ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[-Ran]

ZSS can cancel the end lag of her Down B when using it at the edge of a platform. You'll pop off the edge due to the forward momentum you have from it. I'll get a frame count later today for the quickest action after the slide.

 

[G13_Flux]

wait are u talking about ledge canceling it? or starting up the down b while at the edge.

 

[-Ran]

I'm going to be writing a formal post on how awesome Down B is with pictures/videos. I wrote the following at around six am, so it isn't really cohesive or the final level of implementation. To anyone who wants to mess around with it until then:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/00000000-14.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/00000000-21.png
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3843382/00000000-34.png

So, ZSS's platform pressure game has gotten better. How you ask? Well, pretty simple really. Due to our Upwards pull, we're going to have our opponents end up on the platform a LOT. Did you know, that our Down B not only offers 8 frames of invincibility on start up, but can completely LAG canceled by sliding off an edge after the initial landing lag from doing the dive kick? This enables you to do anything you want on the ledge. The easiest thing to do is drop off doing a nair for added shield pressure. You can do anything else though, from B reversed Paralyzer to cut off their retreat downwards to even wave-dashing BACK onto the platform to pursue them. If you wanted to get really fancy, you could do a Reversed Up B to continue a loop of pressure.

This comes prepackaged with the 'do nothing' mix up. If you do not add in the attack portion of the Down B, it will automatically, laglessly, cancel itself on the platform. This enables you to do anything you want. But wait, there's more. Since you can cancel this on any ledge, you can use this for edge guarding. What if I told you, you could cycle down B's kick continuously on an edge?

What's that, you're stuck on the ledge? Jump -> Down B -> Do your kick towards the edge. During this, you have an option select of holding down B the entire time. If your opponent happens to overlap with your hurt box prior to having a hit box out, you'll activate two frames of invincibility and knock them down, propelling yourself towards the stage. This also comes with the mix up of regrabbing with Down B to refresh invincibility, wall jumping off the edge with Down B to Nair/tether regrab/jump onto stage with air dodge.

Super Fun Fact: If you are doing a dive kick, after ~frame 25 you can cancel out of it with a jump. You can cancel out of it even while hitting someone.

 

[Jandlebars]

All of that sounds extremely promising for ZSS, -Ran. Very nice findings indeed.
ZSS already feels like she does well against people on platforms above her, but being able to take that kind of control when landing back on top of the platform is just more sweet icing on the cake.

 

[traffic.]

The down-B kick edge cancel is great, nair is a great followup because it offers the widest range for those incoming "punishes" your opponent will try for kicking to the stage.

That said, it's as great as how every move can be cancelled on the l/edge, try using this tech to land double aerials on your opponent, and more effectively, try to land on the edges as much as possible to ensure maximum carnage :D


edz- G-flux, if you want an example of how it works, stand at the very edge of a platform, and you'll see a teetering animation. if you are in the middle of an aerial attack, and you land -on that edge- you keep your momentum going down off the platform, and it resets all of your lag frames to allow you to do another move -immediately.- sound awesome? it is. also works at the edge of the stage, you get your jumps back and you dont have to wait for a slow attack to finish before starting another one, and you can change attacks, it's the best way to stay mobile and aggressive :D

 

[-Ran]

Maximizing Down Smash

I feel that we're going to have to learn to know when to use Reverse F-Smash as much as Side B. F-Smash has a high initial knock back, which enables it to be used to safely elevate opponents above ZSS, while Side B has the potential of setting up tilts against Fast Fallers, or low to the ground up airs. Down Smash / Reverse F-Smash might be the safest combo starter after Down-Smash.

Down Smash -> Reverse F-Smash -> and leads to any aerial/up B.
The knock back growth of the reverse portion of F-Smash is incredibly weak. Even at 100%, it is still incredibly easy to follow up.

At low percents, you can easily string out three up airs leading to almost 50% damage off one down Smash, and edge guard position. The bonus of this is that the knockback of the F-Smash has a high base, sending most characters a full hop length into the sky, or better. This makes it worthwhile at most percentages and most match ups.

At other times, Down Smash -> Forward B -> Tilt/low up air might be the best option. However, the issue is that it is easier to DI Forward B, leading to less ability to continue combos.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah haha i know what it is i just couldnt tell if that was the thing Ran was describing. but after seeing the images i understand that is what was being referred to. thanks for clearing it up though haha. it definitely is a great way to add depth and speed to how you pressure your opponent and also defend youself.

You made a really good point Ran about using down b from the ledge and abusing the invincibility that u can gain. that is definitely something that will be a crucial tool in ZSSs ability to get back from the ledge and defend herself while on the ledge. while on the edge, she has very useful and varied options between nair/fair/uair while either landing on stage or drifting slightly away from the ledge to go for a regrab. she can also utilize the down b > walljump that you were talking about and follow up with a backwards nair, bair, or uair. all of these can either be usued in conjunction with a regrab or just getting back onstage. her tethers definitely help with getting regaining invincibility from below the stage where she is safe from pressure.

Something else that could be really useful: does anybody know how long a platfrorm drop takes? say you were on a platform in your shield being pressured, you could preform a platform drop while in shield and instantly down b for invincibility, then jump and nair/fair/uair/bair/dair or whatever else fits your taste. i cant imagine platform drops OOS taking more than a couple frames before u can do a move. also is down b's invincibility on frame 1?

 

[Oro?!]

Jumping out of shield and using downB would net the same effect, and shield drop would probably only save 5 frames give or take depending on ZSS jump speed.

 

[-Ran]

Something else that could be really useful: does anybody know how long a platfrorm drop takes? say you were on a platform in your shield being pressured, you could preform a platform drop while in shield and instantly down b for invincibility, then jump and nair/fair/uair/bair/dair or whatever else fits your taste. i cant imagine platform drops OOS taking more than a couple frames before u can do a move. also is down b's invincibility on frame 1?

I'll get back to you with frame data on the shield drop through a platform. It's probably around the same frames as normal jumping out of shield. Down B's invincibility is frame 1-8, and 2 frames after initiating the B hop on an opponent.

Jumping out of shield and using downB would net the same effect, and shield drop would probably only save 5 frames give or take depending on ZSS jump speed.

I believe ZSS can use Down B after four frames of jumping out of shield. In a frame perfect world, we can break Falco's pillar shield pressure due to the gap of five frames in it. I can't remember what Fox's shield pressure is, but down B is pretty crazy for ZSS. It's even more crazy when you factor in what you can do with it when you have a platform above you to cancel it.

 

[G13_Flux]

well my thinking was that the platform drop would add another option that increases the effect of mind games and making sure your opponent has a hard time predicting your next move. the other thing is that from directly below a platform, a uair or nair can cover almost all of the platform, if not all of it (not exactly sure on their ranges), but that is something that cant really be done with a standard OOS aerial. this gives you a new angle of attack, and the difference in the look of the maneuver can easily confuse your opponent and condition them to think more about their reactions while ur mixing between maneuvers like that and standard OOS defensive options.

also, yeah she has 3 frames of jumpsquat, so technically on frame 4 she should be able to down b. i know that fox's nair, dair, and bair have 7,9, and 10 frames of landing lag respectively (when l cancelled, obviously). unfortunatly the melee fox page in SWF does not give shield stun or hitlag information, so its impossible to tell what the exact window is that you have to escape.

 

[-Ran]

also, yeah she has 3 frames of jumpsquat, so technically on frame 4 she should be able to down b. i know that fox's nair, dair, and bair have 7,9, and 10 frames of landing lag respectively (when l cancelled, obviously). unfortunatly the melee fox page in SWF does not give shield stun or hitlag information, so its impossible to tell what the exact window is that you have to escape.

I'll test the frames for Fox later tonight/tomorrow against shield.

Oh, in case people didn't know. Up Air is amazing against shields on a platform opponent. When you up air as you are level with a platform, you'll actually land on that platform. With Shield dropping, shield stun, etc, ZSS has a pretty nice frame advantage. I think it ends up being 4~5 frames. Interesting enough, when doing a short hop up air against a shield, after dropping slightly [2-5 frames] from the platform... Zss will always land on the platform prepared to pressure. However, if they don't shield, or you whiff, you go through the platform to relative safety. In general, fast fall Up air is pretty safe on shield. I'm pretty sure Fast fall Up air at the last second + Jab beats out most things in terms of raw speed. Throw in a mix up of Down B to force whiffs vs invincibility and punish with dive kick, and you have a pretty annoying pressure. Also, the fact we have a beast spot dodge can force some bad choices from our opponents.

 

[Oro?!]

Ran I'm loving all of this stuff. I have some technology vs Spacies I'm working on but I'm not sure it's 100% so I will post more about it when I nail it a bit more.

Definitely implementing the reverse fsmash vs fastfallers, and I've already been doing the ledge cancel divekicks/platform cancel uairs. Keep up the good theorycrafting man.

 

[-Ran]

Ran I'm loving all of this stuff.

Thanks. My goal is to promote sharing, since I don't like when people horde information/techs so that they can 'be the best.' It's somewhat funny that people view ZSS as mid/low in the game currently. She's a sleeper. You can't give someone an 8 frame invincibility move with no commitment and be bad. Speaking of which....

Do you guys realize how fast down B is? It's around the same speed as Shiek's/Marth's/ZSS's dash. Fox is capable of passing up ZSS, unfortunately for him...

Fox cannot Up Smash ZSS in her Down B [sorta], if you hold B unless he perfectly times/spaces it. Any overlapping of hurtboxes will cause ZSS to jump off him, prior to the hitbox coming out. So if Fox is going for the easy, "I'll just get inside and up smash!' method, it simply won't work. Fox has to space so that only his foot touches ZSS at anytime. Unfortunately for Fox, a ZSS can actively alter their speed/direction of their Down B to make this an even harder task to accomplish.

Thus, as a ZSS player, you can use your Down B as an incredibly escape tool / approach abort. Running towards someone, then Down B through/away from them is relatively safe. Very few characters can catch ZSS during it, even when initiating their on the same frame as ZSS and completely overlapping at the start. Any attempt to grab her, will result in their arms/body touching ZSS prior to their grab hitbox being out. This results in her jumping off of them. It IS possible to grab ZSS when she's holding B during her Down B, but damn, the timing/spacing is insane.

There's also the fact that during the move, ZSS's hitbox becomes one of the smallest in the game. She is only slightly larger than Squirtle when he's in his shell! Below, is a picture taken in Fixed Camera Mode.

Yea, try to grab or attack it without a disjoint when touching it leads to ZSS becoming pretty safe due to a knockdown+ two frames of invincibility.

Now, there is a weakness to this. When ZSS's Down B jump is shielded, she jumps a significant distance, and without a platform to interrupt her, she can be vulnerable to fast characters. However, this is asking a great deal of execution/reaction/reading from your opponent. You'd have to be insanely predictable to be punished for Down B false approaches/grab escapes. Now, give ZSS a platform, and suddenly you can do Down B false approach to platform wave landing to, well you get the idea.

It's getting to the point where I'm tempted to just make a thread and post all of my stuff in it. >> I wonder how much more information I'll be finding out about Down B.

 

[-Ran]

I honestly think you cannot grab ascending down B. For the first eight frames, you're invincible. The best shot a character would have is to start their grab the frame after you initiate down B. But, even then, down B is going to go above most character's grab ranges due to how quickly you rise. Around frame 10-13, you're above most grab ranges.

Oh, and if you thought Sonic's homing attack was annoying? ZSS's down B beats it every time. It beats anything that isn't disjointed from what I can tell.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Why the **** did you call that a type 2 wavebounce

A better question is why are we calling these wavebounces? that's just a ****ty na,e thw brawl community fave them, despite the fact that they have nothing in common with the typical use of the wave- acronym in melee. Should just use BR and RBR, the acronyms for B-reverse and reverse b-reverses respectively.

Oh yeah, forgot to address this. The wave- acronym you're referring to isn't even from melee. Lol

 

[G13_Flux]

what about if you are below sonic? if his homing attack collides with you will you still flip jump? or does positioning matter?

and yeah grabbing down b will not do anything. you will most likely avoid it and even if you somehow didnt the 8 frames of invincibility would most likely easily cover yourself.

 

[-Ran]

what about if you are below sonic? if his homing attack collides with you will you still flip jump? or does positioning matter?

As long as you're holding B before getting hit, you'll beat it. I tested multiple angles.

 

[G13_Flux]

thats crazy. this one move adds such a level of depth to her defensive game and offensive game alike its not even funny. coupled with the fact that it compliments her overall already great mobility, this move really presents a lot of utility in gameplay. in videos as is, i dont see a lot of use in general out of this move. in the future, as her metagame develops, i can definitely see it becoming an integral part of her game.

 

[ChicknMonkey]

Not sure if this has been talked about yet (I didnt search the thread) but the other day I was fooling around with her upB near the edge of a stage while the other person was recovering (ie in the air). The beam came up and brought them down for what seemed like a spike/meteor spike. I feel like this could have serious gimp potential, but I also suspect it is something similar to Fox's down throw on the edge in Melee where you think you found something great, but in practice its pretty worthless.
Anyway, thoughts? Again I apologize if this appeared somewhere else in this thread.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah up b is a meteor. it definitely has usage, its not as limited as foxs dthrow. you can jump offstage and use up b to intercept certain recoveries if they are not too low. i see more people use it when their opponent is high up offstage, and they can use up b to get that extra reach to bring them down lower. a good combo i can see (with good reaction) is using up b, then imediately down b to footstool.

 

[-Ran]

I can't do much research right now, since I don't have a controller for computer until I get my new converter. With that said, has anyone considered using retreating Back jump as a bait for shield grabs? To me, her backwards jumping animation looks suspiciously like her Up Air. During jump squat, press away from the direction you are facing, and then continue in the direction you're going. It significantly shifts her hurtbox as well, making her avoid most jabs, down tilts, and the like. By frame 15, ZSS is playing 'as stiff as a board,' which eludes most grabs in the game.

Best Tomahawk in the game? Maybe. This is before we consider that we effectively have an aerial grab with our Side B, which even if they begin to retreat from you, can be b-reversed forwards to gain extra distance. Oh, you can also maintain forward momentum during the Backwards jump animation. I just completely forgot to record myself doing it.

 

[G13_Flux]

i actually do that with wolf a lot. i should start doing it with ZSS more too though, because her ability to punish from a distance (nair, side b, paralyzer) are all great. it has usage going the other way too, like feigning a retreat, then jumping backwards with a bair or even back facing nair if they go airborne.

 

[Oro?!]

Silent Spectre used to use that forward momentum backward jump. Everyone called it like a varial flip? or something. Falcon could use it to waveland off of platforms that are too tall for his full hop since the way his body gets positioned allows him to be considered above it during the varial flip. There really aren't practical spacing uses for it though, since using spacing or a safer tomahawk are probably better options.

 

[Sync8699]

I feel like ZSS can get more use out of it than Falcon. It's faster, and she has longer forward-ranging moves

 

[theONEjanitor]

jab - still beast. very fast. does it combo on all characters now?
ftilt - still okay but other moves are better in most situations. use d-tilt.
Dtilt- still beast. follow up with nair
uptilt - still good, still fast, hits behind her and continues/starts combos. has a butt ton of lag at the end though, so don't do it unless you're confident it'll hit. and probably wait til mid percents.
d-smash- essential. space it, using it for big punish setups. follow with d-tilt or forward -b for combos. f-smash for kills
upsmash- more beast than before, throw it in your combos. use it after forward b or after shffl nair.
f-smash - kinda ridic tbh, easy kills from long range
nair- amazing. i would say it is the signature move of ZSS.
fair - just use nair
dair - so good. set up for combos/kills. dair-bair at high percents depending on DI.
bair- second best kill move to f-smash. use it for a hard hitting aerial.
upair - basic juggle move. use it to snipe unsuspecting people. otherwise, just use nair lol it leads to more follow ups
forward+b - lol free combo (i wish the aerial version was still a kill move tho). forward b to nair is gooood. forward b to bair for killz
down + b - this move is amazing. use to to approach, to retreat, to recover, to mindgame. I would prefer the ability to use aerials immediatly out of it rather than divekick. but whevs.
b - decent projectile. not spammable like other projectiles, but we don't need dat
up - b - use this usually to recover. this game is less forgiving with side-b positioning than brawl. and usually we don't recover high in smash. I haven't experienced much with using this offensively.
dash attack - MEH. this move sucks. i dont use it ever. use running upsmash or shffl nair. or dash cancel - whatever.

oh and grab - uh lol just generally don't use grab. its still dumb. this aint brawl where grabs are free. plus we have many ways to to set up combos, so you don't need to grab. use nair or dair out of shield rather than grab.
you can use it as a lulzy punish for a read back roll, but again, better options are there

 

[G13_Flux]

well you wouldnt use grab like you would with any other character that has a normal one. its defeinitely not for OOS purposes, but it has a lot of use in conjunction with her dash dance to punish approaches, especially with her beast pivot grab. it can also be used to cover quick range during a punish that she otherwise might not be able to cover. i wouldnt say just dont use her grab in general. it definitely has its uses. it just doesnt carry the same usage that most other characters grabs do.

fair also has a lot of uses as well. its not interchangable with nair, as they have totally different properties, one benefitting in situations that the other doesnt have much usage it. one for instance is killing. another is defense. while nairs range makes it a great defensive move, fairs double kick gives it a much longer duration that has a lot of uses in preventing approaches on the ground, especially when retreating.

overall i think u covered the general jist of her moves well, but still i think its harder to exactly pinpoint their uses in just a sentence each. theres so many different situations where different moves can apply its hard to really give a simple description of their uses.

 

[kyroN]

I swear I saw someone dive kick immediately in a video... Is this possible or do you have to finish the down-b jump?

 

[G13_Flux]

no you can dive kick or jump at any point out of a down b. so yes that is very possible.

 

[kyroN]

Okay so I'm just too horrible to pull it off. Obviously too used to Brawl buffering.

 

[G13_Flux]

yeah u just gotta get the timing down. i go into training mode and just practice doing maneuvers to build up muscle memory, and that way you can pull of things on the spot with more efficiency. its just practice is all it is, shouldnt take u long at all to get comfortable with it!

 

[theONEjanitor]

i really think that dash canceled moves are going to be really key for ZSS.
esp. since her dash attack garbanzo.

but she runs really fast, and she can follow DI really well. dash cancel dtilt and dash cancel d-smash I think are going to be very useful. maybe even f-smash.

 

[-Ran]

no you can dive kick or jump at any point out of a down b. so yes that is very possible.

Not true, there is a frame window in which you cannot on start up. Off the top of my head it's around frame 12.

 

[Yeroc]

Frame 9

 

[G13_Flux]

well thats still pretty quickly. its effectively instantaneous. so bassically once the invincibility ends you can do it.

 

[Sarix]

Maybe it's just because I've been playing a lot of Guilty Gear lately but ZSS reminds a bit of how Millia plays in terms of creating mix-up situations. Her paralyzer shot's dash cancel makes it utility similar to Millia's pin in a neutral position on the stage and I found it nice for fishing out reactions and creating mix-up approaches. Her okizeme options on a knocked down opponent are rather nasty as well with Dsmash, Dtilt, and SH Dair off the top of my head. Overall I just found that given she is heavily reset based also makes her really good at mix-up situations imo and can be very oppressive on a knocked down opponent.

I may be wrong though, so take it as you will.

 

[standardtoaster]

messed around w/ zss for like two minutes and found that you can dair -> footstool at around 50 or 60. you can do dair them again if you follow the footstool. idk if that's of any use

 

[Oro?!]

Maybe it's just because I've been playing a lot of Guilty Gear lately but ZSS reminds a bit of how Millia plays in terms of creating mix-up situations. Her paralyzer shot's dash cancel makes it utility similar to Millia's pin in a neutral position on the stage and I found it nice for fishing out reactions and creating mix-up approaches. Her okizeme options on a knocked down opponent are rather nasty as well with Dsmash, Dtilt, and SH Dair off the top of my head. Overall I just found that given she is heavily reset based also makes her really good at mix-up situations imo and can be very oppressive on a knocked down opponent.

I may be wrong though, so take it as you will.

I can definitely see the comparisons. You can use parazlyer for 50/50 situations by either crossing up with nair or fading away with nair which is something I do a lot. It just sucks because there are a lot of really good characters that can deal with your pressure and setups, and ZSS does not have a good grab to tick throw or even that good of options out of her throws.

If only ZSS had tk bad moon or 6k for overhead mixups. : P

 

[-Ran]

ZSS's horizontal rush is hilarious.

Assuming neutral stance.

Laser -> Run -> Short hop Laser -> _________________

1. Nair.
2. Reverse Aerial Bair.
3. Run through pivot grab.
4. Wave dash back + grab.
5. Over-Spaced Down Smash to cover any retaliation.
6. Down Tilt.
7. Down B Retreat to reset.
8. Down B cross up/throw bait.
9. Wave Bounce retreating Side B.
10. Back jump with forward momentum to appear to be up air, tomahawk.

This is before we look at platforms and how they alter her approaching options. She has so many legit options on the ground to approach with, and so many of them are safe retreats/neutral resets.

fair - just use nair

First hit of Fair can be used as a jab reset.

 

[Sarix]

I can definitely see the comparisons. You can use parazlyer for 50/50 situations by either crossing up with nair or fading away with nair which is something I do a lot. It just sucks because there are a lot of really good characters that can deal with your pressure and setups, and ZSS does not have a good grab to tick throw or even that good of options out of her throws.

If only ZSS had tk bad moon or 6k for overhead mixups. : P

Lol if only, that or tandem top/pretty maze, aka beastly okizeme on knockdown. :D

It is unfortunate that ZSS has poor tick throw options and throw follow ups considering her throws themselves are not bad imo. Hopefully in later updates they can improve her pressure and set-ups without making her become less reset character, b/c I think that is a very nifty play style. It's also nice because being reset based also inherently makes her somewhat of a mix-up character since she wants to make her opponent guess wrong in the situations she can create to gain further momentum.

She's definitely very enjoyable since aside from zoning I like mix-up characters a lot.

 

[ph00tbag]

I can't do much research right now, since I don't have a controller for computer until I get my new converter. With that said, has anyone considered using retreating Back jump as a bait for shield grabs? To me, her backwards jumping animation looks suspiciously like her Up Air. During jump squat, press away from the direction you are facing, and then continue in the direction you're going. It significantly shifts her hurtbox as well, making her avoid most jabs, down tilts, and the like. By frame 15, ZSS is playing 'as stiff as a board,' which eludes most grabs in the game.

I actually incorporated this into my ditto game a lot back in the brawl days. ZSS could backflip over her own lasers, which is what actually made the ditto about more than just shooting baby lasers.

ZSS's SH is shorter this time around, so I don't know if it has as many applications. It definitely makes zoning with the threat of bair a whole lot more scary.