ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[ToTs]

i love to use upB for gimps offstage, certain characters have strong cancels against it though.

I was playing my friend, and when you grab the ledge, you can SH above ledge UP-B and drag them down if they are above you, she grabs the ledge again right after. It was pretty affective the times I did it. I may have a video of it but its to a Lvl 9cpu, ill see if i can find it and make a gif, if you dont know what I'm talking about.

 

[Vixen]

Has anyone started experimenting with the huge boost she gets from jump+up b at the same time? she goes FLYING. Also what about her forward boost from aerial forward B? For those who are interested, her initial jump+up b simultaneously goes higher than falco's initial jump. Is probably the highest initial jump. DJ + up B makes her go high enough to end up in the magnifying glass on most neutral stages.

 

[Daftatt]

Has anyone started experimenting with the huge boost she gets from jump+up b at the same time? she goes FLYING. Also what about her forward boost from aerial forward B? For those who are interested, her initial jump+up b simultaneously goes higher than falco's initial jump. Is probably the highest initial jump. DJ + up B makes her go high enough to end up in the magnifying glass on most neutral stages.

well, you can wavebounce with it. Also I use it to get to the top of say, norfair's upper platform in one jump. On rare occasions you can use it to get an extra boost when trying to snatch someone out of the air way up near the blast line.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

i just the boost jump from up+b constantly to recover, as well as chase very high targets and pull them down to me.

 

[Vixen]

wavebounce is the worst name ever

 

[ph00tbag]

I definitely prefer b-reversal.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

agreed with b-reversal, its more descriptive without being long

 

[Daftatt]

agreed with b-reversal, its more descriptive without being long

that is a better name, I had just never heard of it prior. On all the AT threads people called it wavebounce, Which actually stems from brawl players snidely naming an AT in their game after wavedash as a f*ck you to melee purists.

 

[ph00tbag]

Actually, as I recall, it was from a misguided belief that "ATs" were what made Melee a great game, so every mechanic, no matter how simple it was to perform, or how practical or useful it was, got some really weird name. And people got really caught up in being remembered as the guy who discovered [AT name here]. Fwiw, I don't remember who discovered b-reversals, or DACUS. Most people don't, so a lot of that hysteria was pretty misplaced. To say nothing of the fact that ATs aren't what made Melee so good.

The smashers who played Brawl at E for All made fun of this notion by naming everything they did after the smashers that were present. For instance tripping was known as "ink dropping." On the Brawl ZSS boards, we jokingly named Plasma Wire > uair the "Cake Combo," because someone was calling it the "Claw Combo" after seeing it in Claw's combo video, and DeliciousCake replied that all ZSSes had been using it since pretty much when the game came out, and it was kinda bread and butter at that point, so they might as well name it after him.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

was completely unaware of that side of the brawl community 0.o.

when i played brawl i just played, didn't take any notion of this nonsense. well trained from dealing with the local melee purists i suppose.

 

[ph00tbag]

Back in those days, there wasn't really as much of a divide as there was a year or two into Brawl's lifespan. "Melee purists" were considered a whiny minority, and there was widespread positivity that once Brawl was figured out, it would turn out okay. After a year or so, however, many of the better players had started playing Melee again.

 

[Strong Badam]

As far as I'm aware, a Wavebounce and a B-reverse are two separate entities. A wavebounce is specifically a reverse b-reverse, where you turn around before the special via standard turnaround methods (either Side-Bing behind you or doing the usual reverse-neutral-b) and then b-reversing afterwrad.

 

[ph00tbag]

I think you may actually be right.

Brawl tech, though. :\

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah lol there's some goofy names for Brawl ATs.

 

[Teh-Shlurpie]

Hydroplaning and Shell Shifting come to mind

 

[BILL?]

Actually tho, I will never ***** about her recovery again. UpB and down B have serious anti gimp ability and with good mix ups she easily has one of the best recoveries in PM. (Ex: Lucas main hits me offstage at low%, jumps offstage to spike me, I upB early, pull him down and instantly grab ledge b/c sweetspots lol = dead)

 

[BILL?]

Brawl tech names are odd if you think in melee tech logic.. Wave bounce makes it sound like a brawl equivalent of triangle jump.

 

[Oro?!]

I feel her recovery is actually middle of the road, and that people are bad at edgeguarding her. You are practically forced to downB repeatedly into dangerous positions and wait out the entire duration in order to save your double jump. If you lose your double jump at any point offstage you are basically dead. People will get better at edgeguarding the tether portion as well. If you are hit out of the tether, then that's confirmed death. Sure, you get your downb back, but that means you only have a secondary chance of recovery on Green Hill/Wario Ware/Draculas only. If you do a downB and the peak of it is below the ledge, you are dead without a double jump.

 

[cannedbread]

is dair > footstool guaranteed?

 

[Oro?!]

Nope.

It might combo and be very easy to pull off against larger characters at lower %s though.

 

[BILL?]

Hey at least she's not Or .
It still baffles me that the characters named after birds both fall like bricks and have such short/predictable recoveries.

I actually learned a lot about her recovery mixup from your vids, saved me from attempted spikes a few times with those early tether release tricks and wall jumps.

 

[TimeSmash]

I feel her recovery is actually middle of the road, and that people are bad at edgeguarding her. You are practically forced to downB repeatedly into dangerous positions and wait out the entire duration in order to save your double jump. If you lose your double jump at any point offstage you are basically dead. People will get better at edgeguarding the tether portion as well. If you are hit out of the tether, then that's confirmed death. Sure, you get your downb back, but that means you only have a secondary chance of recovery on Green Hill/Wario Ware/Draculas only. If you do a downB and the peak of it is below the ledge, you are dead without a double jump.

I would just love the chance to act out of Down B quicker...

 

[Oro?!]

I would just love the chance to act out of Down B quicker...

Heh. I don't think that is something that will happen any time soon. Personally I love how all of ZSS' moves have a lot of cooldown and cost associated with using them. It's a very "melee" feel to me believe it or not. Given this isn't Melee, but it's just something that sort of feels good when you use those moves properly.

 

[TimeSmash]

It just screws up my recovery so bad! But I second her, so I'm not as used to her. Her grab game is truly risk reward

 

[jeck95]

I tend to shoot charged stun gun if i'm high and away from the ledge to cover my recovery. Also, if the opponent isn't careful about down b, her "footstool" jump (pressing b during the down b recovery when you are right on the opponent's head) is a good option to get back. Overall, zero suit samus's recovery is really good in pm even though it can be predictable. People are will get used to gimping tether characters soon, then again my practice comes from playing Ryo's roy and he is really good at pressuring, reading his opponents, and understands how tethers work in pm.

 

[Oro?!]

Getting hit out of downB repeatedly I feel will be a bigger detriment in the long run, but people learning how to properly edgeguard tethers won't help her case either.

 

[SpiderMad]

but people learning how to properly edgeguard tethers won't help her case either.

Walk us through the process

 

[BILL?]

You can force ZSS to reel in the tether early by edgehogging and following up with an attack. That's basically how it works. Kinda like edgeguarding sheik, you edgehog her to force her onstage and then you come at her with a strong but fast move (like fox Usmash)

 

[BILL?]

She does have ways around the edgehog that give her a few ok ways around it, but the edgehog still takes away her options and makes her more vulnerable.

 

[Vixen]

IMHO the best way to recover as ZSS is to take the high road as often as humanly possible. Remember she has boostjump.

 

[Demna]

Hey guys, I mained ZSS in Brawl for over a year now and I'd like to main her in PM as well (started PM 3 months ago with Sheik as a main). Any tips on how to play ZSS in PM and what are the best set ups at each situation?

 

[jeck95]

Well Demna, in terms of neutral game, side b is good for spacing and setting up combos. Stun gun is pretty useful because you can move immediately after the shot has been fired. Stun gun is also great for shield pressure and grab mix ups) Down smash is as usual as the one in brawl. Nair is good for combo breaking, shield pressure, combo starter depending on the situation. Uair is great to start juggles and continue them. Dair has great shield pressure, combo starter, but has a start up time so in neutral it is not as good as the other aerials. Bair is awesome for spacing and combo finishers. Fair is similar to Bair except of course 2 hits instead of one. Down B is an extra jump and should be used as the second jump before your actual second jump because down b has a recovery time to act except for doing dive kick (a) and footstool jump (b on top of opponent). You can cancel your down b into jumping so your recovery and air movement is pretty good. Grabs are risky but rewarding becuase down throw and up throw can be used to set up combos. Jab and Utilt are still really quick but punishable. Up b is good for combos and naturally recovery. Side smash is stronger in P.M. than brawl so that is one of your kill moves including bair, fair, uair at very high percents (>140%). Up smash is good combos and anti airs but risky and punishable. Dash attack is good for combos (starting and continuing) but risky.
For movement, be quick and tricky. Be everywhere at once. Be hard to catch for anyone who can't camp you out and for spacies get them off stage at all costs. Learn weights for other characters but it affects what combos you can do. Hope this helps.

 

[Demna]

I appreciate the help; however, I decided not to play ZSS in PM fearing that it will negatively effect my ZSS in Brawl.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Yo boy pinkfresh do it

 

[jeck95]

I appreciate the help; however, I decided not to play ZSS in PM fearing that it will negatively effect my ZSS in Brawl.

Fair enough, I use yoshi in brawl and I decided to not use yoshi in pm/melee because then my brawl yoshi would suffer

 

[Bebop86]

I'm sure this is just old news, and I'm pretty much a noob as far as I'm concerned. But I really love jab resets on ZSS, and with down smash. So like for instance, some stuff I've done at low percents is land a b-forward, follow their DI and down smash accordingly -> grab, up throw -> up-b. At this point if they miss the tech, jab reset -> down smash again into forward smash. She has some of the coolest and most freeing combo game to me.

 

[BILL?]

Has anyone had success using dash attack to hit "over" the edge to knock them offstage and then instantly grab ledge?

I did it vs a wolf in a game for a hilarious, slightly unintended gimp out of a tech chase, I replicated it and still don't get how it works and if it is a viable tactic or just a quirk from bad DI.

(some inherent slipperiness resulting in sliding from the DA, putting her over the edge combined with an immediate pivot input is my best guess ATM)

 

[BILL?]

Upthrow> up-b. At this point if they miss the tech, jab reset -> down smash.

I might be getting confused, but I feel like there is a window to perform a jab reset like barely before they hit the ground. *a bit of directed testing and it seems I was incorrect, it seems that in general they do need to miss a tech, however the jab reset will prevent all non-tech inputs from occurring if done properly (i.e. no get up attacks, no non-tech roll aways, only the jab reset) however, if they had teched (or done anything with a full press of L or R, such as using an unnecessary full press when L-canceling) within the last 40 frames, then they cannot tech, which explains why this had worked in games for me.

Another character that seems to do this is ganondorf: he can dthrow>jab>regrab fastfallers for a while, and it sure feels untechable as a fox in one of those situations at low-mid %. Smash DI up on jab might escape these things though.

 

[Bebop86]

Yeah pretty ridiculous. She has real hype combos :D

 

[Daftatt]

Getting hit out of downB repeatedly I feel will be a bigger detriment in the long run, but people learning how to properly edgeguard tethers won't help her case either.

My friend shadic's Bowser has figured out how to gimp the crap out of my tether reel in. Any tips on avoiding tether gimping with ZSS?

I appreciate the help; however, I decided not to play ZSS in PM fearing that it will negatively effect my ZSS in Brawl.

I did the same for a while... But then brawl died (at least in washington) so I learned her in P:M. Consider a P:M ZSS as a hedge against brawl's die off.