ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[-Ran]

If ZSS had a standard throw, she'd be in the conversation of best character in the game. We've got Down-Smash though, an aerial grab, and a tether grab to severely hamper aerial approaches due to its insane range. Due to this, it's very, very, hard to overspace to a bait against ZSS. If a character intentionally misses an Aerial against ZSS, it should result in one of those options.

Oh, Dair to Spaced Bair on shield, aiming to hit the shield each time, with even a little shield decay, you break the shield.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Is Nair to Grab legit at lower percents? Also, I wasn't aware you could run so fast out of her Blaster, I was wondering why people used it uncharged so much (outside of the time required to charge it) but now I see why. How consistent can you get with dashing before the laser makes a noise? I'm assuming that's the fastest you can dash. And our best options out of the dash? I've been trying grabs on shield but I'm not sure on the data of the shield stun uncharged shots do.

Also, running/jumping offstage and using the second hit of Fair off seems like it's one of ZSS best (only?) gimping tools, and I'm not seeing any from what ZSS footage I'm seeing, I'm probably just overestimating it...

 

[G13_Flux]

well what you do after paralyzer really depends on your opponents reaction. if they stay in their shield, then depending on how you time it, a grab will definitely work. they could also roll, in which case you can either pivot grab or WD backwards/ DD if youre close enough, then follow up likewise. if they jump, a nair/uair/fair will take care of them. or if they roll backwards, then just follow them with a run. its really a very useful and versatile tool.

as far as gimping goes, fair and bair are both great options. up b has its uses too, although a little more situationally. uair is also a situational gimp move just for its coverage really and the fact that it does have a KB angle that keeps them off stage.

 

[dvon21]

Oh, Dair to Spaced Bair on shield, aiming to hit the shield each time, with even a little shield decay, you break the shield.

Bair is such a ridiculous move for shield poking. Properly spaced and with little shield pressure on most characters it's an auto poke.

Having said that, I think up-b's usage in stringing combos hasn't really been covered a lot. Maybe it's been overlooked because of the obvious aerial strings but honestly this move sets up for jab resets, tech chased down smashes, and it also has RIDICULOUS platform pressure. I've found that I love to play on platform stages because ZSS is so strong when underneath her opponent. If you want to tack on that extra percent mid combo when your opponent is above you, throw out an up-b.

Afterwards you're left with a free nair or even wave-landed dsmash. If the opponent is not on a platform above you and you can still string it in then you're able to tech chase wavedash dsmash to whatever. What do you guys think? It's been a long time since I've played smash.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Dsmash is pretty slow starting up, you'd need an intense read to get it in. That said, I think if you picked a side and started up DSmash early enough you wouldn't be too much at a disadvantage.

 

[-Ran]

However, D-Smash's hitbox is MASSIVE on the ground. If you have any pre-read on their attack spacing, you can get a stun in.

 

[dvon21]

I'm really hoping I'm not late on this, but did you guys know if you charge paralyzer to the bare minimum for a fully charged shot and dash cancel right away you can silent paralyzer like falco's and fox's silent laser??! A great tool for the paralyzer and ZSS in general, imo.

EDIT: You can also silent paralyzer uncharged shots.. It may be frame specific though, i dunno...

 

[standardtoaster]

a silent shot means you did the dash cancel frame perfectly

 

[dvon21]

I see, figured as much.

 

[theONEjanitor]

all right i was hating on f-air at first, but now i am using it all the time. its the strongest forward hitting aerial we have of course, but i've found that if you follow DI (which isn't that hard cuz ZSS is so fast) you can get some easy set ups, particularly d-throw->fair and dtilt fair at high percents.

i've also been using uptilt a lot. its risky because you get punished hard if it's shielded, but it is a comboing-machine. at low percents you can force a tech-tech chase (esp on fast fallers), at mid-high percents you can basically follow up with move of choice (including another uptilt).

 

[dvon21]

I agree, at first I couldn't find any uses for it. But I watched someone's video in the video thread (forget who it was, sorry) and they were also doing a lot of rising fh uairs. So I tried the same thing with fair and you can still squeeze in a nair at the end so it's pretty safe for zoning or edge guarding. Also, you can combo off the first hit of fair..

 

[Bryonato]

I really like Fair both as a combo finisher and something to follow up out of dthrow. SHFFL'd Fair also (seems) to be a safe approach option a la CF Nair but I don't see why you wouldn't just use Nair instead you were looking for a mix up.

 

[5-oNe]

I've found that I love to play on platform stages because ZSS is so strong when underneath her opponent. If you want to tack on that extra percent mid combo when your opponent is above you, throw out an up-b.

yeah going off this you can wrack up a ton of damage depending on how well your tech chasing game is. its a whole new type of tech chasing to have them above on the platform and using the up-b. watch how they decide to get up and you can keep them shut down for awhile using the up-b.the best part is her wavedash is perfect for it.they roll right on the platform then you wavedash right and use up-b and vice versa.its easier than trying to dash and use the up-b.also depending on how much they di and how close to the edge they are then they will fall down to u and thats where you can do the jab reset or whatever you fancy.

 

[5-oNe]

also just the jab reset in general.after jab reset you should always down smash(obvious). because from there you can set up any kind of combos you like. if they are in kill percentage then of course fsmash them but besides that i find it the perfect time to either dair or grab(i suggest either dthrow or uthrow) not only do they set up INCREDIBLY for other things but it is usually your best chance to use those moves too because if you decide to use her grab or dair midfight and miss they will and should be punished

 

[5-oNe]

also a move i found interesting to use is the down-b for tech chasing too.you can run to them and scare them into moving and hit down b and follow where they go and give them a nice little kick. its usually a pretty good way of catching people off guard so their di isnt right...the mindgames!

 

[Ima_Ninja_Snack]

I don't know if anyone said anything about the paralyzer then roll if that could combo into something.

 

[FakeKraid]

Turbo Gilman makes heavy use of d-throw into u-smash (which is a guaranteed combo against almost every single character in the game), then follows it with either more running u-smash or up-b depending on opponent DI before closing with an air and either edgeguarding or running away to start the encounter over. It's insanely effective, considering her great ground game (with a grab that can punish any whiffed attack safely, a forward-b that is safe and begins strings, and a low-profile crawl). Basically, Zamus's meta game is this:

1. Get opponent above you
2. Keep opponent above you as long as possible
3. Finish with a KO, gimp, or reset back to 1.

He's got more tricks than that, of course, but I'll wait until he goes back to the competitive scene to talk more about those.

 

[Babatunde]

She can't start her above game without going into her ground game. Which is why I always respect it and approach from the air. (Also cause shielding neutral bs is jus stupid unless you bait the grab) If the opponent does shield it, does Zamus have any mixup options from there? Dair maybe?

 

[Yeroc]

1. Get opponent above you
2. Keep opponent above you as long as possible
3. Finish with a KO, gimp, or reset back to 1.

This is also how you play Marth, incidentally.

 

[Vixen]

dair > immediate WD down.

dair > up b > stuff are the lels.

Sup, I play ZSS now apparently. :V

 

[Oro?!]

Dair->waveland->down angled ftilt has been my favorite kill since 2.5 inception. Welcome to the club Mizuki.

 

[Vixen]

Let's discuss how Uair is ZSS's best move. :3

 

[ph00tbag]

Surprise!​

 

[BILL?]

If you read an opponent dropping down from a ledge, short hop Uair (or Utilt/Usmash to SH Uair) can be a great punish/combo starter.
I'm not sure how well it works at a competitive level against players with better air control and smarter timing, but in serious casual play I love using this to keep them above me for a while, which, as pretty much everyone has said, is exactly where ZSS wants them to be.
Uair is also great for quickly setting up kills with Fair or Bair depending on their DI.

One area I really could use some help with is gimping while off stage (far too many bad trades with marth or ness mains lol) A bit of practice leads me to conclude that I needed to take lower risk gimps/edge kills by staying closer to the stage or on the stage. Bair and Fair then downB or jump back to stage, UpB shenanigans, edge hogging. Or just fsmash or dsmash>fsmash from the stage. These seem to turn out better for ZSS than doing flip kicks and Dairs into the abyss. (so many fails)

 

[Vixen]

i like to run off > dj uair as an edgeguard.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

i love to use upB for gimps offstage, certain characters have strong cancels against it though.

 

[Vixen]

rising uair falling upb is one of my favorite tricks

 

[BILL?]

I've been practicing the offstage techniques that you recommended; I think my ZSS should have a better win/loss when I get back to playing real people after break. Thanks!

 

[ToTs]

Side-B pulls you in,.. but is it possible to DI so that you go up instead, or does it matter where Side-B actually hits you to determine if it pulls them in? I was playing Bowser and sometimes when I would side b expecting to Bair him, he would just goes straight up.

 

[cannedbread]

di away probs

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

if you DI away from Whip it sends you directly up / in front of you depending on %

if you have neutral DI it will usually just send you straight above ZSS

if you DI towards Whip it will send you behind ZSS (sometimes depending on % can be sent too far for reliable kill follow up)

 

[ToTs]

Ah cool now I know, thanks I guess I should really assume all attacks can be DI out of, generally

 

[rhfs]

i love to use upB for gimps offstage, certain characters have strong cancels against it though.

How are you doing this, exactly? Using upB when you recover to hit them? Or jumping offstage and using upB when they are in the air?

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

i'll sometimes literally jump/run off stage when they're stage level or above and up B them.

care not to do it too close to the edge though or it'll just tether you, can work for mix ups with a ledge hp bair, if they expect the up B though.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Side-B --> Uair is pretty guaranteed for most DI, in my experience.

 

[Daftatt]

I find myself only using her first jab as a reset for utilt at low percentages. So if anyone uses the other two jabs please do tell. Her up-tilt can actually juggle spacies at low percent (at least I think it can) but it's dangerous to go in that close to begin with. Fair however I think is under-appreciated, you have to time it for the 2nd hit but it's a good combo ending move, also it looks good.

 

[BILL?]

Utilt chain is a thing and I love it on the fastfallers. even if they DI properly it basically guarantees Utilt>Utilt>Utilt, and can potentially go into an aerial combo.
It also works on Captain Falcon, although it seems that CF can typically escape after the 3rd Utilt with DI. Depends on percent, but 3 is safe.I usually stop at 3 on falcon, and 3 or 4 vs Spacies, since I don't want them to be able to DI onto a platform, Dair me in my end lag, or jump away.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

uptilt with caution, if they shield it or you whiff it, spaces can wreck you pretty quicklike. Dtilt is much more preferred for me, dtilt into nair/upair/whatever i feel like.

 

[BILL?]

Yeah, I forgot to add that Utilt on shield is a pretty terrible situation. Lol it's just asking for a punish with all that endlag. I only use it if I am very sure that I will hit, like close to the level of certainty i consider neccessary to use rest as jiggs. Utilt chain has risks (dair to face is no fun) but decent reward too.
Dtilt is a great move and frankly my preferred tilt, it's so good for ground to air transitions, and it can be done straight out of a crouch cancel or be used instead of dash attack.

 

[ToTs]

Yeah UTilt isnt the fastest attack lol