ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[BILL?]

What move is he using to gimp your tether reel-in?
I have had issues with bowser's before, doing things like bowser downB ledge grab onto my tether, or fortress hogging to force me onstage and then doing things.
It can be an issue vs Ganondorf, Falco, and other characters too, especially on stages where you can't easily edgetech or wall jump and then recover due to the lack of walls under the ledge itself (battlefield etc)

 

[Daftatt]

What move is he using to gimp your tether reel-in?
I have had issues with bowser's before, doing things like bowser downB ledge grab onto my tether, or fortress hogging to force me onstage and then doing things.
It can be an issue vs Ganondorf, Falco, and other characters too, especially on stages where you can't easily edgetech or wall jump and then recover due to the lack of walls under the ledge itself (battlefield etc)

freaking bair

 

[Oro?!]

Bowser fair is 100% guaranteed vs tether reel as well, and will kill you cross stage at around 130% on some smaller stages.

 

[Daftatt]

Bowser fair is 100% guaranteed vs tether reel as well, and will kill you cross stage at around 130% on some smaller stages.

Do I have to laser and pray it hits bowser on his way out to edgeguard?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I did Stun offstage -> jump down -> up-b (so it hits them and not tether) kill -> jump onstage. Just once and wasn't able to repeat it (because up-b normally tethers). Does anybody how that one works?

 

[Oro?!]

Do I have to laser and pray it hits bowser on his way out to edgeguard?

Oh, I was saying if you tether while bowser is on the ledge, then he will be able to fair you no matter what you do. There are a lot of ways for it to not get that point though.

 

[Daftatt]

I did Stun offstage -> jump down -> up-b (so it hits them and not tether) kill -> jump onstage. Just once and wasn't able to repeat it (because up-b normally tethers). Does anybody how that one works?

it's pretty much if the plasma wire comes out above a certain angle emanating downwards from the ledge, like above a 60 degree south of the ledge angle and the game will not make you tether the ledge.
If that angle doesn't visualize well for you look at this unit circle.

if the origin was the ledge and you are on the left of it, then if your plasma wire comes out below the angle 210 degrees you will tether. That's not an exact number but it's the basic principal of how the game decides to tether. But it gives you a good area of about where the game will tether.

 

[Yeroc]

Actually there's a box attached to ZSS (not unlike the red/blue ledgegrab boxes you see in debug shots of Melee, but bigger) that checks to see if there is a ledge inside of the box, and if there is, it tethers that ledge. For up B, that box is ~4 ZSS's tall and starts at just below hip height. It reaches ~1 bodywidth behind her and ~5 bodywidths in front. A horizontal rectangle of similar proportions (ie: about 3 ZSS's tall and 12 bodywidths wide) is used for side B, but begins about half a bodylength below her feet instead of above them, and you must be facing the ledge to grab with it.

 

[SpiderMad]

Can you get a picture of it @ Yeroc

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Wow thanks guys I will definitely test it again because it seems to be a good conversion on low percent opponents (when f-smash or bair dont kill them).

 

[ph00tbag]

Can you get a picture of it @ Yeroc

 

[Vixen]

http://www.twitch.tv/lycandefe/c/3750619

here have a thing

 

[ph00tbag]

That's some of those Cape Cod potato chips.

 

[Roche_CL]

Hey guys, how do you deal with Pit? I find very hard to avoid the arrows and get an approach, also his dashdance to grab is really easy to do and leads to painfull combos.
Any help will be appreciated :3

 

[Darktega]

Hey guys, I'm a new ZSS user and all that stuff and have been playing around with her a little, if I can help with something I will try. Also, that image can be a paint drawing but it's helpful, lol.

Soooo, if I have to say something useful, well... Try Double Dsmash to UpSmash, it deals about a 39% and setups to UpB UpTilt pillaring. Also, it seems like you can grab out of Double Dsmash at 0% if you're quick enough. Any thoughts on this?

 

[Phuriate]

The only issue with double Down Smash to Up Smash is that they can SDI the Up Smash and potentially punish you for it. Other than that it's pretty good, I'm also liking Down Smash into Down B kick as it seems at low percents it can prop them up for some pretty lovely follow ups and does 24-28%.

 

[Oro?!]

The issue with multiple DSmash setups is when people actively try to mash out of stun. If your opponent just let's you do anything you want to them, then by all means dsmash away.

 

[alandaband]

Does anyone have any suggestions on what to do if edge guarding with DSmash? FSmash's hitbox usually doesn't reach low enough to connect with a stunned opponent in this situation.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Stunstool or back air or dair -> some other aerial

 

[alandaband]

Stunstool or back air or dair -> some other aerial

Thanks! Is it possible to execute the footstool when the opponent is stunned? Or do I have to wait until after they mash out of it?

 

[BILL?]

I use dsmash, then charge the Fsmash and release as they pop out of stun. DI on the pop up is irrelevant if you space properly.
The pop up Fsmash is probably guaranteed, just time it.
Should send them really far offstage with no jump, and they can only escape by SDI in and tech the dsmash, which is not always possible

Bair is also great

 

[BILL?]

Wait until they are out of the stun, it is better.
Or dair>footstool while they are in stun

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah you have to wait first.
Wait there is another option which is quite risky but rewarding. You jump deep off the edge, then jump and immediate up-b so the up-b ledge detection is activated when you don't have the full height yet. The up-b will spike (or meteor, not sure on that one) your opponent and you can go for a down-b -> up-b or direct up-b ASAP to regain the ledge. It is also possible to save the jump if you feel more comfortable doing it that way.

 

[alandaband]

I use dsmash, then charge the Fsmash and release as they pop out of stun. DI on the pop up is irrelevant if you space properly.
The pop up Fsmash is probably guaranteed, just time it.
Should send them really far offstage with no jump, and they can only escape by SDI in and tech the dsmash, which is not always possible

Bair is also great

Did not think about the pop up. Thanks for the tip!

Yeah you have to wait first.
Wait there is another option which is quite risky but rewarding. You jump deep off the edge, then jump and immediate up-b so the up-b ledge detection is activated when you don't have the full height yet. The up-b will spike (or meteor, not sure on that one) your opponent and you can go for a down-b -> up-b or direct up-b ASAP to regain the ledge. It is also possible to save the jump if you feel more comfortable doing it that way.

Interesting. Have you tried this in an actual match? I can see it working in theory but your inputs would have to be pretty fast.
I've also never had much luck gaining any vertical height from down-B to up-B. Any tips on that or is that just a matter of timing.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yes I did it in training mode. Probably its just better to space it that you get the up-b hitbox closer to ZSS so you needn't go down that much. In this case you will reach the ledge again with your jump and don't need the down-b to up-b. That was also the way I performed it.

 

[BILL?]

I have gotten the upB to pull them down, then ZSS herself (not the tether) sweetspots the ledge. I can't do it consistently but I could probably make it reliable if I practice it.
It puts them under the ledge and immediately ramen noodles them.
So much cheese, and stylish too.

Also is upB a spike or meteor? It looks like it sends at a diagonal like a true spike but someone said its meteor cancelable so idk.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

its a meteor most definitely, it was one of my most abused tricks which my smash group have gotten around now.

 

[pinkdeaf1]

I find that using flipstool (Down-B flip jump) to recover helps out against enemies which go deep for their edgeguards, but this only works if you have the option to Down-B onto the stage.

On another note, I like to approach with a paralyzer shot into a grab or a short-hop F-air fast-falled on the second hit into a runaway.

 

[radiogiraffe]

Quick note:
If you are facing the stage and wavebounce her up b it will NOT tether and attack only.
If you wavebounce her up b while facing away it will still tether.

This may be the cause of many sd's and reasons why she doesn't tether sometime.

Be careful not to slam the stick the opposite direction of which way zss is facing right after the up b. Trying to preposition yourself from under the stage to be able to tether is the most common situation that causes the wavebounce. Hold away and up from the ledge to tether with a better position. DO NOT up b then stick away from the stage.

 

[Roche_CL]

Cmon guys, any help on the Pit matchup is appreciated :3

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I would love to see other peoples opinion on D-smash followups:
Obviously:
F-smash if it kills
Bair offstage if it kills
Otherwise offstage stunstool.

I can't really decide between up-air, dair, side-b and up-tilt in other situations.
Probably dair is the weaker choice because if DI'd correctly it leads to one more dair at best and that's it.
Up-air is trying to begin some kind of huge combo, I don't know if it does more than the other options though.
Same goes for side-b, it also leads to aerial combos but is it worth?
Up-tilt with the idea of mixing up-b and up-tilt into huge pillars. I first thought it is also working only on questionable DI but with better mastery of pivot and run-cancel up-tilt I am pretty sure it is very strong. I don't have enough information on the up-b hitboxes (where are my hitbox gifs ) to be really sure but it seems like it could combo until high %s. Also it is the question how to deal with knockdown situations because they might escape, you only have a techchase here.
Better aim for up-hitting box up-b -> up-b spike -> up-tilt or is this no guaranteed followup?

 

[radiogiraffe]

I would love to see other peoples opinion on D-smash followups:
Obviously:
F-smash if it kills
Bair offstage if it kills
Otherwise offstage stunstool.

I can't really decide between up-air, dair, side-b and up-tilt in other situations.
Probably dair is the weaker choice because if DI'd correctly it leads to one more dair at best and that's it.
Up-air is trying to begin some kind of huge combo, I don't know if it does more than the other options though.
Same goes for side-b, it also leads to aerial combos but is it worth?
Up-tilt with the idea of mixing up-b and up-tilt into huge pillars. I first thought it is also working only on questionable DI but with better mastery of pivot and run-cancel up-tilt I am pretty sure it is very strong. I don't have enough information on the up-b hitboxes (where are my hitbox gifs ) to be really sure but it seems like it could combo until high %s. Also it is the question how to deal with knockdown situations because they might escape, you only have a techchase here.
Better aim for up-hitting box up-b -> up-b spike -> up-tilt or is this no guaranteed followup?

With dair you can actually follow up with a down b kick regardless of di. It's a true combo.
Though you can't do it at the lower percentages but it's quite reliable at mid to high percentages on most of the cast.
It's a great tool to use when fair is your only option.
A good set up I like to use a lot that racks up damage is or finish off an opponent:
Down throw>dair (as many times as you want/can)>Down B Kick
Bair has much more knockback than Down B Kick but Down B Kick has a bit more knockback than Fair.

The best part is even when they DI towards the satge you can still knock them off stage because Down B Kick always knocks opponents forward. Meaning you can't get a reverse hit box with that move.

 

[Vixen]

if i dsmash them off stage i've been experimenting with dropzone up b. normally I opt for bair or fsmash depending on where they are when the dsmash connected, what character they are, what stage it is, and what percent they were when I landed dsmash. there's so many options it's ridiculous.

on stage if its a heavy or a fast faller i grab instead of going for an aerial. if its a floatie i go for a low delayed uair so i hit the very bottom of them with the first hitbox of the move. usually leads in to more uairs, nairs, or even a regrab or a dsmash reset if they land and aren't holding shield.

 

[Flareneos43]

Earlier in the thread, I read that you get 8 frames on invincibility when using ZSS's down-b, correct? Well, I wanted to know if you can still get hit on the initiation of the move (like getting hit whilst you press down+b). I was practicing against a Marth, and I would get hit as soon as I use the move, so I was a bit confused. Like, does frame 1 begin when you press down+b, or is it like a little after?
I've never understood the whole frames concept in general, actually. I never did even with brawl. I thought it was pointless for me to get into it frames and study it, yet I feel like it keeps from becoming a better player.

 

[Axrz]

Earlier in the thread, I read that you get 8 frames on invincibility when using ZSS's down-b, correct? Well, I wanted to know if you can still get hit on the initiation of the move (like getting hit whilst you press down+b). I was practicing against a Marth, and I would get hit as soon as I use the move, so I was a bit confused. Like, does frame 1 begin when you press down+b, or is it like a little after?
I've never understood the whole frames concept in general, actually. I never did even with brawl. I thought it was pointless for me to get into it frames and study it, yet I feel like it keeps from becoming a better player.

The invincibility on down-b was removed in a previous patch.

 

[Flareneos43]

Okay, that explains a lot. Haha. I've only gotten PM sorta recently, so I didn't know. Thanks for that!

 

[Flareneos43]

(I'm just now getting back into using smashboardsz so sorry if double posting isn't allowed)

I have a question about ZSS's tether. You know how you're tethering while say, a Bowser, is on the ledge, edgeguarding. Instead of risking extra percent, is it possible to drop out of the tether when a down-b to wall jump off of the stage? Because you can get an aerial out of the wall jump. So now you're safe from being edgeguarded and taking extra percent. And then you can easily regrab the ledge with an up-b (I figure if I can do it on FD, you can do it on any stage). It's just a theory from accidentally doing it in training mode. I don't have anyone to test it on, so if anyone could try it and confirm, that'd be great.

I only thought about it because I've seen several ZSS players go through being edgeguarded, so I figured there was some way around it. Unless it's been tried before and just flat out doesn't work and I didn't know, then sorry. Haha.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

It works but you could get hit in most steps if you fight a character comfortable in the dropzone. Also if you tether too low you can regrab after the walljump but can't hit them. Its a nice mixup, but I would only use it if the punish for just going onstage is huge.

 

[Flareneos43]

I wasn't saying that it was heavily reliable or anything of the such, just something you can mixup here and there against some people. As far as I know, it's never been done before, and I think it can be incorporated. It's not something could expect coming since it's not used often.

That, and using down-b to get back on the stage. I've seen SHFFL n-air, f-air, u-air, etc. to recover, yet they've been punished a lot. Again, I can't try this theory out against anyone, but as long as you're holding B, you'll be safe because of the footstool. So they're forced to block or trade off a hit, which still isn't too bad imo. It's still punishable, I'm sure, but worth a try.