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ZSS Video Critique Thread!

NickRiddle

#negativeNick
Joined
Jan 3, 2006
Messages
9,913
Location
Florida
http://youtu.be/B64ymTqKEp4
vs wario

any advice would be nice
Wario doesn't generally have a counter easy enough to write with time-stamps, so I won't bother in this case.
You're not moving enough. Wario thrives on his opponents having a concrete idea of what they want to do. His mobility DESTROYS players who don't constantly move.
You flip-kick like...80%-90% of the time. Again, that's commitment that Wario LOVES.
You also d-smash too much in the MU... Yes, NickRiddle just said you d-smash too much... Actually, it might not be too much, you're using it like you should against other characters. Wario's aerial mobility makes him one of the better characters vs. normal d-smashes. You should only use it when you can't really get punished, or if a tire is near. D-smash > footstool > tire throw > d-smash is a legit infinite lock. You're on SV, so you can do it when the platform isn't there.
If Wario d-throws you off-stage, quickly bair if you predict any follow-up attempt. (It should be fast enough, IIRC.)
Too grounded as well btw. Bair/uair/nair beat Wario's aerials pretty solidly, so predict.
Two last things. First, you can grab Wario's f-smash on shield even if you're turned away. Second, if you GR a Wario with... pretty much any platform above you, you get dash > u-smash/just up-b.
6:55 was cute as **** though.

10:50 - u-tilt/u-smash that instead of uair.
11:41 - Your priority should be to recover, not to hit him. Lower to the ledge works.
13:34 - You need to do that more. So good.
It was just a lot of Trela reading what you're going to do. That's just him being a smart player.
Also, you flip-kick too much. A lot. I do too, but still.

ChoZo :ssbbfalco: vs. quiksilver :ssbbzss:

quiksilver :ssbbzss: vs. Luigi_player :ssbbdiddy:

WF: quiksilver :ssbbzss: vs. cyve :ssbbdiddy:

LF: Luigi_player :ssbbdiddy: vs. quiksilver :ssbbzss:

GF: cyve :ssbbdiddy: vs. quiksilver :ssbbzss:
--
Nearly everything Diddy lmao (all Sets are from one tournament). If you ask me, I was in a good mood. And i am pretty satisfied with all Sets (except the crappy GF, it was 3AM in the morning).
I hope you have fun, and would love some critique, so i can get better.
quiK: You're better with items than LP is, so that was most of what I noticed in those sets. Didn't watch the cyve matches though. Too much Diddy, but you're good vs. Diddy. I should watch the matches a couple of times to steal some stuff.

vs. Falco, I only noticed you're scared to use armor. Glide-toss up > grab if they like to quickly shine. That's basically it, sorry.

I'll do a couple of yours this weekend, Xonar.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Bio, I think you need to get better at identifying which moves are unsafe on hit and, by extension, when Trela can dair you after being hit by a certain move. This will give you the opportunity to SDI his dair so you don't...like die and stuff.

I saw him dair you out of both dtilt and uair, Lucario wins that trade. But it doesn't have to be that way if you can SDI out of dair and possibly hit him with uair for it :awesome:

Don't get into the habit of using the full jab combo. I'm pretty sure Lucario can PS + shieldgrab the 3rd hit by holding shield (like most characters) but Trela wasn't doing it for some reason...perhaps I'm wrong?

You need to use fair properly as a dsmash followup. Your dsmash followups at kill percents are fine (you usually just get the kill with bair) but at low-mid percents I see you do things like dsmash x2 --> falling 1st hit fair. Do you just not know the timing for it?
Just jump into him and fair and you'll probably get both hits, it'll net you tons of damage.
Or, if you're choosing to not do that because Trela SDIs fair, then use dash attack-->utilt, it does 1% more than fair.
If he also SDIs the first hit of utilt to avoid the 2nd, then use dash attack --> dtilt and then followup like you normally would.
If he SDIs the DASH ATTACK to avoid utilt/dtilt then just dsmash x2 --> uair/nair, maybe upB. But I would be surprised; I almost never see anyone SDI out of fair, utilt or dash attack, so fair or dash attack --> utilt should work.

Oh..and I'm happy to see you using dsmash x3 --> uair. It's satisfying, isn't it? XD
 

BioDG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
609
Thanks, Nick!

Bio, I think you need to get better at identifying which moves are unsafe on hit and, by extension, when Trela can dair you after being hit by a certain move. This will give you the opportunity to SDI his dair so you don't...like die and stuff.
Yeah, I agree. This is an old problem of mine and I noticed this is still an issue recently so hopefully I can do something about this by next tourney.

Don't get into the habit of using the full jab combo. I'm pretty sure Lucario can PS + shieldgrab the 3rd hit by holding shield (like most characters) but Trela wasn't doing it for some reason...perhaps I'm wrong?
No, you're right. Thanks for this. While I already knew about the PS thing, it was just one of those things I didn't think I did that much.
You need to use fair properly as a dsmash followup. Your dsmash followups at kill percents are fine (you usually just get the kill with bair) but at low-mid percents I see you do things like dsmash x2 --> falling 1st hit fair. Do you just not know the timing for it?
I'm using fair1 on purpose since it usually forces bad positioning and another follow-up...rather than using the full fair and the combo ends. It probably wasn't a good idea against Lucario, though (it worked better against other players/characters). Come to think of it, I may need to rely on this less overall. Like you said, full fair does good damage and sometimes I overlook things like that.

Or, if you're choosing to not do that because Trela SDIs fair, then use dash attack-->utilt, it does 1% more than fair.
If he also SDIs the first hit of utilt to avoid the 2nd, then use dash attack --> dtilt and then followup like you normally would.
If he SDIs the DSMASH to avoid utilt/dtilt then just dsmash x2 --> uair/nair, maybe upB. But I would be surprised; I almost never see anyone SDI out of fair, utilt or dash attack, so fair or dash attack --> utilt should work.
Could you elaborate the reasoning behind that? I get what you mean for the most part...but if it's not too much trouble, I hope it could reinforce my own understanding.

Oh..and I'm happy to see you using dsmash x3 --> uair. It's satisfying, isn't it? XD
Yeah, haha. :]

Thanks for your help, V!
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
Could you elaborate the reasoning behind that? I get what you mean for the most part...but if it's not too much trouble, I hope it could reinforce my own understanding.
Oops I meant 'If he SDIs the dash attack to avoid the utilt/dtilt', I'll edit that in now.
Uh basically you should follow up dsmash x2 with both hits of fair/dash attack -->utilt cause those are the guaranteed followups that do the most damage.
If he SDIs fair and utilt so he only gets hit by the first hit, they don't deal good damage, so dash attack-->dtilt. I think it'll do the same (or more) damage as a fresh uair and it has better positioning.
However if he SDIs fair, utilt AND dash attack, all 3 of these options lose damage so uair/nair after dsmashx2 is probably your best bet.

In other words, the guaranteed damage you get decreases as he SDIs more. Fair/dash attack-->utilt if he doesn't SDI at all, dash attack --> dtilt if he SDIs the aforementioned 2, and just uair/nair if he SDIs the aforementioned three.
Fair/dash attack -->utilt do 17 and 18, respectively
Dash attack --> dtilt should do somewhere between 10-12 when fresh, pretty sure
Fresh uair does 10, nair ALWAYS does 10.

You might want to go for upB cause it does 14% but chances are if he's SDIing fairs, utilts and dash attacks he'll probably be able to SDI upB and not take the full 14% XD
 

BioDG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
609
Understood!

Thanks again and good luck at your tourney today.
 

shlike

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 1, 2009
Messages
896
Location
Brownsville, Tx (RGV)
is there any recent vids of nick/salem/whoever that i can watch to see if i've missed anything these passed 8 months? Also gj bio you've gotten stupid good! I need to get 'good' for whobo
 

Solharath

[ZTD] CEO
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
1,603
Location
North Muskegon, Michigan
Hey, remember when I dropped those videos of a friend with our friendlies? Well I just found some uploads of our most recent tournament. This a bit more his skill level. However, I should mention that he's taken your guidance to heart and he's a lot more difficult to deal with now.

Robjoe (ZSS) vs. Captain Rainbows (Tink)
http://youtu.be/r0b19-bRUvI

Robjoe (ZSS) vs. Amity (Snake)
http://youtu.be/xjqnNWiHBxc

Amity is the best Snake on our side of the state. There were a couple moments where I seriously thought Robjoe could have won by going offstage with a more aggressive edgeguarding game, but I'm no ZSS. That said, Snake is a lot less of a threat when trying to recover than when he's onstage, so I don't think my own advice has been off. Either way, I leave the main critique to you guys. Let him have it.
 

Dakpo

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Messages
1,912
Location
Denton, Texas
Im about to drop some matches, My controller broke during the tournament so my movement is pretty terrible, but its ok
 

Solharath

[ZTD] CEO
Joined
Aug 7, 2007
Messages
1,603
Location
North Muskegon, Michigan
Additional matches in which Robjoe would like critique for. If someone could give 'em a look before tomorrow afternoon, it would be extremely helpful before we're off to a regional tomorrow and internet usage will be spotty at best leading up to it.

Serious Friendlies this time. No music, just sound.

Super (Mario) vs. Robjoe (ZSS)
http://youtu.be/i9BAnXWtyww
http://youtu.be/k1iRn25l15s

Super (Diddy)* vs. Robjoe (ZSS)
http://youtu.be/Il5B1b42Im0
*This is the first time I played Diddy for an actual fight without trolling, but I did win so pointers for Robjoe would be nice!
 

BioDG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
609
Great set. You have the matchup down from what I could tell. Very patient, great banana game (nice use of back glide toss) and nice use of grab. The only things I'd say are to try not to backroll and make safer use out of your b-reversal. I think every time you went for one, you ended up in bad positioning or got punished :[. On an unrelated note: I was also a little surprised at how many empty banana pulls the diddy did.

Anyways, well done.
 

BioDG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
609
Some matches Vs Treeeee la
My controller was broken and there were some huge mistakes :/ but otherwise some really good matches
Game 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqZJpB8vqcw
Game 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H354Ym8GPY
Great matches for sure and it's great to see your zss again. Great mixups in your recoveries and landing game and use of nair/downB. I really like how well you seem to adapt to their edgeguarding.

Can't see much wrong other than the input errors. Seemed like you were getting a bit greedy when it came down to that second stock on G2 and started playing it close. And you may have overestimated grab a bit due to his roll (can't tell).

But yeah, sorry to hear about your controller. The input errors I saw from attempted wavebounces got you punished unfortunately. Great matches. I think you would have won G2.

Bah, Lucario stealing wins as usual. Eff aura. I still think it's funny how we all seem to use zss differently.
 

BioDG

Smash Ace
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
609
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8puH0LqPmD8&feature=relmfu

My ZSS vs Fatal's Snake.

Fatal is considerably better than me and I spent some time just trying to learn the match up as I've played ZSS for awhile but I've never used her in tourney as much as recently(normally main Diddy). So any tips/comments/scolding super welcome.
I'm gonna run a time-based critique on this one since I think it will help you more:

Game 1:

0:18 - don't use the kick offensively on a ledge return unless you know you have the read. When you don't have one, you are almost always better off using empty downB and landing into shield or spotdodge.

0:29 - zss has a really bad backroll. Please minimize this. foxtrot away > froll is actually better than a back roll.

0:46 - I assume you were trying to bair him but the input was late. At least I hope this was the case. If not, then you must've been in some serious autopiloting.

0:55 - You bait the walkoff item throws very well. Good stuff.

1:02 - It's critical that you get the timing/positioning down on the dsmash strings, which are among her most reliable and damaging setups.

1:25 & 1:31 - Either be more conscious of what your opponent is doing or be more conscious of the fact that zss' dsmash isn't fast on startup. In these cases you don't want to counter with a laggy move or else you'll always get hit first.

1:38 - When recovering, take it slower and consider your options. There is no need to rush.

1:47 - getup and downB out of a dthrow. It gives you frame 1 invincibility so he can't punish it during the escape.

1:50, 2:22, 2:56 - He guns for you during your jumps. when he has gotten within midrange and is probably going to approach you, long range zoning (jump-sideB) doesn't work anymore. What you should be using are faster+closer hitboxes to strike where he's going to be...like bair (3:01). This requires anticipating the approach, though.

2:26 - dtilt > usmash does not work if you don't hyphen usmash. SH Uair is better, though.

Game 2:

3:40 - LOL. I like your dedication

3:45 - 4:05 - Excellent use of items.

4:33, 4:50 - You're zoning with sideB too close again. Just figure out if he's planning to stay out of midrange before you resort to this (which he won't be doing since he knows your keep away game can be beaten at this point).

5:03 - Nice idea.

5:58 - It's just too risky to raise your stakes with the kick most of the time. If you know you are out of range from getting punished after downB, first ask yourself: is it better to empty-land and regroup or try to risk getting punished by Snake from releasing the kick? In that situation, hitting him wouldn't have done much and you are in need of getting your lead back.

6:20 - Approaching with DA, particularly from long-mid range, is high risk, high reward.

6:26 - If Snake recovers low against ZSS, he should either be killed or taking a serious punish every time. Your safe options here were walkoff fair, nair, and jump-offstage bair. Riskiest would be a downB spike (though this one would require strict spacing/timing).

7:00 - Snake will always look for that Utilt at high %. If I get stuck above him on a platform, I like to hold shield and see what he does. He could utilt, nair, bair, or usmash (lol). All of those options will usually leave him with some kind of cooldown, so if shielded, a drop > uair/bair or running away usually allows zss to beat those options. Not sure if I would recommend it, but I like doing it lol.

--

Overall, you played much better in game 2. Your ZSS is good, but I think your biggest problems are not reading your opponent and lacking knowledge in zss' options and the risk/rewards of certain moves. Failing to read him allowed Fatal to abuse your zoning game big time and lack of "vanilla" choices granted him punishes that otherwise wouldn't happen. However, you seem to have a good understanding of item use and the value of falling back on her spacing/zoning tools.
 

MdrnDayMercutio

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
2,354
Location
Western Mass
Oh yeah. That FSmash in game one. Just to explain, I mistimed the bair badly, and I didn't think the his FSmash hit box reached so high up. In retrospect, I wish I just went for a DownB over him to the Kick. Would of kept Bair a bit fresher, NOT RISKED GETTING HIT, and worked a lot better. Shrug.

Thanks for the critiques, good amount to think about. The biggest is how much I over rely on SideB. I don't know why I always think I can get Snakes to stay out with that move when I'm intiating it close enough to get stuffed. Rewatching that I see a lot of times I probably could have just delayed/charged DSmash for an extra moment since he was just spotdodging on reaction to start up. This is good stuff to think about before I hit up a Smashfest today. I'll try to keep it in mind, thanks.
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
I've been co-maining ZSS for quite some time now and joined the boards recently. I've been waiting for some of my matches to get recorded to show them here:

TIGREX vs. TMOE Skip to 6:30. That's where my Zamus plays.
TIGREX vs. Fang

My Zamus could use some tweaking. Can anyone help me out?
First vid

6:30 - Okay...he started off holding his reflector. You were in the perfect spacing to glide toss downwards --> dsmash him...and in case you didn't know, we have a dsmash lock on Fox til like 100 and then you can sideB him and it'll probably kill depending on where you are on the stage.

I see you using short hop --> down toss --> bair. I approve, but you can't do it all the time.
It also doesn't work as well on characters with reflectors, cause generally it's good for shield pressure.

6:39 - Landing bair is only safe on shield if you space it (and that entails not moving into your opponent's shield upon landing...fall straight down or away from them, and hit with the tip of the foot)

6:53 - You timed that dash attack --> utilt badly. If he had shielded he could have punished you hard.

6:56 - I don't know why you utilted after that dtilt...dtilt --> utilt doesn't really work unless you wait for them to hit your shield after the dtilt.
That was also the perfect position in which to dtilt --> dsmash. He landed right in front of you. Pay attention to where and how they land after dtilt, cause it's one of our best setups into dsmashes.

7:12 - That was a very unsafe landing fair on his shield.

7:35 - Badly timed bair after the dsmashes. Then you did jab --> usmash, badly DI'ed his dsmash and died....I don't understand why any of that happened. Were you mashing, expecting a grab? O.o

8:07 - Okay I noticed now that every time you use jab1, you follow up with dtilt (except for the one at 7:35 lol)..not a bad option, but the fact that you're using it every time makes you predictable (and it's not a true combo so they can just shield --> punish it).

8:12 - Here you got hit by an usmash, then a dsmash, then an fthrow, and after each one you uaired when Fox was nowhere nearby...you don't need to momentum cancel when you're not at kill percents.
Also I'm noticing that you approach with dash attack a lot.

8:25 - You could have had that dsmash if you charged it.

8:29 - You screwed up the spacing on that laser...shield-->utilt would have worked.
I see that you were close to the edge, then you read the illusion and tried to punish with a run away pivot laser...that's fine if you know the spacing on the illusion, but if you don't then generally a safer option is to run towards the centre of the stage, shield the illusion, and punish with utilt/dash attack/dash grab depending on the timing and how far away he lands from you.

8:40 - Again, you needlessly 'momentum cancelled' that dash attack and since you were locked into your uair, he landed a kill with uair. Only momentum cancel moves that look like they're going to kill you.

9:08 - You already stunned him (with the laser) and he hasn't hit the ground yet...if you dsmashed him out of his firefox (is that what it's called?) he wouldn't have gotten stunned again, he would have just taken damage.
It would have been better to edgehog, let him firefox on stage, then jump up there and punish with a bair/fair/sideB for the kill.

9:20 - Okay at this point you're taking a lot of damage from the lasers...perhaps I should mention that you can crawl under Fox's lasers.

10:04 - I'm PRETTY sure ZSS can't fthrow cg Fox (maybe 1 regrab, like on Falco) so that wasn't really safe...if you missed that 2nd grab you would have died for sure.

Okay, you died, now I'll watch again.
...
Both of you spotdodge quite a bit whenever you're in CQC and the other one is doing an attack. You should have charged some dsmashes
Whenever he laser camps, you take a bunch of damage because...idk why. Sometimes you just stand there, sometimes you spotdodge (that doesn't work)...you really should be crawling.
Overall I feel like you got hit too much simply because he decided to approach with an attack, and you weren't shielding, or you decided to approach him and he just threw out an attack when you got close. You missed out on dsmashes and uairs because you never really positioned yourself to juggle or trap his landings...you always put yourself at midrange and then he starts camping you.
Sometimes I feel like you were throwing out attacks just because you were behind...even though he wasn't anywhere near you. You're not very good at positioning yourself with ZSS.

I'll let someone else do the other vid.
 

Tigrex777

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
14
Location
Huntsville, Alabama
First vid

6:30 - Okay...he started off holding his reflector. You were in the perfect spacing to glide toss downwards --> dsmash him...and in case you didn't know, we have a dsmash lock on Fox til like 100 and then you can sideB him and it'll probably kill depending on where you are on the stage.

I see you using short hop --> down toss --> bair. I approve, but you can't do it all the time.
It also doesn't work as well on characters with reflectors, cause generally it's good for shield pressure.

6:39 - Landing bair is only safe on shield if you space it (and that entails not moving into your opponent's shield upon landing...fall straight down or away from them, and hit with the tip of the foot)

6:53 - You timed that dash attack --> utilt badly. If he had shielded he could have punished you hard.

6:56 - I don't know why you utilted after that dtilt...dtilt --> utilt doesn't really work unless you wait for them to hit your shield after the dtilt.
That was also the perfect position in which to dtilt --> dsmash. He landed right in front of you. Pay attention to where and how they land after dtilt, cause it's one of our best setups into dsmashes.

7:12 - That was a very unsafe landing fair on his shield.

7:35 - Badly timed bair after the dsmashes. Then you did jab --> usmash, badly DI'ed his dsmash and died....I don't understand why any of that happened. Were you mashing, expecting a grab? O.o

8:07 - Okay I noticed now that every time you use jab1, you follow up with dtilt (except for the one at 7:35 lol)..not a bad option, but the fact that you're using it every time makes you predictable (and it's not a true combo so they can just shield --> punish it).

8:12 - Here you got hit by an usmash, then a dsmash, then an fthrow, and after each one you uaired when Fox was nowhere nearby...you don't need to momentum cancel when you're not at kill percents.
Also I'm noticing that you approach with dash attack a lot.

8:25 - You could have had that dsmash if you charged it.

8:29 - You screwed up the spacing on that laser...shield-->utilt would have worked.
I see that you were close to the edge, then you read the illusion and tried to punish with a run away pivot laser...that's fine if you know the spacing on the illusion, but if you don't then generally a safer option is to run towards the centre of the stage, shield the illusion, and punish with utilt/dash attack/dash grab depending on the timing and how far away he lands from you.

8:40 - Again, you needlessly 'momentum cancelled' that dash attack and since you were locked into your uair, he landed a kill with uair. Only momentum cancel moves that look like they're going to kill you.

9:08 - You already stunned him (with the laser) and he hasn't hit the ground yet...if you dsmashed him out of his firefox (is that what it's called?) he wouldn't have gotten stunned again, he would have just taken damage.
It would have been better to edgehog, let him firefox on stage, then jump up there and punish with a bair/fair/sideB for the kill.

9:20 - Okay at this point you're taking a lot of damage from the lasers...perhaps I should mention that you can crawl under Fox's lasers.

10:04 - I'm PRETTY sure ZSS can't fthrow cg Fox (maybe 1 regrab, like on Falco) so that wasn't really safe...if you missed that 2nd grab you would have died for sure.

Okay, you died, now I'll watch again.
...
Both of you spotdodge quite a bit whenever you're in CQC and the other one is doing an attack. You should have charged some dsmashes
Whenever he laser camps, you take a bunch of damage because...idk why. Sometimes you just stand there, sometimes you spotdodge (that doesn't work)...you really should be crawling.
Overall I feel like you got hit too much simply because he decided to approach with an attack, and you weren't shielding, or you decided to approach him and he just threw out an attack when you got close. You missed out on dsmashes and uairs because you never really positioned yourself to juggle or trap his landings...you always put yourself at midrange and then he starts camping you.
Sometimes I feel like you were throwing out attacks just because you were behind...even though he wasn't anywhere near you. You're not very good at positioning yourself with ZSS.

I'll let someone else do the other vid.
Wow. Thanks for the advice. Is it too late to say I didn't know the Fox MU at all? I'll definitely work on this. I tend to get too anxious with ZSS and it gets me punished big time.

:phone:
 

infiniteV115

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 14, 2010
Messages
6,445
Location
In the rain.
idk, I don't really know the Fox MU either. It just seems like you don't really have a good grasp on ZSS yet, you haven't mastered her as a character.
 

Tigrex777

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
14
Location
Huntsville, Alabama
Please don't be mistaken. I've played her for a long time now. I was feeling a litle downaround this time so I wasn't playing at my fullest.there is definitely more I can learn with her. I appreciate the advice.

:phone:
 

quiKsilverItaly

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 13, 2009
Messages
268
played c-stick a lot (the second best Fox in Japan, and jeez now i understand why Fox is High Tier on their tierlist). i would say even or +0,5 in Fox favor
 

Zync

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 9, 2010
Messages
489
Location
Costa Rica
Hello guys, Im a former wolf main, but also a ZSS wannabe, in fact i started using it usually to the point where I threw her at a tournament, they recorded 2 matches and both of them are against top players of the country. So what I want to know is.... do I have potential to use her as a serious tourney play? Should I continue using her? What am I doing wrong and what am I doing ok? Thanks in advance :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rI3U6LBD46E vs marth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=or0W3UvP4zg vs ROB

Note that the match after that one vs ryan didnt get recorded, and I lost :/, not by a big difference though
 

Exdeath

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2009
Messages
3,006
Location
Florida
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