:

If your opponent likes to play the neutral situation with aerials (bair), DON'T CHALLENGE IT WITH FAIR. You will get hit almost every time, and trading hits is NOT something we want to do with Dedede. Use Nair or optimally bair, our bair out-disjoints his and has sexy range.

Watch out for ground inhale shenanigans. If you're ballsy, DS his face if he tries it. Otherwise, just stay out of it. Worth noting: You can counter the windbox, but it often counters in the wrong direction, so you get inhaled anyway.

DO NOT DASH IN. If you dash in, you are PROBABLY going to get hit by a Gordo. Walk in and react to F-tilt/projectiles, if you are attempting the ground route.

Jet Hammer is really awful, don't ever get hit by this. If you do, pray it was because he broke your shield somehow.

When we're in kill percent (Which is about 100%), you have to play like you're going to die at any second. Because, you will. U-tilt has preposterous range and will kill you at like 110%. D-Smash is another major one to watch out for, as are off-stage Fair and Bair. B-Throw by the ledge will also kill you around 120%

If you've hit his shield a few times in the neutral situation, either start using Dancing Blade, or go for the shieldbreak read. Both are risky, since they'll get you ***** if the Dedede is smart, but you can put a lot of pressure on the opponent and turn the tide of the match if you do. Shield-poking Dedede with DB4 Green isn't that hard, but if he has good reaction time, he's gonna grab you after DB3, unless you do Green and space it perfectly. (Which means DB/DB2 probably missed, if you're at max range for DB3 Green)

On the matter of dancing blade, it's really unsafe in this match-up, since doing anything unsafe on Dedede's shield means you get grabbed and it's game over. Don't let that happen. It's still GREAT, just risky as all hell.

USE NAIR A LOT. SERIOUSLY.

D-tilt is also pretty sexy, just don't use it enough to get close enough for a shield-grab, and watch out for his godly spot-dodge.

Overall, this match-up is a really lame one to fight, since you either going to win by a bit, or get horribly ***** if he keeps landing grabs.

It's probably 45:55 Dedede's favor, but I wouldn't kill you for saying even or 40:60 Dedede. It's a lame match-up, but not impossible once you learn it.

45/55

Attached for reference, a semi-recent vid of me vs. one of our better Dedede's on PS2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n3PgqzTBaE

 

[hippiedude92]

pretty sure junk knows this matchup

pretty straight forward mu, nothing fancy or stuff

just space around outside his grab range, and bait that grab, i love jab/dtilt spaced right

if he recovers high with upb, just look for the landing point, and punish it and don't forget you have a shield breaker! really good mix up to eat their shield (it takes i think about a minute? for a shield to fully recharge)

 

[clowsui]

NEO seems to do really well at this MU, he 2 stocked Atomsk the last time they played iirc.

namesearch bait, duh

NEO

 

[Blacknight99923]

Ughh I play with a D3 all the time but our matches are generally me as Falco or Snake against his D3.......

I'll start using marth more against his D3 and give my input later.

but this match up should be straight forward from what I remember.

Maybe I'm thinking of kirby but iirc marth can DI in and up B every time D3 inhales him..... (I dunno if'd I do this offstage though)

 

[Honor]

I've been able to do alright in this mu (I've had 2 since i only play marth) and I would say its 60/40 D3

 

[Laurel]

If he tries to come in low, D-tilt his head. If you're spacing it right, the hitbox is actually laughable large and you can just poke away his jumps one at a time. If he comes up from below the ledge, run off and bair or DS for the attempt at the stage spike.

On the matter of dancing blade, it's really unsafe in this match-up, since doing anything unsafe on Dedede's shield means you get grabbed and it's game over. Don't let that happen. It's still GREAT, just risky as all hell.

USE NAIR A LOT. SERIOUSLY.

D-tilt is also pretty sexy, just don't use it enough to get close enough for a shield-grab, and watch out for his godly spot-dodge.

Overall, this match-up is a really lame one to fight, since you either going to win by a bit, or get horribly ***** if he keeps landing grabs.

great notes, this helped

i agree on the 40:60 D3

 

[∫unk]

just avoid ddd's grab f-tilt b-air and juggle him in the air/recovery

rest is experience-based

 

[Punishment Divine]

one thing i like doing in this matchup is trying to dair DDD offstage. he's one of the few chars i actually try this because it's either going to:

A) spike him (probably not)

B) send him at the awkward horizontal angle we want him to be

imo a tipped fair/bair sends him too high so unless you know it's going to kill him, don't go for it.

 

[Megavitamins]

NEO seems to do really well at this MU, he 2 stocked Atomsk the last time they played iirc.

namesearch bait, duh

NEO

1. atomsk said he played bad / neo AGREED that atomsk was playing the MU wrong
2. You can't search words under four letters.

 

[ChKn]

What Neutrals and CPs should we take D3 on and what should we ban?

 

[Punishment Divine]

What Neutrals and CPs should we take D3 on and what should we ban?

Any not FD neutral is fine, probably ban FD unless you have a pocket Falco

Brinstar and RC are pretty bad for us but just run away at least there are platforms and pocket MK might work if your MK is anywhere near decent.

I say ban FD because you can't really run away on that stage like you can on Bristar or RC

 

[Raziek]

Running quickly though the list of stages we use in my region.

Starter
Battlefield - This is good.
Smashville - Also ok.
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl) - On one hand, it's small, so less room to CG. On the other hand, no room to space. Avoid, IMO.
Lylat Cruise - This is great.
Pokemon Stadium 1 - Avoid. Fire and Rock have wall infinites, Water has windmill shenanigans.
Final Destination - Avoid like the plague.
Halberd - Meh.
Castle Siege - Avoid. First transition is ok, but the other two are bad for us.
Pokemon Stadium 2 - This one can be good if they are unfamiliar with it.

Counterpick

Delfino Plaza - Ban this and FD, if you have two bans. So many walls, and the platforms aren't low enough for us to abuse. Between Walk-offs and Water and walls, this is a nightmare.


Luigi's Mansion - Not great. He'll survive forever, and you're gonna get CG'd all over. No room to rising nair.


Pirate Ship - Pretty solid. **** him in the water, uneven terrain ***** with his CGs, plenty of room to space, Dedede is a big target for the cannons.


Brinstar - I love this one against Dedede.There's no room for him to do any CG's properly, and if you play it right, he should never have room for ground game. The nature of the terrain allows for early, safer kills with DS, which helps mitigate his weight. He's also less maneuverable than us.


Frigate Orpheon - This is a risky pick. It just amplifies the win condition in this match-up: Keeping your opponent off-stage. Problem is, the punishment is far worse for us than him.


Pictochat - FD with Hazards. Avoid.


Rainbow Cruise - Not awful, but not good. Easy to get gimped here, walls on the boat.


Jungle Japes - Pretty good. Rising nair is great here, and it weakens Dedede's vertical killers (U-tilt, D-Smash)


Norfair - Good if they don't know how to play it, and you can maintain control of the center. A Dedede who knows this stage will **** you pretty hard if he gets control of the center.


Green Greens - AVOID. Walls, Close blastzones, bad times all round.


Distant Planet - Not actually a bad pick. The slope/water ***** with his recovery, and he doesn't really like the bouncy platforms or the pellets. Just beware of possibly gettign CG'd up the slope.


Port Town Aero Dive - AVOID. You can't land without getting *****.

 

[Player-3]

if you get lucky enough to take a ddd to bstar.... he's going mk

 

[Raziek]

if you get lucky enough to take a ddd to bstar.... he's going mk

This goes without saying. I assume that anyone who risks Brinstar knows the risk of a pocket MK.

 

[Steel_Samurai]

Raziek that was the first time I've seen your marth
I have to say I am Impressed, I didn't think you were that good (no offense)
Great vid for the match up imo

 

[Raziek]

Haha, thanks. I'm kind of a sleeper Marth, because nobody knows about me due to being in ****ing Canada. I'll cross-post it to the vid thread later.

 

[o-Serin-o]

I'll elaborate on this matchup tomorrow.

EDIT: Friday.

EDIT2: Saturday.

EDIT3: On a weekend.

 

[mikeHAZE]

i'll just take notes


edit:@raziek, you should submit your match to the electric scibble. i'll give you a hard critique.

 

[Raziek]

I know more or less what I did wrong, since I've re-watched it a few times. What I WILL submit for critique, however, is a more recent set, once I get it uploaded.

 

[Nike.]

When DDD uses upb from below the stage, marth can grab him on his way up. Don't start pummeling immediately after the grab, otherwise it auto-releases and DDD instantly grabs the ledge. If after the release and DDD had a few jumps left, try and dtilt him as he goes for the ledge. Otherwise, when he up's again, regrab and start the whole process over.

At high percents (usmash killing range), follow their upb on stage and go for it.

Pretty sure everyone here knew this already though. Is there a way DDD can avoid this, and the one I'm playing just doesn't know how? Because if not , you could actually repeat this til the 200%'s and uthrow kill him.

 

[Enzo]

I'm an idiot.

 

[Itakio]

I think it should be noted that it's possible to do a fair (or a dair) out of DDD's inhale if you double jump first. I'm pretty sure you can't buffer it, and I'm not sure if mashing or timing it is better, I'm having trouble getting it when I'm mashing, but I'm also controlling both characters when I practice it, so meh.
EDIT: Also, I guess you can only double jump out of being a star when you're holding up/down, but not sideways, so hold diagonally down/toward DDD or up/toward, and mash A/jump (or just press jump/cstick forward if you're trying to time it I guess).

When DDD uses upb from below the stage, marth can grab him on his way up. Don't start pummeling immediately after the grab, otherwise it auto-releases and DDD instantly grabs the ledge. If after the release and DDD had a few jumps left, try and dtilt him as he goes for the ledge. Otherwise, when he up's again, regrab and start the whole process over.

At high percents (usmash killing range), follow their upb on stage and go for it.

Pretty sure everyone here knew this already though. Is there a way DDD can avoid this, and the one I'm playing just doesn't know how? Because if not , you could actually repeat this til the 200%'s and uthrow kill him.

Well, it seems like he would be able to DI away from him during the release and then up B just barely DIing into the stage so you don't going back into Marth's grab range.

 

[mikeHAZE]

When DDD uses upb from below the stage, marth can grab him on his way up. Don't start pummeling immediately after the grab, otherwise it auto-releases and DDD instantly grabs the ledge. If after the release and DDD had a few jumps left, try and dtilt him as he goes for the ledge. Otherwise, when he up's again, regrab and start the whole process over.

At high percents (usmash killing range), follow their upb on stage and go for it.

Pretty sure everyone here knew this already though. Is there a way DDD can avoid this, and the one I'm playing just doesn't know how? Because if not , you could actually repeat this til the 200%'s and uthrow kill him.

Actually, this isn't only true to marth.

You're correct in the immediate pummel, only i should tell you it's only if you BUFFER pummel they auto break. I'm not sure if grabbing the edge is DI dependant or not, but it is a very good option. The autobreak is actually really good for opponents trying to mash out really quickly, as they will occasionally buffer an aerial and die. the up b grab is an infinite if you walk backwards after every release. if you're at the edge d3 can di away and out of your grab range.

You can also spike d3 at the top of his upB.

Someone posted earlier that the best option for his fast landing up b is to shield. while this is always an option (followed by a free smash) it's better to keep him off of the stage with counter. You can even catch him in the air. This is very oldschool but nobody seems to do it anymore.

If they still have jumps after you grab them from up b, you can always just grab the edge with invincibility. you have enough time from when they can jump, to fast grab the ledge. if you want to be risky/tricky, you can dolphin slash regrab to refresh your invinicibilty, thus making them waste their jumps and you getting a free follow up.


edit: if he is able to DI in to grab the edge after the pummel break, you can always forward throw and he wont regain jumps. He'll be sent out far enough to where you can follow him up with any aerial and possibly a smash if you react fast enough or get a read.

just fthrow to grab edge

 

[Metal Reeper]

Fair at him alot, Nair, stay out of Ftilt range, play closer to the edges at lower % to not get CGed

 

[mikeHAZE]

Fair at him alot, Nair, stay out of Ftilt range, play closer to the edges at lower % to not get CGed

so if i'm fairing at him how do i stay out of ftilt range? do i not have to be near an opponent to hit them?