ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[thespymachine]

I dunno I think I might be biased towards a reset based playstyle because already from just playing on my own there's a TON of stuff that's escapable w/ ZSS' combos based on DI + move choice + percentage of opponent. And it's not like ZSS's combos are especially fast or cause the opponent to be helpless or anything IMO (like not Fox/Falco/Marth stupid, lol), so I think the metagame direction for ZSS should be centered on this long term, more solid approach.

As a side note, this is also kind of why I don't like Sethlon's playstyle as much as others might. He's definitely done a lot with the character + has a lot of great strings/combos but I just don't think that in the long run camping for combos/strictly baiting-based strategies are effective for ZSS. All IMO of course. In the event that discussion becomes directed towards this idea of ZSS I will change the title to "ZSS Metagame Thread" to make it less misleading.

This answer went in a few directions but I hope it will bring out some discussion and prove interesting.

I definitely agree with ZSS's stuff not being guaranteed, and we need to focus on the long term. I was trying to express how ZSS has all these moves that have more visual and concrete choices and options than most characters (relating to how you said she doesn't have super fast combos or combos that leave the opponent helpless). This may actually be a flaw in the character, and if many people play with her right away, people will figure her out quick, making it more difficult on ZSS mains pretty quick.
But I think she's just too quick, and has too much to offer to be thrown out of usable tournament characters.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I miss dash attack

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Nair is just simply amazing.

It's Marth's fair, essentially

Nair>nair>nair>resets or more combos, depending on DI

So stupid

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yes her nair is really good, but it isn't so good against characters with lingering hitboxes or multihit moves because of its mechanics.

 

[clowsui]

SFP I miss dash attack too, I get sad when DA -> dsmash doesn't work

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I straight-up don't agree with the dash attack nerf. I think it was to prevent dash attack "locks" but they were easily dealt with, with good SDI and now dash attack doesn't link to anything. I'm not even sure what the point of it is now with dash cancelling dtilt as an option.

It went from being one of the best dash attacks in the series to being like, "oops i dash attacked."

 

[clowsui]

does hope and pray they're di'ing down count as a thing? because if it does then i think we've found a use for dash attack

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well, sometimes in mid percents you can string it to jab.... sometimes.

In brawl I love dash attack to utilt or dtilt. I expected them to change the angle on dash attack because it was a little silly, but the increase in ending lag is confusing. I was hoping to be able to dash attack->uair or fair instead, but yeah, for now I'm just not using the move much.

BTW let's talk about how broken paralyzer dash cancel is... hooo boy.

 

[standardtoaster]

Iirc it had the fastest interrupt time in brawl and we just matched it up to the fastest dash attack interrupt time in melee.

 

[ph00tbag]

I've never really had a problem with Dash attack. Don't try to combo with it at low percents. Go for resets and the like.

Even in vBrawl, this "advantage" worked both ways. Nair never staled, but it never refreshed other moves, either. This is still the case.

It's certainly not enough of an effect to change how I consider using her aerials, since using Dair/Uair 3x in a row is far more consistent than multiple Nairs due to the launch angles. They're also more conducive to getting a different attack out to end the string for the same reason, ultimately coming ahead in damage/kill potential if you land a finisher to the string.

Dair x3 isn't all any more reliable once people learn to DI it properly. Neither, really is Uair. What it comes down to is, when you've been just using uair all game, do you want the guaranteed 10% or not?

 

[clowsui]

BTW let's talk about how broken paralyzer dash cancel is... hooo boy.

i actually think PDC isn't broken because the window for dash cancel is too small. ZSS has a great DD but can't exploit it well enough because the window for paralyzer cancel. like if it was lessened by even 1-2 frames ZSS would immediately become a high tier character imo

 

[Yeroc]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. You can PDC the frame the shot comes out, on both versions.

 

[clowsui]

REALLY? I must be doing it wrong nvm. ZSS broke

edit: Ahh sorry I was being stupid. I think if the CHARGE window for a "stunning" paralyzer shot was reduced by just a little bit (5f? eyeballing it) she'd be insanely good

 

[Dubforce]

To be honest I am still having a LOTof trouble with ZSS. I mean, I want to main her (along with squirtle of course), I really do, but she feels so weird. There are things that are so logical to me that I just DO them, and then they dont work or really aren't worth it. A few examples:

PDC > Grab....This feels way to natural, but after getting a grab...thats it. Maybe its my playstyle but it doesn't feel like it really gets me anywhere, even though it feels like she was MADE to do this.

Dsmash sometimes makes them spaz while moving sideways in the air and they don't actually get stunned. What the?

If you up-b and someone does a normal at the right time it will clink with your grapple, causing you grapple that was ATTACHED TO THE LEDGE to phase through the level and clink with their move. Aka, goodbye zamus. No idea whats up with that but my buddy has figured out the timing and it is practically impossible for me to recover against his marth unless I am way under the stage, something that feels risky due to her fall speed.

Overall, I really like her, I really do. But she feels a bit wonky. I'm going to stick with her, but I'm really hoping for changes.

EDIT: Due to the posts here, I booted vBrawl (weird, right?) and tried her dash attack. Ho boy they made it suck.

 

[thespymachine]

Been messing around today.
With PDC and B-reversal, ZSS mobility and spacing game becomes very unique and fun.
Jump at enemy, whip away from them, b-reversal, and you do a quick glide away from the enemy while whipping at them; jump away from enemy, whip away, b-reversal, and you glide at them while whipping; and the retreat, paralyzer (hold), b-reversal, to [insert mindgames with or without PDC]. Add the the basic retreating and aggressing forward and neutral b's and you've got yourself an interesting spacing game.

[This probably isn't new, but I didn't get that much into Brawl, so B-reversal is new to me. lol]

 

[clowsui]

there's still a stupid dead zone w whip + paralyzer. it's annoying and i wanna know how to fix it lol, that's something we can talk about more later down the line though

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

B-reversal paralyzer is a cornerstone of vbrawl zss, works even better now

 

[leffen]

I played PM in tournament today. Got 2nd to Armada, 3-1 (pit is stupid good, and got buffs, lol). Really dominated him overall with zss amazing combo game (reset based?noob) but I did like 4 0% sds which made me barely lose


shes prob mid/low tho, but since i am amazing at this game people will be screaming for nerfs after I win apex with her and nerf her into oblivion just like lucario. she has some REALLY bad matchups, but shes quite strong against slow chars

 

[Yeroc]

If you up-b and someone does a normal at the right time it will clink with your grapple, causing you grapple that was ATTACHED TO THE LEDGE to phase through the level and clink with their move. Aka, goodbye zamus. No idea whats up with that but my buddy has figured out the timing and it is practically impossible for me to recover against his marth unless I am way under the stage, something that feels risky due to her fall speed.

Can you record a video of this? I've never seen that happen before.

 

[clowsui]

I played PM in tournament today. Got 2nd to Armada, 3-1 (pit is stupid good, and got buffs, lol). Really dominated him overall with zss amazing combo game (reset based?noob) but I did like 4 0% sds which made me barely lose


shes prob mid/low tho, but since i am amazing at this game people will be screaming for nerfs after I win apex with her and nerf her into oblivion just like lucario. she has some REALLY bad matchups, but shes quite strong against slow chars

i'm telling u right now she is a reset based character lol. too much DI garbage against her

good **** at 2nd

also lucario wasn't nerfed that bad

6 things that could easily improve ZSS:
1. decrease paralyzer gun charge time by like 3-5f
2. buff ftilt please
3. fair made usable, move kinda buns right now
4. buff dair a little (make it a wider hitbox), it's a little weird right now lol)
5. decrease dsmash startup by 1-2f. just needs to be a little teensy bit faster
6. restore brawl dash attack or at least buff the dash attack hitstun by a little (

giving all of these to zss would make her a really really really great character with no reduction to her "skillfullness" imo. but idk i haven't played her in tourney yet. once i get top 5 at tournies i'll apply for PMBR

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I called ZSS as a low-mid some time ago, she has a lot of cool stuff but there's too much working against her. Tether grabs are and will always be bad. There will never be a top tier character in smash with a tether grab unless it's just really fast. It isn't going to happen.

I like what the PMBR has done with her overall but I feel a lot of their decisions were silly and too conservative. Strong melee characters are strong because they have a ridiculous number of mechanics and tools and few exploitable weaknesses. ZSS on the other hand folds to any kind of close-range pressure and her anti-shield tools, while better than they were in Brawl probably, are still insanely risky. And she can't kill.

Sorry if this post seems aggressive, but overall I agree with leffen, some of her match-ups are just gonna be baaaad because of inherent limitations that tether characters have. If I had one wish for the future of smash it would be the elimination of tether grabs. They do nothing but hold characters back and exist solely for flavor which just isn't good enough. There's very little depth to them.

My list would be:

1. Tether grab gone, physical grab. Yes, I will keep fighting for this.
2. Paralyzer charges faster
3. Fair needs help linking
4. Kill power needs improved
5. Dair hitboxes are a little small
6. Possible to cancel down-b in the middle without using the kick, for use during recovery.

 

[Translucent]

I like your list Supermodel.

Dair hitboxes are okay for the most part for me though, but bigger would always be better.

I think that she does need more kill moves than just an Fsmash or Bair. I would also love the tether grab to be gone, I always find myself getting punished for missing a grab when I should've easily landed one...

 

[Dante']

I agree with Supermodel's changes.

I don't think tether grabs are bad in general, but ZSS's side-b basically accomplishes the same thing and a normal grab would do wonders for her neutral game.

Even though she has some bad match-ups, I'm going to stay optimistic about her placement on the tier list. She might need a strong secondary character to cover some match-ups, but she will be strong none the less.

Oh and I also encountered the same glitch as Ellondu. I hit mario in free-fall twice with neurtal b, and DDD with down smash while he was jumping in the air. All 3 times they should have they should have been paralyzed, and all 3 times they took only damage with no stun or knockback.

I played PM in tournament today. Got 2nd to Armada, 3-1 (pit is stupid good, and got buffs, lol). Really dominated him overall with zss amazing combo game (reset based?noob) but I did like 4 0% sds which made me barely lose

Do you have any videos of your ZSS? After seeing the work you did with 2.1 Lucario, I'd be very interested in seeing what your pulling off with her.

 

[clowsui]

I called ZSS as a low-mid some time ago, she has a lot of cool stuff but there's too much working against her. Tether grabs are and will always be bad. There will never be a top tier character in smash with a tether grab unless it's just really fast. It isn't going to happen.

I like what the PMBR has done with her overall but I feel a lot of their decisions were silly and too conservative. Strong melee characters are strong because they have a ridiculous number of mechanics and tools and few exploitable weaknesses. ZSS on the other hand folds to any kind of close-range pressure and her anti-shield tools, while better than they were in Brawl probably, are still insanely risky. And she can't kill.

Sorry if this post seems aggressive, but overall I agree with leffen, some of her match-ups are just gonna be baaaad because of inherent limitations that tether characters have. If I had one wish for the future of smash it would be the elimination of tether grabs. They do nothing but hold characters back and exist solely for flavor which just isn't good enough. There's very little depth to them.

My list would be:

1. Tether grab gone, physical grab. Yes, I will keep fighting for this.
2. Paralyzer charges faster
3. Fair needs help linking
4. Kill power needs improved
5. Dair hitboxes are a little small
6. Possible to cancel down-b in the middle without using the kick, for use during recovery.

I could agree with this list. IMO there's nothing wrong inherently with respect to tether grabs it's just you have to give the character a really strong option so that their grab becomes threatening (but it's really hard to create a balanced option in this regard lol). But to the extent that you don't like a tether grab this list is appropriate.

And yeah I've been saying it to all my PM friends, ZSS is def mid or low mid. She loses something ridiculous like 7-3 to Falco or Fox AKA characters that can steam roll her shield. She has no answers to shield pressure and her close range game is BUTT.

 

[Dubforce]

Can you record a video of this? I've never seen that happen before.

I can, but it would be a few weeks. If you want to replicate this before then just to the following:

1: Play on FD, BF, or a stage with a similar ledge area.

2: Up B. You have to be half of the length for the ledge of her full up-b length or less.

3: Have someone with a move that would clink attack while standing about 1 fox WD length back from the edge. Moves that I can verify work: Snakes utilt, marth jab, marth utilt, anyone with a downsmash like peach/squirtle, bowser dtilt, and pit ftilt.

Ill record something as soon as I get the money for a recording device.

 

[`dazrin]

I played PM in tournament today. Got 2nd to Armada, 3-1 (pit is stupid good, and got buffs, lol). Really dominated him overall with zss amazing combo game (reset based?noob) but I did like 4 0% sds which made me barely lose


shes prob mid/low tho, but since i am amazing at this game people will be screaming for nerfs after I win apex with her and nerf her into oblivion just like lucario. she has some REALLY bad matchups, but shes quite strong against slow chars

(Slightly offtopic) Curious- Where are the results?

 

[clowsui]

it was like a 4-5 day SF/tourney thing lol. it's called beauty. not many of the beauty tournaments have had results posted IIRC

 

[Snips]

I agree that Fair may need a little further refining to make it link more reliably into that last hit for finishing combos. As it stands it is still miles better than in vBrawl. Also, Uair doesn't feel quite as potent as it used to but maybe that is just me.

Overall she has great movement and combo tools but she lacks reliable finishers outside of Bair and Fsmash, which require specific setups. She is comparable to 2.1 Sonic in this regard (though not nearly as bad off).

A minor thing, but as far as Ftilt goes- perhaps more damage/KB at the tip of her foot? This would encourage spacing it and give you a reason to use it over Dtilt in some cases. That being said, Dtilt is amazing and would probably still be a better option because of the silly things you can do off of it, lulz.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is it just me, or can the paralyzer shot not be released at certain times while charging? Like if you get close to full charge, you have to wait for the full thing before release it. I find that a little silly for a move that's meant to be mostly uncommitted once startup is done. Would be a nice little refinement to have her able to release the charge at any time (even if you were to only get full paralyzer shot if you wait for the full thing). Also a little weird that she can't dash out of it backwards, considering how DDing works in this game: dash-startup has always had complete freedom with regards to canceling into the opposite dash, so an attack that cancels into a dash seems like it should be able to do the same. Idk I think Zamus is on the right track but could use a bit of refinement. A real grab would nice too, tbh, even if we had to nerf her throws from being godlike... Unless we could make her tether grab like, almost as fast a real grab, but like, 2-3 frames slower, which is actually a big difference and would still make it bad in some situations but it wouldn't require like, a brain dead or stunned opponent to get a grab...

 

[Wavebuster]

Oh and I also encountered the same glitch as Ellondu. I hit mario in free-fall twice with neurtal b, and DDD with down smash while he was jumping in the air. All 3 times they should have they should have been paralyzed, and all 3 times they took only damage with no stun or knockback.

This isn't actually a glitch, but an infinite prevention mechanic present even in vBrawl against chain Paralysis. A fighter can only be paralyzed once per aerial instance. The moment someone is paralyzd by Dsmash, even if they were on the ground when hit, they are "airborne" and comboing directly out of it will render them unable to be paralyzed again until they land.

With that out of the way, if I had to pick one move of ZSS in need of some help, that would be her DA. The low IASA seemed to be the only thing forgiving its otherwise really low KB.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I could agree with this list. IMO there's nothing wrong inherently with respect to tether grabs it's just you have to give the character a really strong option so that their grab becomes threatening (but it's really hard to create a balanced option in this regard lol).

It's called a zair, something ZSS (uniquely to tether grabbers, btw) lacks.

ZSS has never been a good candidate for a tether grab. She doesn't have a zair, she doesn't have a good projectile game, and so on. A nice zair or a nice physical grab would do the trick, but for whatever reason, every single Brawl hack project has been really into the idea of keeping this huge character flaw in-tact, going so far as to design entirely around it just to make sure it doesn't screw her over completely, when it almost certainly always will without turning her into Link or Samus, who by the way have not usually been that great in Smash either. PM Link might be the best tether grabber ever in Smash.

I see ZSS having a tether grab the way melee players see brawl ledge snapping, a well-intented design decision that has never really worked well and has caused way more trouble than it's worth.

On the PM forums a while back ph00tbag mentioned early build tests on ZSS included a physical grab but it made her tech chase game too strong, but I mean, this is Melee, a game where ultra-fast birds and foxes have a frame 1 shieldbreak (lol) and Sheik can kill you with a fair at like 60% unless you're Pikachu. ZSS could have a physical grab and a command grab and Shine and probably would still lose to like, Falco.

 

[thespymachine]

1. Tether grab gone, physical grab. Yes, I will keep fighting for this.
2. Paralyzer charges faster
3. Fair needs help linking
4. Kill power needs improved
5. Dair hitboxes are a little small
6. Possible to cancel down-b in the middle without using the kick, for use during recovery.

This, plus give her a zair that can tether.


We should post this in the feedback topic.

 

[ph00tbag]

What I said was that making all of her grabs physical didn't improve her grab game because it was her only close-range option, so closing the gap for an offensive grab still telegraphed your intentions, and all one had to do was roll away. It was having a combination of the two options that was too strong.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Well, ZSS has dtilt, jab, and dash attack (lol), so she might still want to do other stuff if she's running at you. Rolling away covers all of that but dash attack, but come on, how many characters aren't telegraphed in the same way when they dash up to your face?

It still forces them to do something other than sit in shield. lol

 

[drsusredfish]

2. buff ftilt please

don't know if most people know but ZSS aimed ftilts have different kb/damage values: df-tilt more specifically. (diagonal down f-tilt) isn't all that bad at killing. df-tilt can KO snake like a full 50% erlier than plain f-tilt. Granted its still in the 140% range. but 140% better than 190%. at 140% if he desn't die he's in good position for a dive kick or dsmash>fsmash. df-tilt is even worse for characters with bad recoveries or are light.

 

[`dazrin]

IMO- people need to stop asking for specific "nerfs/buffs" and treat this game like it's the final release. We aren't going to get anywhere if no one actually develops her metagame (ironic, since this is a metagame discussion thread) and just asks for changes instead. The next public demo won't be out for a verrrry long time, so I suggest less "buff x pls" and more "what are some uses for x move?" or "how do i deal with x mu?".

Just my opinion.

 

[Dubforce]

IMO- people need to stop asking for specific "nerfs/buffs" and treat this game like it's the final release. We aren't going to get anywhere if no one actually develops her metagame (ironic, since this is a metagame discussion thread) and just asks for changes instead. The next public demo won't be out for a verrrry long time, so I suggest less "buff x pls" and more "what are some uses for x move?" or "how do i deal with x mu?".

Just my opinion.

What? Thats preposterous!

Well I hate to be that guy, I really do.

Do I like her tether grab? No. Does it make sense with her character? Yes. Therefore, even though I do not like it, do I want to see it removed? No. Do I think it should be less punishable? No.

I am getting sick of the complaints of killing power though. Fsmash, uair, bair, utilt, sometimes fair. Her problem isn't killing power, its gimping power. Think about marth. He is a ton more viable the ZSS. But why? How many "kill moves" does marth even have? Fsmash, neutral b, dair, utilt. Forgive me if I am wrong, but thats a SMALLER list. So why is marth so much better? he can gimp. His fair can carry *****es offstage for days. He has a spike. I mean, think about the real issues here.

ZSS has great linkers. She has great mobility. She has decent kill power. If we can just figure out some solid approach options and ways to gimp with her, she will easily be much better. She can already combo like a maniac.

 

[clowsui]

i mean i'm content to play her still LOL i'm j/s

 

[SpiderMad]

The next public demo won't be out for a verrrry long time

Idk, I have this feeling that there will be a 2.6 for a few changes. How long is a verrry long time to you?

 

[drsusredfish]

at least 6 months unless some game breaking bug is found.