ZSS Metagame Discussion/Current Focus: Basic Combos + Setups

[DrinkingFood]

I don't think 2.0 had any game breaking bugs, yet 2.1 was released.

 

[thespymachine]

IMO- people need to stop asking for specific "nerfs/buffs" and treat this game like it's the final release. We aren't going to get anywhere if no one actually develops her metagame (ironic, since this is a metagame discussion thread) and just asks for changes instead. The next public demo won't be out for a verrrry long time, so I suggest less "buff x pls" and more "what are some uses for x move?" or "how do i deal with x mu?".

Just my opinion.

And a great opinion it is.

I was getting caught up in the fact that PM is on-going (for now), and focused my attention on what I felt needed improving. I agree that our goal is the advancement and understanding of the ZSS metagame, but I don't think most of us are going to stop playing ZSS if those developing PM don't listen to our wishes. I mean, I plan on playing both Samus characters regardless of how good/bad they are.

 

[clowsui]

With that being said let's get to working on some basic combos and setups. Stuff we think every zss should know

 

[thespymachine]

Just some stuff
- Paralyzer and Dsmash can now be 'mashed' out of, like grabs.
- The DI angles of Whip, and what can be done with each [this would have to be discussed, because I can't name everything] (question: can Zss reach some/all/any characters with a (pivot) dsmash when they DI the whip toward her?)
- UpB techchasing feels a lot like Shiek d-throw techchasing on fastfallers (just without the awesome grab)
- Nair is amazing
- PDC is legit
- etc, etc

[Edit: changed question]

 

[Dubforce]

- The DI angles of Whip, and what can be done with each [this would have to be discussed, because I can't name everything] (question: can Zss reach some/all/any characters with a [reverse] pivot dsmash when they DI the whip away from her?)

What do you mean?

 

[clowsui]

What happens when opponent DIs up
Away
Toward
Down

 

[ph00tbag]

When they DI up and away from ZSS, you can usually get uairs/upbs/nairs/bairs fairs based on percent.

With no DI you can do just about anything. You can grab, uair, fair, bair, fsmash, probably dsmash, nair, what have you.

Depending on percent, DI down and toward ZSS can probably lead to dtilts and dash attacks. It would also set up tech chases in some situations.

Amsah teching Plasma Whip can usually be followed up with a tech chase, although it may require some hard reads for some characters.

It's worth noting that Plasma Whip usually sets up for an easy bair at percents where bair will guarantee a KO.

 

[drsusredfish]

I don't think 2.0 had any game breaking bugs, yet 2.1 was released.

lol you didn't see the bug reports for 2.0 did you. some of the bugs i remember were things like sonics side b keeping invincibility through out the whole move and ness being able to float infinatly to the top of the screen. those are game breaking i must say.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Some one should start a video thread.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Oh right forgot about the sonic one. Didn't that ness one have to do with items though?

 

[Lunais]

Is her down-B suppose to have some sort of invincibility in its 1st frames? Happened a few times on contact.

 

[drsusredfish]

Oh right forgot about the sonic one. Didn't that ness one have to do with items though?

turnip = item

Is her down-B suppose to have some sort of invincibility in its 1st frames? Happened a few times on contact.

yeah 5 frames of invincibility

 

[leffen]

With that being said let's get to working on some basic combos and setups. Stuff we think every zss should know

u are such a brawl player

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

I find myself wishing ZSS had a bigger reverse bair hitbox (if there is one there at all?).

I think if she has this little change, her kill potential would increase as we could end combos off stage with a more powerful aerial than fair/nair/uair. Is this unreasonable?

 

[Lunais]

I find myself wishing ZSS had a bigger reverse bair hitbox (if there is one there at all?).

I think if she has this little change, her kill potential would increase as we could end combos off stage with a more powerful aerial than fair/nair/uair. Is this unreasonable?

I would not see why not but isn't her sweet spot at the end of her foot? It gets weaker the closer it is, so reversed?

 

[thespymachine]

I would not see why not but isn't her sweet spot at the end of her foot? It gets weaker the closer it is, so reversed?

Yeah, sweetspot at the end of her foot - 13% compared to 10% with a weak bair.

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

Ah okay, for some reason I never registered this consciously. Makes sense that there will be no strong reverse bair in that case.

 

[thespymachine]

Yeah, the positions that a strong reverse bair would work in are situations that we need to figure out what is best to use. Depending, it could be uair, fair, nair, fsmash.

Honestly, I really like her fair and fsmash - though the fair seems it's going to be only situationally useful (like Fox's uair) due to the two hits. I can see it being used as a string move, with the first hit, after nair gets too much knockback, and being used like how Dr.PeePee uses Falco's fair. Or even just a multiple hit on shields.

Fsmash just has so much range, and kills so much better than it did in Brawl, that it might end up being her KO move. Pivot and dash-cancelling fsmashes ftw!

 

[clowsui]

Leffen's ZSS is extremely good.

twitch.tv/internetexplorer6 in the archives

 

[cannedbread]

cool comboes but SO MANY WHIFFED GRABS SO MANY SDS

also is there a reason to not dsmash again after a dsmash hitconfirm because that's like free damage

 

[Lunais]

I know Armada does not play PM but its still Armada. Did that little showcase of Leffen's ZSS change anyone's perception on how good ZSS may be? I am referring to that tier list speculation thread.

 

[Tmacc]

My favorite thing about ZSS is that everything about her is so, so "on the fly." Basically, the way I see her, she has ways to start combos, but no "set" combos. Basically, DCP, over b, etc are the core of her game. From there, it's really based on making read of people's DI and punishing habits.

A few things that I've found to go well are DCP, nair, dtilt, then you can dsmash, fair, or nair again basically whatever works. The core that I've found consistant is DCP, nair, dtilt.

Jab to dtilt.

Dair combos into itself.

Another fun thing is upb to jab reset if they miss the tech.

I REALLY wish ZSS had a tether like Link, TL, Lucas that she could air dodge into. I think it's a huge disadvantage not being able to air dodge before her tether. That being said, I SD SOSOOSOSOSOSOSSO much with her. I'm trying to learn where her upb will tether, but sometimes I'm surprised at how unresponsive it is...

Anyways, overall, I love this character so far. She is incredibly fun, I think she will be about the middle of the tiers.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah everyone SDs a lot with ZSS. It's because her down-b doesn't snap the ledge until super late in the animation and she can't cancel it. Also, her tether seems to like... randomly not work when it should. Not sure what that's about.

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

This is what I have learned about ZSS's tehter:

UpB won't grab on when you have a lot of speed away from the ledge, an example is if you wall jump up B it doesn't work, however a sideB in this case will.

If you are under a ledge, such as final destination and try to upB, zss seems to try and tether the ledge but then fails. Not sure about this one but to get around it I tend to try and upB directly below the ledge or further away.

Also if you press upB or sideB too late, since the moves have a slight start up lag, if you press it when you are just in range but still moving away from the ledge, by the time the tether comes out it you are out of range and will SD.

I seem to be fine with downB to the ledge. The timing for me works as follows: you can snap to ledge after you have done a full arc from the downB, so when you return to the height you used the move at, you will grab on.

Hope this helps or maybe everyone knows this and just needs getting used to it xD

 

[FoosJr]

also is there a reason to not dsmash again after a dsmash hitconfirm because that's like free damage

Yeah, because you can mash out of the stun now, 2 down smashes to w/e isn't guaranteed.

 

[Lunais]

Yeah, because you can mash out of the stun now, 2 down smashes to w/e isn't guaranteed.

Is mashing out of ZSS D-smash good enough that you cant combo out it? That would be terrible.

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

Is mashing out of ZSS D-smash good enough that you cant combo out it? That would be terrible.

No, its just good enough to be able to escape if you try and fit in another down smash before following up.

 

[Shadic]

shes prob mid/low tho, but since i am amazing at this game people will be screaming for nerfs after I win apex with her and nerf her into oblivion just like lucario. she has some REALLY bad matchups, but shes quite strong against slow chars

Yeah, we gotta nerf her. We can't have her be JC 4stocked by characters like ROB - They gotta be JV 5-stocking her.

 

[drsusredfish]

What are you doing out of your Wizards Tower? Is Alakadoof's clone army ready yet?

 

[G13_Flux]

Occasionally i wavebounce with zero suits up b in the direction that i dont want her to move, which messes me up.

Overall, i find ZSS to be a very good neutral character. she has aspects about her that may make her want to play defensively in many MUs, but she can also apply pressure very well. a good mix between the two is key. I think as it is she has qualities that can make her top teir. her biggest weakness is definitely her lack of kill moves outside of fsmash. she does have bair and fair, but unless ur edge guarding with them then its hard to kill with them.

zero suits biggest ability in my opinion is her ability to control the pace of the match and dominate space on the stage. With this, i do agreee with the notion that she is a reset based character, despite her having combos. She works by keeping the opponent locked in defensive states, and this is complimented by her range and speed. Zero suit isnt going to zero-death anybody like wolf, marth, or CF might do on occasion, she is going to knit pick combos here and there that result from taking advantage of an opponents position relative to her. If their position in neutral, than zero suit can apply pressure via spaced attacks and her quick jabs and tilts to force them into a defensive position. She is largely based on momentum with this form of playstyle, and fails when she cannot position herself properly to take control of the stage, or if she succombs to opponents baits for overly offensive play.

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

Occasionally i wavebounce with zero suits up b in the direction that i dont want her to move, which messes me up.

Overall, i find ZSS to be a very good neutral character. she has aspects about her that may make her want to play defensively in many MUs, but she can also apply pressure very well. a good mix between the two is key. I think as it is she has qualities that can make her top teir. her biggest weakness is definitely her lack of kill moves outside of fsmash. she does have bair and fair, but unless ur edge guarding with them then its hard to kill with them.

zero suits biggest ability in my opinion is her ability to control the pace of the match and dominate space on the stage. With this, i do agreee with the notion that she is a reset based character, despite her having combos. She works by keeping the opponent locked in defensive states, and this is complimented by her range and speed. Zero suit isnt going to zero-death anybody like wolf, marth, or CF might do on occasion, she is going to knit pick combos here and there that result from taking advantage of an opponents position relative to her. If their position in neutral, than zero suit can apply pressure via spaced attacks and her quick jabs and tilts to force them into a defensive position. She is largely based on momentum with this form of playstyle, and fails when she cannot position herself properly to take control of the stage, or if she succombs to opponents baits for overly offensive play.

Nice insight. I find it hard to set the pace vs Diddy however. Find it really difficult since he is so small and getting something started on him is quite difficult. Any have experience in this?

 

[G13_Flux]

yes haha i actually do. The thing about diddy is that he does exactly what she does (he can play offensive or defensive depending on the MU) except he does it better. Diddy might lose to extremely offensive characters, as he wouldnt even have time to pull a banana (which is where i think his worst MUs will come from characters like spacies, lucas, ness, lucario, pit and charizard), but against someone of a similar playstyle to him, its gonna come down to who can hold favorable position the longest. Diddys bananas are definitely game breaking in this MU, because now, ZSS must play in by reacting to diddys moves. If ZSS tries to take control of the stage and set the pace, she is going to be badly outcapmed by a diddy with better projectiles, and he has all the speed and mobility to get right in on you and force you into a defensive position. she cant use her range and projectiles to take a defensive stance because diddy will out camp her and create an opponening easily. she cant play too offensive though, because she doesnt quite have the pressure options to absolutely overwhelm diddy, and thus his good OOS and bananas (which can swing towards helping offensively or defensively, but in my experience favor offesnive) will prevent her from dominating him. Both of them IMO suffer from the same major weakness, and that is that they are hard to kill with. Both have good recovery, so edguarding is going to be hard (easier for ZSS, but she has few moves with the priority to take on diddys up b), so my guess is that this is going to be a very slow match. They are really similar characters in all honesty, but diddys stage control options prevent ZSS from taking control of the match. I would make a good guess and say this will disadvantageous towards Zero suit. more than slightly disadvantageous, but not unwinnable.

 

[ShiftingShadows28]

Yeah I have a lot of similar views to this (although dont have time atm to put them down lol). I do feel like getting outcamped was a major factor and it is in favour of diddy. I feel like zss can't afford to do any charged neutral B lasers in neutral positions since diddy will usually have some sort of banana ready for you and if he just trades banana hit for charged laser hit then he gets the positional advantage due to banana knockback.

Good insights.

 

[G13_Flux]

thanks haha. ive got a good amount of zero suit experience. i wanted to player her a lot when 2.5 first came out, but she felt awkward to me at first for some reason. but then she grew on me a lot and i developed the mindset to play her. granted this has all happened in little more than 2 weeks, but when theres nothing to do on winter breaks theres nothing better to do really than to refine your smash skills XD.

 

[FoosJr]

So I sat down and played a bunch of pm this weekend, found out some good set ups with zss.

This doesn't work on fast fallers at low percents and probably wont work on really floaty characters (haven't tried it on them yet) but against bowser, toon link, rob, & some others it was an easy 0 to 40+ dmg combo. Up throw -> Up smash -> Up B -> tech chase down smash (yes its fast enough to react with) -> regrab -> Up throw -> Up air. That's as far as I've worked it out for now, this was against other people trying to DI out of it too. You might be able to get a few D airs after the second up throw try it out though worked really well for me.

 

[MegaGuy]

In my preliminary play with her recently, a decent string I've found is D-smash-> D-air-> Dair (not sure if the second Dair is SDI-able, will do further testing)-> Nair. I know for a fact it works on Snake starting at 45%-ish, and does about 40% I've really been enjoying her in my search to find a main for P:M

 

[G13_Flux]

dair is SDI able. most of them time, its hard to connect two dairs for this reason, but u can usually connect with something, like a bair fair or nair. nair is my usual choice after a dair, just cuz it leads to other strings. use bair or fair for the kill.

 

[EmuKiller]

I really like ZSS but my big issue with her is punishing missed techs. Her jab doesn't really consistently reach characters after a prat fall and I was wondering what options people use when someone misses a tech, since right now the only fast move that hits that low is dash attack.

 

[thespymachine]

Has anyone tried using Up-B out of shield when being shield-pressured? Does it work?

I really like ZSS but my big issue with her is punishing missed techs. Her jab doesn't really consistently reach characters after a prat fall and I was wondering what options people use when someone misses a tech, since right now the only fast move that hits that low is dash attack.

Missed tech-in-place: up-b(?)
Other missed techs could probably be covered with side-b.

 

[G13_Flux]

up B OOS is horribly un reliable and will only work will if your punishing an aerial above you, maybe not even then. up smash on the other hand has a much bigger hit box and can easily suck up people like DDD DK Bowser ganon snake ike, and most of the taller characters, even if they are next to u.

as far as missed techs, just be patient. my reccomendation is to do a quick short WD back (where u angle more vertically to get a shorter WD) and wait for reaction. if they roll back, side b them. if they attack, grab or nair them. if they roll behind you, pretty much do whatever haha. dtilt works very well too. u dont always have to jab reset them.