ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[clowsui]

i'm doing testing sometime this week on something that mahie brought up to me

can you option select the opponent in a close range situation w dsmash

ie if you choose dsmash, and you see they respond by retreating, can you follow w jump nair

how does side b fit into this

etc

results up soon

 

[Ryota]

Following up dair with divekick is one of the most reliable ways to get kills on certain percentages. Just be careful not to mash B too hard and do the built-in footstool.

Small gimmick you can do when you grab someone against the edge at low to mid percentages, FThrow and immediately divekick. Fast, hard to really stop and people tend to jump netting you a random kill.

Also, divekick in general is amazing for edgeguards, cannot emphasize this enough.

 

[\Apples]

Small gimmick you can do when you grab someone against the edge at low to mid percentages, FThrow and immediately divekick. Fast, hard to really stop and people tend to jump netting you a random kill.

Kind of a cool idea. One of the riskiest tactics in all of Smash but I can dig it for friendlies. I'll probably toy around with this, it'd be cool if it was a real thing vs some characters.

 

[breez]

Kind of a cool idea. One of the riskiest tactics in all of Smash but I can dig it for friendlies. I'll probably toy around with this, it'd be cool if it was a real thing vs some characters.

It is real, and isn't particularly risky. You can jump out of it relatively quickly, and you aren't going to get gimped.

 

[ph00tbag]

Okay, ladies, here's some tech for you girls to start looking into.

One thing I've always missed from ZSS's Brawl arsenal was the ability to poke with Plasma Whip from a ledgehop, then immediately regrab the ledge. In P:M, ZSS's fall speed is simply too high for this to be a realistic option. However, there is another way:

1. Perform a jump from the ledge.
2. B-reverse Plasma Whip.
3. Drift backwards.

There's a pretty large window for this where ZSS will perform a Plasma Whip without going into a tether animation, and still grab the ledge afterwards. If you can get close to the end of this window, you can get the Plasma Whip low enough to poke even some of the shorter characters if they aren't crouching.

I may try experimenting with the mechanics underlying this a bit more, so stay tuned.

 

[G13_Flux]

can u drift backward after that type of wavebounce though? it would definitely give u a lot of forward momentum to begin with. i would think that would either send u right onto the stage or a tad under it if its like smashville FD or battlefield

 

[ph00tbag]

You have to perform the Plasma Whip away from the stage, then b-reverse back toward the stage, this reverses the momentum towards the stage from the ledge hop. Then you have to tilt the stick back away from the stage in order to drift off the stage.

I've also found that because of the longer on-hit animation, it's tough to get actual follow ups off this unless you're just doing the Plasma Whip onto the stage. But considering you're not exactly punishable, and you've still negated their position onstage, it's a pretty fair tradeoff. It's still really strong on block.

 

[G13_Flux]

Yeah i went and tested it out earlier today and i see how it can work now. i kept grabbing the edge when i tried it at first, but i got used to the timing haha.

the wavebounce in general is something that i think is largely underused. with ZSS especially, a type 2 wavebounce (jump backwards, you will attack towards the way you jumped, but momentum will be shifted opposite the way u were initially moving) is very useful because you can feign bair approaches and then then punish with the range of the side b. wavebounces greatest applications IMO are baiting and punishing. and with characters that can really make good use of them, its a very valuable tactic.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why the **** did you call that a type 2 wavebounce

A better question is why are we calling these wavebounces? that's just a ****ty na,e thw brawl community fave them, despite the fact that they have nothing in common with the typical use of the wave- acronym in melee. Should just use BR and RBR, the acronyms for B-reverse and reverse b-reverses respectively.

 

[G13_Flux]

i use wavebounce because its the exact same thing as a b reverse, and i can use whatever word i want. i called it a type 2 wavebounce because there are two wavebounces you can perform with characters whose specials can perform them, and nobody ever distinguishes between the two. if you want to call them b reverses, then go ahead. but i am going to call them wavebounces. there are some people who still like brawl for fun ya know. sure its not at the same competitive level as melee, but that doesnt mean that any term that came from brawl should just be outcasted.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The problem isn't with brawl, the problem is that the name makes no sense. I guess if you like doing things that don't make sense than go ahead.

 

[Oro?!]

Are you guys using nair yet?

 

[G13_Flux]

well nair off the ledge is a given, but you dont want to do that every time. ill mix between using nair fair and uair, and i also mix between doing those aerials directly into an L cancel on stage, or drifting away after using them and grabbing the ledge again.

Edit: also if u think about it, the term wavedash actually makes less sense than wavebounce. theres nothing particularly wavey about doing a wavedash. There is no oscillation involved in any part of that technique, its a straight forward or backward burst of momentum. but in a wavecounce, your momentum oscilates between its positive and negative amplitudes for half of a period, or in other words, you end up with the same momentum in the exact opposite direction as u originally had. long story short: oscillations are necessary for waves to exist.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Why the **** did you call that a type 2 wavebounce

A better question is why are we calling these wavebounces? that's just a ****ty na,e thw brawl community fave them, despite the fact that they have nothing in common with the typical use of the wave- acronym in melee. Should just use BR and RBR, the acronyms for B-reverse and reverse b-reverses respectively.

The hostility in this post is enormous.

 

[-Ran]

So, this is going to sound stupid. I'm grasping how to play ZSS against good players who understand the game. When I can read/react with her, I'm able to pull off some pretty decent stuff since I can read the DI/intentions of the other player, but what are her walls for when a player isn't thinking on that level? I don't know how to approach playing her against a low level player that is just spacing a move or two. My instinct is just to heavy rush down against them since I really want to show off. >> I had this same issue in Brawl. I could never use my Marth against players that weren't at or above my skill level. I had to use my Snake, since I could just focus on the hard punish.

Also, any frame data on ZSS yet? She seems to have a rather quick spot dodge.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The hostility in this post is enormous.

It's hostility towards the name. It's much less than it appears to you, however. I just don't temper my language unless necessary, and I'm usually pretty direct. It sounds hostile, but that's just how I express things, there's really not much emotion involved there.

 

[G13_Flux]

So, this is going to sound stupid. I'm grasping how to play ZSS against good players who understand the game. When I can read/react with her, I'm able to pull off some pretty decent stuff since I can read the DI/intentions of the other player, but what are her walls for when a player isn't thinking on that level? I don't know how to approach playing her against a low level player that is just spacing a move or two. My instinct is just to heavy rush down against them since I really want to show off. >> I had this same issue in Brawl. I could never use my Marth against players that weren't at or above my skill level. I had to use my Snake, since I could just focus on the hard punish.

Also, any frame data on ZSS yet? She seems to have a rather quick spot dodge.

i used to notice this happen. i would play against really good people, learn techniques, and really try to think about the game, but then when i played people who hardely ever played, they would just spam stuff that i wasnt used to and it would kill me. in all honesty, to beat a noob u gotta think like a noob. whenever that happens, u gotta dumb down ur game a little bit and focus on simple things that they will fall for, because they arent going to react to mindgames like you would expect and u exert less control over them with techniques that are designed to oppose the very same techniques that opponents use (like dash dancing, wavedashing, etc.). with ZSS, things like paralyzer gun, side b, forward smash, dsmash, and nair walls are just gonna overwhelm them, because people at lower skill levels arent really accustomed to baiting and punishing, and they wont be able to avoid meaty attacks like those all too well. hell even grab will work against people like that. but u just have to play ur opponents game better than they do, and since u are more experienced with the game and have better control over ur character, this will be easy to do since most of what u need to do is simple maneuvers.

i dont think theres any data yet. it just depends on when someone looks it up with brawl box. i know her jab is frame 2.

 

[Yeroc]

I wish I had time to do the legwork on this one, but between my other development objectives, and multiple outside obligations, I simply can't. What I can do, however, is fill in the gaps for people, since BBox and PSA will only tell you most of the story.

Here are the .gct frame speed mods that you guys will need to start figuring this stuff out:
Standing grab: 1.7x at frame 29
Dash grab: 1.33x at frame 35
Pivot grab: 1.5x at frame 1, 1x at frame 16, 1.25x at frame 29 {Everything in the the pivot grab subaction happens 5 frames earlier in-game}
Nair: 2x at frame 1, 1x at frame 9 {Everything in the nair subaction happens up to 4 frames earlier in-game}

Aerial Landing Lag: (Regular/L-Canceled)
Nair: 16/8
Fair: 20/10
Bair: 16/8
Uair: 19/9
Dair: 18/9

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

i used to notice this happen. i would play against really good people, learn techniques, and really try to think about the game, but then when i played people who hardely ever played, they would just spam stuff that i wasnt used to and it would kill me. in all honesty, to beat a noob u gotta think like a noob. whenever that happens, u gotta dumb down ur game a little bit and focus on simple things that they will fall for, because they arent going to react to mindgames like you would expect and u exert less control over them with techniques that are designed to oppose the very same techniques that opponents use (like dash dancing, wavedashing, etc.). with ZSS, things like paralyzer gun, side b, forward smash, dsmash, and nair walls are just gonna overwhelm them, because people at lower skill levels arent really accustomed to baiting and punishing, and they wont be able to avoid meaty attacks like those all too well. hell even grab will work against people like that. but u just have to play ur opponents game better than they do, and since u are more experienced with the game and have better control over ur character, this will be easy to do since most of what u need to do is simple maneuvers.

i dont think theres any data yet. it just depends on when someone looks it up with brawl box. i know her jab is frame 2.

What the. To beat a noob you have to think like a noob? Thats a horrible way to think. If you, the player, is getting beat by simple stuff or spam or whatever, you should be adapting and punishing. You the player are responsible for how you play your character, and getting beat by someone who doesn't play the same as your "good" friends means you the player has got some work to do on your inside game. Never "think like a noob". You can simplify your game sure, but never "dumb" your game down. The smart player is the better player.

 

[-Ran]

I believe what he was saying was, "Treat worse players as such, and use the tactics that they can't deal with." I'm not a fan of the sentiment, since I should be trying to play my hardest against players that are worse than me so that my peak skill cap can increase. Sure, I could beat my friends spacing my Smash attacks, but I want to overpressure as much as possible against them. I'm trying to find the 'safe pressure' setting on ZSS. I was looking for advice as to if anyone had figured out a decent wall yet.

I'm going to be making a pretty big post in a few days regarding frame data, recovery options, and edge guarding for ZSS. I figured out a good bit of stuff. I had to get Dolphin running on my computer with Project M so I could do frame by frame to verify a few things though. Sweet delicious frame by frame mode.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

I hope that's what you take away from this, you should never dumb your own play down

 

[ph00tbag]

Actually, no, G13 is pretty much spot-on. If a player is genuinely bad, and you can beat them with the same tactic over and over again, there is absolutely no reason for you to break out counters to that tactic's counter until they begin to counter your winning tactic. In a tournament setting, where stamina is very important, this will conserve energy, because you won't have to think as hard about the game.

You really only need to be putting out mix-ups if you know your opponent is susceptible to them in the first place.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why, exactly, is playing against bad players a valuable point of discussion?
pro-tip: it's not

 

[Oro?!]

Playing against worse players is a very valid strategy as far as I'm concerned in order to get better. It allows you to practice setups and execution against a human opponent, and also work on maintaining a strong mental game. While it lacks a lot of the learning you would get from playing a stronger player such as the minute details of a matchup, spacing tendencies, mindgames, or anything along those lines, you will not be able to even keep pace with stronger players if your fundamentals aren't strong.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

Actually, no, G13 is pretty much spot-on. If a player is genuinely bad, and you can beat them with the same tactic over and over again, there is absolutely no reason for you to break out counters to that tactic's counter until they begin to counter your winning tactic. In a tournament setting, where stamina is very important, this will conserve energy, because you won't have to think as hard about the game.

You really only need to be putting out mix-ups if you know your opponent is susceptible to them in the first place.

I'm not saying that exactly. I'm saying that you as the player should be able to employ the majority of your mind games and metagame vs a less skilled opponent. As a way of "staying in shape" so to speak. Smash is a game where people develop habits, good or bad. You should always be trying to actively practice good habits, muscle memory and such. The more you do easy things vs bad players, the more your body and brain forget what to do vs good players

 

[traffic.]

if you can handily beat down a series of opponents, or the same opponent repeatedly (vis a vis, good loser/practice partner who wants to play a stronger opponent) you should take that opportunity to dial in your combo timing. falcon uair uair uair knee****, for example, you can really get the timing and spacing to the juggle down by practicing it on every noobin you run into. for them it can just as much be training to DI away from the combo, but it just gives you slight variations to keep comboing. never bring yourself down to a noobin's level, and if they are beating you because you don't know what to do against a noobin, you are a noobin, and you should just accept that.


EDIT FOR ACTUAL TOPIC OF DISCUSSION - ZSS approach mixups

If you are looking for alternatives to your b-noodling, bair/nair shuffles are a great way to keep them away from getting in. nair is so damn fast, and bair has pretty decent knockback, if you are trying to keep your opponent at bay for constant reset/approach practice. the noodle is great for bringing them in for combo setups, but relying on it too heavily to open up can cause a lot of punish opportunities.

 

[DiSQO_BuNNY]

if you can handily beat down a series of opponents, or the same opponent repeatedly (vis a vis, good loser/practice partner who wants to play a stronger opponent) you should take that opportunity to dial in your combo timing. falcon uair uair uair knee****, for example, you can really get the timing and spacing to the juggle down by practicing it on every noobin you run into. for them it can just as much be training to DI away from the combo, but it just gives you slight variations to keep comboing. never bring yourself down to a noobin's level, and if they are beating you because you don't know what to do against a noobin, you are a noobin, and you should just accept that.


EDIT FOR ACTUAL TOPIC OF DISCUSSION - ZSS approach mixups

If you are looking for alternatives to your b-noodling, bair/nair shuffles are a great way to keep them away from getting in. nair is so damn fast, and bair has pretty decent knockback, if you are trying to keep your opponent at bay for constant reset/approach practice. the noodle is great for bringing them in for combo setups, but relying on it too heavily to open up can cause a lot of punish opportunities.

Agreed to both of these.

 

[ph00tbag]

I'm not saying that exactly. I'm saying that you as the player should be able to employ the majority of your mind games and metagame vs a less skilled opponent. As a way of "staying in shape" so to speak. Smash is a game where people develop habits, good or bad. You should always be trying to actively practice good habits, muscle memory and such. The more you do easy things vs bad players, the more your body and brain forget what to do vs good players

Well, that's why you don't practice your mental aspects against players who are worse than you. It's like Oro and traffic are saying. If you can consistently open up your opponent with one tactic, develop your follow-ups and execution on that tactic against that opponent. Then, when you play a better player, and you get an opening by mix-up up into that tactic, you can execute more reliably on reaction.

It's the mark of a losing player to carry their habits from one opponent to the next.

 

[-Ran]

I wish I had time to do the legwork on this one, but between my other development objectives, and multiple outside obligations, I simply can't. What I can do, however, is fill in the gaps for people, since BBox and PSA will only tell you most of the story.

Here are the .gct frame speed mods that you guys will need to start figuring this stuff out:
Standing grab: 1.7x at frame 29
Dash grab: 1.33x at frame 35
Pivot grab: 1.5x at frame 1, 1x at frame 16, 1.25x at frame 29 {Everything in the the pivot grab subaction happens 5 frames earlier in-game}
Nair: 2x at frame 1, 1x at frame 9 {Everything in the nair subaction happens up to 4 frames earlier in-game}

Aerial Landing Lag: (Regular/L-Canceled)
Nair: 16/8
Fair: 20/10
Bair: 16/8
Uair: 19/9
Dair: 18/9

Thanks for saving me the time of counting those frames. I'm currently getting all of the Hitlag on shield stuff for the major moves. >>

 

[RaynEX]

I'm not saying that exactly. I'm saying that you as the player should be able to employ the majority of your mind games and metagame vs a less skilled opponent. As a way of "staying in shape" so to speak. Smash is a game where people develop habits, good or bad. You should always be trying to actively practice good habits, muscle memory and such. The more you do easy things vs bad players, the more your body and brain forget what to do vs good players

You can't just employ mindgames against bad players. The term itself implies mental trickery, and you can't outwit someone who isn't thinking. If they are not able to deal with an effective, one dimensional strategy that you've been recycling for many stocks/games - they don't deserve to see the multifaceted nature of your actual game. As the saying goes "if it ain't broke don't fix it".

Playing against lesser players, you won't improve in the traditional sense, (i.e.: you won't be able to employ complicated strategies in high level matches and feel awesome when they succeed) but you WILL learn when and how to save your tricks / mix-ups for when they matter most. Part of being a strong player is knowing when to hold back, and use only what is necessary to defeat an opponent. That is VITAL in a competitive setting.

You're right, actively trying to improve is paramount, but you have to be able to identify what you can / cannot practice vs. certain players. For example, you can autopilot combos against bad players and work on muscle memory. Alternatively, planning excessively or racking your brain to figure out the best decision might not be necessary. Dumbing it down is not what this is called. You're adapting to your opponent's skill level and making the appropriate decision.

"The more you do easy things vs bad players, the more your body and brain forget what to do vs good players". This is preposterous. You do what is necessary to win as efficiently as possible. If the easy things are what work, then that is what you do. If the complicated things are what work, then that is what you do. You change it up and adapt. This understanding is repeatedly applied on a case-by-case basis.

 

[-Ran]

I think we need to move on from this topic guys. Lol. Seriously, I was just looking if anyone had any interesting walls yet. I didn't want people to start discussing the merits of how one should play against a low level player. It's simple, when practicing, you should attempt to employ whatever you can realistic practice against them. If you're in a tournament, you sweep the leg until they learn to block low. /Topic.

Wow, you are in a crouch Fox's upsmash doesn't kill till 140% on FD with no other DI. Speaking of which:

Fox's Dash Attack - ~100%.
Fox's Nair - ~90%
Shiek's Dash Attack ~60%
Marth's NonTippered Fair ~110%
Ivysaur's Fair - ~90%

Crouch Cancel Down Smash is going to be too good. I need to test how it works out against Dair to Shine from Falco. Speaking of downsmash, some characters cannot act until their feet hit the ground due to their weight. This then puts them into their hard fall landing lag. Around ~60-90% on heavy characters they start to be able to DI directly down into the ground, which isn't the best idea.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why, exactly, is playing against bad players a valuable point of discussion?
pro-tip: it's not

Just wanted to remind everyone what a waste of time that is.

 

[G13_Flux]

you misinterpreted me completely disco bunny. what you said to do in ur post to me is basically a repeat of what i was trying to say. maybe i should have used better wording, but, just for the record, i was not trying to convey the message that you need to become dumber when u player worse people. thinking like a noob, is different from playing like noob, the goal is to understand how they play.

Dumbing down your game is a figure of speech. i didnt mean that you need to play dumber and become a stupid player, it just means you need to stop trying to think about your opponent like he is an extremely smart player. how RaynEX described it was exactly what i meant, but just with more precise wording. i was simply trying to convey my message in an easier way for Ran to understand. my basic point was that your not gonna make much use out of technically precise movements and advanced tactics that are usually employed to aid you when the situation is tight and your opponent has a hold on all of your current options (ie, they are smart and know how to cover your options). so no, when playing against someone not as intelligent in the game as you, you do not "make yourself dumber" as you interpereted it or bring your game down to their level, but you need to think like how they are going to think. You cant treat them like a smart player, you have to treat them as lesser, and thus, u need to focus on simpler strategies that are designed around their level of intelligence (hence thinking like a noob). you cant beat them if you dont know what they are doing, so you have to think like them and understand them, in a more primitive fashion. as Oro said, this is where your fundamentals can be practiced, and is a good way to practice exercising control over your characters. Your not going to be able to work every aspect of your game in these situations, but certain aspects definitely CAN be exercised. if you lose muscle memory than you are letting yourself fall to autopilot, which is a very bad playstyle in general. every move you make should be what you intend to do.

i think pretty much everyone agrees on this point, like i said, i think some of you took what i said wrong. likewise, i am all for going back to discussing zero suit:

despite her lack of a fast standing OOS grab, i think she has great defensive options in general. her nair OOS is great, and so is her bair and fair, and even uair on larger characters. something that i like depending on the MU is retreating fairs. the double hit functions really well to prevent DD punishes (something that nair doesnt do as well), and it has good range to boot and fair power to boot (no pun intended). if the opponent takes the high road (which is the only way that ive noticed people can attempt to punish my fair walls, a quick uair or upsmash will suffice well to keep them at bay.

also, can u really CC foxs up smash at that percent? i was under the impression that unless your bowswer or DK or something, once u hit that high of a percantage you cant CC attacks other than like jabs maybe.

 

[Oro?!]

I think Im getting some more matches recorded tonight. Time to test out some new technology , now with less suicides!

 

[-Ran]

despite her lack of a fast standing OOS grab, i think she has great defensive options in general. her nair OOS is great, and so is her bair and fair, and even uair on larger characters. something that i like depending on the MU is retreating fairs. the double hit functions really well to prevent DD punishes (something that nair doesnt do as well), and it has good range to boot and fair power to boot (no pun intended). if the opponent takes the high road (which is the only way that ive noticed people can attempt to punish my fair walls, a quick uair or upsmash will suffice well to keep them at bay.

also, can u really CC foxs up smash at that percent? i was under the impression that unless your bowswer or DK or something, once u hit that high of a percantage you cant CC attacks other than like jabs maybe.

Poor wording on it. I meant to say that you will live up to 140% from Fox's upsmash if you're crouching when getting hit, and just DIing straight down. The other numbers in the post are actual CC numbers.

 

[G13_Flux]

oh ok. if ur fast enough, u can condition urself to SDI his up smash down and tech it. ive been trying to get better at it, but it definitely requires prediction, and only works when ur on the ground. thats cool about the other crouch cancels, her dtilt is like on par with sheiks dtilt IMO, and it works great with CCs frequently, and sets up for combos. i actually havent tested CCs all that much with dsmash though, i always had the feeling that itd be too slow. but i can definitely see against some of the slightly laggier attacks like fox and sheiks dash attack that it would have great usage. im not sure how it would fair against falcos dair, i think meteors/spikes in general have too low of an angle to be CCd. which is the reason that u cant CC foxs shine.

Oro i find that i tend to find that i suicide much more often than i should as well. i usually make very risky jumps offstage to try and edge guard haha.

 

[Brikmaethor]

"[F]air power to boot."

That's funny because she hits people with her feet. Hooray for double puns.

 

[-Ran]

I love ZSS's recovery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTzzxaIk8o

For those that didn't realize, Down B can be wall jumped out of at any frame.

 

[G13_Flux]

Lmfao. i honestly didnt i realize i made the second pun

ZSS also definitely has one of the best recoveries in the game. shes right up there with the likes of peach, pit, charizard, DDD, and jiggs in terms of the distance shes able to cover. shes also very safe with it, something a lot of those guys lack, since she has a tether that cant be edge hogged.

 

[Jandlebars]

I love ZSS's recovery.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhTzzxaIk8o

For those that didn't realize, Down B can be wall jumped out of at any frame.

Oh wow, that's actually pretty fantastic. O: